Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner
 

Archived Thread

NFL Films tape guru Greg Cosell on Eli, Smith and Webb.

truebluelarry : 12/1/2017 9:49 am
Greg Cosell is the #1 guy for pro football analysis, and I listen to him religiously every Thursday morning on SIRIUS NFL radio with Ross Tucker as I drive in to work.

His analysis on the Giants QB situation is objective and focused strictly to on-the-field performance, and I felt it was worthy of transcribing here [first time I've done it, did the best I could].

The link to the entire interview is at the bottom of the post. I highly recommend listening to it.

Quote:


Cosell on Eli the player: “It’s a bad offense, and has been for a while, and there’s many factors that go into that, and the QB bears the brunt of it. That’s just the reality of life in the NFL. I would say that it’s a team with a poor OL. It’s a team that can’t run the football, and Eli is a ‘dependent’ QB – Eli is dependent on the rest of the team to be successful. So right now, the ‘dependent’ parts are totally lacking, and he can’t be successful on any kind of consistent basis. It’s not a function of if he’s lost his ability to throw a football, he’s not lost his ability to understand the game and control a game at the line of scrimmage. He’s not lost his ability, but his style of QB’ing...he’s a ‘dependent’ player. There’s nothing for him to depend on right now within an offense that’s bad in every single area.”

Cosell on Eli comparisons to other players: “What is Eli Manning as a QB? He is primarily a pocket QB. He’s not a QB who is going to make a lot of second-reaction plays. If you’re primarily a pocket QB, you’re mostly relying on the structure, timing and rhythm of the play calls to be effective. Within that, there’s obviously progression reading...meaning there’s the ability to go from ‘one’ to ‘two’ to ‘three’...there ‘what do you do pre-snap’ – which I think Eli throughout his career has been outstanding at, just as his brother was, Tom Brady is, just as Drew Brees is, I think he’s been very, very good at that. But, when all is said and done, if he’s not relatively protected well, and does not have some semblance of a run game, and does not have a quality wide receiving corps, then his efficiency will drop dramatically...and that’s where the Giants have been the last year and a half or so. Now we can get into a debate of the structure of Ben McAdoo’s offense which is essentially the same offense that they run in Green Bay where he came from, but look at what happens in Green Bay, look at how many second-reaction, improvisational plays Aaron Rodgers makes. That’s Aaron Rodgers career – more than the structured part. He’s a jazz musician: Eli’s a classical pianist. Eli requires everything to be in place to play at a high level.”

Cosell on Eli’s physical skills: “What I think Eli has developed over the last number of years – he’s always had it to some degree but the last couple of years it’s been exacerbated , largely a function of the fact he does not trust his OL – Eli has had somewhat of a tendency to pull away from his throws. Early in his career though his great years it wasn’t terrible, but he still had that tendency, and it just gets worse when you’re not comfortable with your OL. Now, what happens when you’re a QB - you’re expecting pressure, you’re waiting for the pressure, you know it’s coming, so you’re just waiting for it. It’s hard to play QB like that, particularly as a pure-pocket player.”

Cosell on Geno Smith being ‘salvageable’: “I do (think he is), but I would add I don’t think it would be within this offense. I guess that would come across and a knock on this offense, but I’ve always thought Geno was a very good thrower, I’ve always thought Geno needed things as defined as they possibly could be...in other words, I think if you put Geno in a Kyle Shannahan or Sean McVay offense, he’d have a chance. I’m not saying he’d make it and be great because we don’t know that, but I think he needs things clearly defined, and I don’t know that he’s been in an offense that’s really done that well for him, but he’s a terrific thrower, he’s got movement, he’s obviously thrown a lot of bad interceptions – perhaps he doesn’t see things clearly, that’s hard to know what he sees and doesn’t see - but he certainly has an NFL QB skill set.”

Cosell on Davis Webb: “I didn’t see a ton of him in the preseason because I didn’t think he was going to play. I thought (coming out of college) in all respects he was a very typical ‘air raid’, shotgun/spread QB who needed to be coached and in some ways retrained in the mechanics of the position. I thought everything about him had to be ‘speeded up’ – which is very often the case with ‘air raid’ QBs. That happened with Jared Goff, who this year looks so much quicker in everything he does – due to coaching – than he did a year ago. So Webb, needed to me, to be taught the footwork and rhythm needed to drop back from under center. Balance needed to be taught. But I think that if you talk about his skill set, of throwing the football, I think that he has that skill set, and that is some ways I thought that he had a pretty high ceiling, but I knew that it would take time. Now again, then you get into who’s doing the coaching, what the offense is, I’m not there every day, its hard to know. But I think he would have a chance to be a quality starting QB. Again, I don’t know if they see him...that whole organization could have a whole new group of people coming in...we don’t know the answer to that.”



