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One more run, half measure or rebuild? Poll and discussion

NoGainDayne : 12/5/2017 3:21 pm
As the dust settled from the firings last night I found myself wandering back from the lands of tear this whole thing down I canít stand another minute to asking what if we had a GM that could make our oline mediocre? Or a coach that could make up for this weakness and scheme around what seem to be one of the best sets of WR/TEs in the league? What if we could bring in 2 or 3 even decent man to man TE and RB cover guys? So I ask you BBI which scenario speaks to you the most? Iím going to list some pros and cons Iíve thought of, feel free to add, comment or just vote and Iíll tally up the results in a few days.

1. Stay put take the best QB on the board Ė the rest of the team formation could be variable but many advocate this regardless not just for the Giants but as a general team philosophy. If you pick high and there is even a remotely viable QB you take them unless there is a truly elite LT or DE mostly.

Pros: Usher in a new Giants dynasty on the heels of a franchise QB, mitigate the risk of a Browns Carson Wentz situation watching a guy you could have got set up a dynasty.

Cons: Potentially watch Eli play and win for another franchise. Miss out on a better QB prospect in the next year or two. See our defense and offensive supporting cast play well but watch our top QB languish and wonder if we forced the QB pick or even go through a few QBs that have no shot at a super bowl and lament the fact that we didnít give our 2 time super bowl QB one more shot with a decent coach and/or offensive line when anyone who ever watched Eli play knows he needs the latter.

2. All out win Ė Eli has one more in him! - In this scenario we lean on free agency and risk cap issues in two years, overpay if you must and fix OL, LB and maximize the overall talent of the team even if it means players are old and you bottom out for a year to eat dead money. I think picking 2 and having confidence we can get Saqun Barkely makes this option the most attractive. But adding someone like Fitzpatrick or James to our defense with free agents could mean a defense that can carry us to a championship. Part of this plan also involves not taking a QB this year in the draft to maximize the talent around Eli. (Or hey, maybe you are more excited about Webb than I am)

Pros: Bet that the defense is still elite based on games like Washington and put one more Lombardi in the trophy case. See Odell play one more year with a proven QB and more viable protection before we pay him the big bucks. From my perspective today, he looks more like Terrell Owens (a distraction) than Tom Brady (a passionate leader) but more data on this would be helpful as well as seeing him return to form from injury.

Cons: Our defense never looks as good as it did last year or Eli increasingly shows his age and we wallow in mediocrity for a few years, get ourselves in cap trouble and must do a rebuild when guys like Beckham or Collins are entering their prime. We canít fix the Oline quick enough to make Eli useful.

3. Half Measure Ė Central to this plan is trading down in the draft. I know there are always people that say there isnít a trade down blah blah but this is a thought exercise. Keep Eli as the starter and presuming Webb doesnít show amazing things this season use extra picks to maybe grab Jackson or Mayfield or Rudolph in round 2. Look only for bargains in free agency, trade down perhaps multiple times and just add as many talented young bodies as possible.

Pros: This is the highest probability of not seeing 2-10 again while still seeing the potential of going on another run with Eli. Gives you more wiggle room as to when you transition away from Eli at QB.

Cons: If you maximize your floor you might never get the chance to draft a QB like Darnold or Rosen without trading a great many picks. A non QB taken in the top 3 looks like a perennial all pro, you lose in the playoffs and you are left saying maybe we could have won another one if we drafted them.

For me this is a very tough choice and most of all I just hope we bring in a great front office talent to do so but for the poll Iím going with option 2. Mostly just because we have bottomed out so hard this season and the idea of giving Eli a shot with Saquon, Beckham, Engram and Shepard is tantalizing to me. Combine this with the fact that top 2 QBs share at least one of Eliís warts, the turnover prone Darnold and the relatively immobile Rosen who is safe but hard to see as a top 5 QB in this league. Plus, they might not even come out in the draft and I don't like the idea of reaching for a QB or taking a talented non QB without shoring up other areas via free agency. If I had to rank my choice for QB irrespective of where they go I think Darnold is the best risk / reward pair, but I would much rather Mayfield / Jackson / Allen lower extra picks than Darnold and certainly Rosen. One more thing for option 2 is that I really wouldn't mind feeling like we did everything to give Eli one more shot and looking for a QB at the top of the draft again in 2-3 years but others might think Eli is more done than I do.

