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Exactly WHY is the Giants offense so bad?

rich79 : 11/30/2017 4:13 pm
We've all heard the usual reasons - the injuries, bad OL, Eli degrading, lack of a run game, etc. Some have merit, some not so much (it was bad before the injuries).

I'd like to see some discussion of the play design itself. For example, my anecdotal view is that it seems that Giant receivers are rarely ever open - ie, it usually takes a very tight, perfect throw to get a completion. When I watch the Packers (before Rogers injury), Jordie Nelson seems wide open on every play! The same thing often applies with Brady's receivers. I admit this is just my perception - I don't have access to the tapes.

Besides lack of guile in the play design, another possibility is bad execution of fakes. In support of this is that we rarely can execute a successful screen play.

What do other people think. Does anyone agree with my basic assumptions that perfect throws are more often required for these passing plays?
the scheme SUCKS. That's why GB w/o Rodgers looks just like the Giants  
Victor in CT : 11/30/2017 4:16 pm : link
bad fakes? Eli is a master at play action fakes. Except they have no runing game to respect anymore.
Banks FAN  
idiotsavant : 11/30/2017 4:19 pm : link
Said. It's a system and has a narrow margin of error.

I agree. Narrow margin of error.

Very poorly designed and considered.

Line not staffed right for this.

WR injuries. But those often result for poor line play.
I won't say the scheme sucks since we were succesful in it for 2 years  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 11/30/2017 4:19 pm : link
and it has been successful before under Rogers in GB, Kansas City with Alex Smith, and more importantly Donovan McNabb & Wentz in Philly.

What do all these guys have that Eli doesn't? They are mobile to a certain extent. Which is why they can get away with a subpar line.
From  
idiotsavant : 11/30/2017 4:20 pm : link
Result from
Combination of a lot of things...  
EricJ : 11/30/2017 4:21 pm : link
1. OL
2. Play calling - too predictable. Easy to defend. Wrong plays for the situation (4 yrd pass when we need 8)
3. Not creating mismatches that favor us
4. Allowing the defense to dictate the terms at the line forcing Eli to check out of the play
5. Eli's accuracy
6. Eli's lack of mobility makes it easier to defend us.
7. Dropped passes
8. Poor route running. Not crisp. Too many rounded off routes make it easy to defend. Cruz was a great route runner which helped to create separation for him.
9. Not using our players skills to our benefit. Engram should be streaking across the field dragging LBs with him. Even when Gilbride was here and we had Shockey. He was faster than the LBs. We would have him run 6-8 yards, turn around and stop. Now... anyone can cover him.
10...I got nothing else but an even "10" made sense
RE: I won't say the scheme sucks since we were succesful in it for 2 years  
Victor in CT : 11/30/2017 4:23 pm : link
In comment 13715134 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
and it has been successful before under Rogers in GB, Kansas City with Alex Smith, and more importantly Donovan McNabb & Wentz in Philly.

What do all these guys have that Eli doesn't? They are mobile to a certain extent. Which is why they can get away with a subpar line.


not quite true. when McAdumb was OC, the offense was more of a TC/BM hybrid
Run they same 10 plays every week  
averagejoe : 11/30/2017 4:23 pm : link
Pretty sure the NFL has caught up to the brilliant McAdoo schemes. The ball has to come out quick because OL is terrible. The defense knows this too so they jump the short routes. Everyone on the defense is close to the LOS because Giants can't stretch the field.

I bet the defense and DC laugh out loud preparing to play Giants. Nothing at all to worry about.
You can't diminish how much a bad OL  
Section331 : 11/30/2017 4:24 pm : link
holds an offense back, but I do think the play design and scheme is poor. In his tenure, the Giants have had, with the exception of 3 games of Brandon Marshall, smaller WR's; yet McAdoo does very little to help them get open. Very little motion (which not only helps smaller WR's get a free release at the LOS, but also helps the QB identify the coverage schemes), very few bunch formations, very few rub routes.