Ross Tucker-Greg Cosell podcast - ( New Window )
Thanks for the link, Larry  
Greg from LI : 12/1/2017 10:01 am : link
Cosell is always must-read material. Love his work.
Great read.  
Keith : 12/1/2017 10:04 am : link
He puts it perfectly, IMO. Well said Mr Cosell.
Thanks for posting this  
rocco8112 : 12/1/2017 10:06 am : link
Conclusions: Eli can still play and thro, but he needs an offense to actually lead down the field.

Eli is a pocket passer.

The Giants can not run, pass protect and have no WR'S.

Eli can not improvise like Rodgers.

Nice write up, but nothing new here for anyone who is paying attention.

I don't like the word dependent. Sure Eli needs an offense to actually lead to the end zone. He can not throw or pass to himself.



Great stuff, thanks for posting this.  
Section331 : 12/1/2017 10:11 am : link
Can't argue with anything he has to say, although, while I agree with Cosell that Eli is dependent on a functional OL, he has shown that he can excel without a running game. In 2011, Eli's best season, the running game was dead last in the league. Other than that, excellent analysis.

I was also really interested on his take on Webb. That would be my response to all the Sean McVay doubters, look what he has done with Goff. Do the Giants have the braintrust to do that for Webb?
Am a fan of Cosell, agree with his analysis here.  
Dan in the Springs : 12/1/2017 10:12 am : link
Thanks for sharing.
This is  
NorwoodWideRight : 12/1/2017 10:16 am : link
excellent.
you may not like the word dependent  
Greg from LI : 12/1/2017 10:19 am : link
But it's entirely accurate. His point is that Eli cannot create and improvise on his own, hence his analogy of Rogers as a jazz sax player and Eli as a classical concert pianist.
" does not trust  
old man : 12/1/2017 10:21 am : link
his OL".
I've been saying that for 5 seasons and calling it David Carr-itis.
Thats on the GM for clusterfailing.
2017 Eli is not 2011 Eli, IMO.  
Keith : 12/1/2017 10:21 am : link
I am also of the belief, that Eli can't fix his biggest problem. I think this OL has made him gunshy and I'm not sure that will change at this point in his career. He's constantly looking at the rush(probably to protect his life) instead of down the field where he needs to be looking. I don't see this changing as he turns 38 years old, no matter who is playing on the line.
RE: you may not like the word dependent  
rocco8112 : 12/1/2017 10:27 am : link
In comment 13716094 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But it's entirely accurate. His point is that Eli cannot create and improvise on his own, hence his analogy of Rogers as a jazz sax player and Eli as a classical concert pianist.



The idea is team success, what good football team has QB that can do it all on their own?

It also downplays how hard it is to play QB. Most QB'S would fail even with a decent offense. It is very difficult to be a pro QB.

I think dependent is a poor word for it. He needs an offense actually lead on the field. He also compares Eli's strength to Brees and Brady. Two other pocket passers who have offenses to lead.

Finally, Eli has never been able to create with running and the Giants won two Super Bowls. I think dependent low balls how tough it is to be a good QB.

good stuff thanks Larry  
Victor in CT : 12/1/2017 10:27 am : link
........
RE: 2017 Eli is not 2011 Eli, IMO.  
rocco8112 : 12/1/2017 10:28 am : link
In comment 13716101 Keith said:
Quote:
I am also of the belief, that Eli can't fix his biggest problem. I think this OL has made him gunshy and I'm not sure that will change at this point in his career. He's constantly looking at the rush(probably to protect his life) instead of down the field where he needs to be looking. I don't see this changing as he turns 38 years old, no matter who is playing on the line.