Really curious to see where the majority lies on this strategic crossroads. For the skimmers out there vote 1 if you unequivocally want to keep our top pick and take a QB 2 if you want to maximize the talent around Eli spending at all costs in FA and not taking a QB with a high pick vote 3 you'd like to stay out of big free agent spending, build through the draft and intentionally miss out on Darnold or Rosen or propose a new plan number it and if others vote for i'm happy to tally anything that I see more than a few votes for.
Good post  
NorwoodWideRight : 12/5/2017 3:28 pm : link
I think you clearly laid out the options.

What I'd pick depends on Webb and whether they feel he'll be an adequate replacement for Eli down the road. If there's any chance he can be the franchise QB going forward, I'd prefer #2. Otherwise, I'd rather just do a rebuild and go with option #1.
When a team picks this high (which is RARE for the NYG)  
JohnB : 12/5/2017 3:31 pm : link
and they will be needing a QB in the next year or two, you ALWAYS take the QB, esp when it's a QB rich draft. Good QBs are very hard to find and expensive to get them. So when you have the chance, you take the QB.
.  
arcarsenal : 12/5/2017 3:32 pm : link
Has to be #1 at this point. #2 would be a really big mistake, IMO.

I'd actually be completely fine with Eli returning next year and beginning the year as the starter.

After all that has gone on, who knows if that is even feasible.

But I think you've got to draft the QB now. It's a good class and we'll have a top 3 pick (barring some weird, unforeseen BS)

Don't wait until it's far too late. Be proactive and get the QB now while the opportunity is there.

Doesn't mean we have to waive the white flag on 2018, either.
RE: .  
BillKo : 12/5/2017 3:34 pm : link
In comment 13726194 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Has to be #1 at this point. #2 would be a really big mistake, IMO.

I'd actually be completely fine with Eli returning next year and beginning the year as the starter.

After all that has gone on, who knows if that is even feasible.

But I think you've got to draft the QB now. It's a good class and we'll have a top 3 pick (barring some weird, unforeseen BS)

Don't wait until it's far too late. Be proactive and get the QB now while the opportunity is there.

Doesn't mean we have to waive the white flag on 2018, either.


Yep.

Because in the NFL, you can compete the very next year.
All in on Darnold..  
Sean : 12/5/2017 3:40 pm : link
This is a rare opportunity to draft a big time QB.
I think the boss himself  
section125 : 12/5/2017 3:52 pm : link
said this is a complete gut job....
#2 is bad  
BocaGiants91 : 12/5/2017 3:55 pm : link
Thats how the Browns passed on Wentz and Watson, at this point take the qb, need a full rebuild, not winning with most of this roster, its going to be new GM looking long term cause hell have a few years at least
Full rebuild.  
Red Dog : 12/5/2017 4:03 pm : link
Hopefully Eli is around for another year or maybe two to train the new QB.
Total tear down  
deeptoleft : 12/5/2017 4:12 pm : link
While I love the idea of #2, the stark reality is that there are so many holes on this roster. The next GM / coach will have a lot of work to do to upgrade the talent and depth at many positions. It is what it is...
Neither ...  
Beer Man : 12/5/2017 4:13 pm : link
Obviously, there is a total rebuild of the front office and coaching. But from a player perspective there is still a lot of very good talent on this team. Some units need a total rebuild (OL & LB), while other units will need some house keeping. The QB position will be the biggest one to watch. This is the salary cap era where teams fortunes can turn on a dime. Will the team make another SB run with Eli or opt. to develop the next franchise QB? This should be a very interesting off-season.
This  
Dragon : 12/5/2017 5:40 pm : link
Is a ten year or more fuck for the Giants. Will OBJ want to remain after next year, will Collins want to remain after next year? Is there really anyone else on this team that brings anything to build around on offense and defense? Loose those two and forget about a young QB or anything or anyone else to bring players to an organization that lies to everybody including themselves.
Rebuild  
Giantslifer : 12/5/2017 6:24 pm : link
Depending on GM/Coach combo Giants need to decide who they are going to be.
Ground & Pound or open it up.
if I were in charge I would rebuild from inside out, I don't see any of these QB's as long term. The only one I would even look at is Jackson (can he put on 20 lbs?)
Cleveland is forced to take QB at #1. So who is left?.

