Where do you get his replacement? You won't get a free agent of equal talent without overpaying that guy. Replace him in the drsft? Maybe but probably not with anybody 3rd round or lower. Draft a tackle in the first 2 rounds, we'll still need 2 guards from somewhere. And possibly a center.
... but he's been playing without help from his linemates, or the offensive approach.
Macadoo's approach never did serve these young guys and their present abilities.... the entire unit has been playing on it's heals for 2 years. When they started Punching People in the Mouth (inserting Fluker and Dumping Perkins for Darkwa), they seemed to be on the cusp of establishing a physical presence for the first time in several years..... the injuries and the losses already had them pickled.
I'd give him 5/35 but with only about 5 million guaranteed. Giants would be foolish to give him more especially after being burned with injuries to Snee, Baas and Schwartz
To keep making the same mistake is a sign of poor organizational decision making
In 2015, out of Brandon Scherff (#5) by the Skins (Pro Bowl)
In 2016, out of Jack Conklin (#8) by the Titans (ALL PRO)
I hope, this year, we can pick high enough to get a shot at Nelson. If we get screwed again (or worse, if we reach for a lesser player), all the pain and humiliation of this year will be multiplied.
Flowers looks like he's finally "getting it"; DJ (Jesus) Fluker is just starting to play up to his potential. These two have tremendous natural ability.
That leaves three spots to fill. LG, Center, Right Tackle. If we snatch up Nelson, two.
...not a precise count, but the tally looks something like this:
For those who provided an explicit grade, the count looks like this:
"A" (Pay fair market value) 5
"B" (Steep discount) 9
"C" (Let him walk) 4
For those without an explicit grade, here's my interpretation/understanding as to what the tally probably looks like:
"A" (Pay fair market value) 12
"B" (Steep discount) 5
"C" (Let him walk) 4
One interesting tidbit is that -- for those who did NOT provide an explicit grade -- the general view is heavily tilted toward paying Pugh fair market value (12 votes). In contrast, for those who provided an explicit grade, the prevailing sentiment is pay only a steep discount.
This is what the combined scores look like:
"A" (Pay fair market value) 17 (44%)
"B" (Steep discount) 14 (36%)
"C" (Let him walk) 8 (20%)
Personally, my thoughts on Pugh fluctuate wildly depending on my mood. When I get pissed as hell thinking back over the past 5 years of shit O-line play, I say let Pugh walk. Good riddance. And when I try to look at the situation with a cold, calculating eye, I fall somewhere between "A" and "B"... maybe give Pugh either a decent 1-year prove-it-deal, or a longer incentive-laden deal.
One last thought about this guy. Continuity is crucial for O-line play, and I'm sorry to say that Pugh is a continuity-killer with all his injuries. I can't reasonably expect that to change in the future. Maybe it would be best to wish him well and simply part ways.
We should look to re-sign Fluker. Our run game improved and so did he. He came cheap last year, but not sure he will be so cheap this year with the dearth of talent of this year's FA crop.
Jones is a RFA. There has been no drop-off in performance from Richburg, and to some degree an improvement with regards to preventing the pocket collapsing. He is a squat/stout man that anchors well. Can we improve? Yes. But in the short term, we have bigger issues so I would bring him back with a low round tender.
Jerry should be released, but if he is retained then he should be depth only. I just don't like paying a guy $3M to be a back-up. Let Halapio serve that roll along with being a back-up center. Halapio would need to be resigned, but he should come cheaper than Jerry and provides depth for 2 positions.
Wheeler and Bisno spend an off-season in the gym and hopefully come ready to compete. I just don't see them as starter material next year.
Hart is under contract and should only be depth. He is not an NFL starter.
The big question is what to do with Flowers? I think it is imperative that the team finds what position he can play the best. I don't think he should remain at LT. His 5th year option is $14M if the option is picked up in May. Absent of picking up the option, then next year is his last. Finding where he fits best will pay off in the long term. If he stays at LT, I expect that he'll continue to struggle and then be gone at season's end.
If Flowers moves into the interior (I think his best role where he does not have to operate in space), then we need a LT and RT. If Flowers moves to RT, then we need a G and LT. And obviously, if Flowers remains at LT, then we need a G and RT.
