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The Case for Chucky.

TC : 12/6/2017 5:47 pm
Iíve never been fond of Jon Gruden, and was dead set against him ever being considered as HC for the Giants. I am uncertain of my ability to judge his technical proficiency, but Iíve always thought him a little bit of a lightweight in that regard. And that combined with his demeanor during his previous stint made me believe he shouldnít be considered.

But, Iíve been reevaluating my opinion, and if in the unlikely event he should have any interest, it might make sense to talk with him. But this comes with a big proviso; and that is IF he can be staffed with solid people at both OC and DC to attend to the details.

My reasons for thinking he may be successful here are likely a little unusual:

1. Coaching in NYC marketplace is different. Part of the job description is being able to relate well to and communicate with the media. What happens when a coach canít has just been illustrated. (Not that he needed any help!)

Grudenís earlier stint as HC was characterized by him making some ill-considered and unhelpful remarks. But heís matured and become a lot more media-savvy since his work in broadcasting. And his voluble and passionate nature stands a chance of working to the clubís advantage with the media.

2. Heís still passionate about the game and this enthusiasm and his outspoken command of language will demand the playersí attention, and he may eventually demand their respect as well. This isnít a guy whoís going to stand quietly on the side line and ignore what his players are doing. I believe he can be an effective motivator. But his style as a coach has also always been direct and no-nonsense, he wonít be a push over either.

3. If the team is going to go looking for a new franchise QB, Gruden isnít the worst guy to go looking with.

4. His strength is the offense, and given the chance, he has a shot at helping recruit an talented OC, give him a solid DC, and he might be able to build a competent and synergistic staff
And 5  
burtmanjack : 12/6/2017 6:04 pm : link
We wonít have to listen to him on MNF anymore.
no  
bc4life : 12/6/2017 6:10 pm : link
no
Hell  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 12/6/2017 6:13 pm : link
no.

I want no part of him.
I bet weíd be a lot better at putting the defensive end  
mfsd : 12/6/2017 6:19 pm : link
ďinto conflictĒ

But I still donít want him
Don't know what it is  
HomerJones45 : 12/6/2017 6:27 pm : link
but he left two train wrecks in his wake. No thank you
In terms of coaching ability  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/6/2017 6:41 pm : link
I think Gruden is a lot closer to Jim Fassel than Tom Coughlin. I don't know what it is about his TV career that's made people think he's a savior or a franchise fixer. He won a championship with a foundation of hall of fame defensive players that were already therr before him. He's good at working with veteran QBs. Despite being depicted as a QB wizard, name one that he developed from the draft.

These are all viable reasons  
GiantTuff1 : 12/6/2017 7:35 pm : link
I have sort of warmed up to him recently too.

One of the major reasons is his work with QB's at the end of their career rope.

He took a late 30's Rich Gannon, who was no exceptional standout in his career, and turned him into an MVP type quarterback.

Then he took Brad Johnson, a middling but slightly above average journeyman, and made him the piece of a Super Bowl winning team.

The wildcard is I think he likes working with veteran QBs, and that would play right into the potential that Mara and Co. want the proper sendoff for Eli, and Gruden would love to work with a Manning in his career.

I also think Gruden has a great mix between entertaining relate-ability, and hard ass motivator when needed. He can flip the switch just like that. He is certainly a communicator and leader of men, there's no question. Guy is as confident as Parcells.

So while at first I didn't want it, I'm certainly not against the Giants speaking with him. He is 54 now, so a couple years younger than Coughlin was when he interviewed and got the job in 2004.

Plus, he's a former head coach, something the front office might value.
I thought Gruden did a really good job in Oakland  
djm : 12/6/2017 7:38 pm : link
And he didn't exactly fuck things up in Tampa. My impressions are the guy knows what he's doing and always had a plan. Not just a game plan but a guy that knows how to build a team.

Who knows what gruden would bring to this franchise or if it's even feasible but I wouldn't be mad at all if he was brought in as HC. The guy succeeded in two spots.
Coaching numbers  
djm : 12/6/2017 7:41 pm : link
Postseason: 5Ė4 (.556)
Career: 100Ė85 (.541)
.  
arcarsenal : 12/6/2017 7:42 pm : link
I'm lukewarm at best on him - but I will say that his time away from coaching has probably shown him the game in a different light and I bet he's learned a bit since he last coached and gained some new perspective.

I still wouldn't be doing cartwheels if he was the guy - but I don't think it would really bother me, either.
Gruden's expertise is coaching QBs  
EricJ : 12/6/2017 7:43 pm : link
.
RE: Don't know what it is  
djm : 12/6/2017 7:45 pm : link
In comment 13728317 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
but he left two train wrecks in his wake. No thank you


What? He left Oakland and they were light years better than before he got there. They went to a super bowl after he left. Plus, gruden's shady departure was in large part because Al Davis was insane. I don't even have to research that. Al's persona or wacky involvement had to have been a factor there.

