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Lost in Reese firing- current draft picks no longer safe

Matt in SGS : 12/4/2017 9:06 pm
One thing which is kind of sad in this is that Reese did help put together 2 Super Bowl championship teams and had been with the organization for over 20 years. Maybe when some time passes, we should actually do an appreciation thread for what he has done for the team, but it's hard to do so this year.

That said, firing Reese is not something that we Giants fans have seen in a generation as with Young to Accorsi to Reese, Giants GMs were more like Supreme Court Justices, serve until they are gone. But there is one offshoot of this which we have not seen since Young took over, and that is a new critical eye looking at the current roster and talent. Specifically, a look at the draft picks.

It's human nature for a GM to give a preference to players that they drafted, particularly players picked in the first 2 days of the draft. With a new GM coming in, all that will change. Players can no longer potentially rest on their draft position. The new GM will not have that attachment, nor should he. That means a very critical eye on some players who might have been brought back or kept on the roster simply because Reese drafted them.

Off the top of my head, that would put Pugh and Richburg in a tougher spot going into free agency. That means Flowers will be judged for his play, not because he was a first rounder. Other guys like Jay Bromley figure in this equation too. And last but not least, even Odell.

This is a historic day for the Giants and a chance to turn around a malaise which has really been on this team since the 2012 season went sour. And I'd love to see another talent evaluator come in here and be brutally honest with what this roster has on it.
Good.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 12/4/2017 9:08 pm : link
No one on this roster should feel safe.
Kind of off topic..  
Sean : 12/4/2017 9:09 pm : link
but I saw a blurb today that Reese did NOT want to hire McAdoo. I found that very interesting.
A lot of his draft picks  
Peppers : 12/4/2017 9:09 pm : link
shouldn't be safe.

Starting with Eli Apple.
What the upcoming picks?  
robbieballs2003 : 12/4/2017 9:10 pm : link
Are we more willing to trade up or down? That'll be interesting.
I was thinking about the same thing.  
AnishPatel : 12/4/2017 9:11 pm : link
A new GM isn't attached to anyone. So he will probably look at every player with fresh eyes and not be biased. It will be interesting to see how many of the players mentioned are allowed to leave and take a few years and drafts to try to restock talent. Good thread Matt!
What about  
robbieballs2003 : 12/4/2017 9:11 pm : link
...
RE: A lot of his draft picks  
Matt in SGS : 12/4/2017 9:15 pm : link
In comment 13724731 Peppers said:
Quote:
shouldn't be safe.

Starting with Eli Apple.


Apple is a great case in point. The new GM won't care that he was taken high in the first round. If he's an immature head case who dogs it and the film doesn't lie, maybe we see more trades, similar to what the Eagles did after they decided to wipe the Chip Kelly stink off of them.
yes, I agree with that assessment  
fame56 : 12/4/2017 9:16 pm : link
and it will be interesting going forward. However, noone in their right mind is going to dismiss a talent like Odell Beckham.

Aside from some difficult personal behaviors, he is still one of the top 3 wide receivers in the league and gives us a much better chance of winning games when he is out there.

So he has more Terrell Owens than Jerry Rice in him, we can live with that and we should.
I wouldn't worry about Pugh and Richburg  
BillT : 12/4/2017 9:16 pm : link
Richburg has maybe been the biggest disappointment I can think of and Pugh, although a good enough player, can't stay healthy. Whether either stays or goes isn't that much of an issue.
Scholarships are expiring in 4 weeks  
The_Boss : 12/4/2017 9:17 pm : link
Good.
Pretty crazy that this is uncharted territory for most of us  
j_rud : 12/4/2017 9:18 pm : link
The Giants have never fired a GM in my lifetime, and I'm in my mid 30s. Hadn't even realized that until now.
27 Darian Thompson  
cosmicj : 12/4/2017 9:20 pm : link
Darian better play like his life depends on it the next few weeks.