He uses very basic pattern matches, usually sending receivers to different levels at the same side of the defense. That works in college, but NFL defenses pick it up pretty quickly. We've seen a number of defensive players say that they knew what the Giants were running before the snap, that is an indictment of an unimaginative offense.

His protection schemes suck. As was posted earlier this week, Wheeler is starting his first game at RT, and McAdoo sent no help his way when lined up against Ryan Kerrigan.
RE: RE: I won't say the scheme sucks since we were succesful in it for 2 years  
Section331 : 11/30/2017 4:26 pm : link
In comment 13715143 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13715134 BigBlueDownTheShore said:


Quote:


and it has been successful before under Rogers in GB, Kansas City with Alex Smith, and more importantly Donovan McNabb & Wentz in Philly.

What do all these guys have that Eli doesn't? They are mobile to a certain extent. Which is why they can get away with a subpar line.



not quite true. when McAdumb was OC, the offense was more of a TC/BM hybrid


Exactly. They didn't entirely get rid of the route options TC liked, even if they simplified it somewhat. I think McCarthy's offensive scheme is better than McAdoo's but it also helps to have Aaron Rodgers at QB.
Marshall  
rich79 : 11/30/2017 4:27 pm : link
Speaking of Brandon Marshall - I know most people consider signing him a failure and that he should not be back next year. From what I saw, the scheme never even tried to use him properly in the 3 games (was it only 3?) he played. It seemed like we'd go an entire first half and never throw the ball at him.
sounds trite, but it's everything  
GiantNatty : 11/30/2017 4:28 pm : link
One play it's the line, the next play the QB throws an easy and wide-open screen pass over the receiver's head, the next play the line is fine and throw is good but the receiver drops the ball, the next play is a throw at a wide-open receiver's feet, and so on. A total team dysfunction.

For better or worse, it falls on the QB. He's in charge of getting everyone on the same page. He sets the tone and the pace for running a functional offense. He is supposed to be the horse that brings all the other horses in line. He's supposed to be the one to give them momentum and confidence. It just wasn't happening and for too long now.

I don't think that either of the remaining QBs on the roster are the answer and with nothing left to play for, it's hard to imagine any QB in the league could marshal this offense together at this point. But until this point, a lot of the criticism Eli has received is not unfair. (This is not to say I would have done what the Giants chose to do - I would not have).
RE: Combination of a lot of things...  
Elisthebest : 11/30/2017 4:28 pm : link
In comment 13715139 EricJ said:
Quote:
1. OL
2. Play calling - too predictable. Easy to defend. Wrong plays for the situation (4 yrd pass when we need 8)
3. Not creating mismatches that favor us
4. Allowing the defense to dictate the terms at the line forcing Eli to check out of the play
5. Eli's accuracy
6. Eli's lack of mobility makes it easier to defend us.
7. Dropped passes
8. Poor route running. Not crisp. Too many rounded off routes make it easy to defend. Cruz was a great route runner which helped to create separation for him.
9. Not using our players skills to our benefit. Engram should be streaking across the field dragging LBs with him. Even when Gilbride was here and we had Shockey. He was faster than the LBs. We would have him run 6-8 yards, turn around and stop. Now... anyone can cover him.
10...I got nothing else but an even "10" made sense

I'm thinking you could just use #7 and #8. And somehow Cruz lost his superior route running after he got hurt (and maybe just before). No offense to him but Roger Lewis can't be your #1 target.
In short  
OC2.0 : 11/30/2017 4:36 pm : link
McAdoo. Have fun in ur next job.
Last year  
NoPeanutz : 11/30/2017 4:45 pm : link
while the talent whithered on the vine, they offense came out with the same personnel on 9/10 plays. By the third game, there was no catching teams off guard. Remember, Larry Donnell was the starting tight end last year.
This year, when they brought in talented TEs, the offense continued to fail to move the ball, due to moronic play calling (look at TOP when Benny was calling the plays), and by week 6, they had basically already lost 4 WRs for the season.
RE: Marshall  
BigBlueinChicago : 11/30/2017 4:56 pm : link
In comment 13715153 rich79 said:
Quote:
Speaking of Brandon Marshall - I know most people consider signing him a failure and that he should not be back next year. From what I saw, the scheme never even tried to use him properly in the 3 games (was it only 3?) he played. It seemed like we'd go an entire first half and never throw the ball at him.


