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Kevin Gilbride interview regarding this mess.

AnishPatel : 12/1/2017 1:07 am
I found some of his comments interesting especially his take on the OL and how it degraded.
Kevin Gilbride supports Eli Manning, blasts Giants neglect of offensive line - ( New Window )
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Also been saying this for years:  
Britt in VA : 12/1/2017 8:54 am : link
Quote:
“Back in 2009 I started to argue that the line was getting old and 2010 we were getting beat up, we were still winning because we were still good enough. In 2011 even when we won the Super Bowl there were multiple guys getting hurt and banged up, and by 2012 we went 9-7 but we were hanging on by dear life,” Gilbride said. “We were hanging onto that windowsill with our fingernails. When 2013 happened and there were six different starters at running back, three different at right guard, four different at center, three at left guard. That stuff’s been going on for a while now.

“This isn’t just an overnight thing. People are acting like this just happened. This has been a buildup that needed to be addressed for a while.”


It's so damn obvious and clear what happened. Right in front of our eyes.
Guys  
crick n NC : 12/1/2017 8:55 am : link
Don't forget when Mac was hired coughlin said the offense would be a mixture of coughlin's\gilbride's offense and Mac's. Interesting that while coughlin was still coach the offense was good, when coughlin left the offense sucked. I firmly believe Mac removed coughlin's mix of the offense, which probably was the good part of the offense.
....  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 12/1/2017 9:00 am : link
Quote:
Guys
crick n NC : 8:55 am : link : reply
Don't forget when Mac was hired coughlin said the offense would be a mixture of coughlin's\gilbride's offense and Mac's. Interesting that while coughlin was still coach the offense was good, when coughlin left the offense sucked. I firmly believe Mac removed coughlin's mix of the offense, which probably was the good part of the offense.


I've thought about this. It's been mentioned several times that Mac's offense is not that sophisticated. They run the majority of their plays out of one formation.

Could just be the defensive coordinators caught up to what he was doing
Gilbride's absolutely correct.  
an_idol_mind : 12/1/2017 9:04 am : link
And if you want to talk about a guy who got screwed by the Giants, he's a great example.

Took over the offense at the end of 2006, won two Super Bowls during his time here, and his offenses finished top 10 in points and yards from 2008 through 2011. Then the first year his offense falters, Mara stands up at his end of year press conference, proclaims the offense "broken," and openly speculates why Jerrell freakin' Jernigan didn't get more playing time. And thus he's forced to "retire" so he doesn't get fired.
He hits it right on the Head....  
Simms11 : 12/1/2017 9:11 am : link
He’s always been a fairly astute guy. I’m sure we’ll see Eli thrive in a warm location with an Oline, like Jville. Giants fans are so fickle though. I remember when everyone wanted to drive “Killdrive” out of town 4 years ago and now he’s missed?!
RE: He hits it right on the Head....  
Britt in VA : 12/1/2017 9:16 am : link
In comment 13715941 Simms11 said:
Quote:
He’s always been a fairly astute guy. I’m sure we’ll see Eli thrive in a warm location with an Oline, like Jville. Giants fans are so fickle though. I remember when everyone wanted to drive “Killdrive” out of town 4 years ago and now he’s missed?!


The same morons that wanted Coughlin gone, and the same morons that have wanted Eli benched this year....

When will they run out of scapegoats and accept the reality of the situation?
Best offensive coordinator in franchise history  
widmerseyebrow : 12/1/2017 9:18 am : link
Hard to believe so many here wanted him gone because Reuben Randal and Jerrell Jernnigan were faltering and all that simplification nonsense. The erudite Mario Manningham flourished in his offense and that should have told everyone his offense was "simple" enough.
This is a misconception...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/1/2017 9:22 am : link
Quote:
I've thought about this. It's been mentioned several times that Mac's offense is not that sophisticated. They run the majority of their plays out of one formation.


They run the majority of their plays (91% last year to be exact) out of the same personnel grouping.

But I don't think the offense is that sophisticated. several opponents have commented about how the Giants telegraph their plays. Sean O'Hara has said they basically have 4 running plays. It is more in the difference in results between Coughlin's offense and Mac's:

- Under Coughlin, we were in the top ten of 20+ yard plays every year but one. The two years under Mac, we are in the bottom 10.

- Coughlin never had the same personnel grouping on the field for more than 60% of the time. Mac ran the 11 personnel grouping 91% last year - the highest any team has for one personnel grouping since 2000

- Coughlin aspired to have a 50/50 mix of run to pass, theoretically keeping the defense "honest". Mac has no philosophy on this and again - the comments by opponents about knowing what is coming

The Giants went from a vertical offense under Gilbride to a hybrid offense instituting some WCO elements with Mac as OC, to almost completely eliminating the vertical aspect with Mac as HC.

It is a vastly different offense, even from 2 years ago.
RE: This is a misconception...  
Victor in CT : 12/1/2017 9:26 am : link
In comment 13715956 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


I've thought about this. It's been mentioned several times that Mac's offense is not that sophisticated. They run the majority of their plays out of one formation.



