Because he's the team's best shot at winning -- and that's what it's supposed to be about. If the game gets away from them by more than two scores late, take Eli out and put Webb in. Forget about Geno. Nothing to learn there.
Is every game a one-off or are we allowed to look at "winning" in a more macro sense? Because the best shot at winning, long-term, is to lose every remaining game on their schedule this year. I'd rather sign up for an opportunity at a decade of winning than a month of meaningless games.
And, IMO, that's what it's supposed to be about.
RE: So lets just say the score of the next 4 games going into 4th QTR Â
is Giants losing 17-7 in each one. Offense playing like it usually does and not moving the ball, the defense keeping it reasonable but tiring as always. We happen to put up 7 points because of some short field turnover from the opposing team.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
How much of a difference in Webb's career do you think it'll really make if he gets a few series' in blowouts?
Under the circumstances you outlined, I'd be fine with giving Webb a look. I'm just not sure it ultimately accomplishes much of anything.
It sounds like a lot of you guys just want to see the guy for the sake of seeing him. If he goes out there and plays slightly better or worse than Geno just did, how much stronger are your convictions about him really going to be?
The fact of the matter is that there's nothing Webb can do between now and New Year's Day that is going to cement his status for the next regime one way or another.
Whether he plays well or he doesn't, it's not going to change the Giants' plans - nor should it. That ship has sailed.
If winning is what it's supposed to be about, then Â
personally I would have preferred we just play out the games without subjecting Eli to a possible benching because the game "got out of hand" or even allowing him to finish games because the defense has kept him in it.
Here's what I think/worry will happen.
Eli will start and play all the remaining games. The offense will struggle and Eli will look terrible. A new coach and GM will decide to go in a different direction. Another ugly divorce and more drama as Eli is let go from the Giants.
Eli's last games played here will continue a different streak - the number of games without any significant kind of offensive success.
The last meaningful game we played where Eli looked like the guy who could win a close game late for us was vs. Philly last year when he threw four TD's. I'll be happy if we can see that from him even one more time, win or lose. I just don't really believe we'll have a chance to see this again.
Seem to value a meaningless streak over winning. I want Eli playing over Geno simply because we have a much better chance to win.
All the more reason NOT to play him.
I really don't understand fans who would rather cast aside a chance to set the franchise in a new direction for the next decade plus just for the sake of winning a few meaningless games in a lost season. How myopic can you be?
Honestly, if the people we bring in here judge Eli entirely based on what he does down the stretch of a season like this that spiraled completely out of control and became an absolute circus, I'm going to be pretty worried that we hired the wrong ones.
I don't think any decisions should be made based on the QB play we see behind an injured, shitty offensive line with the DC serving as an interim HC.
Seem to value a meaningless streak over winning. I want Eli playing over Geno simply because we have a much better chance to win.
As long as they win, I think most of us will be okay with it. If we get a repeat of opening night (or worse) I can't see how we gain anything at all by starting Eli. Give me one thing we will have gained so I can understand it.
What do we gain by winning? Seriously - how does it help?
The same people saying how important it is to win these games Â
Seem to value a meaningless streak over winning. I want Eli playing over Geno simply because we have a much better chance to win.
All the more reason NOT to play him.
I really don't understand fans who would rather cast aside a chance to set the franchise in a new direction for the next decade plus just for the sake of winning a few meaningless games in a lost season. How myopic can you be?
We've been a horrible football team all year long. We've won 2 games. Suddenly we're going to start winning? Why?
This team sucks. Eli isn't going to change that. We lost 9 of the 11 games he started and the two teams we beat have been awful ever since.
I'm not worried about suddenly winning games now, nor should anyone else. The Giants are a bad team. We don't need to play Webb to ensure that we lose games and that shouldn't be the primary motivation anyway.
RE: RE: So lets just say the score of the next 4 games going into 4th QTR Â
is Giants losing 17-7 in each one. Offense playing like it usually does and not moving the ball, the defense keeping it reasonable but tiring as always. We happen to put up 7 points because of some short field turnover from the opposing team.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
How much of a difference in Webb's career do you think it'll really make if he gets a few series' in blowouts?
Under the circumstances you outlined, I'd be fine with giving Webb a look. I'm just not sure it ultimately accomplishes much of anything.
It sounds like a lot of you guys just want to see the guy for the sake of seeing him. If he goes out there and plays slightly better or worse than Geno just did, how much stronger are your convictions about him really going to be?
The fact of the matter is that there's nothing Webb can do between now and New Year's Day that is going to cement his status for the next regime one way or another.
Whether he plays well or he doesn't, it's not going to change the Giants' plans - nor should it. That ship has sailed.
And how exactly is that any different than those who want to see Eli play for the sake of seeing him?
The only thing Eli can possibly accomplish at this point is screwing up the draft position.
Seem to value a meaningless streak over winning. I want Eli playing over Geno simply because we have a much better chance to win.