Marshall was a mismatch for the system itself in the same way Randle was.

It appeared as if Marshall, because of his own height/weight, takes a little longer to get into his routes than what the offense is/was designed for.

Marshall's skill set appears to be best utilized on longer timing patterns where he gets a deeper (say 9 to 15 yards) in his routes. Well, to do that, the QB has to hold the ball a little longer, the o-line has to protect, and then he has to get to his spot. He was not going to be a guy who was going to catch 5 yard slant patterns and take it up field for extra yardage.

If you want a guy like that, go get Crowder from the Skins, Cobb from the Packers, or Landry from the Dolphins. Those guys can work in the play designs the Giants were running.

But then a combination of the play designs, o-line sucking and Eli getting the ball out fast, that took away from what he could have brought to the team.

As you ended up seeing, the only way they were getting him the ball were on quick passes and nothing else. I would have to take a look at my charts to see how many throws were made to him over 10 yards in the air, but my unofficial guess would be 5 total based on his yards per catch when he was in there.

You would think that this would have went into the evaluation process before he was signed. But how much things were either fumbled or not communicated properly this season, a case can be made that it wasn't.
Worst coaching staff in the NFL, a pathetic leaderless organization  
trueblueinpw : 11/30/2017 5:00 pm : link
The G’aints haven’t had the threat of an NFL running back for years and I think this is biggest on field personnel reason the offense has been so poor this year and last. Plus the poor play of the O line. Injuries, or more so, the complete lack of depth which is exacerbated when injuries inevitably occur. (Looking at you Reese).

But the biggest problem, without any doubt in my mind is Ben McAdoo. He hasn’t ever produced a coaching mismatch with scheme or planning or adjustments or play calling, he doesn’t inspire, motivate or develop players at any level. As far as I can see, McAdoo has no feel or talent for anything which relates to pro football. The G’aints have the worst coaching staff in the NFL and this fact is reflected clearly in the abysmal w/l record and the ass clown atmosphere of the entire organization.
I don t know  
joeinpa : 11/30/2017 5:09 pm : link
What the rest said I guess

All I know is it ain't Giants foitball

Brandon Jacobs where are you.
The reason you are seeing those Packers WR's running free  
gmen9892 : 11/30/2017 5:35 pm : link
Is because it is usually after a broken play where Rodgers is improving and the WRs are running scramble drill routes. They practice these routes as part of the system in GB. Manning is not a scrambling QB, so that takes away the biggest reason why this system works for GB.

If you watch the GB offense without Rodgers, you see a lot less WRs running free. This offense cannot work without a mobile QB, which makes the move to it with Eli at the helm even more puzzling. Square peg in round hole.
RE: RE: I won't say the scheme sucks since we were succesful in it for 2 years  
PatersonPlank : 11/30/2017 5:36 pm : link
In comment 13715143 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13715134 BigBlueDownTheShore said:


Quote:


and it has been successful before under Rogers in GB, Kansas City with Alex Smith, and more importantly Donovan McNabb & Wentz in Philly.

What do all these guys have that Eli doesn't? They are mobile to a certain extent. Which is why they can get away with a subpar line.



not quite true. when McAdumb was OC, the offense was more of a TC/BM hybrid


Right. The past two seasons are the only two seasons Mac has had the offense all to himself, and it sucked.
RE: The reason you are seeing those Packers WR's running free  
gmen9892 : 11/30/2017 5:39 pm : link
In comment 13715261 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
Is because it is usually after a broken play where Rodgers is improving and the WRs are running scramble drill routes. They practice these routes as part of the system in GB. Manning is not a scrambling QB, so that takes away the biggest reason why this system works for GB.

