He like Eli won 2 SB as a G.M and as bad as some of the drafts were lately he had great ones during the first half o the career and won 2 SB.... The dude never got to hire his own coach and draft his own qb.....You do not see that on long-tenured GM let alone one that won 2 rings. O-line was not fixed but that is also a product of an old qb with zero mobility that cant do shit when someone screams at him. I just feel that if we are going to throw around 2 SB to defend players the same can be said for the GM or coach.
The end.
here is what Jerry Reese brought in the past 4 years
2014: Odell Beckham (2-time All-Pro), Weston Richburg, Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie (All-Pro 2016),
2015: Landon Collins (All-Pro)
2016: Janoris Jenkins (All-Pro), Olivier Vernon (All-Pro), Damon Harrison (All-Pro), Sterling Sheppard (All-Rookie team)
2017: Evan Engram Dalvin Tomlinson
This year coming into season we had 6 All Pros in our team .. and we only have 2 wins then the issues are with the coach and not players or GM
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a franchise QB, but a solid foundation in two competent and capable DL and OL which allowed him to indulge his team building philosophies and focus predominantly on skill playeys. As the lines grew old--more the OL than the DL-- Reese couldn't adjust effectively. You can make all the arguments you want but nothing is going to change the fact that he squandered the last 5 years of Eli's career and the overall success of the team with poor personnel decisions.
The end.
This. All day. This.
What I will reject loudly is this myth that Jerry Reese did nothing during tenure but ride the coattails of Ernie Accorsi, Eli Manning and Tom Coughlin. That's simply false.
Further, the idea the a HC of Coughlin's caliber had absolutely no say in the type of players brought in here throughout his stay isn't just bizarre, it's obstinate. It's fairly obvious to anyone who's paid attention to the organizational philosophy of the the years that Coughlin and Reese were in agreement. They covered athletes on both sides of the ball. Gamechangers at WR, CB and DE. It paid off twice.
The extent that some here will go pass all the credit to a QB who's been stellar at times, mediocre for long stretches and downright awful at times is fine. He's delivered two titles. Coughlin too, despite his warts. But then these same people will completely dismiss the contributions of the guy who Captained the entire ship and instead canonize the rug - who's now been away from the organization for more than a decade.
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a franchise QB, but a solid foundation in two competent and capable DL and OL which allowed him to indulge his team building philosophies and focus predominantly on skill playeys. As the lines grew old--more the OL than the DL-- Reese couldn't adjust effectively. You can make all the arguments you want but nothing is going to change the fact that he squandered the last 5 years of Eli's career and the overall success of the team with poor personnel decisions.
The end.
Yes and during that period our approach resembled "squirrels running around in the backyard"
here is what Jerry Reese brought in the past 4 years
2014: Odell Beckham (2-time All-Pro), Weston Richburg, Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie (All-Pro 2016),
2015: Landon Collins (All-Pro)
2016: Janoris Jenkins (All-Pro), Olivier Vernon (All-Pro), Damon Harrison (All-Pro), Sterling Sheppard (All-Rookie team)
2017: Evan Engram Dalvin Tomlinson
This year coming into season we had 6 All Pros in our team .. and we only have 2 wins then the issues are with the coach and not players or GM
Weston Richburg should not be listed as a positive. He's not that good. 2015 was great for him, the rest? I don't think so. As for the FA's, he only went after them because the defense was in such poor shape due to bad drafts and FA pickups prior to. That's a fact.
You have your opinions and I have mine....This is a Giants forum...Not a only post what we agree with or nothing else...
I feel like Reese was getting hammered by the fans a ton and so was TC, Ben, Reese, players and coaches but Eli has always been given a pass. Why do other teams function without a great or even good offensive line? We cannot expect to have a great oline all the time...We expect that a qb paid to make others better would rise above it...Once that is not possible is time to evaluate but no we fire a GM who was here for 2 rings and drafted some of the most popular players we had or have at the moment who get great reviews around the league.
