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Flowers to RT...if we are evaluating players...

Thatís Gold, Jerry : 12/7/2017 11:10 am
now that Pugh is back, why not move Pugh to LT and take a look at Flowers at RT. See if he is more comfortable there...get a look at him where most experts seem to think he is a better fit.

Why should we just limit our look to the QB position (if a game gets out of hand), I wonder why this discussion is not taking place?

This is a good time for evaluation of other players, not just Eli or Webb? We need to know what we have in Flowers also. We know he is not a LT, so why not look at him elsewhere.
you sure Pugh is back??  
Victor in CT : 12/7/2017 11:12 am : link
It's only Thursday :-)
RE: you sure Pugh is back??  
Diver_Down : 12/7/2017 11:13 am : link
In comment 13728907 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
It's only Thursday :-)


He probably meant to type that Pugh has a back.
So true Victor, so true...  
Thatís Gold, Jerry : 12/7/2017 11:14 am : link
another guy that merits a serious discussion. I would not give him a lot of guaranteed money. Incentive laden deal or let him walk. The guy is an injury waiting to happen.
I agree  
GeorgeAdams33 : 12/7/2017 11:20 am : link
That we need to see if Pugh has improved enough to play LT. I doubt that he will be effective there, but with his play RT against Denver's Von Miller will have his agent screaming for Tackle money from a guy I don't want to re-sign. I don't think Pugh or Richburg are NFL linemen. I would let them both walk.
Hopefully the new coaches will have a clue on how to evaluate  
ZogZerg : 12/7/2017 11:23 am : link
OL play and they can figure out where to play guys.
I'd prefer they try him at Guard  
GiantsRage2007 : 12/7/2017 11:23 am : link
We see how important both T positions are. Look at the mess we have with Hart etc at RT and the destruction of the offense when RT sucks too.
RE: I agree  
Victor in CT : 12/7/2017 11:27 am : link
In comment 13728924 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
That we need to see if Pugh has improved enough to play LT. I doubt that he will be effective there, but with his play RT against Denver's Von Miller will have his agent screaming for Tackle money from a guy I don't want to re-sign. I don't think Pugh or Richburg are NFL linemen. I would let them both walk.


Agreed.
Pugh and  
ryanmkeane : 12/7/2017 11:29 am : link
Richburg aren't NFL lineman? Pugh is our best lineman. He's a near pro bowl caliber guard and good tackle. Richburg is a good to very good center, he needs a clean bill of health for a year or two and he'll be fine.
No  
SLIM_ : 12/7/2017 11:29 am : link
I don't think Flowers has taken 1 practice snap at RT since he has been here.

IF Webb gets any time, it will be very hard to evaluate him. He doesn't have much talent around him and it would most likely be in a blowout. I see the only benefit that he may experience the speed of the game which is much different than college/preseason.

As for Flowers, I think he is our LT next year. If he isn't deemed worthy of a second contract at LT, he probably doesn't get resigned. Maybe Wheeler in 2019.
RE: RE: I agree  
section125 : 12/7/2017 11:31 am : link
In comment 13728936 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13728924 GeorgeAdams33 said:


Quote:


That we need to see if Pugh has improved enough to play LT. I doubt that he will be effective there, but with his play RT against Denver's Von Miller will have his agent screaming for Tackle money from a guy I don't want to re-sign. I don't think Pugh or Richburg are NFL linemen. I would let them both walk.



Agreed.


What leads you to believe Pugh wouldn't be an effective LT?
He is probably the best player at any of the line positions except center. If he could handle Vonn Miller, he could handle anybody.
RE: Pugh and  
Victor in CT : 12/7/2017 11:35 am : link
In comment 13728941 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Richburg aren't NFL lineman? Pugh is our best lineman. He's a near pro bowl caliber guard and good tackle. Richburg is a good to very good center, he needs a clean bill of health for a year or two and he'll be fine.


This is pure hyperbole. When has Richburg been a "good to very good center"? Not siince the league got film on him and saw how weak he is. He lives at the QBs feet, blown off the line. Pugh is not a good tackle not is he a "pro bowl caliber guard". He's an average at best player who is "our best lineman" because the rest have been so poor, not because he is so great. Add in that he can't stay on the field (ditto Richburg) and you have just flushed millions on replaceable players.
RE: RE: Pugh and  
section125 : 12/7/2017 11:46 am : link
In comment 13728957 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13728941 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


Richburg aren't NFL lineman? Pugh is our best lineman. He's a near pro bowl caliber guard and good tackle. Richburg is a good to very good center, he needs a clean bill of health for a year or two and he'll be fine.