If you watch the GB offense without Rodgers, you see a lot less WRs running free. This offense cannot work without a mobile QB, which makes the move to it with Eli at the helm even more puzzling. Square peg in round hole.


Rodgers is improvising*
RE: Marshall  
Fred-in-Florida : 11/30/2017 5:54 pm : link
In comment 13715153 rich79 said:
Quote:
Speaking of Brandon Marshall - I know most people consider signing him a failure and that he should not be back next year. From what I saw, the scheme never even tried to use him properly in the 3 games (was it only 3?) he played. It seemed like we'd go an entire first half and never throw the ball at him.


Marshall also had a few BIG drops!
lack of talent  
Vanzetti : 11/30/2017 6:12 pm : link
when guys don't get open, it is usually because they are not that good

the OL is subpar at just about every position

and then the few guys who have talent on offense are injured
RE: sounds trite, but it's everything  
JCin332 : 11/30/2017 6:14 pm : link
In comment 13715155 GiantNatty said:
Quote:
One play it's the line, the next play the QB throws an easy and wide-open screen pass over the receiver's head, the next play the line is fine and throw is good but the receiver drops the ball, the next play is a throw at a wide-open receiver's feet, and so on. A total team dysfunction.

For better or worse, it falls on the QB. He's in charge of getting everyone on the same page. He sets the tone and the pace for running a functional offense. He is supposed to be the horse that brings all the other horses in line. He's supposed to be the one to give them momentum and confidence. It just wasn't happening and for too long now.

I don't think that either of the remaining QBs on the roster are the answer and with nothing left to play for, it's hard to imagine any QB in the league could marshal this offense together at this point. But until this point, a lot of the criticism Eli has received is not unfair. (This is not to say I would have done what the Giants chose to do - I would not have).


So no other QB in the league could succeed but it'sthe QB's (Eli) fault...

You really are a fool...
What I took away from the first few games was Eli  
GiantsUA : 11/30/2017 6:31 pm : link
running for his life. The line has settled down but early on it was awful.
Gmen9892  
idiotsavant : 11/30/2017 6:34 pm : link
Good luck then finding another Aaron Rodgers.

Seriously- Even francesser says he's better than Brady. One of the best ever ...very rare.

Also. Your conflating causality.

Saying we lack a Rodgers does not in -any- way indicate that macdoo can actually coach.

And finally, lacking Rodgers:

- How arrogant and stubborn to subject Manning and the team and fans to the futility of trying that anyway...all year.

And...WR injuries partially result from limited route tree... from all these factors.

In short. Dumb and arrogant coaching and managing.
The most undignified possibility  
idiotsavant : 11/30/2017 6:43 pm : link
We can imagine...

would be that macadoo, Jerry reese, and maybe even Mr. Mara, got together and agreed to let macadoo keep trying his failed system...all year..


...KNOWing that injuries and failure would result...and thinking that that would then enable them to then go find an Aaron Rodgers to fit macadois system, or ...justify.. starting Geno...

Which backwards logic would be so silly and insulting that we would be justified to be disgusted.

Hopefully it's not the case.

In a word  
Matt M. : 11/30/2017 6:52 pm : link
McAdoo

His scheme sucks. His gamelan is mostly unchanged from game to game and is predictable to begin with. His choice of personnel is questionable both in terms of the roster and the packages/formations. His playcalling sucks and Sullivan isn't much different. The end of the season can't come soon enough.
It's the lack of wr talent plus Eli's lack of mobility,,,  
manh george : 11/30/2017 7:28 pm : link
more than anything else. Lack of a star rb also doesn;t help. Yes, there are scheme issues, and yes there are OL problems, but consider:

--With no significant deep threat at wr, opponents can pack the box, taking way any running opportunities inside.

--The ability to single cover every wr without significant risk allows for extra help close to the line outside as well.

--The lack of concern that any of the rb's will break through a pack-in line and generate a long play also allows opposing front sevens to play up close.

--Eli has no one except an inconsistent Engram whom he can rely on, on timing routes.

--Eli himself is not the kind of QB who can buy himself extra time with his legs. Never was to any degree, and less so now.