What I will reject loudly is this myth that Jerry Reese did nothing during tenure but ride the coattails of Ernie Accorsi, Eli Manning and Tom Coughlin. That's simply false.
Further, the idea the a HC of Coughlin's caliber had absolutely no say in the type of players brought in here throughout his stay isn't just bizarre, it's obstinate. It's fairly obvious to anyone who's paid attention to the organizational philosophy of the the years that Coughlin and Reese were in agreement. They covered athletes on both sides of the ball. Gamechangers at WR, CB and DE. It paid off twice.
The extent that some here will go pass all the credit to a QB who's been stellar at times, mediocre for long stretches and downright awful at times is fine. He's delivered two titles. Coughlin too, despite his warts. But then these same people will completely dismiss the contributions of the guy who Captained the entire ship and instead canonize the rug - who's now been away from the organization for more than a decade.
Coughlin was held accountable, and lost his job, did he not? Two years ago. Gilbride before him.
Manning is being held accountable now, whether I agree with it or not.
Why would Reese not be held accountable, since he "captained the entire ship"? The entire ship has only been to the playoffs once in the past six years, and currently sits at a 2-10 record.
It's this idea that Reese had no part in winning two titles that I take issue with. It wasn't all fantastic coaching and QB play. Coughlin was Jekyll and Hyde. Start the season hot, then go 2-6 To finish the year. Beat the Pats in the SB. Get demolished by the Eagles at home in the playoffs.
They all share in the successes and failures.
You have your opinions and I have mine....This is a Giants forum...Not a only post what we agree with or nothing else...
I feel like Reese was getting hammered by the fans a ton and so was TC, Ben, Reese, players and coaches but Eli has always been given a pass. Why do other teams function without a great or even good offensive line? We cannot expect to have a great oline all the time...We expect that a qb paid to make others better would rise above it...Once that is not possible is time to evaluate but no we fire a GM who was here for 2 rings and drafted some of the most popular players we had or have at the moment who get great reviews around the league.
If we had only an average OL that would have been massive improvement. The reality is we began the year with an OL that was probably in the bottom quarter of the league and our GM thought it was OK to go with a 7th round draft pick, who was touted as a better Guard than Tackle, as your starting RT and a journeyman RG. Its borderline criminal negligence.
He was not screwed. He was held accountable.
Britt and Eric make very valid points here.
He wasn't screwed, he was fired for poor performance. Good man, good scout, did a lot of good things, just not enough good things.
You have your opinions and I have mine....This is a Giants forum...Not a only post what we agree with or nothing else...
I feel like Reese was getting hammered by the fans a ton and so was TC, Ben, Reese, players and coaches but Eli has always been given a pass. Why do other teams function without a great or even good offensive line? We cannot expect to have a great oline all the time...We expect that a qb paid to make others better would rise above it...Once that is not possible is time to evaluate but no we fire a GM who was here for 2 rings and drafted some of the most popular players we had or have at the moment who get great reviews around the league.
It's no one's fault but your own that you are seemingly ungrateful about that.
After 2011, for many reasons stated above, failed attempts or no attempts at all by Jerry Reese, the offensive line continued to deteriorate.
In the year's since, Eli's had his moments, including last season in Green Bay where he was the best offensive player on the football field for us.
But if you can't see why at almost 37 years old, with no mobility to begin with, the QB would not be blamed for the overall offensive failure when the offensive line in front of him stinks, that's on you.
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and do not jump down the throats of Reese....Fantastic...
You have your opinions and I have mine....This is a Giants forum...Not a only post what we agree with or nothing else...
I feel like Reese was getting hammered by the fans a ton and so was TC, Ben, Reese, players and coaches but Eli has always been given a pass. Why do other teams function without a great or even good offensive line? We cannot expect to have a great oline all the time...We expect that a qb paid to make others better would rise above it...Once that is not possible is time to evaluate but no we fire a GM who was here for 2 rings and drafted some of the most popular players we had or have at the moment who get great reviews around the league.