I draft all the OL/DL/LB's I can get my hands on. All existing players are available at right price.
Even in SB years , Giants were middle of pack until they got hot. Time to stop reaching for middle.
Build the trenches first  
Sarcastic Sam : 12/5/2017 6:41 pm : link
A top QB is useless without an OL and DL.
This team is not close  
EricJ : 12/5/2017 6:49 pm : link
There is no run in our future with this core group. Buying q couple of bandaid free agents will just prolong the inevitable
RE: #2 is bad  
NoGainDayne : 12/5/2017 6:50 pm : link
In comment 13726242 BocaGiants91 said:
Quote:
Thats how the Browns passed on Wentz and Watson, at this point take the qb, need a full rebuild, not winning with most of this roster, its going to be new GM looking long term cause hell have a few years at least


Actually #2 isn't how the Browns passed on Wentz it was #3. And Watson wasn't viewed like a Darnold or Rosen (prototypical QB) which is why he fell so again that looks more like #3 because the better comp to Watson is Mayfield. Successful and mobile college QB that doesn't fit the typical QB mold
In order to go on on more run, you have to be close to being ready  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/5/2017 6:51 pm : link
for it.
RE: This team is not close  
BigBlueShock : 12/5/2017 6:55 pm : link
In comment 13726550 EricJ said:
Quote:
There is no run in our future with this core group. Buying q couple of bandaid free agents will just prolong the inevitable

This team went 11-5 last year with the worst designed offensive gameplan in the history of football. They have a lot of talent. Build up the OL and bring in an OC with a brain and youíd be surprised.
If they like one of the QBs  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 12/5/2017 6:55 pm : link
they will take him. No doubt in my mind.

The only scenario that might throw a wrench into that is if they don't believe a QB worth the pick is on the board. Msybe if Rosen is gone and they aren't high on Darnold they could go in another direction.
RE: RE: This team is not close  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/5/2017 6:58 pm : link
In comment 13726562 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 13726550 EricJ said:


Quote:


There is no run in our future with this core group. Buying q couple of bandaid free agents will just prolong the inevitable


This team went 11-5 last year with the worst designed offensive gameplan in the history of football. They have a lot of talent. Build up the OL and bring in an OC with a brain and youíd be surprised.


Nobody defended and praised last year's defense more than I did, but they managed to burn up all that earned credibility pretty quickly this season.
I for one do not want the Giants to draft a qb withtheir 1st pick.  
GeorgeFox : 12/5/2017 8:07 pm : link
They can leverage that pick and get perhaps 3 more picks in this draft and maybe 2 next year. The Giants I suspect will draft some top level olinemen and perhaps a LB or two. That is they way to start to rebuild this team.
Rebuild  
markky : 12/5/2017 8:35 pm : link
is the one player we take instead of Darnold/Rosen the guy that would send us to the SB during Eli's remaining years? is it worth passing on a QB for this possibility? absolutely not. no way.