Team that can run it, give Eli some consistency with protection and these habits will go away. Maybe we will get to see it if he hooks up with another team now that the Giants have thrown him out like morning trash.
RE: 2017 Eli is not 2011 Eli, IMO.  
UConn4523 : 12/1/2017 10:29 am : link
In comment 13716101 Keith said:
Quote:
I am also of the belief, that Eli can't fix his biggest problem. I think this OL has made him gunshy and I'm not sure that will change at this point in his career. He's constantly looking at the rush(probably to protect his life) instead of down the field where he needs to be looking. I don't see this changing as he turns 38 years old, no matter who is playing on the line.


You may be right, you may also be wrong. There really is no way to know until he's in a scenario that will allow it to be played out.
.  
arcarsenal : 12/1/2017 10:29 am : link
I feel exactly the same way about Eli as Cosell outlines here.

Good read.
RE: 2017 Eli is not 2011 Eli, IMO.  
an_idol_mind : 12/1/2017 10:31 am : link
In comment 13716101 Keith said:
Quote:
I am also of the belief, that Eli can't fix his biggest problem. I think this OL has made him gunshy and I'm not sure that will change at this point in his career. He's constantly looking at the rush(probably to protect his life) instead of down the field where he needs to be looking. I don't see this changing as he turns 38 years old, no matter who is playing on the line.


I disagree. I think the issue is a matter of trust. Eli has thrived when he trusts the players around him, and struggled when he doesn't.

He took the beating of his life over the course of 2013, but bounced back in 2014 and 2015 with two great seasons. I think putting him in a situation where the offensive line is at least average can lead to some more really good seasons. I just don't think that's going to happen with the Giants, because the front office has not put a high value on the offensive line since before Reese became GM.
I always thought that this 2012 piece by Cosell...  
Racer : 12/1/2017 10:33 am : link
..summed Eli up perfectly.

Thanks for posting, Larry.


Cosell '12: Eli's Arrived - ( New Window )
I don't disagree with the sentiment about Eli,  
Keith : 12/1/2017 10:33 am : link
but we are talkign about 38 year old Eli. Put him behind a good line, can he get past the 2-3 years of beatings he took. No 38 year old wants to be hit.
even when the protection has been average this year, though  
Greg from LI : 12/1/2017 10:34 am : link
He hasn't played particularly well. Yes, some of it is a result of the decimation of WRs, but that's not making him miss throws an NFL quarterback needs to hit.
RE: 2017 Eli is not 2011 Eli, IMO.  
Bill L : 12/1/2017 10:35 am : link
In comment 13716101 Keith said:
Quote:
I am also of the belief, that Eli can't fix his biggest problem. I think this OL has made him gunshy and I'm not sure that will change at this point in his career. He's constantly looking at the rush(probably to protect his life) instead of down the field where he needs to be looking. I don't see this changing as he turns 38 years old, no matter who is playing on the line.
There's no data to back up that statement. He is a function of his line but, since he's not had the opportunity to play behind one, there is absolutely no reason to state one way or the other whether he could or could not succeed (or change, as you put it). That's a "feeling" based conclusion, not an evidence-supported one.
Good read,  
Mad Mike : 12/1/2017 10:36 am : link
thanks for posting.
Great read thanks for posting...  
JCin332 : 12/1/2017 10:39 am : link
I agree w Rocco dependent is not a good word and but Cosell isn't using it like we think...



RE: even when the protection has been average this year, though  
Racer : 12/1/2017 10:42 am : link
In comment 13716139 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
He hasn't played particularly well. Yes, some of it is a result of the decimation of WRs, but that's not making him miss throws an NFL quarterback needs to hit.


As cnewk said over and over last year, they take turns fucking up and I'd say as a result he's just expecting a protection breakdown. He hasn't looked comfortable in the pocket in a close game against a 4+man rush in awhile.
But...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/1/2017 10:42 am : link
it is a cumulative effect:

Quote:
even when the protection has been average this year, though
Greg from LI : 10:34 am : link : reply
He hasn't played particularly well. Yes, some of it is a result of the decimation of WRs, but that's not making him miss throws an NFL quarterback needs to hit.


Trying to figure out when the protection is good and when it isn't is tough to do as a QB. If you've been pressured 4 passes in a row, you might rush it on the 5th, even if it isn't there.

Just look at how the play of Dak, alex Smith and Tyrod Taylor has been uneven as the season has gone along. You can't put Matt ryan in that group to - but to a lesser degree.