Here's the thing. A 40 year old bill parcells isn't available. Who are we choosing from? Gruden might be the best of the lot.
we need fresh ideas  
mdc1 : 12/6/2017 7:48 pm : link
not retreads. We have a clean state to do it right with no half measures. That is what is wrong with this org, half measures and the adults left the building (Ernie, Wellington, etc).
A lot of retreads succeed  
djm : 12/6/2017 7:50 pm : link
Be careful what you wish for. Mcadoo had fresh ideas and wasn't a retread.

Belichick was a retread. So was vermeil. So was parcells in New England. So was Tom coughlin.

TC  
joeinpa : 12/6/2017 7:57 pm : link
tell me a good quarterback Gruden drafted or developed.

The answer is, none
I would like to see what Gruden  
kelsto811 : 12/6/2017 7:59 pm : link
Could do with Eli in one final year. But beyond that thought, not crazy about it. That said, I have no idea who I want.
RE: TC  
Dr. D : 12/6/2017 8:50 pm : link
In comment 13728393 joeinpa said:
Quote:
tell me a good quarterback Gruden drafted or developed.

The answer is, none


No expert on Gruden and his drafting of QBs, but he won the SB basically with a journeyman Brad Johnson and took another journeyman Rich Gannon close to the SB.
Not saying I definitely want Gruden  
Dr. D : 12/6/2017 8:52 pm : link
just saying if you can take a journeyman QB to the SB, drafting a QB might not have been a priority at the time.
I would  
jtfuoco : 12/6/2017 9:30 pm : link
welcome him the guy has had success with old or middle of the pack QBs and I like his style I am sure he will at least turn this team back into a playoff team fast. Also he is a well known guy so he should be able to recruit some high quality coaches for his staff instead of the rejects that Mac had to go get. What kind of defense does his teams run?
With the cavalcade of coaches  
Bill in TN : 12/6/2017 9:38 pm : link
being offered by the media "experts", I woudn't dismiss Gruden so quickly, as some have done on this board.
He's a proven coach, can be no nonsense when he has to be, and is in tune with the league and its players by virtue of him MNF gig.
Aside from that, I'm intrigued by Vrabel.
RE: TC  
djm : 12/6/2017 10:16 pm : link
In comment 13728393 joeinpa said:
Quote:
tell me a good quarterback Gruden drafted or developed.

The answer is, none


So? He was on two teams that had good qbs. Are you really saying that Gruden can't develop a young qb? Really? Based on what? I've seen others say this too. Why? Someone else actually said he can only develop or work with vet qbs. What?

First off how would anyone really know whether the guy can or can't develop a young qb and second, is that even possible? A guy who has been in the NFL for decades and has seen it all, won with two older qbs can't coach one that is 5-10 years younger? Ok... whatever. Love how fans form some narratives.
RE: Don't know what it is  
micky : 12/6/2017 10:43 pm : link
In comment 13728317 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
but he left two train wrecks in his wake. No thank you


this
Oakland wasn't a trainwreck, they just came off a division winning  
PatersonPlank : 12/6/2017 10:51 pm : link
season. I believe there isn't 1 HC candidate that BBI will like. Just look at the threads, everyone hates all of them. Gruden isn't perfect, but here's a guy with 5 division titles and 1 SB in 11 years. He also turned around the Raiders franchise. I think his resume is right up there with anyone we will get. The only way people find a better resume is to hire a guy who doesn't have one, and I don't want to go that DC or OC route again.

The other candidate I like is Harbaugh, the Baltimore one.
Gruden took a previously crap . . . .  
TC : 12/6/2017 11:12 pm : link
Raiders team to the playoffs 2 of his 4 years there. His record with them was 40 - 28. Then Crazy Al intervened. The team he left in a "mess" went to the Superbowl the following year, where Gruden's Buc's promptly destroyed them.

Yeah, he sucks!
RE: RE: TC  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/6/2017 11:13 pm : link
In comment 13728472 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 13728393 joeinpa said:


Quote:


tell me a good quarterback Gruden drafted or developed.

The answer is, none



So? He was on two teams that had good qbs. Are you really saying that Gruden can't develop a young qb? Really? Based on what?




First off how would anyone really know whether the guy can or can't develop a young qb and second, is that even possible? A guy who has been in the NFL for decades and has seen it all, won with two older qbs can't coach one that is 5-10 years younger? Ok... whatever. Love how fans form some narratives. [/quote]

Based on the fact that he's never done it. Jon Gruden owned that franchise. Ownership wanted Gruden, overruled their own GM and traded two first round picks, two second round picks, and $8m cash to get Gruden. They did everything he wanted, including firing the GM that built that team into a super bowl winner and had been there for 10 years before Gruden.

He inherited Rich Gannon. He inherited Brad Johnson. After Brad Johnson left Tampa, the list of quarterbacks that started for Jon Gruden is as follows:

Rob Johnson
Tim Rattay
Luke McCown
Bruce Gradkowski (6th)
Chris Simms (3rd)
Jeff Garcia
Brian Griese

These are quarterbacks he wanted. And he can't blame management incompetence either, since the GM who replaced McKay was Bruce Allen, another respected name.

