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NFT: Presidential groping ...

Manny in CA : 12/1/2017 3:18 pm
Presently, there are six living Presidents - HW Bush, GW Bush, Clinton, Carter, Obama and Trump.

Half of them have been accused of groping people - Clinton, Trump and at 93, even HW Bush. So much for Presidential decorum !

Several years ago, the computer software development company where I was working held a Sexual Harassment Seminar. There was about 400 people in the conference room.

It was a very international company, with many foreign guests who were taking technical taring courses. The speaker introduced the topic and noted that this may may have sounded very strange and unusual to some foreigners.

He went on to note that the practice of casual butt pinching of women on the street is not unusual in some countries. "in France, it's called l'amour". I've never been there, is that true ?
My niece did a semester abroad in Italy  
njm : 12/1/2017 3:28 pm : link
Let's just say things are different than in the US.
so to recap  
Rocky369 : 12/1/2017 3:36 pm : link
you're planning your next vacation and hoping to go somewhere to get your ass pinched?
I admire the effort to not just try and skirt around the ban  
mfsd : 12/1/2017 3:40 pm : link
on political discussions with a sly passive aggressive comment on a thread about a different topic, but rather go right in the front door with all guns blazing!!
you  
Les in TO : 12/1/2017 3:41 pm : link
should try that in Saudi Arabia.
OP reminded me of the famous photo  
Heisenberg : 12/1/2017 3:54 pm : link


"An American Girl in Italy" 1951 - still timely today.
What I'm saying is that ...  
Manny in CA : 12/1/2017 4:04 pm : link

I still think that we (as Americans) have a sense of right and wrong (called shame). - but steadily losing it.

When many in foreign countries that were absolutely insane for calling out Clinton for his antics in the White House, we knew he was an dirty scoundrel (and eventually he apologized).

Now we've got another scumbag (Trump) in the White House. I don't think he'll ever apologize for anything.


With all due respect to HW Bush he's senile and  
Blue21 : 12/1/2017 4:07 pm : link
anyone who knows about that stage and effect that can have on one's life would understand he's not in the right frame. I'm sure many nursing home nurses have whoppers of stories they could tell.
What the Clintons did to Women...  
BamaBlue : 12/1/2017 4:11 pm : link
is not even in the same league for outrage. This is not the place to re-hash those gory details... and I'm not going to change your soda straw field of view.
Shame is..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/1/2017 4:16 pm : link
an interesting comment. The Japanese would laugh at our sense of shame.

If you really wanted to start a thread on this subject, you should probably instead posed it as people in power tend to abuse power in one way or another across all countries and cultures.

Trying to posit Americans as morally better or knowing right from wrong and sprinkling some bullshit political comment in is just that - bullshit.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
BigBlue2112 : 12/1/2017 4:17 pm : link
.
RE: With all due respect to HW Bush he's senile and  
BMac : 12/1/2017 4:17 pm : link
In comment 13716980 Blue21 said:
Quote:
anyone who knows about that stage and effect that can have on one's life would understand he's not in the right frame. I'm sure many nursing home nurses have whoppers of stories they could tell.


Reports of this behavior go back to the early 90s...not age related.
^^^^^^^^  
BigBlue2112 : 12/1/2017 4:18 pm : link
was for BamaBlue's comment
What keeps men from "helping themselves" ....  
Manny in CA : 12/1/2017 6:28 pm : link

Indiscriminately - shame (if you have any), else getting punched in the nose, literally (or in the pocket book).

The pile of delusionally empowered A-holes will get bigger, in the days to come.
RE: Shame is..  
mfsd : 12/1/2017 6:55 pm : link
In comment 13717001 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
an interesting comment. The Japanese would laugh at our sense of shame.

If you really wanted to start a thread on this subject, you should probably instead posed it as people in power tend to abuse power in one way or another across all countries and cultures.

Trying to posit Americans as morally better or knowing right from wrong and sprinkling some bullshit political comment in is just that - bullshit.


Well said
Interesting you bring up the Japanese ...  
Manny in CA : 12/1/2017 7:28 pm : link

They're the ones who bombed Pear Harbor in a surprise attack. I've seen photos of their diplomats in Washington DC, right after that happened - with figuratively their "tails between their legs" as they left the country.

Like I said, before, many around the world (not just the Japanese) openly laughed and mocked the US as it struggled to deal with Clinton -
"so what's the big deal ?"