I think what hurts eli most is that in previous offenses, he'd have the occasional deep play to take some of the pressure off. Now, every pass is a short pass - there is nothing to keep the D honest, especially without a running game. We don't even take shots deep anymore by design. That's just idiotic.
Always respected Cosell and his scouting  
gmen9892 : 12/1/2017 10:43 am : link
Everything he is saying is pretty spot on. As a 36/37 year old QB, he is dependent on having the pieces around him and the right offense to succeed. Right now, he has neither. Draft Barkley, give him 2 more pieces on the OL, you will most likely see a different and more confident QB. I think this would be the same case for Big Ben, Rivers, Brady, and any other pocket passer at their age.
So he is basically saying that our system is shit...  
EricJ : 12/1/2017 10:44 am : link
and from there we bridge to the fact that the system was brought to us by Ben...and we promoted him to head coach.
He is 100% dead on  
arniefez : 12/1/2017 10:45 am : link
Hopefully Eli gets to go somewhere else and gets to have one more good run. I hope it's somewhere I'll enjoy rooting for him.
RE: RE: 2017 Eli is not 2011 Eli, IMO.  
gmenatlarge : 12/1/2017 10:55 am : link
In comment 13716134 an_idol_mind said:
Quote:
In comment 13716101 Keith said:


Quote:


I am also of the belief, that Eli can't fix his biggest problem. I think this OL has made him gunshy and I'm not sure that will change at this point in his career. He's constantly looking at the rush(probably to protect his life) instead of down the field where he needs to be looking. I don't see this changing as he turns 38 years old, no matter who is playing on the line.



I disagree. I think the issue is a matter of trust. Eli has thrived when he trusts the players around him, and struggled when he doesn't.

He took the beating of his life over the course of 2013, but bounced back in 2014 and 2015 with two great seasons. I think putting him in a situation where the offensive line is at least average can lead to some more really good seasons. I just don't think that's going to happen with the Giants, because the front office has not put a high value on the offensive line since before Reese became GM.


He can definitely bounce back, just look at his performance in last years playoff game, he was stepping into his passes and zipping the ball right on the money, only to be let down by his WRs.
RE: But...  
Bill L : 12/1/2017 10:56 am : link
In comment 13716178 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
it is a cumulative effect:



Quote:


even when the protection has been average this year, though
Greg from LI : 10:34 am : link : reply
He hasn't played particularly well. Yes, some of it is a result of the decimation of WRs, but that's not making him miss throws an NFL quarterback needs to hit.



Trying to figure out when the protection is good and when it isn't is tough to do as a QB. If you've been pressured 4 passes in a row, you might rush it on the 5th, even if it isn't there.

Just look at how the play of Dak, alex Smith and Tyrod Taylor has been uneven as the season has gone along. You can't put Matt ryan in that group to - but to a lesser degree.

I think what hurts eli most is that in previous offenses, he'd have the occasional deep play to take some of the pressure off. Now, every pass is a short pass - there is nothing to keep the D honest, especially without a running game. We don't even take shots deep anymore by design. That's just idiotic.
It's a Catch-22 though. HOw can you throw that deep play to keep the pressure off if you've never got time to throw a ball deep?
RE: I don't disagree with the sentiment about Eli,  
UConn4523 : 12/1/2017 10:56 am : link
In comment 13716136 Keith said:
Quote:
but we are talkign about 38 year old Eli. Put him behind a good line, can he get past the 2-3 years of beatings he took. No 38 year old wants to be hit.


No 22 year old wants to be hit either. Brady hates being hit, doesn’t stop him from being good.

I think Eli “getting killed” has been overblown. The offense he’s been in has been dysfunctional for years, so much so that you really can’t say one way or another how he’d adapt to playing in an offense with better protection and a running game. But logic says he would love it and learn to trust things again. He’s not stupid.
RE: RE: 2017 Eli is not 2011 Eli, IMO.  
Keith : 12/1/2017 10:58 am : link
In comment 13716147 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13716101 Keith said:


Quote:


I am also of the belief, that Eli can't fix his biggest problem. I think this OL has made him gunshy and I'm not sure that will change at this point in his career. He's constantly looking at the rush(probably to protect his life) instead of down the field where he needs to be looking. I don't see this changing as he turns 38 years old, no matter who is playing on the line.

There's no data to back up that statement. He is a function of his line but, since he's not had the opportunity to play behind one, there is absolutely no reason to state one way or the other whether he could or could not succeed (or change, as you put it). That's a "feeling" based conclusion, not an evidence-supported one.