All the more reason NOT to play him.
I really don't understand fans who would rather cast aside a chance to set the franchise in a new direction for the next decade plus just for the sake of winning a few meaningless games in a lost season. How myopic can you be?
We've been a horrible football team all year long. We've won 2 games. Suddenly we're going to start winning? Why?
This team sucks. Eli isn't going to change that. We lost 9 of the 11 games he started and the two teams we beat have been awful ever since.
I'm not worried about suddenly winning games now, nor should anyone else. The Giants are a bad team. We don't need to play Webb to ensure that we lose games and that shouldn't be the primary motivation anyway.
With an interim coach bounce and the return of Eli? Yes, it's very possible they could win 1-2 games that will ultimately screw up the long-term opportunity that is currently in the Giants' lap.
What's the benefit of playing Eli? Don't you think he makes it more likely that the Giants win? If you can honestly say no, then I'll just turn around and ask why you'd play a soon-to-be 37 year old QB in the first place.
personally I would have preferred we just play out the games without subjecting Eli to a possible benching because the game "got out of hand" or even allowing him to finish games because the defense has kept him in it.
Here's what I think/worry will happen.
Eli will start and play all the remaining games. The offense will struggle and Eli will look terrible. A new coach and GM will decide to go in a different direction. Another ugly divorce and more drama as Eli is let go from the Giants.
Eli's last games played here will continue a different streak - the number of games without any significant kind of offensive success.
The last meaningful game we played where Eli looked like the guy who could win a close game late for us was vs. Philly last year when he threw four TD's. I'll be happy if we can see that from him even one more time, win or lose. I just don't really believe we'll have a chance to see this again.
Oh, the humanity! A new coach and GM might decide that it's time to move on from a 37 year old QB who looked terrible and represents a $20MM+ cap hit. Do you really think it's prudent to bet on it being all the other factors having to line up just right, or do you think a new regime just embraces a full rebuild either way?
I think it's almost certainly the latter (which is also why they already put the blood on McAdoo's hands for breaking the streak), which is why it makes the most sense to give them the most valuable draft position to do so.
I guess the coaches that remain pretty clearly disagreed with McAdoo's Â
We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
I still don't understand why people think this team is suddenly going to be good or win games because Eli is back under center.
What changed? This has been a putrid football team in turmoil all year long. Suddenly we're going to start beating everyone?
I don't want to see Eli for the sake of seeing him - I want him to play if Webb isn't ready to play because it makes the most sense.
I'm not one of the fans saying they want to see wins or finish strong. But if Davis Webb isn't ready to play yet, he shouldn't play.
Unless you're really pining for Geno to continue playing... which I really wouldn't understand at all.
I'm pining for the best chance at the best possible draft pick. Do you think Eli gives them a better chance to win than Geno?
If so, he's a risk to interfere with the long-term opportunity. If not, is it just about sentimentality? Because there's definitely a handful of people on this thread alone who don't seem to understand the long-term implications of the next month.
We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
Because he's the team's best shot at winning -- and that's what it's supposed to be about. If the game gets away from them by more than two scores late, take Eli out and put Webb in. Forget about Geno. Nothing to learn there.
Is every game a one-off or are we allowed to look at "winning" in a more macro sense? Because the best shot at winning, long-term, is to lose every remaining game on their schedule this year. I'd rather sign up for an opportunity at a decade of winning than a month of meaningless games.
And, IMO, that's what it's supposed to be about.
and if they like it, maybe they can lose for money going forward.
We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not what I am saying
What I am saying is that the Giants are a very bad football team with a lot of injuries. Whether you start Eli or Geno, the odds of winning are slim.
Look at the offensive production with either guy under center this year. We can't score. It doesn't matter who plays.
I don't understand why you're suddenly worried that we're going to start winning if Eli starts. We haven't all year long. Suddenly that's going to change? Why?
Because he's the team's best shot at winning -- and that's what it's supposed to be about. If the game gets away from them by more than two scores late, take Eli out and put Webb in. Forget about Geno. Nothing to learn there.
Is every game a one-off or are we allowed to look at "winning" in a more macro sense? Because the best shot at winning, long-term, is to lose every remaining game on their schedule this year. I'd rather sign up for an opportunity at a decade of winning than a month of meaningless games.
And, IMO, that's what it's supposed to be about.
and if they like it, maybe they can lose for money going forward.
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.
The Eli era is coming to a close whether we like it or not. He's about to turn 37 and is in some level of physical decline. We have an amazingly fortunate opportunity to transition to a new era with (hopefully) no trough in between franchise QBs, like so many teams suffer through.
If you'd rather win a few meaningless games that end up making us lose many more meaningful games in the future, all I can say is that I passionately disagree with your point of view.
We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not what I am saying
What I am saying is that the Giants are a very bad football team with a lot of injuries. Whether you start Eli or Geno, the odds of winning are slim.
Look at the offensive production with either guy under center this year. We can't score. It doesn't matter who plays.