They run the majority of their plays (91% last year to be exact) out of the same personnel grouping.

But I don't think the offense is that sophisticated. several opponents have commented about how the Giants telegraph their plays. Sean O'Hara has said they basically have 4 running plays. It is more in the difference in results between Coughlin's offense and Mac's:

- Under Coughlin, we were in the top ten of 20+ yard plays every year but one. The two years under Mac, we are in the bottom 10.

- Coughlin never had the same personnel grouping on the field for more than 60% of the time. Mac ran the 11 personnel grouping 91% last year - the highest any team has for one personnel grouping since 2000

- Coughlin aspired to have a 50/50 mix of run to pass, theoretically keeping the defense "honest". Mac has no philosophy on this and again - the comments by opponents about knowing what is coming

The Giants went from a vertical offense under Gilbride to a hybrid offense instituting some WCO elements with Mac as OC, to almost completely eliminating the vertical aspect with Mac as HC.

It is a vastly different offense, even from 2 years ago.


well done Fats
It's too bad that Coughlin will not come out and really say anything..  
EricJ : 12/1/2017 9:37 am : link
about the incompetence of the Giants' front office. That guy probably has enough to say that would keep us glued to the TV listening
To a Certain Extent  
Bernie : 12/1/2017 9:40 am : link
revisionist history here. Gilbride was most effective when he modified his offense during the 2 Super Bowl runs. Both times, there was less deep vertical attempts and more short to middle passes that were mixed with a strong running game. But outside of those two runs, he and TC were infatuated with the big plays deep and all too often ignored the mid level stuff. Perhaps this was driven by a lack of a TE and improved with the emergence of Cruz in 2011. But that was always my frustration with a Gilbride offense.

Having said that, I despise this current offense. Throw it to OBJ and pray. Ugh.
RE: MS yet despite your acknowledgement  
M.S. : 12/1/2017 9:41 am : link
In comment 13715722 JCin332 said:
Quote:
of the shitty OL you still probably averaged one thread a week trashing Eli and saying he was the problem...

Such a fool...

Since you're so fond of reading my threads, read this...

Big Defender of Eli Manning...
M.S. : 9/11/2017 5:29 am
...over the years. I believe he is a Hall of Fame QB, and I have strongly believed over the past several years (like many others on BBI) that his play has been adversely affected by a weak offensive line that has transformed his game (obviously for the worse).

I also realize that over his entire career there has always been the "good" Eli and the "bad" Eli, and it is our very good fortune that we only saw the former in two amazing Super Bowl runs.

But, but, but...

...in watching games around the league yesterday (especially watching Carson Wentz), a deep gnawing thought crept in that reminded me of the same damn gnawing thoughts I had on occasion about Eli last season (and at times) over the past three or four seasons... and were on full display last night:

(1) Eli is old and he moves around like he is old;
(2) Eli's game was never about making amazing plays with his legs, but he looks more immobile than ever before;
(3) If things are not just perfect for him in the pocket, Eli gets increasingly jittery and his accuracy goes (way) down;
(4) It doesn't look like Eli is able to lift the game of those around him, nor does it look like he is energizing those around him.

Clearly, Eli missed OBJ and his O-line compounded the problem last night, but right now, the Giants have more than just an offensive line to worry about as this season progresses and beyond.

Regardless of how you feel about our Divisional rival QBs, we have in fact two opponents (Dallas and Philly) that have very young and very mobile QBs who can make plays when things are not perfect. And their team mates respond and feed off of them.

We do not. And that is a very big problem.
RE: To a Certain Extent  
Britt in VA : 12/1/2017 9:45 am : link
In comment 13716011 Bernie said:
Quote:
revisionist history here. Gilbride was most effective when he modified his offense during the 2 Super Bowl runs. Both times, there was less deep vertical attempts and more short to middle passes that were mixed with a strong running game. But outside of those two runs, he and TC were infatuated with the big plays deep and all too often ignored the mid level stuff. Perhaps this was driven by a lack of a TE and improved with the emergence of Cruz in 2011. But that was always my frustration with a Gilbride offense.

Having said that, I despise this current offense. Throw it to OBJ and pray. Ugh.


Modified his offense? I don't remember that at all.

Strong running game? Hardly in 2011. Dead last in the league. Good coaching and gameplanning, and a powerful runners in Bradshaw and Jacobs allowed some "effective" running, but it was hardly a strong running game.

No mid to short game? Again, disagree, there were lots of hot reads to slants and 10 yard crossing routes. Also the back shoulder fade at 15 yards or so was a staple.
RE: Guys  
Section331 : 12/1/2017 9:57 am : link
In comment 13715905 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Don't forget when Mac was hired coughlin said the offense would be a mixture of coughlin's\gilbride's offense and Mac's. Interesting that while coughlin was still coach the offense was good, when coughlin left the offense sucked. I firmly believe Mac removed coughlin's mix of the offense, which probably was the good part of the offense.


