He like Eli won 2 SB as a G.M and as bad as some of the drafts were lately he had great ones during the first half o the career and won 2 SB.... The dude never got to hire his own coach and draft his own qb.....You do not see that on long-tenured GM let alone one that won 2 rings. O-line was not fixed but that is also a product of an old qb with zero mobility that cant do shit when someone screams at him. I just feel that if we are going to throw around 2 SB to defend players the same can be said for the GM or coach.
It's no one's fault but your own that you are seemingly ungrateful about that.
After 2011, for many reasons stated above, failed attempts or no attempts at all by Jerry Reese, the offensive line continued to deteriorate.
In the year's since, Eli's had his moments, including last season in Green Bay where he was the best offensive player on the football field for us.
But if you can't see why at almost 37 years old, with no mobility to begin with, the QB would not be blamed for the overall offensive failure when the offensive line in front of him stinks, that's on you.
I gave Eli his due and said he was a top 3 qb easily that year...He is the main reason we won that SB in 2011...He was fantastic with a bad oline and the 32nd ranked rushing offense in the league...A defense that in the regular season was terrible and went through a stretch of giving up the most yards and points in franchise history. We were 9-7 and would have been 3-13 if not for Eli that year. That was the last year I felt he made an impact on the outcome of a season....Does not mean I do not see that Eli at this point is no more serviciable to the team than Geno smith as evidence by Geno actually scoring 2 tds last week when Eli had gone 24 drives withiout a td. Yet people blamed it on the referee screwing the raiders or Geno getting lucky
Wouldn't Tom Coughlin's second and third chances also be Reese's second or third chance?
Couldn't you say it Coughlin got three chances, Reese got four?
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How many times did Tom get called into the principals office and get a second or third chance? Yet everyone was just flabbergasted when he was fired. Tom acted like a woman stood up on a date.
Wouldn't Tom Coughlin's second and third chances also be Reese's second or third chance?
Couldn't you say it Coughlin got three chances, Reese got four?
You're probably right. I would've been fine firing everyone then.
To me, one of JR's biggest issues as a GM (vs. being the head of scouting) was an inability to develop and implement a coherent long term plan for roster building. Over the past 10 years, the Giants have repeatedly found themselves a year or two later than should have been the case scrambling to fill GAPING holes that crushed them the year prior (or sometimes, the 2-3 years prior). We saw this scenario play out at S, CB, OL, WR, TE, and RB (and LB...though that was a hole we seemed content to just ride with).
Where I do increasingly feel that the Giants model is off is the role ownership seems to play in picking the coach. The traditional logic seems to be you hire a GM who hires the coach. I just don't get the sense that's how the Giants ownership views things. And if you think about it, that would also help explain why at least to a certain degree, there never seemed to be a full marriage between scheme/vision being implemented at the coaching level and the players picked to fit that scheme by JR and crew.
To me, one of JR's biggest issues as a GM (vs. being the head of scouting) was an inability to develop and implement a coherent long term plan for roster building. Over the past 10 years, the Giants have repeatedly found themselves a year or two later than should have been the case scrambling to fill GAPING holes that crushed them the year prior (or sometimes, the 2-3 years prior). We saw this scenario play out at S, CB, OL, WR, TE, and RB (and LB...though that was a hole we seemed content to just ride with).
Where I do increasingly feel that the Giants model is off is the role ownership seems to play in picking the coach. The traditional logic seems to be you hire a GM who hires the coach. I just don't get the sense that's how the Giants ownership views things. And if you think about it, that would also help explain why at least to a certain degree, there never seemed to be a full marriage between scheme/vision being implemented at the coaching level and the players picked to fit that scheme by JR and crew.
Absolutely one thousand percent correct.
haha
However, most on here ripping Reese also say McAdoo is in over his head and is a terrible coach.
I have a hard time believing that a crappy coach can go 11-5, and be dominating a playoff game in Green Bay for almost 2 quarters with a crappy roster.
I've read on here that McAdoo is lousy, but that Reese creating this mess. Given the 11-5 record last year, logic tells me it can't be both.
As Eric pointed out on another thread, this is a big cross road - mainly because Reese was a good scout/GM for 23 years - they could end up worse.
I still maintain that coaching is the biggest issue, along with injuries.
Not saying I don't think Reese deserves to be gone, he should be. But, as far as McAdoo goes, it has been reported that he wasn't his choice.
Reported by whom? People around here have a frequent habit of grabbing whatever rumor fits their narrative and running with it. If it gets repeated enough times, people assume it's true, regardless of the source.