I don't understand why you're suddenly worried that we're going to start winning if Eli starts. We haven't all year long. Suddenly that's going to change? Why?
I don't think it's a complicated question - is Eli more or less likely to win on Sunday than Geno (or, preferably, Webb)?
Because if the answer is more, it's just an unnecessary risk against the long-term best interests of the franchise, and it's only being done to quell a bloodthirsty mob.
We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not what I am saying
What I am saying is that the Giants are a very bad football team with a lot of injuries. Whether you start Eli or Geno, the odds of winning are slim.
Look at the offensive production with either guy under center this year. We can't score. It doesn't matter who plays.
I don't understand why you're suddenly worried that we're going to start winning if Eli starts. We haven't all year long. Suddenly that's going to change? Why?
I don't think it's a complicated question - is Eli more or less likely to win on Sunday than Geno (or, preferably, Webb)?
Because if the answer is more, it's just an unnecessary risk against the long-term best interests of the franchise, and it's only being done to quell a bloodthirsty mob.
There's no way to quantify that or answer it factually. It would just be an opinion.
The offense looked equally uninspiring with both Geno and Eli because we have arena league WR's and an offensive line that can't block. The circumstances are such that I honestly don't think it makes a measurable difference.
We only needed 12 points to beat Kansas City a few weeks ago. We could win a flukey game with either player. Starting Geno doesn't guarantee anything aside from completely burning our bridges with Eli and eliminating the option to have him return next year.
And yes, I'd like to keep that option open if given the choice because it provides more flexibility going forward.
Spags wants to win and he clearly thinks Eli gives him the best chance to win. Rightfully so.
Ownership was tired of the losing and wants to still try to win every game.
Having said that, I wish McAdoo hadn't been fired because I preferred losing but seeing what we had in the other QB's. I don't worry about the development of Webb. I don't think we're going to ruin a 3rd round pick by giving him some snaps now. Why do we bother giving them snaps in preseason when they have the worst OL's and running games in the league? To develop them and evaluate them.
Like others here, I don't think we're going to produce offensively no matter who is under center. I'd prefer it not be Eli because the games are more interesting with young talent - at least you can see who is on the bench. I also don't savor the notion of Eli playing another quarter season of putrid football. Finally, I don't see what we have to gain by playing Eli at this point.
If you're a fan of Eli and want him around next year why risk injuring him in these meaningless games?
If you're not a fan of Eli (at this point) and are ready to move on, why have Eli start these meaningless games?
I can only see one condition - that you want to win these games (like Spags does) and you believe that Eli can help you get that done. This is the only real reason I believe you should really start Eli throughout.
And I don't get the uproar over the original plan of starting Eli but bringing in the backups later in the game vs. starting Eli and pulling him because the game is out of hand (signaling a lack of confidence in Eli's ability to pull out a win). The second would certainly be more painful and disrespectful to Eli, imo. Eli - we planned to have you in the game but since we're doing nothing with you on offense we're going to take you out and see what we got with someone else. YIKES!
We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not what I am saying
What I am saying is that the Giants are a very bad football team with a lot of injuries. Whether you start Eli or Geno, the odds of winning are slim.
Look at the offensive production with either guy under center this year. We can't score. It doesn't matter who plays.
I don't understand why you're suddenly worried that we're going to start winning if Eli starts. We haven't all year long. Suddenly that's going to change? Why?
I don't think it's a complicated question - is Eli more or less likely to win on Sunday than Geno (or, preferably, Webb)?
Because if the answer is more, it's just an unnecessary risk against the long-term best interests of the franchise, and it's only being done to quell a bloodthirsty mob.
There's no way to quantify that or answer it factually. It would just be an opinion.
The offense looked equally uninspiring with both Geno and Eli because we have arena league WR's and an offensive line that can't block. The circumstances are such that I honestly don't think it makes a measurable difference.
We only needed 12 points to beat Kansas City a few weeks ago. We could win a flukey game with either player. Starting Geno doesn't guarantee anything aside from completely burning our bridges with Eli and eliminating the option to have him return next year.
And yes, I'd like to keep that option open if given the choice because it provides more flexibility going forward.
Fair enough, and I can appreciate that alone as a reason.
My opinion is that they're very likely to part ways with Eli either way, especially after this past week, but not necessarily because Eli won't want to come back (although who knows if he will), but because I think a new regime is likely to have extreme reservations about repeating the circus that this past week became.
And that would be the ultimate O. Henry level irony - all of the fan outrage that went down this past week could ultimately affect the next regime's willingness to keep Eli and risk going through it again.
Spags coaching to win the last four games, to try and win himself the head job. Playing an aging known quantity in a lost season while a young, promising player continues to watch. I can see it now, Abrams/Spags GM/HC combo.
Just what the doctor ordered.
Go look at history of teams that struggled with good established veteran qbs. They never sat the qb. Never. That's one of the reasons why mcadoo was fired. Or I should say the decision to bench Eli for smith was indicative of a lost head coach.