No matter how we shuffle the pieces, we need two starters. Personal feelings aside (I don't like Pugh), we may have to re-sign him. He is making $8M this year. He'll look to be paid in the $10M/yr range. I just don't see how paying a player with a history of missing multiple games every year due to injury is a wise investment. When he is healthy, he has not elevated the play of those around him. Can he be had on a short-term $6M/yr contract with incentives for being active for games($100K/game)?
Typically. So there is less data out there from the 'scouts'.
SY- get on those guards and tackles stat!
A good concept is to add fewer but higher quality pieces at this point. As usual we already have a pile of maybe tackles, although I think Pugh is better than maybe at T when healthy. Nor great but not a huge question mark either. You have to be willing to try flowers at G and RT and bench him if that's not your best line. My worry is his balance is not great.
don't let the door hit you on the way out Justin....
Bringing Pugh back on a 1-2 year deal that allows him to build up his value again and so that he can prove he can stay healthy for a full year.
He's had 1 year that hes played in all 16 games, and that was his rookie year. Now with the back issue, I am not sure how much that will hurt his value, but it has to hurt at least a litte.
Like many others have said, there are TOO many holes on this OL. If you can plug 2 with adequate play out of Flowers and Pugh, keep Fluker/Jones/Jerry as backup plans, and sign/draft 3 more guys, you should have enough pieces to make an at least AVERAGE OL.
throw a lot of money his way, leaving the giants out in the cold. Would like to sign him at average pay if only due to his flexibility on the line, doesn't look like it will happen, move on...
He was quoted saying his back kept "locking up". That sounds like a disc problem. If true, discs take a long time to heal and are easier to injure from then on.
Flowers looks like he's finally "getting it"; DJ (Jesus) Fluker is just starting to play up to his potential. These two have tremendous natural ability.
That leaves three spots to fill. LG, Center, Right Tackle. If we snatch up Nelson, two.
So, the line would look like this ....
Flowers; Nelson; "X"; Fluker; "X"
Please. Welcome to BBI where the o-line is a POS but everyone wants to keep the same players. Can we get away from declaring "lousy" as "good"?
Flowers is a mediocre LT. He plays next season because he is still under contract, and he needs to play his ass off to earn another contract because right now he is a #9 pick bust. Fluker flat out sucks as a pass blocker-that's why the Chargers let him go. He's been around long enough that he is what he is- a Jerry Reach filled-with-hope-for-a-miracle bargain basement acquisition. And don't hand me the running game- it still stinks. Let him walk. The play will be just as bad if the cast doesn't change and we need to hold auditions.
Can we get 5 linemen who are all good at the same thing? It can be 5 good run blockers or 5 good pass blockers, it doesn't matter. This mix and match system we have isn't working. I think the Giants are writing Manning the check in March so we might was well get 5 pass blockers.
Pugh is an average NFL guard and should get an average NFL guard's money. He can at least pass block without needing 2 players to assist him so he should get a fair offer.
If the money makes sense. The Giants need to re-build their O-line. They have to start by salvaging whatever pieces of the existing group that are still functional. They need to focus at the top of the draft on the LT and Guard positions and move Flowers to RT. They will not be able to draft five linemen at each position and expect improvement. They may need to sign a O-lineman in free agency although the crop of FAs is not special they could find someone who is better than what they have now. Pugh and D.J. Fluker have shown enough to be functional . Jones is too small but is a useful back up and a tough player. I think Weston Richburg has declined, for reasons unknown, and needs to be replaced and John Jerry is awful and a total waste.
but not for top dollar. The Giants already have a lot of big contracts out there with more to come. If Pugh can come back for an injury discount, then fine.
which looks good overall (ie 4-40), but is very low in guarantees, making it easy to give him the boot in a year or two.