Exactly. TC insisted on keeping in some of the route options and wanted big plays. KG makes an interesting point about McAdoo using short passes because he doesn't trust the OL, but I think that is just his offense. He has an aversion to going deep.

Ownership screwed this situation up. Reese's neglect of the OL was a firable offense. I thought TC's time had come and gone, but Reese should have been out the door first. I just don't know what he has to do to get fired. And even if you think McAdoo is a hot up and coming coach, you have to acknowledge that his offense wasn't a great fit for Eli, even if he had a solid OL.
For the longest times half the dumbasses  
chuckydee9 : 12/1/2017 10:06 am : link
on BBI kept blaming (some still do) TC for the OL issue.. Stating that coach wanted to stay with the older OL.. but its clear from KG's conversation that coaches wanted OL help since before 2011..

Please Reese defenders tell me how JR should have a job when him and his FO hasn't been able to provide Eli an OL for almost 8-9 years now? There is only so much any coach in the world can do without OL.. BM, TC even Bilichick can't win when their OL get killed.. People are pissed at BM.. but BM has been only the HC for 1.5 years.. JR has been screwing up since 2007 draft..
Great Article  
PaulN : 12/1/2017 10:07 am : link
And great comments here. The alarming part of all this is how the hell are these bunch of idiots going to fix this mess? We know there is one way, fire the bunch and hire the right man, anyone here believe that John Mara can do that? I know I don't, I hope he can and does, but I have little faith.
RE: Guys  
Britt in VA : 12/1/2017 10:10 am : link
In comment 13715905 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Don't forget when Mac was hired coughlin said the offense would be a mixture of coughlin's\gilbride's offense and Mac's. Interesting that while coughlin was still coach the offense was good, when coughlin left the offense sucked. I firmly believe Mac removed coughlin's mix of the offense, which probably was the good part of the offense.


Called this very early in the season last year:

Quote:
Coughlin Offense vs. McAdoo Offense

Britt in VA : 10/28/2016 9:58 am
I'm stirring up a bees nest, but...

Coughlin's offense was built around throwing the ball deep, and moving guys around to create mismatches. McAdoo's offense thus far appears to be just lining up in the same formation and throwing short passes under 10 yards. Under Coughlin, for years we led the league in passes and completions over 15-20 yards.

One has to wonder how much of Coughlin's offense last year was responsible for the offensive success? The personnel is actually better this year than last.

How much of Coughlin's offense was still installed last year in addition to McAdoo's, maybe a hybrid of sorts? Coughlin's philosophy was always to take shots downfield, something that has seemingly all but disappeared since his dismissal. Beckham also lined up in the slot a lot more to create mismatches.

Might eventually have to chalk this one up in the "grass isn't always greener" category. I know that won't be popular, and will bring out the fangs of the Fire Coughlin crowd, but if you're being honest with yourself, what else can you attribute it to?

Last year's offense with this year's defense would be playoff bound.


Got blasted for it.

Link - ( New Window )
MS you can't have your cake and eat it too...  
JCin332 : 12/1/2017 10:12 am : link
In the article KG says he does not see any physical downturn in Eli's skills and sees the problem in the continued deterioration in the OL....and according to you you agree..

You then state he is old and can't move and use Dak and Wentz as the type of QB we need...

Guess what...they both have 2 of the best OL's in football both pass pro and run blocking...

A lot of us have been saying maybe Eli's skills have been on the downswing but you cannot know considering the shit he's been surrounded with talent wise (mainly OL, RB, and TE)...
......  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 12/1/2017 10:14 am : link
Quick recap of the 2013 offensive roster

QB - Eli
TOP RB - Andre Brown, David Wilson (played 4 games)
WR - Cruz (missed 4 games), Nicks, Randle
TE - Myers
LT - Beatty
LG - Boothe
C - Baas (played 3 games), Jim Cordle
RG - Snee (played 2 games) Deihl
RT - Pugh

With the benefit of hindsight, would you say it was the personel or John Mara's "Broken Offense" explanation?

KG was on Sirius Tuesday night with Polian and Marvez...  
Racer : 12/1/2017 10:16 am : link
...and said the same things.

My favorite quote was (and I paraphrase) "I picked up something late in the week on pressures, so I called Eli pretty late on Thursday night and said 'sorry to bother you but we have this to deal with and we just got around to looking at it', but Eli said 'no problem coach, I'm just watching some film' and Eli had already seen what Gilbride was about to discuss with him.

FU McAdoo.
Bottom line is your fix a problem before it gets  
LauderdaleMatty : 12/1/2017 10:18 am : link
To become a major issue.

So for the morons who consistently rush to Reese's defense that he didn't "ignore" the OL. He did until he was forced to draft players. Only Pugh can even be looked at as a solid to above average player

Reese fucked up. Period. He deserved to be fired but upper management is in lockstep w him. So they fired parts of TCs staff then TC. Now IRS Manning's turn to get the blame.