If we had only an average OL that would have been massive improvement. The reality is we began the year with an OL that was probably in the bottom quarter of the league and our GM thought it was OK to go with a 7th round draft pick, who was touted as a better Guard than Tackle, as your starting RT and a journeyman RG. Its borderline criminal negligence.
I don't believe it was intentional, but it borders on sabotage....
I mean, if you connect the dots on McAdoo and Reese's comments going back to years, and further....
They knew the O-line was a problem, but kept heaping the blame at Manning's feet, and suggesting that he needed to make the best out of it.
"skittish", "having to play in a dirty pocket", etc....
They effing knew, but they did nothing about it. If I believed in conspiracy theories, I'd argue they were doing it to force Manning out.
When it came to a head last week, we see how it went.
Britt and Eric make very valid points here.
And that's really the whole thing.
At Tom Coughlin's "retirement" press conference, Mara said directly "Jerry knows this is on him."
Well, here we are.
It's no one's fault but your own that you are seemingly ungrateful about that.
After 2011, for many reasons stated above, failed attempts or no attempts at all by Jerry Reese, the offensive line continued to deteriorate.
In the year's since, Eli's had his moments, including last season in Green Bay where he was the best offensive player on the football field for us.
But if you can't see why at almost 37 years old, with no mobility to begin with, the QB would not be blamed for the overall offensive failure when the offensive line in front of him stinks, that's on you.
I gave Eli his due and said he was a top 3 qb easily that year...He is the main reason we won that SB in 2011...He was fantastic with a bad oline and the 32nd ranked rushing offense in the league...A defense that in the regular season was terrible and went through a stretch of giving up the most yards and points in franchise history. We were 9-7 and would have been 3-13 if not for Eli that year. That was the last year I felt he made an impact on the outcome of a season....Does not mean I do not see that Eli at this point is no more serviciable to the team than Geno smith as evidence by Geno actually scoring 2 tds last week when Eli had gone 24 drives withiout a td. Yet people blamed it on the referee screwing the raiders or Geno getting lucky
Wouldn't Tom Coughlin's second and third chances also be Reese's second or third chance?
Couldn't you say it Coughlin got three chances, Reese got four?
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How many times did Tom get called into the principals office and get a second or third chance? Yet everyone was just flabbergasted when he was fired. Tom acted like a woman stood up on a date.
Wouldn't Tom Coughlin's second and third chances also be Reese's second or third chance?
Couldn't you say it Coughlin got three chances, Reese got four?
You're probably right. I would've been fine firing everyone then.
To me, one of JR's biggest issues as a GM (vs. being the head of scouting) was an inability to develop and implement a coherent long term plan for roster building. Over the past 10 years, the Giants have repeatedly found themselves a year or two later than should have been the case scrambling to fill GAPING holes that crushed them the year prior (or sometimes, the 2-3 years prior). We saw this scenario play out at S, CB, OL, WR, TE, and RB (and LB...though that was a hole we seemed content to just ride with).
Where I do increasingly feel that the Giants model is off is the role ownership seems to play in picking the coach. The traditional logic seems to be you hire a GM who hires the coach. I just don't get the sense that's how the Giants ownership views things. And if you think about it, that would also help explain why at least to a certain degree, there never seemed to be a full marriage between scheme/vision being implemented at the coaching level and the players picked to fit that scheme by JR and crew.
To me, one of JR's biggest issues as a GM (vs. being the head of scouting) was an inability to develop and implement a coherent long term plan for roster building. Over the past 10 years, the Giants have repeatedly found themselves a year or two later than should have been the case scrambling to fill GAPING holes that crushed them the year prior (or sometimes, the 2-3 years prior). We saw this scenario play out at S, CB, OL, WR, TE, and RB (and LB...though that was a hole we seemed content to just ride with).