They never sit the vet qb unless the young qb is highly regarded. I
My opinion is that they're very likely to part ways with Eli either way, especially after this past week, but not necessarily because Eli won't want to come back (although who knows if he will), but because I think a new regime is likely to have extreme reservations about repeating the circus that this past week became.
And that would be the ultimate O. Henry level irony - all of the fan outrage that went down this past week could ultimately affect the next regime's willingness to keep Eli and risk going through it again.
I couldn't agree more - although I'm with Arc personally in that I'm okay with keeping Eli around, I don't really see a reason that the new regime will want to do the same. They've got to make the right decisions with regards to QB and would rather go through some growing pains with the new talent at QB than deal with benching Eli at some point in the near future.
And of course, there is the possibility that they want to simply change offensive philosophies and go with a more mobile QB. They may feel that Eli doesn't fit with that philosophy.
You could be right - obviously that will all depend on who we bring in, but sure, it's absolutely possible they feel that way.
To be clear, there are fans who actually want to see the Giants win these games - I'm not one of those. I want the better pick. I just really think we'll keep losing even if we start Eli, and I figure if there's a chance to salvage the relationship, it's worth doing in the event that the following regime feels Eli is still someone they want to be a part of their plans going forward.
Ideally, I'd like for Eli to prove he's still got a little something left while we simultaneously lose out. It'll be hard for both things to happen together, but that's my hope.
I'm just tired of the circus atmosphere at this point.
Spags coaching to win the last four games, to try and win himself the head job. Playing an aging known quantity in a lost season while a young, promising player continues to watch. I can see it now, Abrams/Spags GM/HC combo.
Just what the doctor ordered.
Go look at history of teams that struggled with good established veteran qbs. They never sat the qb. Never. That's one of the reasons why mcadoo was fired. Or I should say the decision to bench Eli for smith was indicative of a lost head coach.
They never sit the vet qb unless the young qb is highly regarded. I
At least the Broncos had the good sense to pretend that Peyton was injured in 2015 when they benched him.
Geno had his start.
Davis is the one who (appropriately) will have fewer starts.
The NYGs should jettison Geno (so he can compete as BU on another team) and start a REAL evaluation of Davis (vs a high draft choice if they go that way) next spring. Even if not #1, Webb should be a solid #2 with proper coaching, or even have trade value.
but we can enjoy Eli's goodbye tour . At worst it delays the rebuild a year or so
You're right. Delaying the rebuild a year or so is the worst. We should avoid that. Stop patching holes on a broken product and start the rebuild ASAP.
I don't think anyone should be worrying about this team going on a mini 4 game tear to finish off this nonsense season. No way they're beating Dallas or Philly.
Dallas game- the Giants will likely keep it close but will lose the game in the fourth quarter or win in OT.
Philly game- I actually think the Rams will manhandle Philly out there with that LA front four. Philly is going to come back to NJ, pissed off and Wentz will go back to looking like an all star again throwing 4 touchdowns, Eagles will be the darlings of the NFL after winning 44-3 and everyone will slurp them up again because they beat another moron team.
Arizona game- Go back to where Super Bowl 42 was in a white jersey #10 one last time. Giants win 13-10.
Washington game - lose something like 21-10. Eli's last game as a Giants player/starter or whatever. Have Coughlin and others greet him to send him off.
is Giants losing 17-7 in each one. Offense playing like it usually does and not moving the ball, the defense keeping it reasonable but tiring as always. We happen to put up 7 points because of some short field turnover from the opposing team.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
How much of a difference in Webb's career do you think it'll really make if he gets a few series' in blowouts?
Under the circumstances you outlined, I'd be fine with giving Webb a look. I'm just not sure it ultimately accomplishes much of anything.
It sounds like a lot of you guys just want to see the guy for the sake of seeing him. If he goes out there and plays slightly better or worse than Geno just did, how much stronger are your convictions about him really going to be?
The fact of the matter is that there's nothing Webb can do between now and New Year's Day that is going to cement his status for the next regime one way or another.
Whether he plays well or he doesn't, it's not going to change the Giants' plans - nor should it. That ship has sailed.
You miss the point. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by playing Eli. Nothing.
therefore you play Webb...
RE: Imagine next year will be the same as this year Â
It will again on Sunday when the fans get aging and immobile Eli back with an incompetent OL, the same lack of offensive firepower, the same coach calling the plays, and an opponent that is a desperate team trying to make the playoffs, with an improving and aggressive defense. I really hope I am wrong but in my mind the Giants continue their losing streak--on and off the field --with another bad decision. They blew it on how they benched Eli, and now they are reinserting him as a weak, face-saving measure when they really need to know what they have behind him on the bench before the off-season.
Regardless of who plays QB, they chances of them improving Â
their record enough to fall out of the blue-chip QB range are virtually non-existent.