This team is impossible for me to root for for the foreseeable future as I have zero faith in Mr Silver Spoon DNA lottery lightweight Mara Is so involved. Never mind his equally unqualified brother hand picked toadies are around.
RE: He hits it right on the Head....  
AnishPatel : 12/1/2017 11:15 am : link
In comment 13715941 Simms11 said:
Quote:
He’s always been a fairly astute guy. I’m sure we’ll see Eli thrive in a warm location with an Oline, like Jville. Giants fans are so fickle though. I remember when everyone wanted to drive “Killdrive” out of town 4 years ago and now he’s missed?!


It's interesting. I always respected him and his system, but never thought it was a good fit. I feel bad that it took Reese not addressing the position to basically get Gilbride fired/retired since his system predicated on 5 snd 7 step drops couldn't work with the shitty ass OL we had.
slants and crossing patterns  
HomerJones45 : 12/1/2017 11:15 am : link
Quote:
No mid to short game? Again, disagree, there were lots of hot reads to slants and 10 yard crossing routes. Also the back shoulder fade at 15 yards or so was a staple.
Worked because the vertical threats backed the safeties and lb up which opened up the middle. If you watch the Redskins game, the Redskins were playing 7 and 8 man fronts against us so there was no room for the short passing game. They disregarded the vertical threat.

Mara panicked (what else is new) in 2013 and forced Gilbride out.
The o-line was not necessarily neglected  
HomerJones45 : 12/1/2017 11:17 am : link
several high draft picks were used on o-linemen. It just that the FO bungled the picks.

Reese has some serious survival skills. He managed to pin the blame on everyone else and it wasn't until they were all forced out that it became readily apparent that he was the problem all along.
RE: RE: He hits it right on the Head....  
HomerJones45 : 12/1/2017 11:19 am : link
In comment 13716299 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
In comment 13715941 Simms11 said:


Quote:


He’s always been a fairly astute guy. I’m sure we’ll see Eli thrive in a warm location with an Oline, like Jville. Giants fans are so fickle though. I remember when everyone wanted to drive “Killdrive” out of town 4 years ago and now he’s missed?!



It's interesting. I always respected him and his system, but never thought it was a good fit. I feel bad that it took Reese not addressing the position to basically get Gilbride fired/retired since his system predicated on 5 snd 7 step drops couldn't work with the shitty ass OL we had.
You were tub thumping that "balance" wasn't necessary and that the short passing game a la McAdoo was the ticket to success. Turns out Gilbride's offense was a much better fit, especially for the qb, than the McAdoo offense you were championing.
RE: KG was on Sirius Tuesday night with Polian and Marvez...  
HomerJones45 : 12/1/2017 11:23 am : link
In comment 13716086 Racer said:
Quote:
...and said the same things.

My favorite quote was (and I paraphrase) "I picked up something late in the week on pressures, so I called Eli pretty late on Thursday night and said 'sorry to bother you but we have this to deal with and we just got around to looking at it', but Eli said 'no problem coach, I'm just watching some film' and Eli had already seen what Gilbride was about to discuss with him.

FU McAdoo.
Twice conquered the near-invincible Little Bill on the biggest stage. No one else has been able to beat him once.

And we voluntarily got rid of all those guys- smart
RE: RE: RE: He hits it right on the Head....  
AnishPatel : 12/1/2017 11:29 am : link
In comment 13716309 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 13716299 AnishPatel said:


Quote:


In comment 13715941 Simms11 said:


Quote:


He’s always been a fairly astute guy. I’m sure we’ll see Eli thrive in a warm location with an Oline, like Jville. Giants fans are so fickle though. I remember when everyone wanted to drive “Killdrive” out of town 4 years ago and now he’s missed?!



It's interesting. I always respected him and his system, but never thought it was a good fit. I feel bad that it took Reese not addressing the position to basically get Gilbride fired/retired since his system predicated on 5 snd 7 step drops couldn't work with the shitty ass OL we had.

You were tub thumping that "balance" wasn't necessary and that the short passing game a la McAdoo was the ticket to success. Turns out Gilbride's offense was a much better fit, especially for the qb, than the McAdoo offense you were championing.


Eli played better when McAdoo was the OC. I never liked Gilbrides system. I think if we ran it now past two years Eli would be leading the league in INTs. So no, I never liked that system for Eli. Now our personnel, specifically OL has degraded to the point it's hard to run anything. Take away WRs, and you get what you have now with Eli with 130 passing yards. I never liked system we ran when Gilbride was here.
RE: The o-line was not necessarily neglected  
an_idol_mind : 12/1/2017 11:29 am : link
In comment 13716306 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
several high draft picks were used on o-linemen. It just that the FO bungled the picks.

Reese has some serious survival skills. He managed to pin the blame on everyone else and it wasn't until they were all forced out that it became readily apparent that he was the problem all along.


Reese inherited this offensive line in 2007:

Diehl-Seubert-O'Hara-Snee-McKenzie

He deserves credit for putting Diehl in as a full-time starter and cutting the injured Luke Petitgout.

In terms of reinforcing that line, Reese's early years included investments such as a 6th rounder on Adam Koets, a 2nd round on Will Beatty, A 5th rounder on Mitch Petrus, a 4th rounder on James Brewer, a 4th rounder on Brandon Mosley, and a 6th rounder on Matt McCants.

