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Giants should have let go Ross and Mcadoo and kept Reese

Jesse B : 12/7/2017 12:44 pm
I know I'm in the minority here but Jerry Reese knows talent and I hope I'm wrong but I think there's a good chance things will get worse without Reese and not better

Reese as to rely on his scouting department to search for the hidden gems that really make a team standout and that's where the Giants have struggled. The things that Reese seemed to have more direct involvement in like early round draft picks have been consistently well above average.

People have this unrealistic expectation that players should be contributing X while league wide they contribute Y.

50% of all first round picks are straight busts. Not starting three years into their first contract. And 40% of second rounders are the same. It goes down each round after that. I think the Giants high draft picks are very well represented and maybe they aren't all with the Giants for varying reasons But there aren't many real big misses early. Marc Ross is more responsible for the actual player selection in the draft as the rounds progresss. He has al the info. He has the scouts to train and communicate with and it's his information that influences Reese pick. He can't look at all the players in depth. That's Ross' only job. Resse biggest failure was not firing Ross.

We should expect a drop off there even if it trends back to average. Pick any team in the league you want and look at their first round picks since 2007 the Giants are consistently better.


Secondly the Giants offensive line is not good but it's not historically bad, in fact there are many metrics I can point to that show the Giants offensive line the last four years has been on the lower side of average. OL play in the league is terrible. Absolutely terrible. The Giants have the skill position players to overcompensate for that, but not the coaching and honestly not the QB play.

Russell Wilson has a worse OL and worse position players as do many teams. Eli is a fine QB now But he is no longer covering the teams weaknesses and that's what separates Elite QBs from competent quarterbacks. The Giants will have to correct that going forward.

I wasn't sad to see Mcadoo go but I wish Reese all the best and just thought I'd share my thoughts on Reese who I greatly appreciate and will miss.

It may get worse and likely will. and that's not something I Think most realize.

Since 2007 Giants won 2 Superbowls there are at least 20 other general managers who didn't even get close. That should be our expected outcome and that saddens me.
shouldve  
spike : 12/7/2017 12:46 pm : link
demoted Reese back to Ross' position
.  
arcarsenal : 12/7/2017 12:48 pm : link
No, no, no.

This needed to be done. Reese wasn't an awful GM, but he has been unable to put a good set of linebackers on the field for about a decade now - the OL still stinks. The Giants have failed to be competitive 4 of the last 5 seasons. At some point, the blame has to fall on the guy responsible for constructing the rosters.

He had a great eye for talent at certain positions and I still believe he is a good scout in some regards but the Giants needed to stop taking half-measures here. Replacing coordinators but keeping the coach, then replacing the coach but keeping the GM.

A total re-set was needed here and now was the time to do it.

I appreciate everything Jerry Reese contributed to help us win the two Super Bowls we won - but it was time to move on and Mara made the right call on this.
Reese has very few picks  
Reb8thVA : 12/7/2017 12:50 pm : link
from 2008-2013 drafts that are even still in the league

2008:No one
2009: No one
2010: JPP, Linval Joseph
2011: Prince Amukamara
2012: No one
2013:Pugh, and Hankins

That is 5 out of 45 picks. That is below the Mendoza line.
RE: shouldve  
Rocky369 : 12/7/2017 12:52 pm : link
In comment 13729086 spike said:
Quote:
demoted Reese back to Ross' position


this was my thought. but is that ever done?
thank you, Reb,  
ColHowPepper : 12/7/2017 12:55 pm : link
for some reality infusion of the guy who gutted the second half of Eli's career.

I don't know what the Mendoza Line is, but I think it translates to suckitude.
.  
arcarsenal : 12/7/2017 12:56 pm : link
Someone will likely offer Reese a position better than what Ross is doing now anyway.
Reese will probably get another job  
Reb8thVA : 12/7/2017 1:15 pm : link
and it will be interesting if we will be able to discern whether he learned any lessons from his experience or whether he adapts some of his philosophies.
I would agree if it was purely based on  
Beer Man : 12/7/2017 1:16 pm : link
player valuations. But Reese's draft philosophy also got him into trouble. There is nothing wrong with always drafting the highest rated player on your draft board, unless you devalue specific positions to the point that players in those positions rarely rise to the top of the draft board. The positions that have killed this team are the positions that Jerry thought he could adequately fill with late round picks, UFA and retreads (i.e., OL, LB, TE, RB, Safety), and was only will to spend premium draft picks on when the positions were in complete disrepair.
And only 2 of those 5 picks that are still in the league  
Red Dog : 12/7/2017 1:19 pm : link
are with the GIANTS.