I think it was time for Reese to go too, but why do people talk in extremes about this case? Its not as if Reese was an outsider who came in from another team when Ernie retired and took credit for 'his' players. Reese was Ernie's right hand man and director of scouting for Christ sakes.
He's had a mixed track record here - had a terrific 5-6 years of drafting and building a roster, followed by 6 lousy ones. Was time for a new voice - but he did an overall good job for this organization and should be thanked for his efforts. Its ok not to have an extreme view once in a while. No... really.
2008:No one
2009: No one
2010: JPP, Linval Joseph
2011: Prince Amukamara
2012: No one
2013:Pugh, and Hankins
That is 5 out of 45 picks. That is below the Mendoza line.
2008:No one
2009: No one
2010: JPP, Linval Joseph
2011: Prince Amukamara
2012: No one
2013:Pugh, and Hankins
That is 5 out of 45 picks. That is below the Mendoza line.
And as somebody else mentioned only ONE of those got a second contract with the Giants.... And that ain't looking too hot, either.
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it has been reported that Reese recommended 2 coaches over McAdoo during the final decision, and that Mara ultimately chose McAdoo.
Not saying I don't think Reese deserves to be gone, he should be. But, as far as McAdoo goes, it has been reported that he wasn't his choice.
Reported by whom? People around here have a frequent habit of grabbing whatever rumor fits their narrative and running with it. If it gets repeated enough times, people assume it's true, regardless of the source.
Its called the BBI echo chamber with preferred talking points.
I was pro-Reese until that point.
But the decision to not pursue Whitworth indicated, to me, a world of thinking behind that decision which, again in my view, was totally fucked.
This +1000...I have said this before signing Whitworth would have changed the whole dynamic of this OL/ season...
You could have moved Flowers to RT and still had Pugh and Fluker at guard...
Instead Reese went "with the young guys we really like"...
Its called keep things safe and be lazy. Let's put some caulk on that hole a swipe of paint and we are ready to make SB run because we have Eli. They got lucky with some of that with some rosters because they had some guys that made very serious plays to change outcomes (Bradshaw, Plax, Smith, etc). The current rosters are filled with guys that do not lean in, they just do their job and collect their pay.
Not saying I don't think Reese deserves to be gone, he should be. But, as far as McAdoo goes, it has been reported that he wasn't his choice.
Does anyone know who the 2 were, I'm dying to know.
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own hype. I never bought the whole SB contender, guaranteed playoff thing, but many people did, and seemingly the Giants did. It would have been okay to go with "young guys we like" had they set the expectation that they were still building. But to foster the expectation that they had SB ambitions and not do anything to improve that OL was just plain stupid.
Its called keep things safe and be lazy. Let's put some caulk on that hole a swipe of paint and we are ready to make SB run because we have Eli. They got lucky with some of that with some rosters because they had some guys that made very serious plays to change outcomes (Bradshaw, Plax, Smith, etc). The current rosters are filled with guys that do not lean in, they just do their job and collect their pay.
Yeah, in hindsight it seems like 2011 convinced them that all they had to do was patch it together enough to make the tournament and Eli would get them through.
He screwed the GIANTS by hiring Marc Ross as his draft boss, and screwed the GIANTS again by not getting rid of him when it became apparent that Ross wasn't getting the job done properly or well.
Even management recognized that and made Reese get more involved with the later rounds of the draft.
Let's draft RB's and WR's, but not have an OL to make them effective?
Who the hell needs linebackers?
Who the hell needs TE's? Hell we had not 1, not 2, but at one time we had 3 undrafted TE's.....
How many times has Reese put us in the hole at the safety position?
I think if you switch Jerry Reese and Giants in your Header, it would be more accurate....
What I think the SB years proved:
Extremely skilled skill position players and a dominant defense can overcome mediocre to poor O-line play. Especially the 2011 team.
The thing that made Eli great in 2011 was the talent around him NOT on the OL.
Nicks (in his prime), Cruz (in his prime, even as a rookie), Manningham (at his best), with Jacobs and Bradshaw still healthy enough and a healthy Ballard.
The defense became good enough in the playoffs to make it count. We didn't win the NFC championship game in SF because of a dominant OL. Only reason we won was because the dominant SF defense didn't have an answer for Cruz, Nicks, Manningham, et al, and our own defense was able to shut down the Alex Smith led 9ers, in spite of the obvious mismatch they had at TE.
Same thing is true in the SB that year. We won because when NE sold out to stop Nicks and Cruz, Manningham made the play of his lifetime, and our defense kept us in the game.