That's one high-level pick in six years spent on the offensive line. By the time Reese finally drafted Pugh in 2013, the Giants had lost both O'Hara and Seubert to injury, Snee and Diehl were ineffective due to age and injury, and McKenzie was retired.

He has attempted to fix the offensive line since 2013, and has done so ineffectively. But it shouldn't have taken the house burning down to start putting up some new pillars.

The Giants won a Super Bowl in 2007 with an amazing defensive line. In 2008, they were one of the best teams in the league and had two 1,000-yard rushers. That should have reinforced the importance of having two great lines.
I would love to see  
GeorgeAdams33 : 12/1/2017 11:38 am : link
.........Steve Tisch bitch slap the Maras and fire everyone.
RE: RE: RE: RE: He hits it right on the Head....  
Section331 : 12/1/2017 11:39 am : link
In comment 13716338 AnishPatel said:
Quote:

Eli played better when McAdoo was the OC. I never liked Gilbrides system. I think if we ran it now past two years Eli would be leading the league in INTs. So no, I never liked that system for Eli. Now our personnel, specifically OL has degraded to the point it's hard to run anything. Take away WRs, and you get what you have now with Eli with 130 passing yards. I never liked system we ran when Gilbride was here.


I liked KG, and was pissed that he was made the fall guy, but his offense would be a disaster with this OL; and, with the practice limitations, I'm not sure his offense works in today's NFL.

That said, TC's influence on McAdoo's offense is glaringly apparent. The fall off from 2014-15 to 2016-17 is astounding.
RE: RE: The o-line was not necessarily neglected  
Bill L : 12/1/2017 11:42 am : link
In comment 13716339 an_idol_mind said:
Quote:
In comment 13716306 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


several high draft picks were used on o-linemen. It just that the FO bungled the picks.

Reese has some serious survival skills. He managed to pin the blame on everyone else and it wasn't until they were all forced out that it became readily apparent that he was the problem all along.



Reese inherited this offensive line in 2007:

Diehl-Seubert-O'Hara-Snee-McKenzie

He deserves credit for putting Diehl in as a full-time starter and cutting the injured Luke Petitgout.

In terms of reinforcing that line, Reese's early years included investments such as a 6th rounder on Adam Koets, a 2nd round on Will Beatty, A 5th rounder on Mitch Petrus, a 4th rounder on James Brewer, a 4th rounder on Brandon Mosley, and a 6th rounder on Matt McCants.

That's one high-level pick in six years spent on the offensive line. By the time Reese finally drafted Pugh in 2013, the Giants had lost both O'Hara and Seubert to injury, Snee and Diehl were ineffective due to age and injury, and McKenzie was retired.

He has attempted to fix the offensive line since 2013, and has done so ineffectively. But it shouldn't have taken the house burning down to start putting up some new pillars.

The Giants won a Super Bowl in 2007 with an amazing defensive line. In 2008, they were one of the best teams in the league and had two 1,000-yard rushers. That should have reinforced the importance of having two great lines.
I don't remember exactly the reports on all those guys but my recollection is that they picked a lot as projects; guys who looked the part or may develop but who didn't really have that great a track record. Sort of an "I'm too smart and will find the hidden gems" philosophy. SO there wasn't as big a base to quickly improve upon. I think that they also went through a period where they preferred positional flexibility to being a really good player at a single line position. I'm not a jack of all trades guy myself, especially when, barring injuries, you want to entrench a guy for years.
RE: RE: RE: RE: He hits it right on the Head....  
trueblueinpw : 12/1/2017 11:44 am : link
Quote:
Eli played better when McAdoo was the OC. I never liked Gilbrides system.


What? Eli won two Super Bowls with Gilbride. Eli's career has been ruined by McAdoo who has driven the entire offense to the bottom of the league two years running now. Please, remember, when McAdoo took over as O-Co, he got OBJ as a rookie who took the entire league by storm. It wasn't McAdoo's scheme that made OBJ great - it was OBJ greatness that kept McAdoo's scheme from being completely exposed for the pathetic dreck that everyone in the league now says it is. You don't think Gilbride could have perked up the offense with OBJ? Give me a break man - Gilbride's career completely dwarfs McAdoo's.
RE: This is a misconception...  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 12/1/2017 12:28 pm : link
In comment 13715956 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


I've thought about this. It's been mentioned several times that Mac's offense is not that sophisticated. They run the majority of their plays out of one formation.



They run the majority of their plays (91% last year to be exact) out of the same personnel grouping.

But I don't think the offense is that sophisticated. several opponents have commented about how the Giants telegraph their plays. Sean O'Hara has said they basically have 4 running plays. It is more in the difference in results between Coughlin's offense and Mac's:

- Under Coughlin, we were in the top ten of 20+ yard plays every year but one. The two years under Mac, we are in the bottom 10.