That's not just below the Mendoza line, it's lower than whale shit.
Jesse...I am going to keep this respectful  
EricJ : 12/7/2017 1:26 pm : link
you are fucking crazy !

Ross works for Reese. If Jerry did not like Marc's player evaluation, then Jerry should have replaced him years ago. Plus, Marc Ross does not decide which player on the board to take when our number is up on draft day.
I don't know if it's more important for . . . .  
TC : 12/7/2017 1:26 pm : link
the GM to find "hidden gems" than it is to put the square peg in the square hole, and knowing which is which. I think depending upon finding "hidden gems" and believing that you're somehow smarter than the rest of the league is sort of how we got here.
Hey  
idiotsavant : 12/7/2017 1:27 pm : link
Don't talk like that about whale shit Reddog.

You know better than that.
I think Ross needed to go with them  
David B. : 12/7/2017 1:36 pm : link
You keep the scouts till the draft (and then re-evaluate their track records), but I don't know why the Giants -- much less a new GM would let Ross slot the draft board. Draft misses are a large part of the reason they've cleaned house. And IMO, Ross is more directly responsible for that than Reese.

Presumably a new GM would want a DIFFERENT eye for talent doing that, because now that the Accorsi tree is broken (except for Ross) the whole drafting philosophy -- they way they value the various positions -- may well change with a new GM and regime.
No, everyone had to go  
dpinzow : 12/7/2017 1:45 pm : link
Ross and McAdoo unquestionably. Reese belongs in the Ring of Honor in the future for building 2 super bowl winners but the last few years have been way below par and it was time
ross  
japanhead : 12/7/2017 1:46 pm : link
was brought on later, after accorsi retired. he's not part of the accorsi tree. and i agree he should be out on his ass, there is no reason to keep him on at all. i almost agree with the sentiment of the OP that ross was a bigger problem than reese. that said it is on reese for letting him hang around for this long.
Ericj has it right.  
redwhiteandbigblue : 12/7/2017 1:56 pm : link
You have to be kidding me that you think Reese should have been retained and Ross fired. He is the GM and signs off on Ross' decisions. If a poor decision is made by Ross it's on Reese and Reese should have fired Ross himself if he constantly disagreed with Ross' decisions.
JR wasn't surprised he was let go  
ATL_Giants : 12/7/2017 2:17 pm : link
He knew he hadn't done well and he'd be on the hot seat. This isn't breaking news.
Reese deserved to go.  
Archer : 12/7/2017 2:18 pm : link
Reese should have gone with Coughlin.

Coughlin had much more to do with winning the Super Bowls than Reese did, yet he was fired.

More importantly, as previously noted, there is a lot more to being a great GM than drafting.

Drafting is a significant component, but, more importantly the GM is the leader . He establishes the philosophy and builds a team in his image.
Reese's weakness was that he did not have a clear image for the team.

He hired a West Coast Coach with an East Coast team.
It was a square peg in a round hole.


Reese didn't hire the coach  
arniefez : 12/7/2017 2:23 pm : link
The Mara's hired Coughlin, they hired McAdoo and John & Chris will hire the new GM and then they'll hire the new coach too. Maybe not in that order. GM of the Giants is a very limited authority position.
A few thoughts  
Matt M. : 12/7/2017 2:31 pm : link
1) It is not only the draft that is an issue. It is FA decisions (both signings and guys we passed on). It is basic personnel decisions like which positions to virtually ignore in the draft and only look to FA and vice versa.

2) This offense is not a function of bad QB play. I don't see a drop-off in Eli's play. I do see a fundamentally bad and dysfunctional scheme, including poor personnel decisions, poor playcalling, insistence on the same personnel package and formations almost exclusively, and predictability. Then, the next factor on the field is the OL.