No way do you give him a premium, high dollar, high guarantee contract. He isn't premium when healthy, and he spends too much time not being healthy.
the only thing that keeps him from being highly sought after is his injury thing. He's good, and that'll get teams coming around, but, he is not worth anywhere near what he might get on the open market.
on that OL already without letting the best player they have there walk, they do need to resign him but it will be dependant on his contract demands versus his health issues reducing his price some to reflect that,i dont think richburg will demand a high price in free agency either but jones has come in with no apprecative drop off so if you let someone walk better its richburg over pugh
either in free agency or the draft they need a LT and move flowers to RT or inside to guard he isnt an nfl LT and reese's failure to replace him,or bring in anyone to seriously challenge or with potential to replace him if he didnt improve was ultimately his demise with the team
pugh can play multiple positions across the line and could even be the LT even short term if that is so he would be worth keeping try it this week move pugh out to LT switch flowers over to RT see if this works or not and use what you learn to make your decision on what you do along the OL
Macadoo's approach never did serve these young guys and their present abilities.... the entire unit has been playing on it's heals for 2 years. When they started Punching People in the Mouth (inserting Fluker and Dumping Perkins for Darkwa), they seemed to be on the cusp of establishing a physical presence for the first time in several years..... the injuries and the losses already had them pickled.
I'd give him 5/35 but with only about 5 million guaranteed. Giants would be foolish to give him more especially after being burned with injuries to Snee, Baas and Schwartz
To keep making the same mistake is a sign of poor organizational decision making
In 2015, out of Brandon Scherff (#5) by the Skins (Pro Bowl)
In 2016, out of Jack Conklin (#8) by the Titans (ALL PRO)
I hope, this year, we can pick high enough to get a shot at Nelson. If we get screwed again (or worse, if we reach for a lesser player), all the pain and humiliation of this year will be multiplied.
Flowers looks like he's finally "getting it"; DJ (Jesus) Fluker is just starting to play up to his potential. These two have tremendous natural ability.
That leaves three spots to fill. LG, Center, Right Tackle. If we snatch up Nelson, two.
So, the line would look like this ....
Flowers; Nelson; "X"; Fluker; "X"
For those who provided an explicit grade, the count looks like this:
"A" (Pay fair market value) 5
"B" (Steep discount) 9
"C" (Let him walk) 4
For those without an explicit grade, here's my interpretation/understanding as to what the tally probably looks like:
"A" (Pay fair market value) 12
"B" (Steep discount) 5
"C" (Let him walk) 4
One interesting tidbit is that -- for those who did NOT provide an explicit grade -- the general view is heavily tilted toward paying Pugh fair market value (12 votes). In contrast, for those who provided an explicit grade, the prevailing sentiment is pay only a steep discount.
This is what the combined scores look like:
"A" (Pay fair market value) 17 (44%)
"B" (Steep discount) 14 (36%)
"C" (Let him walk) 8 (20%)
Personally, my thoughts on Pugh fluctuate wildly depending on my mood. When I get pissed as hell thinking back over the past 5 years of shit O-line play, I say let Pugh walk. Good riddance. And when I try to look at the situation with a cold, calculating eye, I fall somewhere between "A" and "B"... maybe give Pugh either a decent 1-year prove-it-deal, or a longer incentive-laden deal.
One last thought about this guy. Continuity is crucial for O-line play, and I'm sorry to say that Pugh is a continuity-killer with all his injuries. I can't reasonably expect that to change in the future. Maybe it would be best to wish him well and simply part ways.
If he had better guys around him he would be better. He could be part of a great line.
Don t think his new contract should reflect how high he was taken in the draft, but he could be a valuable cog in rebuilding of offensive line.
Timing is the key as it will depend on the draft, the new GM's have a say...free agency....
And cost. He may want to stay short term Depending who's who.
Jones is a RFA. There has been no drop-off in performance from Richburg, and to some degree an improvement with regards to preventing the pocket collapsing. He is a squat/stout man that anchors well. Can we improve? Yes. But in the short term, we have bigger issues so I would bring him back with a low round tender.
Jerry should be released, but if he is retained then he should be depth only. I just don't like paying a guy $3M to be a back-up. Let Halapio serve that roll along with being a back-up center. Halapio would need to be resigned, but he should come cheaper than Jerry and provides depth for 2 positions.
Wheeler and Bisno spend an off-season in the gym and hopefully come ready to compete. I just don't see them as starter material next year.
Hart is under contract and should only be depth. He is not an NFL starter.