So, come up with a scenario where they do *not* take the blue-chip QB. I will tell you that it's fanciful. A responsible franchise would do nothing else but take a potential franchise QB.
I'm not wed to playing Eli but there is really no rational reason not to, other than the philosophy where everyone gets to play and we all have oranges at half-time. There nothing to learn because, given their record, nothing will change their draft strategy. And they know it.
I know! brilliant!!! dilly-dilly!!
Is every game a one-off or are we allowed to look at "winning" in a more macro sense? Because the best shot at winning, long-term, is to lose every remaining game on their schedule this year. I'd rather sign up for an opportunity at a decade of winning than a month of meaningless games.
And, IMO, that's what it's supposed to be about.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
How much of a difference in Webb's career do you think it'll really make if he gets a few series' in blowouts?
Under the circumstances you outlined, I'd be fine with giving Webb a look. I'm just not sure it ultimately accomplishes much of anything.
It sounds like a lot of you guys just want to see the guy for the sake of seeing him. If he goes out there and plays slightly better or worse than Geno just did, how much stronger are your convictions about him really going to be?
The fact of the matter is that there's nothing Webb can do between now and New Year's Day that is going to cement his status for the next regime one way or another.
Whether he plays well or he doesn't, it's not going to change the Giants' plans - nor should it. That ship has sailed.
Here's what I think/worry will happen.
Eli will start and play all the remaining games. The offense will struggle and Eli will look terrible. A new coach and GM will decide to go in a different direction. Another ugly divorce and more drama as Eli is let go from the Giants.
Eli's last games played here will continue a different streak - the number of games without any significant kind of offensive success.
The last meaningful game we played where Eli looked like the guy who could win a close game late for us was vs. Philly last year when he threw four TD's. I'll be happy if we can see that from him even one more time, win or lose. I just don't really believe we'll have a chance to see this again.
All the more reason NOT to play him.
I really don't understand fans who would rather cast aside a chance to set the franchise in a new direction for the next decade plus just for the sake of winning a few meaningless games in a lost season. How myopic can you be?
I don't think any decisions should be made based on the QB play we see behind an injured, shitty offensive line with the DC serving as an interim HC.
Quote:
Seem to value a meaningless streak over winning. I want Eli playing over Geno simply because we have a much better chance to win.
As long as they win, I think most of us will be okay with it. If we get a repeat of opening night (or worse) I can't see how we gain anything at all by starting Eli. Give me one thing we will have gained so I can understand it.
What do we gain by winning? Seriously - how does it help?
Quote:
Seem to value a meaningless streak over winning. I want Eli playing over Geno simply because we have a much better chance to win.
All the more reason NOT to play him.
I really don't understand fans who would rather cast aside a chance to set the franchise in a new direction for the next decade plus just for the sake of winning a few meaningless games in a lost season. How myopic can you be?
We've been a horrible football team all year long. We've won 2 games. Suddenly we're going to start winning? Why?
This team sucks. Eli isn't going to change that. We lost 9 of the 11 games he started and the two teams we beat have been awful ever since.
I'm not worried about suddenly winning games now, nor should anyone else. The Giants are a bad team. We don't need to play Webb to ensure that we lose games and that shouldn't be the primary motivation anyway.
Quote:
is Giants losing 17-7 in each one. Offense playing like it usually does and not moving the ball, the defense keeping it reasonable but tiring as always. We happen to put up 7 points because of some short field turnover from the opposing team.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
How much of a difference in Webb's career do you think it'll really make if he gets a few series' in blowouts?
Under the circumstances you outlined, I'd be fine with giving Webb a look. I'm just not sure it ultimately accomplishes much of anything.
It sounds like a lot of you guys just want to see the guy for the sake of seeing him. If he goes out there and plays slightly better or worse than Geno just did, how much stronger are your convictions about him really going to be?
The fact of the matter is that there's nothing Webb can do between now and New Year's Day that is going to cement his status for the next regime one way or another.
Whether he plays well or he doesn't, it's not going to change the Giants' plans - nor should it. That ship has sailed.
And how exactly is that any different than those who want to see Eli play for the sake of seeing him?
The only thing Eli can possibly accomplish at this point is screwing up the draft position.
Quote:
In comment 13726547 EricJ said:
Quote:
Seem to value a meaningless streak over winning. I want Eli playing over Geno simply because we have a much better chance to win.
All the more reason NOT to play him.
I really don't understand fans who would rather cast aside a chance to set the franchise in a new direction for the next decade plus just for the sake of winning a few meaningless games in a lost season. How myopic can you be?
We've been a horrible football team all year long. We've won 2 games. Suddenly we're going to start winning? Why?
This team sucks. Eli isn't going to change that. We lost 9 of the 11 games he started and the two teams we beat have been awful ever since.
I'm not worried about suddenly winning games now, nor should anyone else. The Giants are a bad team. We don't need to play Webb to ensure that we lose games and that shouldn't be the primary motivation anyway.