Seems to me, the Office of the President of the United States deserves better; "just saying".
I guess Manny has decided that this week has been too much  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/1/2017 7:51 pm : link
and wants to make sure he torches himself on the way out the door.
In Paris its common  
Eli Wilson : 12/1/2017 8:02 pm : link
My wife had her crotch grabbed on the subway more than once while in a trip there in college.
Thank you, Eli ...  
Manny in CA : 12/1/2017 8:46 pm : link

For answering my question - a real simple one.

Referring back to the seminar - Here it's crude and unacceptable, there it's just "l'amour"
RE: you  
Ira : 12/1/2017 8:48 pm : link
In comment 13716926 Les in TO said:
Quote:
should try that in Saudi Arabia.


In Saudia Arabia, they might arrest the girl who got pinched.
RE: Shame is..  
christian : 12/1/2017 10:27 pm : link
In comment 13717001 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
an interesting comment. The Japanese would laugh at our sense of shame.

If you really wanted to start a thread on this subject, you should probably instead posed it as people in power tend to abuse power in one way or another across all countries and culture.


So then stear it that way. Grown ups can have conversations about political figures without it being about politics.

There is nothing political about the thread starter, and you know that.

The decorum and standards of our leaders is a vibrant and topical story through the ages. It's fascinating to me how power and corruption has been tolerated at the pinnacle of our leadership.

It's weird how tolerating as a society we've been. Especially in cases where that behavior violated the ethics and morality leaders have represented.
My point..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/1/2017 11:00 pm : link
is that power and corruption are rampant throughout the world. There isn't a geographic area immune from it.

Whether it is an Islamic cleric, an African President, a South American dictator, a US politician, etc.
Excellent points, Christian ...  
Manny in CA : 12/1/2017 11:38 pm : link

Fatman, I have no argument that abuse of power and corruption can be seen in all societies. The problem arises when it's "brushed under the carpet" (sacrificing principle) for the sake of the mundane.

And what is the cause ? - The loss of shame. Without it, there are no fences, no remorse. We lose our humanity.

Even the animals are more ethical at that point, they fight to gain the right to mate, kill to eat, and that's basically it - not to feed any egos.



Manny your from California  
Manning10 : 12/2/2017 6:44 am : link
I don't know what the hell goes on at the State but its not America.
Yes Clinton was/is a scumbag who the Press and Academia gave a Pass too because he was a Democrat.
RE: Manny your from California  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 12/2/2017 7:42 am : link
In comment 13717514 Manning10 said:
Quote:
I don't know what the hell goes on at the State but its not America.
Yes Clinton was/is a scumbag who the Press and Academia gave a Pass too because he was a Democrat.


California isn't America? Clinton was given a pass? A whole lot of stupid in that post.
RE: Manny your from California  
Modus Operandi : 12/2/2017 8:19 am : link
In comment 13717514 Manning10 said:
Quote:
I don't know what the hell goes on at the State but its not America.
Yes Clinton was/is a scumbag who the Press and Academia gave a Pass too because he was a Democrat.


Manny is Manny. But in the very least, he knows the 50 US States. You clearly do not.
RE: RE: Manny your from California  
Bill L : 12/2/2017 8:38 am : link
In comment 13717547 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
In comment 13717514 Manning10 said:


Quote:


I don't know what the hell goes on at the State but its not America.
Yes Clinton was/is a scumbag who the Press and Academia gave a Pass too because he was a Democrat.



California isn't America? Clinton was given a pass? A whole lot of stupid in that post.
i think Clinton would be an interesting topic actually, it on a different board. For this thread, Iíll just say I disagree with you and that A Clinton v Trump/Franken/Weinstein/later/etc discussion on how we view sexual assault either through time or ideological prisms would be fascinating IMO
RE: RE: Manny your from California  
Bill L : 12/2/2017 8:41 am : link
In comment 13717561 Modus Operandi said:
Quote:
In comment 13717514 Manning10 said:


Quote:


I don't know what the hell goes on at the State but its not America.
Yes Clinton was/is a scumbag who the Press and Academia gave a Pass too because he was a Democrat.