This makes no sense. There is no data to back anything up in sports. Is there data that says Janoris would be a good CB on a different team? Is there data that says Odell will be a superstar in the NFL? What data are you looking for? He's a soon to be 38 year old QB who is gun shy. You can put 2 and 2 together and come to the conclusion, that there is a good chance he won't revert back to the 2011 version of Eli.
Peyton wasn’t gunshy  
UConn4523 : 12/1/2017 11:05 am : link
he just sucked and couldn’t make throws but he was definitely standing in the pocket post neck surgery.
I still have a hard time processing  
djm : 12/1/2017 11:08 am : link
that the Giants did so little to upgrade this running game since the David Wilson debacle. All they did since then was go through the obligatory methods--sign a vet JAG here, draft a mid round jag there....fucking assholes. All of them.
Running game  
giantfan2000 : 12/1/2017 11:08 am : link
our running game is not non existent

we had terrible running game at beginning of year
but since Sullivan has taken over our running game is decent

enough where play action is now effective

My beef with Eli is .. ok you are a pocket passer and our OL sucks
but you are veteran who still needs to protect the ball when you are sacked
these sack fumbles this year are out of control.
Thanks for transcribing  
Captplanet : 12/1/2017 11:10 am : link
I hope the Mara/Tisch listened to Cosell this morning. He basically indicted Reese, for not understanding the type of quarterback he has. You don't bring in an offense that does not match your best players skill set. No ol, no running game, no wr. As soon as the OL that Accorsi built, aged out. The giants have been doomed on Offense.
RE: I don't disagree with the sentiment about Eli,  
Britt in VA : 12/1/2017 11:10 am : link
In comment 13716136 Keith said:
Quote:
but we are talkign about 38 year old Eli. Put him behind a good line, can he get past the 2-3 years of beatings he took. No 38 year old wants to be hit.


He's 36. He'll be 37 at the end of the season.

Phil Simms took the Giants to an 11-5 record and the playoffs at age 38.
look at the playoffs  
UConn4523 : 12/1/2017 11:20 am : link
for 2017. Brees, Brady, Roethlisberger, maybe Rivers. All 35+ and 2 are over 38. The QB is protected now and more of them are going to play into their late 30's under the current rules.

Doesn't mean Eli will have success, but there's recent precedence when it comes to age. He's also more durable than any named mentioned above.
RE: look at the playoffs  
Bill L : 12/1/2017 11:21 am : link
In comment 13716311 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
for 2017. Brees, Brady, Roethlisberger, maybe Rivers. All 35+ and 2 are over 38. The QB is protected now and more of them are going to play into their late 30's under the current rules.

Doesn't mean Eli will have success, but there's recent precedence when it comes to age. He's also more durable than any named mentioned above.
Or you can just say he will be 38 and therefore must fail.
RE: RE: RE: 2017 Eli is not 2011 Eli, IMO.  
Section331 : 12/1/2017 11:23 am : link
In comment 13716243 Keith said:
Quote:


This makes no sense. There is no data to back anything up in sports. Is there data that says Janoris would be a good CB on a different team? Is there data that says Odell will be a superstar in the NFL? What data are you looking for? He's a soon to be 38 year old QB who is gun shy. You can put 2 and 2 together and come to the conclusion, that there is a good chance he won't revert back to the 2011 version of Eli.


The 2011 Eli is never coming back, but that is an unfair comparison. It's like signing Adrian Peterson and expecting him, at 34, to rush for 2,000 yards. That doesn't mean that Eli still can't be an effective QB in the right situation.

While I agree somewhat with your assessment that he may be gunshy, I don't see it in his eye level, to me, he keeps his eyes downfield. Where I see it is in his feet. He anticipates pressure and loses his balance. Qb's who lose eye level, IMO, are really hard to fix. Eli has fixed his footwork before. In 2014, Danny Langsdorf worked on Eli's footwork after his 27-INT 2013 season, and Eli had a terrific year, even if the team didn't.
Reading Cosell  
Reb8thVA : 12/1/2017 11:25 am : link
is just further indictment against Jerry Reese.
RE:  
Paulie Walnuts : 12/1/2017 11:28 am : link
In comment 13716100 old man said:
Quote:
his OL".
I've been saying that for 5 seasons and calling it David Carr-itis.
Thats on the GM for clusterfailing.