With an interim coach bounce and the return of Eli? Yes, it's very possible they could win 1-2 games that will ultimately screw up the long-term opportunity that is currently in the Giants' lap.
What's the benefit of playing Eli? Don't you think he makes it more likely that the Giants win? If you can honestly say no, then I'll just turn around and ask why you'd play a soon-to-be 37 year old QB in the first place.
What changed? This has been a putrid football team in turmoil all year long. Suddenly we're going to start beating everyone?
I don't want to see Eli for the sake of seeing him - I want him to play if Webb isn't ready to play because it makes the most sense.
I'm not one of the fans saying they want to see wins or finish strong. But if Davis Webb isn't ready to play yet, he shouldn't play.
Unless you're really pining for Geno to continue playing... which I really wouldn't understand at all.
Here's what I think/worry will happen.
Eli will start and play all the remaining games. The offense will struggle and Eli will look terrible. A new coach and GM will decide to go in a different direction. Another ugly divorce and more drama as Eli is let go from the Giants.
Eli's last games played here will continue a different streak - the number of games without any significant kind of offensive success.
The last meaningful game we played where Eli looked like the guy who could win a close game late for us was vs. Philly last year when he threw four TD's. I'll be happy if we can see that from him even one more time, win or lose. I just don't really believe we'll have a chance to see this again.
Oh, the humanity! A new coach and GM might decide that it's time to move on from a 37 year old QB who looked terrible and represents a $20MM+ cap hit. Do you really think it's prudent to bet on it being all the other factors having to line up just right, or do you think a new regime just embraces a full rebuild either way?
I think it's almost certainly the latter (which is also why they already put the blood on McAdoo's hands for breaking the streak), which is why it makes the most sense to give them the most valuable draft position to do so.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
What changed? This has been a putrid football team in turmoil all year long. Suddenly we're going to start beating everyone?
I don't want to see Eli for the sake of seeing him - I want him to play if Webb isn't ready to play because it makes the most sense.
I'm not one of the fans saying they want to see wins or finish strong. But if Davis Webb isn't ready to play yet, he shouldn't play.
Unless you're really pining for Geno to continue playing... which I really wouldn't understand at all.
I'm pining for the best chance at the best possible draft pick. Do you think Eli gives them a better chance to win than Geno?
If so, he's a risk to interfere with the long-term opportunity. If not, is it just about sentimentality? Because there's definitely a handful of people on this thread alone who don't seem to understand the long-term implications of the next month.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
Quote:
Because he's the team's best shot at winning -- and that's what it's supposed to be about. If the game gets away from them by more than two scores late, take Eli out and put Webb in. Forget about Geno. Nothing to learn there.
Is every game a one-off or are we allowed to look at "winning" in a more macro sense? Because the best shot at winning, long-term, is to lose every remaining game on their schedule this year. I'd rather sign up for an opportunity at a decade of winning than a month of meaningless games.
And, IMO, that's what it's supposed to be about.
We're not guaranteed any outcome regardless of who starts.
We were down a field goal with under 5 minutes to play in Oakland. One late Derek Carr mistake could have had us leaving that stadium with a win.
Quote:
We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not what I am saying
What I am saying is that the Giants are a very bad football team with a lot of injuries. Whether you start Eli or Geno, the odds of winning are slim.
Look at the offensive production with either guy under center this year. We can't score. It doesn't matter who plays.
I don't understand why you're suddenly worried that we're going to start winning if Eli starts. We haven't all year long. Suddenly that's going to change? Why?
Quote:
In comment 13726569 Percy said:
Quote:
Because he's the team's best shot at winning -- and that's what it's supposed to be about. If the game gets away from them by more than two scores late, take Eli out and put Webb in. Forget about Geno. Nothing to learn there.
Is every game a one-off or are we allowed to look at "winning" in a more macro sense? Because the best shot at winning, long-term, is to lose every remaining game on their schedule this year. I'd rather sign up for an opportunity at a decade of winning than a month of meaningless games.
And, IMO, that's what it's supposed to be about.
and if they like it, maybe they can lose for money going forward.
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.
The Eli era is coming to a close whether we like it or not. He's about to turn 37 and is in some level of physical decline. We have an amazingly fortunate opportunity to transition to a new era with (hopefully) no trough in between franchise QBs, like so many teams suffer through.
If you'd rather win a few meaningless games that end up making us lose many more meaningful games in the future, all I can say is that I passionately disagree with your point of view.
Quote:
In comment 13726616 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not what I am saying
What I am saying is that the Giants are a very bad football team with a lot of injuries. Whether you start Eli or Geno, the odds of winning are slim.
Look at the offensive production with either guy under center this year. We can't score. It doesn't matter who plays.
I don't understand why you're suddenly worried that we're going to start winning if Eli starts. We haven't all year long. Suddenly that's going to change? Why?
I don't think it's a complicated question - is Eli more or less likely to win on Sunday than Geno (or, preferably, Webb)?