The big question is what to do with Flowers? I think it is imperative that the team finds what position he can play the best. I don't think he should remain at LT. His 5th year option is $14M if the option is picked up in May. Absent of picking up the option, then next year is his last. Finding where he fits best will pay off in the long term. If he stays at LT, I expect that he'll continue to struggle and then be gone at season's end.
If Flowers moves into the interior (I think his best role where he does not have to operate in space), then we need a LT and RT. If Flowers moves to RT, then we need a G and LT. And obviously, if Flowers remains at LT, then we need a G and RT.
No matter how we shuffle the pieces, we need two starters. Personal feelings aside (I don't like Pugh), we may have to re-sign him. He is making $8M this year. He'll look to be paid in the $10M/yr range. I just don't see how paying a player with a history of missing multiple games every year due to injury is a wise investment. When he is healthy, he has not elevated the play of those around him. Can he be had on a short-term $6M/yr contract with incentives for being active for games($100K/game)?
SY- get on those guards and tackles stat!
A good concept is to add fewer but higher quality pieces at this point. As usual we already have a pile of maybe tackles, although I think Pugh is better than maybe at T when healthy. Nor great but not a huge question mark either. You have to be willing to try flowers at G and RT and bench him if that's not your best line. My worry is his balance is not great.
Way overrated by many here. avg player + constantly hurt = let walk
A good player.
Sure he's the best OL on this line, but we aren't very advanced.
If not - C
But was for a long time underrated as a tackle relative to our deal here.
For those looking QB here high. How many holes can you fill in one season in the line will be the puzzle.
This, although he is unlikely to sign one. He needs a big payday before his health starts to really go downhill.
He's had 1 year that hes played in all 16 games, and that was his rookie year. Now with the back issue, I am not sure how much that will hurt his value, but it has to hurt at least a litte.
Like many others have said, there are TOO many holes on this OL. If you can plug 2 with adequate play out of Flowers and Pugh, keep Fluker/Jones/Jerry as backup plans, and sign/draft 3 more guys, you should have enough pieces to make an at least AVERAGE OL.
Short term, team friendly deal only.
Flowers looks like he's finally "getting it"; DJ (Jesus) Fluker is just starting to play up to his potential. These two have tremendous natural ability.
That leaves three spots to fill. LG, Center, Right Tackle. If we snatch up Nelson, two.
So, the line would look like this ....
Flowers; Nelson; "X"; Fluker; "X"
Flowers is a mediocre LT. He plays next season because he is still under contract, and he needs to play his ass off to earn another contract because right now he is a #9 pick bust. Fluker flat out sucks as a pass blocker-that's why the Chargers let him go. He's been around long enough that he is what he is- a Jerry Reach filled-with-hope-for-a-miracle bargain basement acquisition. And don't hand me the running game- it still stinks. Let him walk. The play will be just as bad if the cast doesn't change and we need to hold auditions.
Can we get 5 linemen who are all good at the same thing? It can be 5 good run blockers or 5 good pass blockers, it doesn't matter. This mix and match system we have isn't working. I think the Giants are writing Manning the check in March so we might was well get 5 pass blockers.
Pugh is an average NFL guard and should get an average NFL guard's money. He can at least pass block without needing 2 players to assist him so he should get a fair offer.
You may be right (hope you're wrong about Flowers and Fluker).
Pugh has never been anything but an OK guy, now he's got a bad back.
Richburg is a mystery, how he faded; Jerry's a back-up ...
On-and-on, what a mess !
No way do you give him a premium, high dollar, high guarantee contract. He isn't premium when healthy, and he spends too much time not being healthy.
the only thing that keeps him from being highly sought after is his injury thing. He's good, and that'll get teams coming around, but, he is not worth anywhere near what he might get on the open market.
either in free agency or the draft they need a LT and move flowers to RT or inside to guard he isnt an nfl LT and reese's failure to replace him,or bring in anyone to seriously challenge or with potential to replace him if he didnt improve was ultimately his demise with the team
pugh can play multiple positions across the line and could even be the LT even short term if that is so he would be worth keeping try it this week move pugh out to LT switch flowers over to RT see if this works or not and use what you learn to make your decision on what you do along the OL