Why  
Dragon : 12/4/2017 9:25 pm : link
Bring back any of these guys there are may five NFL worthy players on this roster.
You're right: It's good.  
CT Charlie : 12/4/2017 9:25 pm : link
The GM will weigh his own opinions with those of the coaches, without bias. I think the position coaches will have a huge input, as they should. The challenge, of course, is balancing a player's worth with his cost -- which is almost solely the job of the GM.
Odell isn't going anywhere.  
Boy Cord : 12/4/2017 9:26 pm : link
.
Interesting thread to watch  
Sammo85 : 12/4/2017 9:29 pm : link
The new GM might also decide to make a few examples out of the veterans too.

This end of season into offseason will be the busiest one for the Giants in a long time.

RE: Odell isn't going anywhere.  
Matt in SGS : 12/4/2017 9:32 pm : link
In comment 13724762 Boy Cord said:
Quote:
.


I doubt Odell is going to go anywhere as well. However, his ask for that contract might not get the traction he thinks and we will see where it goes from there.
By also firing Reese/Ben now, it sends a warning shot  
Diver_Down : 12/4/2017 9:33 pm : link
to the players that no man is safe. I think we will see some renewed vigor in the performance of certain players who feel that they might not have put their best performance on film.

Also, Tom Rock had an interesting tweet quoting Mara where John would like Odell to be a part of the Giants, but it is ultimately up to the new GM. Even though the new coach will have input on the roster, Mara was distinct in keeping the personnel powers separate from coaching.

We are in uncharted waters.
Not really an issue  
WillVAB : 12/4/2017 9:38 pm : link
There aren’t that many picks hanging around who could be on the chopping block.

I think the purge is the FAs Reese picked up who aren’t producing — the linebackers, Vereen, Dwayne Harris, Marshall, etc.
All bets are off  
Sneakers O'toole : 12/4/2017 9:39 pm : link
as they should be at this point. Whatever shape the next administration ends up taking, they need the freedom to build the team in their image. Can't do it any other way
Good points Matt  
Rjanyg : 12/4/2017 9:44 pm : link
There are about 10 guys in this roster that are pretty safe:
1. Engram
2. Shepard
3. Tomlinson
4. Snacks
5. Collins
6. OBJ
7. Gallman
8. Jenkins
9. Flowers
10. DeOssie

I could say Vernon, Eli, JPP, Webb, DRC, Apple could be safe, but between the cost and review of the game tape I could see trades or outright cuts.
I wouldn't think Flowers is safe.  
Diver_Down : 12/4/2017 9:52 pm : link
He has improved, but it is no guarantee that he plays LT next year. His salary for next year is still manageable at $2.4M. But it is likely that his 5th year option won't be picked up. By May, the team has to choose to elect or decline the 5th year option. Ereck's 5th year option would guarantee $14.4M. Unless he makes a quantum leap in his ability in the next 4 weeks, he'll never see that figure.
Good post Matt  
Danny Kanell : 12/4/2017 9:58 pm : link
As usual
More importantly  
WillVAB : 12/4/2017 10:19 pm : link
Some of these Reese picks that were handed starting jobs might have to actually earn them.
RE: Good points Matt  
robbieballs2003 : 12/4/2017 10:20 pm : link
In comment 13724789 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
There are about 10 guys in this roster that are pretty safe:
1. Engram
2. Shepard
3. Tomlinson
4. Snacks
5. Collins
6. OBJ
7. Gallman
8. Jenkins
9. Flowers
10. DeOssie

I could say Vernon, Eli, JPP, Webb, DRC, Apple could be safe, but between the cost and review of the game tape I could see trades or outright cuts.


You might want to pay attention to the salary cap.
RE: Kind of off topic..  
GiantGrit : 12/4/2017 10:50 pm : link
In comment 13724730 Sean said:
Quote:
but I saw a blurb today that Reese did NOT want to hire McAdoo. I found that very interesting.


where did you read that? Sounds like a worthwhile read.
Reese's drafting of Flowers and Apple  
Marty866b : 12/4/2017 11:02 pm : link
In the top 10 has set this team back years.
RE: Reese's drafting of Flowers and Apple  
smshmth8690 : 12/4/2017 11:19 pm : link
In comment 13724884 Marty866b said:
Quote:
In the top 10 has set this team back years.