Because if the answer is more, it's just an unnecessary risk against the long-term best interests of the franchise, and it's only being done to quell a bloodthirsty mob.
A lot of people "disagree" with something that put the guy ahead of them in front of a firing squad.
Quote:
In comment 13726620 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13726616 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not what I am saying
What I am saying is that the Giants are a very bad football team with a lot of injuries. Whether you start Eli or Geno, the odds of winning are slim.
Look at the offensive production with either guy under center this year. We can't score. It doesn't matter who plays.
I don't understand why you're suddenly worried that we're going to start winning if Eli starts. We haven't all year long. Suddenly that's going to change? Why?
I don't think it's a complicated question - is Eli more or less likely to win on Sunday than Geno (or, preferably, Webb)?
Because if the answer is more, it's just an unnecessary risk against the long-term best interests of the franchise, and it's only being done to quell a bloodthirsty mob.
There's no way to quantify that or answer it factually. It would just be an opinion.
The offense looked equally uninspiring with both Geno and Eli because we have arena league WR's and an offensive line that can't block. The circumstances are such that I honestly don't think it makes a measurable difference.
We only needed 12 points to beat Kansas City a few weeks ago. We could win a flukey game with either player. Starting Geno doesn't guarantee anything aside from completely burning our bridges with Eli and eliminating the option to have him return next year.
And yes, I'd like to keep that option open if given the choice because it provides more flexibility going forward.
Ownership was tired of the losing and wants to still try to win every game.
Having said that, I wish McAdoo hadn't been fired because I preferred losing but seeing what we had in the other QB's. I don't worry about the development of Webb. I don't think we're going to ruin a 3rd round pick by giving him some snaps now. Why do we bother giving them snaps in preseason when they have the worst OL's and running games in the league? To develop them and evaluate them.
Like others here, I don't think we're going to produce offensively no matter who is under center. I'd prefer it not be Eli because the games are more interesting with young talent - at least you can see who is on the bench. I also don't savor the notion of Eli playing another quarter season of putrid football. Finally, I don't see what we have to gain by playing Eli at this point.
If you're a fan of Eli and want him around next year why risk injuring him in these meaningless games?
If you're not a fan of Eli (at this point) and are ready to move on, why have Eli start these meaningless games?
I can only see one condition - that you want to win these games (like Spags does) and you believe that Eli can help you get that done. This is the only real reason I believe you should really start Eli throughout.
And I don't get the uproar over the original plan of starting Eli but bringing in the backups later in the game vs. starting Eli and pulling him because the game is out of hand (signaling a lack of confidence in Eli's ability to pull out a win). The second would certainly be more painful and disrespectful to Eli, imo. Eli - we planned to have you in the game but since we're doing nothing with you on offense we're going to take you out and see what we got with someone else. YIKES!
Quote:
In comment 13726627 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13726620 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13726616 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
We lost to the Raiders by one score. 7 points was our smallest margin of defeat since Week 5 when we had our WR's healthy for at least a portion of the game.
Starting Geno doesn't guarantee losing any more than Eli does. This team has problems all over the place. They're terrible.
So you think Eli gives them a better chance to lose and Geno is the better QB? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not what I am saying
What I am saying is that the Giants are a very bad football team with a lot of injuries. Whether you start Eli or Geno, the odds of winning are slim.
Look at the offensive production with either guy under center this year. We can't score. It doesn't matter who plays.
I don't understand why you're suddenly worried that we're going to start winning if Eli starts. We haven't all year long. Suddenly that's going to change? Why?
I don't think it's a complicated question - is Eli more or less likely to win on Sunday than Geno (or, preferably, Webb)?
Because if the answer is more, it's just an unnecessary risk against the long-term best interests of the franchise, and it's only being done to quell a bloodthirsty mob.
There's no way to quantify that or answer it factually. It would just be an opinion.
The offense looked equally uninspiring with both Geno and Eli because we have arena league WR's and an offensive line that can't block. The circumstances are such that I honestly don't think it makes a measurable difference.
We only needed 12 points to beat Kansas City a few weeks ago. We could win a flukey game with either player. Starting Geno doesn't guarantee anything aside from completely burning our bridges with Eli and eliminating the option to have him return next year.
And yes, I'd like to keep that option open if given the choice because it provides more flexibility going forward.
Fair enough, and I can appreciate that alone as a reason.
My opinion is that they're very likely to part ways with Eli either way, especially after this past week, but not necessarily because Eli won't want to come back (although who knows if he will), but because I think a new regime is likely to have extreme reservations about repeating the circus that this past week became.
And that would be the ultimate O. Henry level irony - all of the fan outrage that went down this past week could ultimately affect the next regime's willingness to keep Eli and risk going through it again.
Just what the doctor ordered.
Go look at history of teams that struggled with good established veteran qbs. They never sat the qb. Never. That's one of the reasons why mcadoo was fired. Or I should say the decision to bench Eli for smith was indicative of a lost head coach.