This is pure hyperbole. When has Richburg been a "good to very good center"? Not siince the league got film on him and saw how weak he is. He lives at the QBs feet, blown off the line. Pugh is not a good tackle not is he a "pro bowl caliber guard". He's an average at best player who is "our best lineman" because the rest have been so poor, not because he is so great. Add in that he can't stay on the field (ditto Richburg) and you have just flushed millions on replaceable players.


Pugh is much better than average, please stop the bullshit. You think some average guard, playing at tackle could handle Vonn Miller the way Pugh did?
I agree about his injuries, but as B in ALB pointed out, some were unfortunate - like getting rolled up on. I'm not in favor of re-signing, but if they do I'm ok with that too.
Pugh can't stay on the field  
GiantsRage2007 : 12/7/2017 11:48 am : link
What good is resigning him?
Do that with Eli  
Rory : 12/7/2017 11:50 am : link
out of the lineup

However I dont see them moving on from Flowers at LT.
Evaluating players is no longer the objective  
UberAlias : 12/7/2017 12:01 pm : link
Winning games is. This was stated by Mara and Spags.

I don't agree with it -2017 is lost, need to focus on setting things right for the future, but ownership is making a habit if stringing together poor decisions.
"Pugh is an average OL at best..."?  
est1986 : 12/7/2017 12:01 pm : link
As long as they don't hire you to evaluate players... i'm good.
No  
Elite Mobster #32 : 12/7/2017 12:05 pm : link
.
Our line need consistency  
Rjanyg : 12/7/2017 12:10 pm : link
The one thing about Flowers is he has stayed pretty healthy.
He will be a part of the line next year, and until they can bring somebody in that can unseat him at LT he will stay there. The only other candidate for LT is Wheeler and the next offseason might get him stronger to handle NFL DE's that will allow him to complete for one of the Tackle spots.

As for Pugh, it will come down to $. I think the Giants like him but for how much? He is always banged up and backs are nothing to ignore. If he wants tackle money he will be gone.

Richburg has been average. See Pugh as far as durability goes.

I would hope NYG re-signs Fluker and Jones for reasonable contracts. I would like to see an early draft pick take over LG and or C and see if there is a veteran to bring in to battle for a tackle spot.
Talk about moving Flowers makes me  
mrvax : 12/7/2017 12:24 pm : link
cringe. You have no idea if he can even play RT. This is what you do: Nothing until training camp.

Then you evaluate Wheeler & Flowers at both tackle spots.

News flash: Pugh won't be back unless his contract reflects all the games he misses each year. Good player when healthy but you cannot expect 16 games from him. Buyer beware.

Draft Billy Price for C/G.

Will Bis come in stronger in 2018?

Maybe grab a F/A G or draft another Oline guy besides Price.

Pugh is good, not great.....  
Doomster : 12/7/2017 12:27 pm : link
His main asset is that he can be used at several positions, in a pinch......

His main problem, he can't stay on the field.....he has missed 13 games in the last 4 years....

The guy got 8.8M for his option year.....he is out of his rookie contract.....he will be looking for that one big contract next year......I don't know if he is worth the risk, but he has missed time for 4 straight seasons....

If he is asking for the moon, so long....
RE: Pugh is good, not great.....  
mrvax : 12/7/2017 12:48 pm : link
In comment 13729047 Doomster said:
Quote:

If he is asking for the moon ....



You send him.
Section125  
GeorgeAdams33 : 12/7/2017 1:18 pm : link
You are a real sucker. You fell for it. So glad that you are not our GM and neither is JR because he would probably throw LT money at Pugh just like you would. Pugh and Richburg are not NFL linemen for several reasons. I know that they were good in college, but in the NFL they can't hold their ground, they can't get and push, they can't stay healthy and they both have had bad luck with concussions forcing them to miss a lot of time. Seriously, I hope that they are both no longer Giants in 2018 and that goes for JJ & Hart too. I would re-sign Jones & Fluker and let the coaches figure out where to put everyone based on who we draft and sign for the OL.
RE: Section125  
section125 : 12/7/2017 1:29 pm : link
In comment 13729137 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
You are a real sucker. You fell for it. So glad that you are not our GM and neither is JR because he would probably throw LT money at Pugh just like you would. Pugh and Richburg are not NFL linemen for several reasons. I know that they were good in college, but in the NFL they can't hold their ground, they can't get and push, they can't stay healthy and they both have had bad luck with concussions forcing them to miss a lot of time. Seriously, I hope that they are both no longer Giants in 2018 and that goes for JJ & Hart too. I would re-sign Jones & Fluker and let the coaches figure out where to put everyone based on who we draft and sign for the OL.


Took about being wrong. DJ Fluker can block people directly in front of him and cannot move. Jones is doing a decent job, but gets shoved backwards almost a badly as Richburg. Try reading Sy'56's write-ups.

Now, show me where I said Pugh should be the LT. I said he was the best lineman at every position except center. Prove to me I'm wrong. You can't, because Pugh is the best lineman on the team and not only that would be the best lineman at every position.