Where I do increasingly feel that the Giants model is off is the role ownership seems to play in picking the coach. The traditional logic seems to be you hire a GM who hires the coach. I just don't get the sense that's how the Giants ownership views things. And if you think about it, that would also help explain why at least to a certain degree, there never seemed to be a full marriage between scheme/vision being implemented at the coaching level and the players picked to fit that scheme by JR and crew.
Absolutely one thousand percent correct.
haha
However, most on here ripping Reese also say McAdoo is in over his head and is a terrible coach.
I have a hard time believing that a crappy coach can go 11-5, and be dominating a playoff game in Green Bay for almost 2 quarters with a crappy roster.
I've read on here that McAdoo is lousy, but that Reese creating this mess. Given the 11-5 record last year, logic tells me it can't be both.
As Eric pointed out on another thread, this is a big cross road - mainly because Reese was a good scout/GM for 23 years - they could end up worse.
I still maintain that coaching is the biggest issue, along with injuries.
Not saying I don't think Reese deserves to be gone, he should be. But, as far as McAdoo goes, it has been reported that he wasn't his choice.
Reported by whom? People around here have a frequent habit of grabbing whatever rumor fits their narrative and running with it. If it gets repeated enough times, people assume it's true, regardless of the source.
I think it was time for Reese to go too, but why do people talk in extremes about this case? Its not as if Reese was an outsider who came in from another team when Ernie retired and took credit for 'his' players. Reese was Ernie's right hand man and director of scouting for Christ sakes.
He's had a mixed track record here - had a terrific 5-6 years of drafting and building a roster, followed by 6 lousy ones. Was time for a new voice - but he did an overall good job for this organization and should be thanked for his efforts. Its ok not to have an extreme view once in a while. No... really.
2008:No one
2009: No one
2010: JPP, Linval Joseph
2011: Prince Amukamara
2012: No one
2013:Pugh, and Hankins
That is 5 out of 45 picks. That is below the Mendoza line.
2008:No one
2009: No one
2010: JPP, Linval Joseph
2011: Prince Amukamara
2012: No one
2013:Pugh, and Hankins
That is 5 out of 45 picks. That is below the Mendoza line.
And as somebody else mentioned only ONE of those got a second contract with the Giants.... And that ain't looking too hot, either.
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it has been reported that Reese recommended 2 coaches over McAdoo during the final decision, and that Mara ultimately chose McAdoo.
Not saying I don't think Reese deserves to be gone, he should be. But, as far as McAdoo goes, it has been reported that he wasn't his choice.
Reported by whom? People around here have a frequent habit of grabbing whatever rumor fits their narrative and running with it. If it gets repeated enough times, people assume it's true, regardless of the source.
Its called the BBI echo chamber with preferred talking points.
I was pro-Reese until that point.
But the decision to not pursue Whitworth indicated, to me, a world of thinking behind that decision which, again in my view, was totally fucked.
This +1000...I have said this before signing Whitworth would have changed the whole dynamic of this OL/ season...
You could have moved Flowers to RT and still had Pugh and Fluker at guard...
Instead Reese went "with the young guys we really like"...
Its called keep things safe and be lazy. Let's put some caulk on that hole a swipe of paint and we are ready to make SB run because we have Eli. They got lucky with some of that with some rosters because they had some guys that made very serious plays to change outcomes (Bradshaw, Plax, Smith, etc). The current rosters are filled with guys that do not lean in, they just do their job and collect their pay.
Not saying I don't think Reese deserves to be gone, he should be. But, as far as McAdoo goes, it has been reported that he wasn't his choice.
Does anyone know who the 2 were, I'm dying to know.
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own hype. I never bought the whole SB contender, guaranteed playoff thing, but many people did, and seemingly the Giants did. It would have been okay to go with "young guys we like" had they set the expectation that they were still building. But to foster the expectation that they had SB ambitions and not do anything to improve that OL was just plain stupid.