Yessir

the OL was old in 2011 even.. and Reese did shit

in the end, the 2011 pick of Prince should have been an OT
When evaluating Eli Manning...  
Chris684 : 12/1/2017 12:03 pm : link
Why does it always seem to be forgotten that in the biggest game this team has played in in the last 5 seasons, Eli was the only player who showed up offensively.

He was throwing darts all over Lambeau Field as recent as earlier this calendar year.
RE: When evaluating Eli Manning...  
Victor in CT : 12/1/2017 12:07 pm : link
In comment 13716421 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Why does it always seem to be forgotten that in the biggest game this team has played in in the last 5 seasons, Eli was the only player who showed up offensively.

He was throwing darts all over Lambeau Field as recent as earlier this calendar year.


Excellent point
RE: RE: RE: 2017 Eli is not 2011 Eli, IMO.  
fireitup77 : 12/1/2017 12:18 pm : link
In comment 13716243 Keith said:
Quote:
In comment 13716147 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 13716101 Keith said:


Quote:


I am also of the belief, that Eli can't fix his biggest problem. I think this OL has made him gunshy and I'm not sure that will change at this point in his career. He's constantly looking at the rush(probably to protect his life) instead of down the field where he needs to be looking. I don't see this changing as he turns 38 years old, no matter who is playing on the line.

There's no data to back up that statement. He is a function of his line but, since he's not had the opportunity to play behind one, there is absolutely no reason to state one way or the other whether he could or could not succeed (or change, as you put it). That's a "feeling" based conclusion, not an evidence-supported one.



This makes no sense. There is no data to back anything up in sports. Is there data that says Janoris would be a good CB on a different team? Is there data that says Odell will be a superstar in the NFL? What data are you looking for? He's a soon to be 38 year old QB who is gun shy. You can put 2 and 2 together and come to the conclusion, that there is a good chance he won't revert back to the 2011 version of Eli.


You can keep saying he is 38 but he is really only 36.....
RE: RE: I don't disagree with the sentiment about Eli,  
HomerJones45 : 12/1/2017 12:24 pm : link
In comment 13716279 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13716136 Keith said:


Quote:


but we are talkign about 38 year old Eli. Put him behind a good line, can he get past the 2-3 years of beatings he took. No 38 year old wants to be hit.



He's 36. He'll be 37 at the end of the season.

Phil Simms took the Giants to an 11-5 record and the playoffs at age 38.
There are two reasons championship qb's need to be replaced: their arms go or they can't stay healthy. Neither is the case with Eli. I cannot think of a reason a HOF or near HOF qb got replaced when it was not one of those two situations.
RE: 2017 Eli is not 2011 Eli, IMO.  
njm : 12/1/2017 12:30 pm : link
In comment 13716101 Keith said:
Quote:
I am also of the belief, that Eli can't fix his biggest problem. I think this OL has made him gunshy and I'm not sure that will change at this point in his career. He's constantly looking at the rush(probably to protect his life) instead of down the field where he needs to be looking. I don't see this changing as he turns 38 years old, no matter who is playing on the line.


You seem to be saying Eli couldn't adapt to a clean pocket. I disagree.
RE: When evaluating Eli Manning...  
gmen9892 : 12/1/2017 12:36 pm : link
In comment 13716421 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Why does it always seem to be forgotten that in the biggest game this team has played in in the last 5 seasons, Eli was the only player who showed up offensively.

He was throwing darts all over Lambeau Field as recent as earlier this calendar year.


+1 Thats the thing that doesnt get enough mention around here either. The Giants WR/TE group is leading the league in drop %. Not just in the bottom half or anything, worst in the league. It was a huge issue last year and one of the main reasons we lost that GB game. Who knows what happens if OBJ and Shepard make those very catchable plays.
Nothing at all groundbreaking here about what Cosell said  
Jim in Forest Hills : 12/1/2017 12:41 pm : link
Feel like thats been hashed through BBI a 1000 times.

The big question is how did Mara/Reese/McAdoo not see this?
FMIC  
crick n NC : 12/1/2017 1:18 pm : link
Nailed it. I keep seeing fans say, "well he hasn't made the throws when he's had time" those fans are totally ignoring that factor. Players aren't just robots, why do you think it's important to get hits and pressures on the qb? It disrupts timing.