May want to wait a bit before giving uo on Apple. He's still only 22 with a lot of potential. Maybe a new coach will be able to get him to focus on the game.
Letter L  
idiotsavant : 12/4/2017 11:23 pm : link
Linebackers and O linesmen.

Wouldn't be surprised to see a DE replaced.
The system they run on both sides of the ball  
larryflower37 : 12/5/2017 2:02 am : link
Might make a big difference in personal. Even guys you say are safe might not fit the system.
A new GM/coach could decide to run a 3-4 or switch to a power running game.
RE: RE: Reese's drafting of Flowers and Apple  
Diver_Down : 12/5/2017 6:05 am : link
In comment 13724903 smshmth8690 said:
Quote:
In comment 13724884 Marty866b said:


Quote:


In the top 10 has set this team back years.



May want to wait a bit before giving uo on Apple. He's still only 22 with a lot of potential. Maybe a new coach will be able to get him to focus on the game.


Apple certainly needs to improve his effort, but he also needs to improve his technique. He is still grabby and fails to track the ball in the air. The same knock on him that he had when he was coming out. There is a $12.4M dead cap if he is released/traded. Will the new GM want to explore a trade? At most, he would return a 2nd round pick.
This theam is rebuilding.  
FStubbs : 12/5/2017 6:18 am : link
Sometimes you have to eat the cap costs for a year when cleaning house.

It's not improbable a new GM decides to do just this and cuts everyone over 30.
With respect to OV and JPP,  
Diver_Down : 12/5/2017 6:26 am : link
we are stuck. We can only hope they return next year unsatisfied with their performance this year and want to prove the critics wrong. These final weeks, I would like to see Wynn and Avery. Wynn has shown more effort than JPP. Wynn is a FA next year and I would like to see if he is worth retaining. His salary is $1.8M. He is certainly providing a better return on the investment than JPP and OV.
RE: This theam is rebuilding.  
Diver_Down : 12/5/2017 6:33 am : link
In comment 13725043 FStubbs said:
Quote:
Sometimes you have to eat the cap costs for a year when cleaning house.

It's not improbable a new GM decides to do just this and cuts everyone over 30.


Not just old and overpaid. There are no more sacred cows. Some players due to the excessive cap hits can't be released/traded. Others that are young and cost controlled might yield a greater return in draft assets than the new GM would be willing to invest in time and future money. (Apple/OBJ)
Sticking with hissy own guys too long  
jlukes : 12/5/2017 6:47 am : link
Was Reese's Achilles heal
RE: More importantly  
markky : 12/5/2017 7:06 am : link
In comment 13724847 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Some of these Reese picks that were handed starting jobs might have to actually earn them.


THIS! I think this will have the biggest impact on our team.
RE: RE: Good points Matt  
Rjanyg : 12/5/2017 7:13 am : link
In comment 13724848 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 13724789 Rjanyg said:


Quote:


There are about 10 guys in this roster that are pretty safe:
1. Engram
2. Shepard
3. Tomlinson
4. Snacks
5. Collins
6. OBJ
7. Gallman
8. Jenkins
9. Flowers
10. DeOssie

I could say Vernon, Eli, JPP, Webb, DRC, Apple could be safe, but between the cost and review of the game tape I could see trades or outright cuts.



You might want to pay attention to the salary cap.


I totally understand the cap and wasn't saying the others would be cut, obviously OV, JPP and Eli are the 3 highest paid players in the team, but depending on the cost and dead money, Eli could be released ( GM may want more cap space/draft picks ) JPP could be traded as well. Vernon is probably safe but between his low production and kneeling he would a target down the road of an early exit from NYG.
Drafting Flowers and Apple  
section125 : 12/5/2017 7:37 am : link
did not set the team back years. Playing Flowers at the wrong position probably hurt them and not having the proper coach to rein in Apple hinders his progression. Flowers is an NFL starter, maybe at RT and maybe at guard. Apple is a starting NFL CB, period. His head maybe up his ass, but he has the talent.