People misremember history like Jon Gruden went to tampa and paved the streets with gold. That team had three hall of famers coached up by Tony Dungy in their prime on defense and has been in the playoffs every year two years before Gruden got there. He won with that team, went 7-9 the next year, then went 5-11 the year after.
RE: Gruden took a previously crap . . . .  
BigBlue4You09 : 12/6/2017 11:17 pm : link
In comment 13728490 TC said:
Quote:
Raiders team to the playoffs 2 of his 4 years there. His record with them was 40 - 28. Then Crazy Al intervened. The team he left in a "mess" went to the Superbowl the following year, where Gruden's Buc's promptly destroyed them.

Yeah, he sucks!


That was like 20 years ago, he hasnít coached in almost 10.
RE: In terms of coaching ability  
santacruzom : 12/7/2017 12:03 am : link
In comment 13728328 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
I think Gruden is a lot closer to Jim Fassel than Tom Coughlin. I don't know what it is about his TV career that's made people think he's a savior or a franchise fixer. He won a championship with a foundation of hall of fame defensive players that were already therr before him. He's good at working with veteran QBs. Despite being depicted as a QB wizard, name one that he developed from the draft.


Did he ever have to develop a QB from the draft? I thought his supposed forte was in helping career backups and journeymen improve dramatically.
RE: RE: In terms of coaching ability  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/7/2017 12:09 am : link
In comment 13728507 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 13728328 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


I think Gruden is a lot closer to Jim Fassel than Tom Coughlin. I don't know what it is about his TV career that's made people think he's a savior or a franchise fixer. He won a championship with a foundation of hall of fame defensive players that were already therr before him. He's good at working with veteran QBs. Despite being depicted as a QB wizard, name one that he developed from the draft.




Did he ever have to develop a QB from the draft? I thought his supposed forte was in helping career backups and journeymen improve dramatically.


Phil Simms' son. But for the most part he had no time for rookie QBs. He went after a lot of journeymen.
He's an offensive guru who had one  
bigbluescot : 12/7/2017 4:27 am : link
top 5 offense (99 raiders who were 5th).
HELL  
Allen in CNJ : 12/7/2017 4:45 am : link
NO
Howabout a coach  
JonC : 12/7/2017 7:25 am : link
who's actually coached in the NFL in the last ten years ...
You guys..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/7/2017 8:35 am : link
are really underestimating the workload he took on as coach.

He's told many people that he was killing himself prepping. He felt like he was exhausted and he burned out. That's the main reason he never returned to the sidelines. He had several offers to return his first few years, but he prefers the more relaxed schedule of broadcasting.

If he felt burned out 10 years ago and he's now in his mid-50's, I don't think he'd look forward to the grueling schedule.

But he gets mentioned here all the time - as if it is 2008 again.
hell no.what is it with the same old recycled shit about bringing back  
Victor in CT : 12/7/2017 8:45 am : link
burnt out ex-coaches who have been in the booth for 5-10 years? The Cowher ones are even dumber.
If they want Gruden  
Pete in 'Vliet : 12/7/2017 9:06 am : link
They should give Tony Dungy a two year deal first and let him build a contending team for Chicky to take over. :)
The word..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/7/2017 9:16 am : link
that people keep using when it comes to coaching candidates is "inspiring".

But it is such a moving target that I have no clue what defines it.

Apparently Cowher and Gruden are "inspiring" choices, but some guy nobody has heard of (mostly through faults of their own) aren't considered inspiring.

It is all pretty much BS. People have little clue about some OC, position coach or DC, but they've heard of Cowher and Gruden. Inspiring!!
RE: RE: RE: In terms of coaching ability  
djm : 12/7/2017 10:37 am : link
In comment 13728509 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13728507 santacruzom said:


Quote:


In comment 13728328 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


I think Gruden is a lot closer to Jim Fassel than Tom Coughlin. I don't know what it is about his TV career that's made people think he's a savior or a franchise fixer. He won a championship with a foundation of hall of fame defensive players that were already therr before him. He's good at working with veteran QBs. Despite being depicted as a QB wizard, name one that he developed from the draft.




Did he ever have to develop a QB from the draft? I thought his supposed forte was in helping career backups and journeymen improve dramatically.



Phil Simms' son. But for the most part he had no time for rookie QBs. He went after a lot of journeymen.


He had no time for crappy young QBs. Just because he didn't turn a crappy young QB into a good one doesn't mean he won't do it or can't do it. Of all the things to kill Gruden for I have a hard time killing him for lack of QB development. He turned Gannon into an MVP caliber player. He turned Johnson into a super bowl champion. Are you telling me if the Giants drafted a young first round QB that gruden would fuck him all up based on his "failures" with Chris Simms? And actually, I think Brian Griese had some good moments under Gruden...It's a stretch either way.
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