By  
crick n NC : 12/1/2017 1:21 pm : link
"that factor" I'm referring to the affect hits, pressures, sacks have on qb when it becomes the norm
RE: Nothing at all groundbreaking here about what Cosell said  
Brown Recluse : 12/1/2017 1:23 pm : link
In comment 13716494 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
Feel like thats been hashed through BBI a 1000 times.

The big question is how did Mara/Reese/McAdoo not see this?


People like to say that fans should just trust the coaches and the front office since they are the ones that are there every day. But BBI has been making this front office and coaching staff look inept for the while now. This fan base is not stupid.
RE: When evaluating Eli Manning...  
Rjanyg : 12/1/2017 8:27 pm : link
In comment 13716421 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Why does it always seem to be forgotten that in the biggest game this team has played in in the last 5 seasons, Eli was the only player who showed up offensively.

He was throwing darts all over Lambeau Field as recent as earlier this calendar year.


Outstanding point!
RE: RE: RE: I don't disagree with the sentiment about Eli,  
Rjanyg : 12/1/2017 8:29 pm : link
In comment 13716462 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 13716279 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13716136 Keith said:


Quote:


but we are talkign about 38 year old Eli. Put him behind a good line, can he get past the 2-3 years of beatings he took. No 38 year old wants to be hit.



He's 36. He'll be 37 at the end of the season.

Phil Simms took the Giants to an 11-5 record and the playoffs at age 38.

There are two reasons championship qb's need to be replaced: their arms go or they can't stay healthy. Neither is the case with Eli. I cannot think of a reason a HOF or near HOF qb got replaced when it was not one of those two situations.


True stuff
Very interesting stuff in that 2012 Cosell analysis...  
Dan in the Springs : 12/1/2017 8:56 pm : link
Here's what stood out to me as a fan trying to figure out what's going wrong with this offense, and Eli in particular.

Quote:
Against zone coverage, voids are more constricted and close more quickly; against man coverage, the area in which to place the ball is much smaller. Manning never struggled with that transition. The willingness to make stick throws into tight windows is a positive in the NFL, not a negative. There’s no question he’s thrown some poor interceptions in his career, but he’s also pulled the trigger and completed balls on passes other quarterbacks would not have even attempted.


Eli was always a gunslinger, and he also was a bit of a turnover machine. High numbers of completions, TD's, yards, and INT's were the norm.

The new offense may be what's leading Eli to throw the terrible 4 yard crossing routes on 3rd and 8. I have another thought about it though.

Could it be the heavy emphasis that Coach McAdoo has placed on "protecting the Duke"? Between McAdoo's emphasis on not turning the ball over, Sully's conservative-leaning approach to offensive game-planning, and perhaps Cignetti's QB coaching, is there good reason to believe that Eli has been coached into thinking it's better to take the safe throw underneath than it is to try the longer throws downfield?

I'm not 100% sure it's the scheme. I think McAdoo has developed a scheme that provides options underneath when coverage on top is less than ideal, and I think that's okay if you can turn those into a real threat for a big play (like OBJ can). With our other backfield/TE threats though, those plays aren't being made. As a result, breaking the cover-two requires the willingness to take shots downfield anyway, into tight coverage. The throw described from XLVI to Manningham should still be there, but how rare have those attempts been over the past couple of years?

Not meaning to defend the system - which I believe has already been solved by NFL defenses and lacks creativity. I'm simply saying that perhaps as bad as the system is, one of the worst things that has happened to Eli is that his willingness to take risks and make throws downfield into tight coverage has been coached out of him.
this confirms that the Giants fucked up  
SHO'NUFF : 12/2/2017 4:14 pm : link
they screwed Eli.
RE: Very interesting stuff in that 2012 Cosell analysis...  
crick n NC : 12/2/2017 4:23 pm : link
In comment 13717317 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
The throw described from XLVI to Manningham should still be there, but how rare have those attempts been over the past couple of years?


Dan, I thought the Patriots were playing c2m vs c2z on that play. C2Z i understand fitting that ball where the CB's zone responsibilities end and where the safety responsibilities begin, but vs c2m your corner plays the trail why the safety takes away over the top, that is a very difficult and not probable throw, unless the corner trails too much too soon not allowing the safety enough time to get to his spot. Eli said he got the safety to cheat over a little to the middle because he started the play out looking to his (manning's right)
RE: RE: you may not like the word dependent  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/2/2017 4:52 pm : link
In comment 13716122 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
In comment 13716094 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


But it's entirely accurate. His point is that Eli cannot create and improvise on his own, hence his analogy of Rogers as a jazz sax player and Eli as a classical concert pianist.