Look at the 2007 year and see the same thing. Plax and Toomer were the reasons for our NFC Championship game (and the amazing defensive performances.
We saw that our offense could be a top unit (2014/2015) in spite of having a horrific line when we had good enough weapons at WR. Beckham on his own shows how the game can be changed by a legit threat. When you combine two or three of them on offense with a smart QB and deadly defense, your OL can be the worst in the league at running the ball and you can still win the SB.
That's the philosophy Reese bought into and what he was trying to accomplish with his rebuild. He invested heavily into the defense and built something very good last year. OBJ/Cruz/Rookie SS wasn't good enough with no TE and no threat at RB. This year he upgraded the TE position, brought in what was supposed to be an improved threat at WR in Marshall, and hoped for improvement in his OL and RB's. What happened?
The demise began when Beckham went out and we went into the DAL game unprepared and unable to react to the new-look DAL defense. Eli started the season poorly, and there was no commitment early on to the running game even when it had some success (look through the game logs in the opener against DAL if you don't remember). Early poor production by Perkins was tolerated since we'd named him the starter in the offseason, in spite of better performances at RB. We've had uneven performances by the OL and at QB, combined with a ton of drops in the passing game. We do not have any threats at the skill positions left sans a legit TE, one good WR and another good TE (not pro-bowl level, but nice complementary pieces).
Combine the offensive injuries and mistakes with a defense that couldn't execute the "graduate-level" defense Spags tried to install and you have a huge step backwards.
It is not true that you have to have a dominant OL to win the game. It is true that the players you have need to be able to hold their own. The team that Reese had assembled could have won something this year had they come together with some better coaching, continued their defensive success, and had better luck with injuries (especially OBJ). It's not just a failure to build an OL. That's a simplistic view of what's wrong here.
Best example of that is DAL, who has had one of the best OL's in recent memory and won exactly 1 playoff game with it.
“In 2010, we were getting beat up—we were still winning because we were still good enough. In 2011 when we won the Super Bowl, there were multiple guys getting hurt. By 2012, we went 9-7, but we were hanging on for dear life.
“When 2013 happened, there were six different starters at running back, three different starters at right guard, four different starters at center, three at left guard. This is a build up that needed to be addressed for a while.”
The deterioration of the offensive line combined with the fact that Manning is not a mobile quarterback ultimately led to some of the problems Manning has experienced the last few years.
“As I’ve said on numerous occasions, Eli will never and never has solved problem with his feet. He can solve it with his arm, he can solve it with his brain and he can solve it with his heart. But if you’re asking this guy to solve problems with his feet, you’ve got the wrong guy because that’s not who he is.”
Reese had a lot of years to fix this and couldn't do it which has resulted in this shit you see today.
What I think the SB years proved:
Extremely skilled skill position players and a dominant defense can overcome mediocre to poor O-line play. Especially the 2011 team.
The thing that made Eli great in 2011 was the talent around him NOT on the OL.
And yet, Eli still had time to take 5 and 7 step drops and wait for guys to get open downfield in 2011.
In 2017, he's getting hit as he releases the ball in 1.9 seconds on 3 step drops.
Nicks (in his prime), Cruz (in his prime, even as a rookie), Manningham (at his best), with Jacobs and Bradshaw still healthy enough and a healthy Ballard.
The defense became good enough in the playoffs to make it count. We didn't win the NFC championship game in SF because of a dominant OL. Only reason we won was because the dominant SF defense didn't have an answer for Cruz, Nicks, Manningham, et al, and our own defense was able to shut down the Alex Smith led 9ers, in spite of the obvious mismatch they had at TE.
Same thing is true in the SB that year. We won because when NE sold out to stop Nicks and Cruz, Manningham made the play of his lifetime, and our defense kept us in the game.
Look at the 2007 year and see the same thing. Plax and Toomer were the reasons for our NFC Championship game (and the amazing defensive performances.
We saw that our offense could be a top unit (2014/2015) in spite of having a horrific line when we had good enough weapons at WR. Beckham on his own shows how the game can be changed by a legit threat. When you combine two or three of them on offense with a smart QB and deadly defense, your OL can be the worst in the league at running the ball and you can still win the SB.
That's the philosophy Reese bought into and what he was trying to accomplish with his rebuild. He invested heavily into the defense and built something very good last year. OBJ/Cruz/Rookie SS wasn't good enough with no TE and no threat at RB. This year he upgraded the TE position, brought in what was supposed to be an improved threat at WR in Marshall, and hoped for improvement in his OL and RB's. What happened?