I also said I was against re-signing him because of the missed games.

So I did not fall for anything.
This is how I would attempt to fix the offensive line  
Jay on the Island : 12/7/2017 1:47 pm : link
I would let Pugh walk as he is going to be way too costly due to the lack of options in free agency. I would offer Richburg a 1 year prove it deal with a base salary of 2 million plus incentives that could push the deal to 7-8 million. Richburg played very well during his second year in the league and maybe in a new scheme and with a different OL coach he could become a starting caliber player again. I would let him and Jones battle for the C job.
I would draft a QB in round 1 but then draft Billy Price with the 2nd pick trading up into the end of round 1 if necessary. Price would start at LG and be a safety net if Jones and Richburg falter at C. In the 3rd round I draft LT Desmond Harrison to compete with Wheeler for the LT job. I would re-sign Fluker to a 2 year 5 million dollar deal and let him compete for the RG spot.
Yes, he does  
GeorgeAdams33 : 12/7/2017 1:49 pm : link
Pugh is our best lineman.

Kinda like being the skinniest kid at the fat farm
Whereas right at the moment  
idiotsavant : 12/7/2017 1:51 pm : link
The path forward on the line is not that clear, and will depend on new GM/HC/OC combination;

- if you go back two years, the idea of 'keeping Pugh at guard to not pay him tackle money' may well have led to a series of other mistakes (not drafting or free agent hiring good guards, putting the team in flowers hands before he was ready) and now seems very small minded and cheap.

Not 20/20 hindsight.
I want Nelson  
GeorgeAdams33 : 12/7/2017 1:51 pm : link
and Price
The guys saying Pugh is near Pro Bowl caliber  
WillieYoung : 12/7/2017 2:31 pm : link
should remind us of those vicious pancake blocks he made or those electrifying runs our backs were able to get off of his lead blocks. PFF had him rated highly last year. That's his only claim to fame as a guard.
Pugh is a very solid guard  
Jay on the Island : 12/7/2017 2:35 pm : link
His main value is his versatility. He can play RT and LT at serviceably. He isn't a pro bowl talent at G but he will be paid handsomely due to the lack of options on the FA market. I expect him to get Zeitler money.
RE: I want Nelson  
Rjanyg : 12/7/2017 2:58 pm : link
In comment 13729178 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
and Price


This. However, that would mean passing on a QB in round 1 with a trade down about 3-5 spots. I will say that Nelson is probably the safest player in this draft and will be an ALL PRO IMO.
RE: RE: I want Nelson  
Jay on the Island : 12/7/2017 3:05 pm : link
In comment 13729258 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
In comment 13729178 GeorgeAdams33 said:


Quote:


and Price



This. However, that would mean passing on a QB in round 1 with a trade down about 3-5 spots. I will say that Nelson is probably the safest player in this draft and will be an ALL PRO IMO.

I will never call an offensive linemen safe again after Robert Gallery.
RE: I want Nelson  
Jay on the Island : 12/7/2017 3:05 pm : link
In comment 13729178 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
and Price

We all do but I want a new franchise QB more with Price as our 2nd pick.
RE: RE: RE: I want Nelson  
Elisthebest : 12/7/2017 4:13 pm : link
In comment 13729269 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 13729258 Rjanyg said:


Quote:


In comment 13729178 GeorgeAdams33 said:


Quote:


and Price



This. However, that would mean passing on a QB in round 1 with a trade down about 3-5 spots. I will say that Nelson is probably the safest player in this draft and will be an ALL PRO IMO.


I will never call an offensive linemen safe again after Robert Gallery.

To my unending shame I really wanted them to pick him. Imagine what the last 14 vears would have been like
RE: Pugh and  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 12/7/2017 4:22 pm : link
In comment 13728941 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Richburg aren't NFL lineman? Pugh is our best lineman. He's a near pro bowl caliber guard and good tackle. Richburg is a good to very good center, he needs a clean bill of health for a year or two and he'll be fine.



Holy shit, pro bowl calibur? :D Take the big blue goggles off. The guy is average at best.
Giants fans have been watching  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 12/7/2017 4:24 pm : link
poor OL play for do long that they see"barely adequate" as "pro bowl calibur".
so right on both LGG  
Victor in CT : 12/7/2017 4:26 pm : link
......
Flowers needs to move to guard  
Since1965 : 12/7/2017 7:39 pm : link
He has good power, but still gets beat by quickness. Keep him inside.
RE: Flowers needs to move to guard  
WillVAB : 12/7/2017 10:39 pm : link
In comment 13729565 Since1965 said:
Quote:
He has good power, but still gets beat by quickness. Keep him inside.


Yep and he struggles in space. They need to get a look at him in the interior at some point.
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