The idea is team success, what good football team has QB that can do it all on their own?


If you read what the author is trying to say, nobody is suggesting he does it all on his own. But you just alluded to it. It's a TEAM sport. If the other parts aren't functioning as they should, the QB is going to suffer right alongside everyone else.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't disagree with the sentiment about Eli,  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/2/2017 4:53 pm : link
In comment 13717268 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
In comment 13716462 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


In comment 13716279 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13716136 Keith said:


Quote:


but we are talkign about 38 year old Eli. Put him behind a good line, can he get past the 2-3 years of beatings he took. No 38 year old wants to be hit.



He's 36. He'll be 37 at the end of the season.

Phil Simms took the Giants to an 11-5 record and the playoffs at age 38.

There are two reasons championship qb's need to be replaced: their arms go or they can't stay healthy. Neither is the case with Eli. I cannot think of a reason a HOF or near HOF qb got replaced when it was not one of those two situations.



True stuff


You can't? I can. The Packers got rid of Favre.
RE: When evaluating Eli Manning...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/2/2017 4:59 pm : link
In comment 13716421 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Why does it always seem to be forgotten that in the biggest game this team has played in in the last 5 seasons, Eli was the only player who showed up offensively.

He was throwing darts all over Lambeau Field as recent as earlier this calendar year.


Has he done that much this year?

It's great that he dialed it up for that game. He needs to be that player every week with the current state of the team. He's past the point in his career where he can put everyone on his shoulders. He did that in 2011. It was never really the thing that he's been known for. Very unfair to expect him to turn into that on the front steps of 40.
RE: Very interesting stuff in that 2012 Cosell analysis...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/2/2017 5:04 pm : link
In comment 13717317 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
Here's what stood out to me as a fan trying to figure out what's going wrong with this offense, and Eli in particular.



Quote:


Against zone coverage, voids are more constricted and close more quickly; against man coverage, the area in which to place the ball is much smaller. Manning never struggled with that transition. The willingness to make stick throws into tight windows is a positive in the NFL, not a negative. There’s no question he’s thrown some poor interceptions in his career, but he’s also pulled the trigger and completed balls on passes other quarterbacks would not have even attempted.



Eli was always a gunslinger, and he also was a bit of a turnover machine. High numbers of completions, TD's, yards, and INT's were the norm.

The new offense may be what's leading Eli to throw the terrible 4 yard crossing routes on 3rd and 8. I have another thought about it though.

Could it be the heavy emphasis that Coach McAdoo has placed on "protecting the Duke"? Between McAdoo's emphasis on not turning the ball over, Sully's conservative-leaning approach to offensive game-planning, and perhaps Cignetti's QB coaching, is there good reason to believe that Eli has been coached into thinking it's better to take the safe throw underneath than it is to try the longer throws downfield?

I'm not 100% sure it's the scheme. I think McAdoo has developed a scheme that provides options underneath when coverage on top is less than ideal, and I think that's okay if you can turn those into a real threat for a big play (like OBJ can). With our other backfield/TE threats though, those plays aren't being made. As a result, breaking the cover-two requires the willingness to take shots downfield anyway, into tight coverage. The throw described from XLVI to Manningham should still be there, but how rare have those attempts been over the past couple of years?

Not meaning to defend the system - which I believe has already been solved by NFL defenses and lacks creativity. I'm simply saying that perhaps as bad as the system is, one of the worst things that has happened to Eli is that his willingness to take risks and make throws downfield into tight coverage has been coached out of him.


It's a very legitimate point to discuss. The entire NFL has become so incredibly risk-averse and scared of turnovers. So much weight has been placed on efficiency stats that players who take risks get that coached out of them with schemes designed to pay comparatively safe football, and guys who turn the ball over tend to get benched. There's no room in the current state of the NFL for "gunslingers". You remember the heat Eli took nationally while playing for Tom Coughlin. He'd always post big yardage numbers and 25-30 touchdowns, but people would ridicule him for completion percentage and interception. If he had another last name, or player for a different team, he may not have been given the chance to start for as long as he did. He was getting the 'bust' word thrown around him right up until the last few weeks of the 2007 regular season.
Back to the Corner