The demise began when Beckham went out and we went into the DAL game unprepared and unable to react to the new-look DAL defense. Eli started the season poorly, and there was no commitment early on to the running game even when it had some success (look through the game logs in the opener against DAL if you don't remember). Early poor production by Perkins was tolerated since we'd named him the starter in the offseason, in spite of better performances at RB. We've had uneven performances by the OL and at QB, combined with a ton of drops in the passing game. We do not have any threats at the skill positions left sans a legit TE, one good WR and another good TE (not pro-bowl level, but nice complementary pieces).
Combine the offensive injuries and mistakes with a defense that couldn't execute the "graduate-level" defense Spags tried to install and you have a huge step backwards.
It is not true that you have to have a dominant OL to win the game. It is true that the players you have need to be able to hold their own. The team that Reese had assembled could have won something this year had they come together with some better coaching, continued their defensive success, and had better luck with injuries (especially OBJ). It's not just a failure to build an OL. That's a simplistic view of what's wrong here.
Best example of that is DAL, who has had one of the best OL's in recent memory and won exactly 1 playoff game with it.
And yet, Eli still had time to take 5 and 7 step drops and wait for guys to get open downfield in 2011.
In 2017, he's getting hit as he releases the ball in 1.9 seconds on 3 step drops.
Correct. The "just sneak into the playoffs" and "get hot" mantra was a dangerous way of building a championship type ball club.
So many things have to go right even for that to work. Winning 3 playoff games just to get to the Super Bowl (before even winning it) is not commonplace, and yet, because the Giants did it twice in five years, it was as if they thought they could keep on doing it that way. As we have seen the last 5 years, a market correction has been in order.
They never had a sustainable model for consistent winning. That was never part of the program unfortunately.
These last years I think interference at the ownership level has hindered the entire operation . I hope the new VP-GM gains some measure of independence from ownership . John Mara should simply stay out of the operational decisions affecting his team . He needs to take a knee. Collect the receipts . Count the receipts . Pay the help.
He didn't ignore the offensive line as many have charged. He addressed it incompetently. Same with the linebackers.
...he had a very nice, long career with the organization making a very fine salary, not to mention what he will be receiveing while essentially on the beach.
As for his performance, I'm willing to recognize his successes many of which have been listed here.
But he proved to be ineffective in replenishing our O-line and LB corp. The O-line cost him his job and has created misery for Giants fans for half a decade.
Not good.
TMS : 3:28 pm : link : reply
first place. Coughlin brought the Giants back and was responsible for their success. Reese went along for the ride and got to pose and posture as a GM while making a lot of $$$. Everybody in the organization knows that I am sure. A real GM and ELI and the Giants a win few more SBs.
I wish fans were able to be fired for being fucking idiots. Might temper the way they look at the team. Then again - it might just be a cleanse of schmucks that don't have a clue
Granted, all these guys have egos, but that doesn’t mean lack of self-awareness. Always got the sense from his conferences Reese thought he was the smartest guy in the room (as limited as his conferences were).
Reese should also be aware of leadership gaps, which McAdoo should have informed him of. Instead he obstinately stuck to his gameplan and this is what happens as a result.
Had his ups and downs, but we’re beyond “what have you done for me lately” at this point.
And yet, Eli still had time to take 5 and 7 step drops and wait for guys to get open downfield in 2011.
In 2017, he's getting hit as he releases the ball in 1.9 seconds on 3 step drops.
That's a mischaracterization. I agree that he's had to deal with a bad line, but he seems to also be less willing to let take the deep shot. That may be due to coaching, scheme or maybe he's hearing footsteps, but he's much more willing to dump off now than he was, regardless of whether there is any pressure.
He's had a mixed track record here - had a terrific 5-6 years of drafting and building a roster, followed by 6 lousy ones. Was time for a new voice - but he did an overall good job for this organization and should be thanked for his efforts. Its ok not to have an extreme view once in a while. No... really. [/quote]
Well said, MAB. I think Reese was clearly a talented scout with an eye for talent at certain positions. Notice how his top 2 picks this last draft are actively contributing on the field. Two weeks ago, I was of the opinion that Jerry would survive this season. I think the fiasco with the Eli benching and Reese's undetermined role in this led to his being fired.
Who were the 2 candidates?
If he wants it, I have no doubt that he'll land another GM gig, and if that happens whatever team he ends up with will most likely have a better, more seasoned GM than the Giants end up with.