But it is a good thing that an outside set(s) of eyes will come in to evaluate what is here. I doubt that is lost on Mara. This is the second time in 4 years the team thought they had Super Bowl talent and the second time they were grossly incorrect. I don't think this team is nearly as bad talent wise as 2013, but poor coaching made it worse.
RE: RE: RE: Good points Matt  
Diver_Down : 12/5/2017 7:48 am : link
In comment 13725076 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
In comment 13724848 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 13724789 Rjanyg said:


Quote:


There are about 10 guys in this roster that are pretty safe:
1. Engram
2. Shepard
3. Tomlinson
4. Snacks
5. Collins
6. OBJ
7. Gallman
8. Jenkins
9. Flowers
10. DeOssie

I could say Vernon, Eli, JPP, Webb, DRC, Apple could be safe, but between the cost and review of the game tape I could see trades or outright cuts.



You might want to pay attention to the salary cap.



I totally understand the cap and wasn't saying the others would be cut, obviously OV, JPP and Eli are the 3 highest paid players in the team, but depending on the cost and dead money, Eli could be released ( GM may want more cap space/draft picks ) JPP could be traded as well. Vernon is probably safe but between his low production and kneeling he would a target down the road of an early exit from NYG.


I'm sorry but you say you understand the cap, but then you say JPP could be traded. His contract is an albatross, but he can't be traded. To do so, we eat approx. $22M in dead cap.
yes Matt, scholarship time is over.  
Victor in CT : 12/5/2017 8:17 am : link
but as others have pointed out, the cap may force them to kep some of them.

The thing that really scare sme is Ross and team still in charge of the draft.I pray that they get a competent GM ASAP and he shows Ross the door first thing.
New coaches and GM may have completely different Os & Ds  
ZogZerg : 12/5/2017 8:19 am : link
I would think no one on the roster is "safe".
Flowers seems to be turning the corner. Maybe if they kept Flaherty  
Victor in CT : 12/5/2017 8:19 am : link
it would have happened sooner.

Apple is a maturuty issue. They will need a no nonsense DC and 2ndary coach to rein him in.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Good points Matt  
Rjanyg : 12/5/2017 12:51 pm : link
In comment 13725108 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 13725076 Rjanyg said:


Quote:


In comment 13724848 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 13724789 Rjanyg said:


Quote:


There are about 10 guys in this roster that are pretty safe:
1. Engram
2. Shepard
3. Tomlinson
4. Snacks
5. Collins
6. OBJ
7. Gallman
8. Jenkins
9. Flowers
10. DeOssie

I could say Vernon, Eli, JPP, Webb, DRC, Apple could be safe, but between the cost and review of the game tape I could see trades or outright cuts.



You might want to pay attention to the salary cap.



I totally understand the cap and wasn't saying the others would be cut, obviously OV, JPP and Eli are the 3 highest paid players in the team, but depending on the cost and dead money, Eli could be released ( GM may want more cap space/draft picks ) JPP could be traded as well. Vernon is probably safe but between his low production and kneeling he would a target down the road of an early exit from NYG.



I'm sorry but you say you understand the cap, but then you say JPP could be traded. His contract is an albatross, but he can't be traded. To do so, we eat approx. $22M in dead cap.


So you can't trade a player for players/picks and/or cash?
You can indeed trade players for picks/cash/bag of chips.  
Diver_Down : 12/5/2017 4:02 pm : link
But it doesn't change the fact that the team of origination eats the dead cap. A player's future salary and bonuses go with the player, but the signing bonus and other guarantees stays with the original team. For 2018, JPP still has $15M of the signing bonus prorated and $7.75M of his 2018 salary guaranteed. If you trade him, the Giants will not only have to account for the $22M in dead cap, but they will also have the pleasure of paying $7.75M of his salary while another team would only have to pay $3.5M of his salary. I suppose if we are flush in cap space where we could eat the cap hit and are willing to pay 3/4th of a salary without having his services, then yes, he can be traded. It would have to be one awesome deal, though.
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