They never sit the vet qb unless the young qb is highly regarded. I
My opinion is that they're very likely to part ways with Eli either way, especially after this past week, but not necessarily because Eli won't want to come back (although who knows if he will), but because I think a new regime is likely to have extreme reservations about repeating the circus that this past week became.
And that would be the ultimate O. Henry level irony - all of the fan outrage that went down this past week could ultimately affect the next regime's willingness to keep Eli and risk going through it again.
I couldn't agree more - although I'm with Arc personally in that I'm okay with keeping Eli around, I don't really see a reason that the new regime will want to do the same. They've got to make the right decisions with regards to QB and would rather go through some growing pains with the new talent at QB than deal with benching Eli at some point in the near future.
And of course, there is the possibility that they want to simply change offensive philosophies and go with a more mobile QB. They may feel that Eli doesn't fit with that philosophy.
To be clear, there are fans who actually want to see the Giants win these games - I'm not one of those. I want the better pick. I just really think we'll keep losing even if we start Eli, and I figure if there's a chance to salvage the relationship, it's worth doing in the event that the following regime feels Eli is still someone they want to be a part of their plans going forward.
Ideally, I'd like for Eli to prove he's still got a little something left while we simultaneously lose out. It'll be hard for both things to happen together, but that's my hope.
I'm just tired of the circus atmosphere at this point.
There is a thread right now on this website about another players dad sending Eli's dad a condolence note over not starting.
The whole football world cares and that's why Manning is starting.
Quote:
Spags coaching to win the last four games, to try and win himself the head job. Playing an aging known quantity in a lost season while a young, promising player continues to watch. I can see it now, Abrams/Spags GM/HC combo.
Just what the doctor ordered.
Go look at history of teams that struggled with good established veteran qbs. They never sat the qb. Never. That's one of the reasons why mcadoo was fired. Or I should say the decision to bench Eli for smith was indicative of a lost head coach.
They never sit the vet qb unless the young qb is highly regarded. I
At least the Broncos had the good sense to pretend that Peyton was injured in 2015 when they benched him.
Geno had his start.
Davis is the one who (appropriately) will have fewer starts.
The NYGs should jettison Geno (so he can compete as BU on another team) and start a REAL evaluation of Davis (vs a high draft choice if they go that way) next spring. Even if not #1, Webb should be a solid #2 with proper coaching, or even have trade value.
You're right. Delaying the rebuild a year or so is the worst. We should avoid that. Stop patching holes on a broken product and start the rebuild ASAP.
AFC-W sucks...as does NFC-W. We just sucked less than those 2.
Dallas game- the Giants will likely keep it close but will lose the game in the fourth quarter or win in OT.
Philly game- I actually think the Rams will manhandle Philly out there with that LA front four. Philly is going to come back to NJ, pissed off and Wentz will go back to looking like an all star again throwing 4 touchdowns, Eagles will be the darlings of the NFL after winning 44-3 and everyone will slurp them up again because they beat another moron team.
Arizona game- Go back to where Super Bowl 42 was in a white jersey #10 one last time. Giants win 13-10.
Washington game - lose something like 21-10. Eli's last game as a Giants player/starter or whatever. Have Coughlin and others greet him to send him off.
Giants finish 3-13 to wrap up this bizarre season
Quote:
is Giants losing 17-7 in each one. Offense playing like it usually does and not moving the ball, the defense keeping it reasonable but tiring as always. We happen to put up 7 points because of some short field turnover from the opposing team.
Are we allowed to bench Eli and give snaps to Webb in any of these types of games?
If it were up to you "bleeding hearts" the answer would be no.
So Webb will continue to sit...
How much of a difference in Webb's career do you think it'll really make if he gets a few series' in blowouts?
Under the circumstances you outlined, I'd be fine with giving Webb a look. I'm just not sure it ultimately accomplishes much of anything.
It sounds like a lot of you guys just want to see the guy for the sake of seeing him. If he goes out there and plays slightly better or worse than Geno just did, how much stronger are your convictions about him really going to be?
The fact of the matter is that there's nothing Webb can do between now and New Year's Day that is going to cement his status for the next regime one way or another.
Whether he plays well or he doesn't, it's not going to change the Giants' plans - nor should it. That ship has sailed.
You miss the point. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by playing Eli. Nothing.
therefore you play Webb...
That is a dreadful way to run a franchise.
The successful restructuring of this team began this week with the firing of two problems. Eli around only further delays the progress...
It looks like we do that already...
So, come up with a scenario where they do *not* take the blue-chip QB. I will tell you that it's fanciful. A responsible franchise would do nothing else but take a potential franchise QB.
I'm not wed to playing Eli but there is really no rational reason not to, other than the philosophy where everyone gets to play and we all have oranges at half-time. There nothing to learn because, given their record, nothing will change their draft strategy. And they know it.
Someone let me know! Thanks!