3) To build on #2, this OL hasn't gotten significantly worse over the last couple of years. It just hasn't gotten any better. People said Eli isn't suited for the WCO. But, we installed a WCO in 2014 and for two seasons Eli was among the best in the league. Once McAdoo was named HC, the offense changed. It's still a WCO, but this version is different and broken.
They need  
NYBEN1963 : 12/7/2017 3:16 pm : link
a complete house cleaning ...everyone should go at this point and do not hire from within or anyone who has previously worked in the front office. All of them are disciples of George Young and will continue with what has been the norm with the organization. It is time for a fresh start from top to bottom in the front office. This team has a lot of talent despite what the record is.With some "out of the box" off season moves this team can be a contender in 2018.
RE: ross  
NYBEN1963 : 12/7/2017 3:19 pm : link
In comment 13729171 japanhead said:
Quote:
was brought on later, after accorsi retired. he's not part of the accorsi tree. and i agree he should be out on his ass, there is no reason to keep him on at all. i almost agree with the sentiment of the OP that ross was a bigger problem than reese. that said it is on reese for letting him hang around for this long.


Accorsi tree? This is still the George Young tree which Ernie was a part of.
RE: Reese has very few picks  
NYBEN1963 : 12/7/2017 3:22 pm : link
In comment 13729094 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
from 2008-2013 drafts that are even still in the league

2008:No one
2009: No one
2010: JPP, Linval Joseph
2011: Prince Amukamara
2012: No one
2013:Pugh, and Hankins

That is 5 out of 45 picks. That is below the Mendoza line.


You're right but just a FYI Will Beatty is with the Eagles ..just signed a few weeks ago. Also Nicks was a stud no one can dispute that. Terrell Thomas, Kenny Phillips were both studs as well..GM can't do anything about injuries or a car crash ending someone's career before it even starts.
I agree with the OP.  
Section331 : 12/7/2017 3:26 pm : link
He is in the minority.
I have no idea how this false narrative  
JCin332 : 12/7/2017 3:38 pm : link
that Seattle's OL is worse than the Giants came to fruition...

Because it simply isn't true...
yep  
giantfan2000 : 12/7/2017 4:02 pm : link
Nicks . Terrell Thomas, Kenny Phillips, Cruz
are all young and could STILL be in NFL if it wasn't for career ending injuries

having studs like these go down to injury changes your needs in draft and free agency

Reese was always behind the 8 ball because Giants were consistently the most injured team in NFL for multiple years - and many of those injured ended had to leave the game prematurely .

horrible Strength and Conditioning Coaches were probably the reason ..

It's an irony that Accorsi is consulting on Reese's replacement,  
Ira : 12/7/2017 4:32 pm : link
since he pushed for Reese to be his successor way back when.
I think Reese was very good at judging individual talent  
Sarcastic Sam : 12/7/2017 4:56 pm : link
but not so good at self-scouting the Giants. He consistently overvalued the talent that he acquired. He said things like, "our defense will surprise" and backed it up with one of the worst defenses seen in recent history. He said things like, "don't count the Giants out," and look where we are.

Not good things for GM.
RE: And only 2 of those 5 picks that are still in the league  
Jesse B : 12/7/2017 5:13 pm : link
In comment 13729139 Red Dog said:
Quote:
are with the GIANTS.

That's not just below the Mendoza line, it's lower than whale shit.


Again expectations. What relevance does how many guys drafts in 2008 through 2010 have on Reese's ability to draft. Average nfl player career is three years. How many guys drafted in 2007-2009 are in the league?


I'm going to venture not many.

Ross was a starter in the league many years. Phillips was a good player. Nicks had a few very good years. JPP is a pro bowl caliber player. Price anukamara is still starting. David Wilson had a major injury issue. Beckham Jr is an All pro. Pugh still starting. Flowers apple and engram are all starters.


