I know I'm in the minority here but Jerry Reese knows talent and I hope I'm wrong but I think there's a good chance things will get worse without Reese and not better
Reese as to rely on his scouting department to search for the hidden gems that really make a team standout and that's where the Giants have struggled. The things that Reese seemed to have more direct involvement in like early round draft picks have been consistently well above average.
People have this unrealistic expectation that players should be contributing X while league wide they contribute Y.
50% of all first round picks are straight busts. Not starting three years into their first contract. And 40% of second rounders are the same. It goes down each round after that. I think the Giants high draft picks are very well represented and maybe they aren't all with the Giants for varying reasons But there aren't many real big misses early. Marc Ross is more responsible for the actual player selection in the draft as the rounds progresss. He has al the info. He has the scouts to train and communicate with and it's his information that influences Reese pick. He can't look at all the players in depth. That's Ross' only job. Resse biggest failure was not firing Ross.
We should expect a drop off there even if it trends back to average. Pick any team in the league you want and look at their first round picks since 2007 the Giants are consistently better.
Secondly the Giants offensive line is not good but it's not historically bad, in fact there are many metrics I can point to that show the Giants offensive line the last four years has been on the lower side of average. OL play in the league is terrible. Absolutely terrible. The Giants have the skill position players to overcompensate for that, but not the coaching and honestly not the QB play.
Russell Wilson has a worse OL and worse position players as do many teams. Eli is a fine QB now But he is no longer covering the teams weaknesses and that's what separates Elite QBs from competent quarterbacks. The Giants will have to correct that going forward.
I wasn't sad to see Mcadoo go but I wish Reese all the best and just thought I'd share my thoughts on Reese who I greatly appreciate and will miss.
It may get worse and likely will. and that's not something I Think most realize.
Since 2007 Giants won 2 Superbowls there are at least 20 other general managers who didn't even get close. That should be our expected outcome and that saddens me.
This needed to be done. Reese wasn't an awful GM, but he has been unable to put a good set of linebackers on the field for about a decade now - the OL still stinks. The Giants have failed to be competitive 4 of the last 5 seasons. At some point, the blame has to fall on the guy responsible for constructing the rosters.
He had a great eye for talent at certain positions and I still believe he is a good scout in some regards but the Giants needed to stop taking half-measures here. Replacing coordinators but keeping the coach, then replacing the coach but keeping the GM.
A total re-set was needed here and now was the time to do it.
I appreciate everything Jerry Reese contributed to help us win the two Super Bowls we won - but it was time to move on and Mara made the right call on this.
2008:No one
2009: No one
2010: JPP, Linval Joseph
2011: Prince Amukamara
2012: No one
2013:Pugh, and Hankins
That is 5 out of 45 picks. That is below the Mendoza line.
this was my thought. but is that ever done?
I don't know what the Mendoza Line is, but I think it translates to suckitude.
That's not just below the Mendoza line, it's lower than whale shit.
Ross works for Reese. If Jerry did not like Marc's player evaluation, then Jerry should have replaced him years ago. Plus, Marc Ross does not decide which player on the board to take when our number is up on draft day.
You know better than that.
Presumably a new GM would want a DIFFERENT eye for talent doing that, because now that the Accorsi tree is broken (except for Ross) the whole drafting philosophy -- they way they value the various positions -- may well change with a new GM and regime.
Coughlin had much more to do with winning the Super Bowls than Reese did, yet he was fired.
More importantly, as previously noted, there is a lot more to being a great GM than drafting.
Drafting is a significant component, but, more importantly the GM is the leader . He establishes the philosophy and builds a team in his image.
Reese's weakness was that he did not have a clear image for the team.
He hired a West Coast Coach with an East Coast team.
It was a square peg in a round hole.
2) This offense is not a function of bad QB play. I don't see a drop-off in Eli's play. I do see a fundamentally bad and dysfunctional scheme, including poor personnel decisions, poor playcalling, insistence on the same personnel package and formations almost exclusively, and predictability. Then, the next factor on the field is the OL.
3) To build on #2, this OL hasn't gotten significantly worse over the last couple of years. It just hasn't gotten any better. People said Eli isn't suited for the WCO. But, we installed a WCO in 2014 and for two seasons Eli was among the best in the league. Once McAdoo was named HC, the offense changed. It's still a WCO, but this version is different and broken.
Accorsi tree? This is still the George Young tree which Ernie was a part of.
2008:No one
2009: No one
2010: JPP, Linval Joseph
2011: Prince Amukamara
2012: No one
2013:Pugh, and Hankins
That is 5 out of 45 picks. That is below the Mendoza line.
You're right but just a FYI Will Beatty is with the Eagles ..just signed a few weeks ago. Also Nicks was a stud no one can dispute that. Terrell Thomas, Kenny Phillips were both studs as well..GM can't do anything about injuries or a car crash ending someone's career before it even starts.
Because it simply isn't true...
are all young and could STILL be in NFL if it wasn't for career ending injuries
having studs like these go down to injury changes your needs in draft and free agency
Reese was always behind the 8 ball because Giants were consistently the most injured team in NFL for multiple years - and many of those injured ended had to leave the game prematurely .
horrible Strength and Conditioning Coaches were probably the reason ..