--Eli has always been at his best when he gets a rhythm with specific receivers, and has tended to get a bit gun-shy when required to guess where his receivers are going to be on a given play.

The lack of wr talent with a relatively immobile qb who best throws timing routes changes everything else. Teams with their fourth best wr at the head of the class, and very little behind that, usually tend to suck. It makes the entire rest of the offense look worse than it would otherwise.
Nothing special at rb  
djm : 11/30/2017 7:31 pm : link
A banged up OL that isn't that good on its best day. A decimated wr corp. An older qb that can only do much. A lost head coach.

Even if everything was just right the offense would still suck. Now it's just a special level of suck with all the aforementioned issues.
It has a lot do with quantum physics and  
Jimmy Googs : 11/30/2017 7:34 pm : link
breathing out of the wrong eyelids.,,
2 Reasons  
TD : 11/30/2017 8:06 pm : link
1) what I call "Reese's wager."

Reesebet the season that Eli and the high powered skill players on the outside would be able to overcome a mediocre at best OL and run game.

The OL (and run game) ended up sinking the O (and entire team) early on.. they never recovered.

2) Mcadoo

Already been covered well in this thread. Horrible scheme and a mismatch for most of his players.

Odell was injured ..a bit ...even before  
idiotsavant : 11/30/2017 8:15 pm : link
Regular season started. Ankle I think.

There is no way he gets through this season intact. No way.

During frigging Kurt Warner and early Eli, it became obvious that weak line play leads to WR injuries:

Time for routes shrinks. Play action disappears. Variety shrinks. Rather than running free, WRs take increasingly obvious and increasingly short dump downs.

Defensive coordinators and dbacks are not stupid people. They simply sit back and hammer the obvious limited route tree.

Wala. WR injuries.

Therefore this is a crap excuse.
Victor,  
Doomster : 11/30/2017 9:49 pm : link
the scheme SUCKS. That's why GB w/o Rodgers looks just like the Giants
Victor in CT : 4:16 pm : link : reply
bad fakes? Eli is a master at play action fakes. Except they have no runing game to respect anymore.

Did you see the GB/Pitt game? With a rookie qb? They looked nothing like the Giants....
Why?  
Doomster : 11/30/2017 9:58 pm : link
Terrible OL to start the year, then a re-shuffled one, afterwards...

The lack of RB's.....how many teams would the likes of Darkwa and Gallman start on?

A rookie TE, who suddenly had the pressure of being the primary receiver, and because of that, has had a lot of drops....

WR's that that would not be starters on any team....

Add to that, a scheme that calls for short pass accuracy, which is not Eli's forte....

It's amazing we hear week after week, what great practices we have.....and that Mac will design a game plan so the team will win....the HC is delusional....
Simple explaination:  
mrvax : 11/30/2017 10:42 pm : link
The Oline can't pass block or run block with much success at all.

Then you are running a WCO which exposes, not compliments Eli's best skills.
NFL record for most punts in one game is 14...  
thrunthrublue : 12/1/2017 12:38 am : link
Last game, the three and out heavy handed giants offensive brain trust punted 9 times, and with three more possessions in each half, the giants would have captured at least one record in this horrible 2 and 14 season.
McAdoo's play design is trash  
NyquistX3 : 12/1/2017 12:43 am : link
combined with no running game and a shitty offensive line.
The OC said  
bc4life : 12/1/2017 7:56 am : link
at the start of the season - the team will only go as far as the OL takes them.
RE: The OC said  
Jimmy Googs : 12/2/2017 6:21 am : link
In comment 13715784 bc4life said:
Quote:
at the start of the season - the team will only go as far as the OL takes them.


What I love about this statement is it is the exact opposite mind-set our leadership had going into the season since they invested most of their dollars/time elsewhere. I guess you have to give them a D- instead of an F since they at least got Ellison, although I would challenge how he was utilized.

Why is it bad?  
Mike from SI : 12/2/2017 6:39 am : link
How much time do you have?
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