Show me the lengthy list each team has if players drafted from 2008 still playing prominent roles. It's a pointless stat. It means nothing. That is an unrealistic expectation.
RE: Ericj has it right.  
Jesse B : 12/7/2017 5:16 pm : link
In comment 13729182 redwhiteandbigblue said:
Quote:
You have to be kidding me that you think Reese should have been retained and Ross fired. He is the GM and signs off on Ross' decisions. If a poor decision is made by Ross it's on Reese and Reese should have fired Ross himself if he constantly disagreed with Ross' decisions.


Two super bowl wins. Let's gloss over that.
Valid points on the older drafts  
Reale01 : 12/7/2017 5:24 pm : link
The recent drafts have been better.

Bad luck with injuries to Nicks, Phillips, Cruz, Thomas, and Wilson for sure. However, it is also possible that there is something that is missing in the evaluative process that has caused the Giants to select players who get injured more often.

FWIW I liked Reese, but never cared much for McAdoo or really ANY of our coaching staff.
RE: I would agree if it was purely based on  
Jesse B : 12/7/2017 5:25 pm : link
In comment 13729134 Beer Man said:
Quote:
player valuations. But Reese's draft philosophy also got him into trouble. There is nothing wrong with always drafting the highest rated player on your draft board, unless you devalue specific positions to the point that players in those positions rarely rise to the top of the draft board. The positions that have killed this team are the positions that Jerry thought he could adequately fill with late round picks, UFA and retreads (i.e., OL, LB, TE, RB, Safety), and was only will to spend premium draft picks on when the positions were in complete disrepair.


They get two premium picks a year and there are a number of premium positions (QB, RB, WR, TE, OL, DE, DT, LB, CB, S).

I mean you have to pick and choose.
RE: Reese has very few picks  
Jesse B : 12/7/2017 5:26 pm : link
In comment 13729094 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
from 2008-2013 drafts that are even still in the league

2008:No one
2009: No one
2010: JPP, Linval Joseph
2011: Prince Amukamara
2012: No one
2013:Pugh, and Hankins

That is 5 out of 45 picks. That is below the Mendoza line.


No pick 10 other teams and see how many players are still in the league and how many play for that same team from 2007 to 2013. I bet the average is around 4-7.
RE: Reese deserved to go.  
Jesse B : 12/7/2017 5:28 pm : link
In comment 13729212 Archer said:
Quote:
Reese should have gone with Coughlin.

Coughlin had much more to do with winning the Super Bowls than Reese did, yet he was fired.

More importantly, as previously noted, there is a lot more to being a great GM than drafting.

Drafting is a significant component, but, more importantly the GM is the leader . He establishes the philosophy and builds a team in his image.
Reese's weakness was that he did not have a clear image for the team.

He hired a West Coast Coach with an East Coast team.
It was a square peg in a round hole.



Debate on who pushed the head coach.

Reese won 2 Super Bowls and had a roster last year with 6 1sr or second team all pros.

Show me all the rosters in the league with that kind of comparable talent...
RE: Jesse...I am going to keep this respectful  
Jesse B : 12/7/2017 5:30 pm : link
In comment 13729151 EricJ said:
Quote:
you are fucking crazy !

Ross works for Reese. If Jerry did not like Marc's player evaluation, then Jerry should have replaced him years ago. Plus, Marc Ross does not decide which player on the board to take when our number is up on draft day.


Agree. My point is that Reese's record especially with TNT picks that matter (1sr and 2nd round picks) is better then league average and even if the next GM comes in and has average drafts it will likely be a step down from what Reese has brought to the Giants.


Look at other teams drafts heck look at bekichick and the ravens the two GM with the best reputation and see how "good" their premium draft picks have been
RE: I have no idea how this false narrative  
Jesse B : 12/7/2017 5:35 pm : link
In comment 13729331 JCin332 said:
Quote:
that Seattle's OL is worse than the Giants came to fruition...

Because it simply isn't true...


Ok. Good counter point. Changed my mind with the wealth of information you provided to support your opinion.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol


Here's just one resource for you.
RE: I would agree if it was purely based on  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/7/2017 5:42 pm : link
In comment 13729134 Beer Man said:
Quote:
player valuations. But Reese's draft philosophy also got him into trouble. There is nothing wrong with always drafting the highest rated player on your draft board, unless you devalue specific positions to the point that players in those positions rarely rise to the top of the draft board. The positions that have killed this team are the positions that Jerry thought he could adequately fill with late round picks, UFA and retreads (i.e., OL, LB, TE, RB, Safety), and was only will to spend premium draft picks on when the positions were in complete disrepair.