Not good things for GM.
That's not just below the Mendoza line, it's lower than whale shit.
Again expectations. What relevance does how many guys drafts in 2008 through 2010 have on Reese's ability to draft. Average nfl player career is three years. How many guys drafted in 2007-2009 are in the league?
I'm going to venture not many.
Ross was a starter in the league many years. Phillips was a good player. Nicks had a few very good years. JPP is a pro bowl caliber player. Price anukamara is still starting. David Wilson had a major injury issue. Beckham Jr is an All pro. Pugh still starting. Flowers apple and engram are all starters.
Show me the lengthy list each team has if players drafted from 2008 still playing prominent roles. It's a pointless stat. It means nothing. That is an unrealistic expectation.
Two super bowl wins. Let's gloss over that.
Bad luck with injuries to Nicks, Phillips, Cruz, Thomas, and Wilson for sure. However, it is also possible that there is something that is missing in the evaluative process that has caused the Giants to select players who get injured more often.
FWIW I liked Reese, but never cared much for McAdoo or really ANY of our coaching staff.
They get two premium picks a year and there are a number of premium positions (QB, RB, WR, TE, OL, DE, DT, LB, CB, S).
I mean you have to pick and choose.
2008:No one
2009: No one
2010: JPP, Linval Joseph
2011: Prince Amukamara
2012: No one
2013:Pugh, and Hankins
That is 5 out of 45 picks. That is below the Mendoza line.
No pick 10 other teams and see how many players are still in the league and how many play for that same team from 2007 to 2013. I bet the average is around 4-7.
Coughlin had much more to do with winning the Super Bowls than Reese did, yet he was fired.
More importantly, as previously noted, there is a lot more to being a great GM than drafting.
Drafting is a significant component, but, more importantly the GM is the leader . He establishes the philosophy and builds a team in his image.
Reese's weakness was that he did not have a clear image for the team.
He hired a West Coast Coach with an East Coast team.
It was a square peg in a round hole.
Debate on who pushed the head coach.
Reese won 2 Super Bowls and had a roster last year with 6 1sr or second team all pros.
Show me all the rosters in the league with that kind of comparable talent...
Ross works for Reese. If Jerry did not like Marc's player evaluation, then Jerry should have replaced him years ago. Plus, Marc Ross does not decide which player on the board to take when our number is up on draft day.
Agree. My point is that Reese's record especially with TNT picks that matter (1sr and 2nd round picks) is better then league average and even if the next GM comes in and has average drafts it will likely be a step down from what Reese has brought to the Giants.
Look at other teams drafts heck look at bekichick and the ravens the two GM with the best reputation and see how "good" their premium draft picks have been
Because it simply isn't true...
Ok. Good counter point. Changed my mind with the wealth of information you provided to support your opinion.
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol
Here's just one resource for you.
Not for anything, but he did spend two firsts and two seconds on OL. That's not exactly devaluing the position group. He may have chosen the wrong guys, but it wasn't that he devalued the position group in general.
OL sucked.
Actually clubbing the picks is a worse indictment than if he flat out ignored
It. When the GM blows repeated picks it does not say much for his acumen.
And when the GM plunks 200+ millions on free agents and goes 2-10, the GM walks the plank.
Reese's first round track record is as good if by better then every other general manager in the league. MOST picks don't contribute anything to their team league wide the Giants got more out of their first round picks then most teams do.
I think there will be a drop off in the talent acquisition especially in the draft.
Yes it was 6 years ago but LAST Year the Giants had 6 players who were first or second All pro players.
The talent is not the biggest Problem. I believe it's time coaching, the injuries, an an expensive aging QB who no longer makes the team better.
OL sucked.
Actually clubbing the picks is a worse indictment than if he flat out ignored
It. When the GM blows repeated picks it does not say much for his acumen.
Agreed and spending 200 million on one side of the ball just highlights how poor his drafting has been and left this team unable to fix the putrid O-line. The attempt to fix with bargain basement cast-offs (Fluker) was laughable. his draft in 2007 was great but I think he tried too hard to show he was smarter than the rest of the league instead of drafting the BPA. The Eli Apple pick was a joke when Tunsil was available.
And when the GM plunks 200+ millions on free agents and goes 2-10, the GM walks the plank.
Quote:
Or chose the wrong guys the results are the same- the
OL sucked.
Actually clubbing the picks is a worse indictment than if he flat out ignored
It. When the GM blows repeated picks it does not say much for his acumen.
Agreed and spending 200 million on one side of the ball just highlights how poor his drafting has been and left this team unable to fix the putrid O-line. The attempt to fix with bargain basement cast-offs (Fluker) was laughable. his draft in 2007 was great but I think he tried too hard to show he was smarter than the rest of the league instead of drafting the BPA. The Eli Apple pick was a joke when Tunsil was available.
And when the GM plunks 200+ millions on free agents and goes 2-10, the GM walks the plank.
Great use of the quote feature.