- Coughlin never had the same personnel grouping on the field for more than 60% of the time. Mac ran the 11 personnel grouping 91% last year - the highest any team has for one personnel grouping since 2000

- Coughlin aspired to have a 50/50 mix of run to pass, theoretically keeping the defense "honest". Mac has no philosophy on this and again - the comments by opponents about knowing what is coming

The Giants went from a vertical offense under Gilbride to a hybrid offense instituting some WCO elements with Mac as OC, to almost completely eliminating the vertical aspect with Mac as HC.

It is a vastly different offense, even from 2 years ago.


To be fair, using different personnel groupings in 2016 would've involved significantly more playing time for 2 players who weren't good last season and are no longer on NFL active rosters (Larry Donnell and Will Tye). Would that have been the best use of their personnel?

As for the running game, the Giants had TWO different RBs averaging 15 carries per game the final month of 2016. The idea that they didn't run or seek to run under McAdoo is false. The productivity while running is an entirely different matter and I certainly won't dispute anything O'Hara says about variety in their run plays.

As for throwing vertically, there were 172 receivers/TEs who had 70+ targets in 2016. Only 10 of them averaged more yards per reception than a beat-up on his last legs Victor Cruz and that list includes names like Julio Jones, Alshon Jeffery, Brandin Cooks, and TY Hilton. (The problem with Cruz was the serious lack of efficiency when he was targeted and the fact he just wasn't that good anymore physically.)

These types of conversations on BBI always make me laugh because they seem to have one solitary purpose... divert any possible credit away from people who're disliked to people who're well-liked regardless of whether they deserve it. (My "favorite" of these conversations is blaming Fassel for a Super Bowl loss while giving all credit for preceding wins to Fox and Payton.) How can it be that Coughlin gets the credit for Eli's 2014 and 2015 seasons, yet avoids any of the blame for the 2013 and earlier turnover-laden, inefficient seasons? How can anyone excuse 2013's numbers due to lack of talent, then conveniently forget that the majority of the high-snap skill position players in the 2016 offense couldn't make an NFL roster 12 months later? Considering the efficiency and productivity of 2014 and 2015, it's unfair to give Coughlin credit for that instead of McAdoo. If people want to give Odell the bulk of the credit, that's fine. It just seems unfair to try devise ways so that McAdoo gets zero/the least amount of credit despite an obvious uptick in Eli's performance.

LORD knows I complained about last season's offense a lot, including the lack of diversity in it's formations and personnel. Looking back on it, I'm not sure what could've been done considering the amount of players who just 12 months later were out of the league or basically useless. Perhaps the talent wasn't there in 2016 for productivity regardless of scheme or head coach. As for 2017, the only thing that can be said is the 2 most productive/highest scoring games for the offense and the QB were the only 2 games featuring completely healthy rosters (Philly & Tampa). They actually left a ton of points on the field in those 2 games. While I think McAdoo deserves a TON of criticism for the offense those first 2 weeks of the season, who knows how the offense turns out if everyone stayed healthy? (Then again, everyone started out healthy in the Chargers game and Eli was absolutely terrible that day.)
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: He hits it right on the Head....  
AnishPatel : 12/1/2017 12:48 pm : link
In comment 13716357 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13716338 AnishPatel said:


Quote:



Eli played better when McAdoo was the OC. I never liked Gilbrides system. I think if we ran it now past two years Eli would be leading the league in INTs. So no, I never liked that system for Eli. Now our personnel, specifically OL has degraded to the point it's hard to run anything. Take away WRs, and you get what you have now with Eli with 130 passing yards. I never liked system we ran when Gilbride was here.



I liked KG, and was pissed that he was made the fall guy, but his offense would be a disaster with this OL; and, with the practice limitations, I'm not sure his offense works in today's NFL.

That said, TC's influence on McAdoo's offense is glaringly apparent. The fall off from 2014-15 to 2016-17 is astounding.


That I agree with! Good post man. I am actually happy I don't see ball go one way and WR/TE doing something else. Then watching ELi glaring at the WR as if to say, "What fuck you doing?". Now when I see Eli throw a pass to EE I have confidence it's to him, and not going to some other direction due to miscommunication. Fuck! I hated seeing that religiously!

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: He hits it right on the Head....  
widmerseyebrow : 12/1/2017 1:18 pm : link
In comment 13716357 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13716338 AnishPatel said:


Quote:



Eli played better when McAdoo was the OC. I never liked Gilbrides system. I think if we ran it now past two years Eli would be leading the league in INTs. So no, I never liked that system for Eli. Now our personnel, specifically OL has degraded to the point it's hard to run anything. Take away WRs, and you get what you have now with Eli with 130 passing yards. I never liked system we ran when Gilbride was here.



I liked KG, and was pissed that he was made the fall guy, but his offense would be a disaster with this OL; and, with the practice limitations, I'm not sure his offense works in today's NFL.

That said, TC's influence on McAdoo's offense is glaringly apparent. The fall off from 2014-15 to 2016-17 is astounding.