Not for anything, but he did spend two firsts and two seconds on OL. That's not exactly devaluing the position group. He may have chosen the wrong guys, but it wasn't that he devalued the position group in general.
Whether he devalued the OL  
HomerJones45 : 12/7/2017 6:40 pm : link
Or chose the wrong guys the results are the same- the
OL sucked.

Actually clubbing the picks is a worse indictment than if he flat out ignored
It. When the GM blows repeated picks it does not say much for his acumen.

And when the GM plunks 200+ millions on free agents and goes 2-10, the GM walks the plank.
Jesse, not glossing over shit.  
redwhiteandbigblue : 12/7/2017 8:15 pm : link
How long will you hang on to the super bowl argument. Last time I checked it has been 6 years. Oh and Reese won those Super Bowls. Let's remember it was Accorsi who pushed to sign Eli . Give me a break. Reese did some good but let's face it, he is decent in FA but sucks with his draft picks (overall-sure their are exceptions to every rule). So you liked the pick for Eli Apple? Prince Amakumura? Eric Flowers? Bye Jerry.
RE: Jesse, not glossing over shit.  
Jesse B : 12/7/2017 10:43 pm : link
In comment 13729578 redwhiteandbigblue said:
Quote:
How long will you hang on to the super bowl argument. Last time I checked it has been 6 years. Oh and Reese won those Super Bowls. Let's remember it was Accorsi who pushed to sign Eli . Give me a break. Reese did some good but let's face it, he is decent in FA but sucks with his draft picks (overall-sure their are exceptions to every rule). So you liked the pick for Eli Apple? Prince Amakumura? Eric Flowers? Bye Jerry.



Reese's first round track record is as good if by better then every other general manager in the league. MOST picks don't contribute anything to their team league wide the Giants got more out of their first round picks then most teams do.

I think there will be a drop off in the talent acquisition especially in the draft.

Yes it was 6 years ago but LAST Year the Giants had 6 players who were first or second All pro players.

The talent is not the biggest Problem. I believe it's time coaching, the injuries, an an expensive aging QB who no longer makes the team better.
RE: Whether he devalued the OL  
gmenatlarge : 12/8/2017 8:45 am : link
In comment 13729533 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
Or chose the wrong guys the results are the same- the
OL sucked.

Actually clubbing the picks is a worse indictment than if he flat out ignored
It. When the GM blows repeated picks it does not say much for his acumen.

Agreed and spending 200 million on one side of the ball just highlights how poor his drafting has been and left this team unable to fix the putrid O-line. The attempt to fix with bargain basement cast-offs (Fluker) was laughable. his draft in 2007 was great but I think he tried too hard to show he was smarter than the rest of the league instead of drafting the BPA. The Eli Apple pick was a joke when Tunsil was available.

And when the GM plunks 200+ millions on free agents and goes 2-10, the GM walks the plank.
RE: RE: Whether he devalued the OL  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/8/2017 11:15 am : link
In comment 13729871 gmenatlarge said:
Quote:
In comment 13729533 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


Or chose the wrong guys the results are the same- the
OL sucked.

Actually clubbing the picks is a worse indictment than if he flat out ignored
It. When the GM blows repeated picks it does not say much for his acumen.

Agreed and spending 200 million on one side of the ball just highlights how poor his drafting has been and left this team unable to fix the putrid O-line. The attempt to fix with bargain basement cast-offs (Fluker) was laughable. his draft in 2007 was great but I think he tried too hard to show he was smarter than the rest of the league instead of drafting the BPA. The Eli Apple pick was a joke when Tunsil was available.

And when the GM plunks 200+ millions on free agents and goes 2-10, the GM walks the plank.


Great use of the quote feature.
I still think  
liteamorn : 12/8/2017 11:30 am : link
His biggest mistake was letting La' el Collins end up a Cowboy
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