RE: This team is not close  
NoGainDayne : 12/5/2017 8:53 pm : link
In comment 13726550 EricJ said:
Quote:
There is no run in our future with this core group. Buying q couple of bandaid free agents will just prolong the inevitable


I think people might be too down on the personnel because the team was mismanaged and the front office left positions bare consistently where other teams are much better and finding competent players / scheming around weaknesses. I count 4 borderline all pro players (Beckham, Snacks, Collins and Jackrabbit) Two pro bowlers (OV, Engram) and a QB that has won super bowls. That's more than most teams have. AND acting under the very fair assumption that McAdoo was a terrible coach the team still had the talent to go 11-5 last year.

Also, you take off Marshall, Fluker and Jerry and add Whitworth (a move many GMs might have chosen to make) and perhaps this team actually would have done something this year. I mean our punter pretty much lost us two games against good teams early on even one against the presumptive favorite in the NFC.

My other point here too is that Barkely to me seems like a generational talent. A difference maker the likes of a young AP. It's hard because you can't commit to a FA strategy before the draft but Barkely could make 7 pro bowlers which is the number for teams that win a lot of games...
RE: RE: This team is not close  
Beer Man : 12/5/2017 8:56 pm : link
In comment 13726562 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 13726550 EricJ said:


Quote:


There is no run in our future with this core group. Buying q couple of bandaid free agents will just prolong the inevitable


This team went 11-5 last year with the worst designed offensive gameplan in the history of football. They have a lot of talent. Build up the OL and bring in an OC with a brain and youíd be surprised.
+1
Take The QB  
Rong5611 : 12/6/2017 7:53 am : link
If the right guy is there, you take him. Rebuild.
RE: Take The QB  
NoGainDayne : 12/6/2017 1:12 pm : link
In comment 13727055 Rong5611 said:
Quote:
If the right guy is there, you take him. Rebuild.


That's the crux of this that isn't being discussed enough. The idea of the "right QB" which in my estimation for NFL weighs more towards does this QB remind me of the NFL prototype always with minimal talk of the fact that the game is changing.

We are going with the benefit of retrospect here but shouldn't we start using that retrospect. Just because a QB depends on mobility and they might be 6'2 or 6'1 does not mean they won't succeed in the NFL but it does seem to mean they will fall in the draft.

Rosen and Darnold scream to be the "safe" guys to me. When if you are looking at pure achievement. Does this guy win in a major conference? Do they lead their team? To me there seems to be too much pressure put on NFL owners to not take the mobile guy because of people like RGIII and Vince Young. And yes Watson got injured which is similar to RGIII and who knows Trubisky might develop. But if we are talking about VALUE which is the key to the draft I have to ask myself a question like this. Are you sold on Darnold or is it just conventional wisdom to take a player like that and few people like to deviate from conventional wisdom. Even injured, do you think the Bears would trade Trubisky for Watson straight up today? I think yes. These are final year of college stats what players are these?

Pass TD, Pass INT, Pass Yards, Completion PCT, Y/A, Rush Attempts, Rush Yards, Rush TDs, YR

33, 4, 3175, 72.8, 10.3, 79, 338, 6, SR
41, 5, 4340, 71.0, 11.8, 85, 310, 5, SR

How about this second set?

34, 11, 3969, 55.4, 9.7, 82, -48, 6, JR
26, 12, 3787, 63.7, 8.7, 67, 90, 5, RS SO


1st is Russell Wilson and 2nd is Baker Mayfield

3rd player is Ryan Leaf and the 4th is Sam Darnold

Now if you want to start talking about character and Leaf not having it and blah blah. A. The Chargers didn't see it and B. I know plenty of USC grads and there is a reason they have reputations as spoiled rich kids and party guys.

Leinart and Sanchez never put the work in to master their craft. And Palmer, easily the most talented of the bunch never reached his full potential. I'm not saying that Darnold definitely is that way just that his problems with decision making are probably just as much about preparation as anything.

Say what you want about Mayfield and his obscene gestures but he's a guy that knows how to attack the defense he's playing every game.





.  
arcarsenal : 12/6/2017 1:17 pm : link
To be fair, Watson got hurt during practice - his ACL popped.

Could have happened to any QB. Mobile or not.
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