KG's offensive line was just as bad, arguably worse in 2013. I'll never understand why the solution wasn't "Fix the offensive line" instead of "change the entire system to try to mask our shitty offensive line."
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: He hits it right on the Head....  
Britt in VA : 12/1/2017 1:20 pm : link
In comment 13716569 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
In comment 13716357 Section331 said:


Quote:


In comment 13716338 AnishPatel said:


Quote:



Eli played better when McAdoo was the OC. I never liked Gilbrides system. I think if we ran it now past two years Eli would be leading the league in INTs. So no, I never liked that system for Eli. Now our personnel, specifically OL has degraded to the point it's hard to run anything. Take away WRs, and you get what you have now with Eli with 130 passing yards. I never liked system we ran when Gilbride was here.



I liked KG, and was pissed that he was made the fall guy, but his offense would be a disaster with this OL; and, with the practice limitations, I'm not sure his offense works in today's NFL.

That said, TC's influence on McAdoo's offense is glaringly apparent. The fall off from 2014-15 to 2016-17 is astounding.



KG's offensive line was just as bad, arguably worse in 2013. I'll never understand why the solution wasn't "Fix the offensive line" instead of "change the entire system to try to mask our shitty offensive line."


Because that would lay the blame at Reese's feet.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: He hits it right on the Head....  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 12/1/2017 1:23 pm : link
In comment 13716569 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:


KG's offensive line was just as bad, arguably worse in 2013. I'll never understand why the solution wasn't "Fix the offensive line" instead of "change the entire system to try to mask our shitty offensive line."


They tried to... they spent the 19th pick, 43rd pick, and 9th pick in successive drafts on o-linemen. The problem was either scouting, coaching, or both. They spent money on Geoff Schwartz. They made other additions around the margins. To this point, literally nothing they did has panned out. Blame the execution, not the effort.
Are we really going to just forget how little Gilbride's was liked  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/1/2017 1:31 pm : link
When he was actually working here just to be able to feed into continuing angst? Really re-writing history here. The same people ripping been McAdoo for stubbornly trying to apply his offensive scheme can't with a straight face paint Gilbride as a sacrificial lamb for management when he was guilty of the same crime of being fully aware of the sorry state of his offensive line and still playing bombs away football.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: He hits it right on the Head....  
widmerseyebrow : 12/1/2017 1:34 pm : link
In comment 13716578 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Because that would lay the blame at Reese's feet.


Absolutely. I get why it happened that way within the organization but just amazed the fans bought into that reasoning despite proof to the contrary (TWO rings!).
RE: Are we really going to just forget how little Gilbride's was liked  
crick n NC : 12/1/2017 1:42 pm : link
In comment 13716604 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
When he was actually working here just to be able to feed into continuing angst? Really re-writing history here. The same people ripping been McAdoo for stubbornly trying to apply his offensive scheme can't with a straight face paint Gilbride as a sacrificial lamb for management when he was guilty of the same crime of being fully aware of the sorry state of his offensive line and still playing bombs away football.


I think your memory is faulty, gilbride adjusted the offense to more short passes. I can't remember what game it started. Of course gilbride knew that defenses would just crowd the line and dare the OL to protect.
The beauty..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/1/2017 3:57 pm : link
about Gilbride's system is that this was the exact situation it avoided:

Quote:
The same people ripping been McAdoo for stubbornly trying to apply his offensive scheme can't with a straight face paint Gilbride as a sacrificial lamb for management when he was guilty of the same crime of being fully aware of the sorry state of his offensive line and still playing bombs away football


He technically altered his gameplan each and every week and the routes there were routes on nearly every play that were meant to react differently to different looks.

That's where the discussion about complexity came in. To think he just bombed away is a complete mischaracterization.
RE: The beauty..  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/1/2017 5:09 pm : link
In comment 13716961 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
about Gilbride's system is that this was the exact situation it avoided:



Quote:


The same people ripping been McAdoo for stubbornly trying to apply his offensive scheme can't with a straight face paint Gilbride as a sacrificial lamb for management when he was guilty of the same crime of being fully aware of the sorry state of his offensive line and still playing bombs away football



He technically altered his gameplan each and every week and the routes there were routes on nearly every play that were meant to react differently to different looks.

That's where the discussion about complexity came in. To think he just bombed away is a complete mischaracterization.


The core philosophy of their offense was running the football inside and pushing the ball downfield. Yes there were option routes designed to be very difficult to predict and defend but they never schemed to get away from playing for aggressive, chunk-yardage plays. He was just as guilty as McAdoo at not working with what you had on the roster.

At least there was some sense in going to a quick-pass offensive scheme after 2013 when it was plain to see the offensive line was a horror show. They didn't ask the OL to hold up in pass pro as much as the average team, and it STILL wasn't good enough.

if you cannot stretch the defense  
mdc1 : 12/1/2017 7:24 pm : link
as Gilbride mentions, you do not win. You need big plays down field and a running game that keeps the defense off balance. That combo existed under Gilbride when the line was good then we saw in 1 year about 1/3 drop in rushing performance and things changed. McAdoo is forcing an impotent scheme on the sins of the owners and GM to fix the oline.
RE: The o-line was not necessarily neglected  
WillVAB : 12/1/2017 10:30 pm : link
In comment 13716306 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
several high draft picks were used on o-linemen. It just that the FO bungled the picks.