Manny is Manny. But in the very least, he knows the 50 US States. You clearly do not.
i donít thi k that he was speaking in a geographical sense. I could be wrong. I assumed he was trying to make a dig based upon the perception that California is sometimes perceived as being distinct, maybe value-wise, maybe culturally, from much of mainstream America.
RE: RE: RE: Manny your from California  
Modus Operandi : 12/2/2017 8:44 am : link
In comment 13717576 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 13717547 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


In comment 13717514 Manning10 said:


Quote:


I don't know what the hell goes on at the State but its not America.
Yes Clinton was/is a scumbag who the Press and Academia gave a Pass too because he was a Democrat.



California isn't America? Clinton was given a pass? A whole lot of stupid in that post.

i think Clinton would be an interesting topic actually, it on a different board. For this thread, Iíll just say I disagree with you and that A Clinton v Trump/Franken/Weinstein/later/etc discussion on how we view sexual assault either through time or ideological prisms would be fascinating IMO


Does that also include Bush Sr., whose groping escapades are regularly dismissed due to dementia here? Despite his being a sitting president at the time?

I think people certainly do view these stories through an ideological prism. I also happen to think one side is more intellectually honest about some things. It's not my side, unfortunately.
Also  
Modus Operandi : 12/2/2017 8:48 am : link
If we are going to start dropping states from the union willy nilly, I'd suggest we start with Florida. Or Iowa. I doubt Iowans can even locate their "state" on a map.
Include whoever you want.  
Bill L : 12/2/2017 8:48 am : link
Just from an abstract perspective I am intrigued by how our political philosophies alter even our Ten Commandment values. Itís weird. But I canít say that sometimes I donít see it in myself.
RE: Include whoever you want.  
Modus Operandi : 12/2/2017 8:49 am : link
In comment 13717588 Bill L said:
Quote:
Just from an abstract perspective I am intrigued by how our political philosophies alter even our Ten Commandment values. Itís weird. But I canít say that sometimes I donít see it in myself.


So you're with me on Iowa...
RE: Also  
Bill L : 12/2/2017 8:49 am : link
In comment 13717587 Modus Operandi said:
Quote:
If we are going to start dropping states from the union willy nilly, I'd suggest we start with Florida. Or Iowa. I doubt Iowans can even locate their "state" on a map.
that might be because they consistent rank at or near the top of public school education.
RE: RE: Include whoever you want.  
Bill L : 12/2/2017 8:52 am : link
In comment 13717589 Modus Operandi said:
Quote:
In comment 13717588 Bill L said:


Quote:


Just from an abstract perspective I am intrigued by how our political philosophies alter even our Ten Commandment values. Itís weird. But I canít say that sometimes I donít see it in myself.



So you're with me on Iowa...
ive never been to Iowa but the few people Iíve met from there have been nauseatingly proud of being Iowan. If it werenít for Idaho, I would have thought that Iowa was the cult state.
Holy crap Manny  
idiotsavant : 12/2/2017 9:54 am : link
It's not -shame- that keeps us from exploiting people.

It's compassion. Humanity. Fellow feeling.

One might be horny, but their compassion for fellow humans is the over riding factor.

Shame is a useless feeling. It's what you feel when your mama yells at you for soiling your sheets.

Openess of sexuality or showing skin (maybe what fatman alluded to from his trips to Japan...if only, sigh) has nothing to do with exploitations or not.

People don't turn to cruelty because there is no porno on the subway.

People who exploit get -turned on- by cruelty, bullying, intimidation, cheating and power and have no compassion to begin with. Ok. Maybe shame is the only thing that reaches -them.

But for the rest of us it's love and compassion for our fellow humans.
RE: Holy crap Manny  
Modus Operandi : 12/2/2017 10:01 am : link
In comment 13717644 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
It's not -shame- that keeps us from exploiting people.

It's compassion. Humanity. Fellow feeling.

One might be horny, but their compassion for fellow humans is the over riding factor.

Shame is a useless feeling. It's what you feel when your mama yells at you for soiling your sheets.

Openess of sexuality or showing skin (maybe what fatman alluded to from his trips to Japan...if only, sigh) has nothing to do with exploitations or not.

People don't turn to cruelty because there is no porno on the subway.

People who exploit get -turned on- by cruelty, bullying, intimidation, cheating and power and have no compassion to begin with. Ok. Maybe shame is the only thing that reaches -them.

But for the rest of us it's love and compassion for our fellow humans.


Right. Compassion and love. Common themes in most all organized religions, I'm sure you'd agree.