Its called keep things safe and be lazy. Let's put some caulk on that hole a swipe of paint and we are ready to make SB run because we have Eli. They got lucky with some of that with some rosters because they had some guys that made very serious plays to change outcomes (Bradshaw, Plax, Smith, etc). The current rosters are filled with guys that do not lean in, they just do their job and collect their pay.
Yeah, in hindsight it seems like 2011 convinced them that all they had to do was patch it together enough to make the tournament and Eli would get them through.
He screwed the GIANTS by hiring Marc Ross as his draft boss, and screwed the GIANTS again by not getting rid of him when it became apparent that Ross wasn't getting the job done properly or well.
Even management recognized that and made Reese get more involved with the later rounds of the draft.
Let's draft RB's and WR's, but not have an OL to make them effective?
Who the hell needs linebackers?
Who the hell needs TE's? Hell we had not 1, not 2, but at one time we had 3 undrafted TE's.....
How many times has Reese put us in the hole at the safety position?
I think if you switch Jerry Reese and Giants in your Header, it would be more accurate....
What I think the SB years proved:
Extremely skilled skill position players and a dominant defense can overcome mediocre to poor O-line play. Especially the 2011 team.
The thing that made Eli great in 2011 was the talent around him NOT on the OL.
Nicks (in his prime), Cruz (in his prime, even as a rookie), Manningham (at his best), with Jacobs and Bradshaw still healthy enough and a healthy Ballard.
The defense became good enough in the playoffs to make it count. We didn't win the NFC championship game in SF because of a dominant OL. Only reason we won was because the dominant SF defense didn't have an answer for Cruz, Nicks, Manningham, et al, and our own defense was able to shut down the Alex Smith led 9ers, in spite of the obvious mismatch they had at TE.
Same thing is true in the SB that year. We won because when NE sold out to stop Nicks and Cruz, Manningham made the play of his lifetime, and our defense kept us in the game.
Look at the 2007 year and see the same thing. Plax and Toomer were the reasons for our NFC Championship game (and the amazing defensive performances.
We saw that our offense could be a top unit (2014/2015) in spite of having a horrific line when we had good enough weapons at WR. Beckham on his own shows how the game can be changed by a legit threat. When you combine two or three of them on offense with a smart QB and deadly defense, your OL can be the worst in the league at running the ball and you can still win the SB.
That's the philosophy Reese bought into and what he was trying to accomplish with his rebuild. He invested heavily into the defense and built something very good last year. OBJ/Cruz/Rookie SS wasn't good enough with no TE and no threat at RB. This year he upgraded the TE position, brought in what was supposed to be an improved threat at WR in Marshall, and hoped for improvement in his OL and RB's. What happened?
The demise began when Beckham went out and we went into the DAL game unprepared and unable to react to the new-look DAL defense. Eli started the season poorly, and there was no commitment early on to the running game even when it had some success (look through the game logs in the opener against DAL if you don't remember). Early poor production by Perkins was tolerated since we'd named him the starter in the offseason, in spite of better performances at RB. We've had uneven performances by the OL and at QB, combined with a ton of drops in the passing game. We do not have any threats at the skill positions left sans a legit TE, one good WR and another good TE (not pro-bowl level, but nice complementary pieces).
Combine the offensive injuries and mistakes with a defense that couldn't execute the "graduate-level" defense Spags tried to install and you have a huge step backwards.
It is not true that you have to have a dominant OL to win the game. It is true that the players you have need to be able to hold their own. The team that Reese had assembled could have won something this year had they come together with some better coaching, continued their defensive success, and had better luck with injuries (especially OBJ). It's not just a failure to build an OL. That's a simplistic view of what's wrong here.
Best example of that is DAL, who has had one of the best OL's in recent memory and won exactly 1 playoff game with it.