Reese has some serious survival skills. He managed to pin the blame on everyone else and it wasn't until they were all forced out that it became readily apparent that he was the problem all along.


It was neglected. If you believe KG, Reese should’ve been seriously considering OL help in the ‘10 draft. After ‘11, even the fans could see the OL decline despite the SB win. What does Reese do? Burn high picks on shiny skill players until he has to force a pick on Pugh in ‘13.

So Reese waits 4 years before he finally commits a premium asset to the OL. Tells you all you need to know about his roster building philosophy.
I think he really hit on the OL  
AcesUp : 12/1/2017 10:47 pm : link
The biggest problem we're dealing with now, is the FO's neglect at the early part of this decade. These are personnel decisions that we're STILL dealing with. By the time they decided to address the unit, they were forcing picks and barely making contact at the top of the draft, while completely whiffing in the middle and bottom rounds. Things would have looked much much different if they proactively looked to address it as the championship OLs declined from '09-'12. Cordy Glenn is one of those guys that just sticks out like a sore thumb. He was a consensus guy of value, at a position of need, and we went with a RB. It just kind of illustrates this FOs blindspot there.
Gilbride’s System  
WillVAB : 12/1/2017 10:53 pm : link
He’s a great offensive mind but his system wasn’t perfect or the best during his run here:

1. It was very boom or bust. When the protection was there and everyone’s reads were on point it was unstoppable. If any of those things were off it would sputter or lead to big plays for the opposition.

2. Red zone/short yardage — his system didn’t work well in those situations.

3. As a corollary to the above, his system required either smart receivers or receivers getting a lot of reps to learn the reads. This is why it frequently took guys time to get on the field and why the results were disastrous if the QB/WR weren’t on the same page.
Gilbride's system WAS fine  
AcesUp : 12/1/2017 10:56 pm : link
I think what happened was the new CBA. Limiting practice time murders an offense that relies on option routes contingent upon the QB and WRs being on the same page.
RE: I think he really hit on the OL  
LauderdaleMatty : 12/2/2017 12:51 am : link
In comment 13717406 AcesUp said:
Quote:
The biggest problem we're dealing with now, is the FO's neglect at the early part of this decade. These are personnel decisions that we're STILL dealing with. By the time they decided to address the unit, they were forcing picks and barely making contact at the top of the draft, while completely whiffing in the middle and bottom rounds. Things would have looked much much different if they proactively looked to address it as the championship OLs declined from '09-'12. Cordy Glenn is one of those guys that just sticks out like a sore thumb. He was a consensus guy of value, at a position of need, and we went with a RB. It just kind of illustrates this FOs blindspot there.


Around the time frame Gilbride was talking about you can throw in Max Unger who was there when Reese picked Sintim. Unger was a very good OL. Sintim didn't fit the D at all. Reese likes his boom or bust types. And Bobby Wagner was available when they grabbed Wilson. Reese has a blind spot. Nothing against Engram who looks to be a good receiver nut both Ramzyck and Robinson are doing just fine playing LT this year. OL is a mess and how the Giants for 11 years have let Reese duck it up.
I always wonder if Reese was colored  
AcesUp : 12/2/2017 1:11 am : link
by the early OL success in his career, dating back to the Accorsi transition. Diehl was drafted in the 5th round as a guard/swing tackle and ended up as a solid blindside LT, Snee worked out as expected early in the draft, O'Hara was a bargain FA that way outperformed his contract, Seubert was a promising undrafted OG with written off NFL potential thanks to injuries and McKenzie was an overpriced FA. They all worked out. I think the post-Accorsi organization started to take the unit for granted thanks to those unlikely successes.
RE: RE: To a Certain Extent  
Bernie : 12/3/2017 10:41 am : link
In comment 13716023 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13716011 Bernie said:


Quote:


revisionist history here. Gilbride was most effective when he modified his offense during the 2 Super Bowl runs. Both times, there was less deep vertical attempts and more short to middle passes that were mixed with a strong running game. But outside of those two runs, he and TC were infatuated with the big plays deep and all too often ignored the mid level stuff. Perhaps this was driven by a lack of a TE and improved with the emergence of Cruz in 2011. But that was always my frustration with a Gilbride offense.

Having said that, I despise this current offense. Throw it to OBJ and pray. Ugh.



Modified his offense? I don't remember that at all.

Strong running game? Hardly in 2011. Dead last in the league. Good coaching and gameplanning, and a powerful runners in Bradshaw and Jacobs allowed some "effective" running, but it was hardly a strong running game.

No mid to short game? Again, disagree, there were lots of hot reads to slants and 10 yard crossing routes. Also the back shoulder fade at 15 yards or so was a staple.



Late to respond. You misunderstood what I was saying. The way the offense was run during each playoff run was modified, not necessarily the way the offense was run throughout those respective seasons.
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