Except there appears to be a direct correlation between sexual repression, cruelty, violence towards women, persecution of minorities (secular and otherwise) in virtually all countries that follow the strictest interpretation of their respective doctrines. Throughout history.

Yes. Any form of unified power  
idiotsavant : 12/2/2017 10:10 am : link
That's why certain careers and situations. Super valued rare type careers. Tend to have exploitation.

Visualise a pyramid greased with a mixture of K-Y and blood. People struggling to climb it.

Sports is probably next, by the way.

It's power. If 90% of the single mothers in a county are broke and starving, and the 7-11 is the only job, you can almost bet the manager leverages his position with power and cruelty. Shame doesn't stop that. Love and compassion on his part stops that.
RE: Yes. Any form of unified power  
Modus Operandi : 12/2/2017 10:15 am : link
Quote:
Visualise a pyramid greased with a mixture of K-Y and blood. People struggling to climb it.


Do I have to?
And Alabama  
XBRONX : 12/2/2017 10:17 am : link
is about to elect a child molester.
Take that another step farther  
idiotsavant : 12/2/2017 10:20 am : link
Shame (as a tool in intimates) may actually -cause- this problem.

Let's guess.

Did Harvey Weinstein's mother raise him with compassion and empathy?

Or did she make him feel inconsequential by using shame and power?

My - guess the second thing.

Shame may be passed on to the next person that way. As they may feel shame after being victimised.

Whereas if compassion is the magic thing, one would be less likely to blend power with sexuality?
RE: Take that another step farther  
Modus Operandi : 12/2/2017 10:46 am : link
In comment 13717660 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
Shame (as a tool in intimates) may actually -cause- this problem.

Let's guess.

Did Harvey Weinstein's mother raise him with compassion and empathy?

Or did she make him feel inconsequential by using shame and power?

My - guess the second thing.

Shame may be passed on to the next person that way. As they may feel shame after being victimised.

Whereas if compassion is the magic thing, one would be less likely to blend power with sexuality?


Very much a believer in Jung's duality. Life is complicated. Humans are flawed creatures and what we choose to do at ANY given time is seldom driven by conscience, compassion or depravity. It's driven by circumstance, perspective, potential repercussion, environment. Emotion Or lack of ability to mitigate.

How else can we explain the daily instances of good people doing terrible things? Men and women of cloth molesting children or turning a blind eye. Ethnic cleansing. The atrocities (and war crimes) of war committed by people who showed great compassion towards their own people? A mother that drives her children into a lake. A family man which fires several hundred bullets into a crowd of people in Las Vegas.

One of the most striking visuals for me illustrating this is Kubrick. The great and often overlooked scene in which Joker - the conscience of Full Metal Jacket - beats Pyle the hardest.
Those are good points Savant ...  
Manny in CA : 12/2/2017 11:17 am : link

When you reach out to (As old HW says "David cop-a-feel") you forget that that person is someone's mother or sister - at the moment, she's an object [compassion is absent].

But so is shame - Self respect is also sacrificed at the alter of naughty indulgence.
Thsnks guys  
idiotsavant : 12/2/2017 12:03 pm : link
I guess the thing about Jung, modus, may be that his own empathic channels were closed or otherwise damaged, and therefore he didn't include that part in what he considered 'environmental factors' ...as these particular ones were invisible to him.

That's why, whereas one lives and let lives, it not always best to let the empathically challenged make the rules ("this is how it works in Hollywood") or write the belief systems (Jung or the Diagnostic Manual).

This might be why  
idiotsavant : 12/2/2017 12:15 pm : link
In the absence of a sense of the invisible in our world view (empathic channels are invisible, the sacred is always invisible) a communities emotional currency may tend more towards power wins.

Maybe it's not that some are 'more bad' (after all, who would not want free poony?) but that some have been made blind to the invisible... And therefore why care?

That leaves open some obvious questions though:

there's groping  
PaulBlakeTSU : 12/2/2017 12:51 pm : link
and there's what Clinton and our current President are accused of doing.

A 90 year-old man copping a feel from a wheelchair doesn't compare to intentionally walking in on underage girls dressing, reaching under the table to shove his hand up womens' skirts, grabbing women by their pussies without consent, violently preying upon his wife as revenge for bad plastic surgery, and a whole host of other allegations.
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