“In 2010, we were getting beat up—we were still winning because we were still good enough. In 2011 when we won the Super Bowl, there were multiple guys getting hurt. By 2012, we went 9-7, but we were hanging on for dear life.
“When 2013 happened, there were six different starters at running back, three different starters at right guard, four different starters at center, three at left guard. This is a build up that needed to be addressed for a while.”
The deterioration of the offensive line combined with the fact that Manning is not a mobile quarterback ultimately led to some of the problems Manning has experienced the last few years.
“As I’ve said on numerous occasions, Eli will never and never has solved problem with his feet. He can solve it with his arm, he can solve it with his brain and he can solve it with his heart. But if you’re asking this guy to solve problems with his feet, you’ve got the wrong guy because that’s not who he is.”
Reese had a lot of years to fix this and couldn't do it which has resulted in this shit you see today.
What I think the SB years proved:
Extremely skilled skill position players and a dominant defense can overcome mediocre to poor O-line play. Especially the 2011 team.
The thing that made Eli great in 2011 was the talent around him NOT on the OL.
And yet, Eli still had time to take 5 and 7 step drops and wait for guys to get open downfield in 2011.
In 2017, he's getting hit as he releases the ball in 1.9 seconds on 3 step drops.
Nicks (in his prime), Cruz (in his prime, even as a rookie), Manningham (at his best), with Jacobs and Bradshaw still healthy enough and a healthy Ballard.
The defense became good enough in the playoffs to make it count. We didn't win the NFC championship game in SF because of a dominant OL. Only reason we won was because the dominant SF defense didn't have an answer for Cruz, Nicks, Manningham, et al, and our own defense was able to shut down the Alex Smith led 9ers, in spite of the obvious mismatch they had at TE.
Same thing is true in the SB that year. We won because when NE sold out to stop Nicks and Cruz, Manningham made the play of his lifetime, and our defense kept us in the game.
Look at the 2007 year and see the same thing. Plax and Toomer were the reasons for our NFC Championship game (and the amazing defensive performances.
We saw that our offense could be a top unit (2014/2015) in spite of having a horrific line when we had good enough weapons at WR. Beckham on his own shows how the game can be changed by a legit threat. When you combine two or three of them on offense with a smart QB and deadly defense, your OL can be the worst in the league at running the ball and you can still win the SB.
That's the philosophy Reese bought into and what he was trying to accomplish with his rebuild. He invested heavily into the defense and built something very good last year. OBJ/Cruz/Rookie SS wasn't good enough with no TE and no threat at RB. This year he upgraded the TE position, brought in what was supposed to be an improved threat at WR in Marshall, and hoped for improvement in his OL and RB's. What happened?
The demise began when Beckham went out and we went into the DAL game unprepared and unable to react to the new-look DAL defense. Eli started the season poorly, and there was no commitment early on to the running game even when it had some success (look through the game logs in the opener against DAL if you don't remember). Early poor production by Perkins was tolerated since we'd named him the starter in the offseason, in spite of better performances at RB. We've had uneven performances by the OL and at QB, combined with a ton of drops in the passing game. We do not have any threats at the skill positions left sans a legit TE, one good WR and another good TE (not pro-bowl level, but nice complementary pieces).
Combine the offensive injuries and mistakes with a defense that couldn't execute the "graduate-level" defense Spags tried to install and you have a huge step backwards.
It is not true that you have to have a dominant OL to win the game. It is true that the players you have need to be able to hold their own. The team that Reese had assembled could have won something this year had they come together with some better coaching, continued their defensive success, and had better luck with injuries (especially OBJ). It's not just a failure to build an OL. That's a simplistic view of what's wrong here.
Best example of that is DAL, who has had one of the best OL's in recent memory and won exactly 1 playoff game with it.
And yet, Eli still had time to take 5 and 7 step drops and wait for guys to get open downfield in 2011.
In 2017, he's getting hit as he releases the ball in 1.9 seconds on 3 step drops.