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NFT: Did the Shaver cop shooting thread go off the rails?

Overseer : 12/9/2017 11:15 am
Woke up and it was gone.
I wanted to read it but never got to  
Sonic Youth : 12/9/2017 11:57 am : link
Was interested to see what mental gymnastics people like Madcow and Giants24 would go through to make it seem like Shaver had it coming.
It started to get political  
njm : 12/9/2017 12:00 pm : link
So I, and not the moderators, pulled the plug
RE: I wanted to read it but never got to  
njm : 12/9/2017 12:01 pm : link
In comment 13731541 Sonic Youth said:
Quote:
Was interested to see what mental gymnastics people like Madcow and Giants24 would go through to make it seem like Shaver had it coming.


And it was crap like this, although less personal, made my decision for me.
RE: RE: I wanted to read it but never got to  
BigBlueShock : 12/9/2017 12:20 pm : link
In comment 13731548 njm said:
Quote:
In comment 13731541 Sonic Youth said:


Quote:


Was interested to see what mental gymnastics people like Madcow and Giants24 would go through to make it seem like Shaver had it coming.



And it was crap like this, although less personal, made my decision for me.

You can bet your ass that when Sonic Youth shows up on a thread, it has no chance to survive. Dude should really look in the mirror before blaming others because he is the absolute worst offender on the board.
njm - I was referring to my own thread  
Overseer : 12/9/2017 12:27 pm : link
posted at about 11:30pm last night (Friday). I didn't realize you had already made a (earlier?) thread and it was deleted.

Extremely intense video. Given the angle of the camera, it almost feels 1st person.
I’ve rarely found much fault with how police have acted in many...  
BurberryManning : 12/9/2017 12:39 pm : link
of the high profile cases we’ve seen but I’m beyond shocked that Shaver was not found guilty.
The guy did exactly what the officer told him not to do  
widmerseyebrow : 12/9/2017 1:11 pm : link
That being said, not sure why Shaver didn't just approach and cuff him once he was on the ground with his hands laced behind his head. Making people crawl to you seems more dangerous.
RE: The guy did exactly what the officer told him not to do  
EricJ : 12/9/2017 1:14 pm : link
In comment 13731616 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
That being said, not sure why Shaver didn't just approach and cuff him once he was on the ground with his hands laced behind his head. Making people crawl to you seems more dangerous.


not only that, but the instructions were no even clear. He was telling the guy to keep his hands up then immediately after told him to crawl which required the guy to put his hands down again.
I’m not sure I even knew what the officer wanted him to do...  
BurberryManning : 12/9/2017 1:17 pm : link
because of the conflicting/complex instructions, and I have the luxury of replay and a clear mind. Why wasn’t it enough for the suspect to lay on the ground or remain kneeling as the officer subdued him? Directing the suspect to shuffle or crawl just complicates the situation and invites odd movement.
Shaver was the man shot  
Overseer : 12/9/2017 1:24 pm : link
Cop's name is Philip Brailsford.

Shaver was terrified and inebriated. And was having unclear, at times contradictory instructions screamed at him.

My interpretation of "not following orders" was Shaver - again, utterly terrified - instinctively pulling up his falling shorts as he was crawling. An action an arguably trigger happy Brailsford saw as "reaching for a weapon."

Civilians are (obviously) not trained for high-pressure, volatile situations and the guy was understandably freaking out. That's why protocol exists. I can't imagine this cop was adhering to it.

RE: RE: RE: I wanted to read it but never got to  
Sonic Youth : 12/9/2017 1:26 pm : link
In comment 13731567 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 13731548 njm said:


Quote:


In comment 13731541 Sonic Youth said:


Quote:


Was interested to see what mental gymnastics people like Madcow and Giants24 would go through to make it seem like Shaver had it coming.



And it was crap like this, although less personal, made my decision for me.


You can bet your ass that when Sonic Youth shows up on a thread, it has no chance to survive. Dude should really look in the mirror before blaming others because he is the absolute worst offender on the board.
lol, not only is this not even remotely true, I couldn't give two shits what you think
RE: RE: I wanted to read it but never got to  
Sonic Youth : 12/9/2017 1:28 pm : link
In comment 13731548 njm said:
Quote:
In comment 13731541 Sonic Youth said:


Quote:


Was interested to see what mental gymnastics people like Madcow and Giants24 would go through to make it seem like Shaver had it coming.



And it was crap like this, although less personal, made my decision for me.
that's not political
That video is awful.  
est1986 : 12/9/2017 1:30 pm : link
That cop should be doing time for murder. The fact that it was captured on camera and he is still not going to jail is hard to understand but it is not surprising at all, cops can kill anyone, anywhere, for any reason. The justice system failed miserably here.
i didn’t know until I read the article that the cop  
giant24 : 12/9/2017 1:59 pm : link
Giving the orders was not the one who shot him. Only thing I can imagine is the cops thinking this was similar to the Las Vegas hotel shooting since reports were that someone saw a rifle from the hotel window and called it in so the cops were extremely on edge. Still was an odd set of instructions have never seen a cop make someone crawl to them but again I guess they thought there was someone with a rifle in the hotel room and wanted them away from the door.
..  
charlito : 12/9/2017 2:02 pm : link
Not surprised of the outcome. Standard operating procedure.
I was surprised  
pjcas18 : 12/9/2017 2:07 pm : link
it did not receive as much national attention as the Walter Scott case.
RE: RE: RE: I wanted to read it but never got to  
bigbluehoya : 12/9/2017 2:08 pm : link
In comment 13731655 Sonic Youth said:
Quote:
In comment 13731548 njm said:


Quote:


In comment 13731541 Sonic Youth said:


Quote:


Was interested to see what mental gymnastics people like Madcow and Giants24 would go through to make it seem like Shaver had it coming.



And it was crap like this, although less personal, made my decision for me.

that's not political


May not be political, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t crap.

Put your fingers in your ears and shout louder if you want to, but you’re a problem poster on any potentially divisive topic and you’re regularly a major player in getting threads torpedo’d.

Shock was 100% right.
RE: The guy did exactly what the officer told him not to do  
MOOPS : 12/9/2017 2:10 pm : link
In comment 13731616 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
That being said, not sure why Shaver didn't just approach and cuff him once he was on the ground with his hands laced behind his head. Making people crawl to you seems more dangerous.


THe room that the deceased came out of was not yet cleared and it was unknown if there were ant other subjects in that room.
To advance down the hall and cuff the subject where he was would create a tunnel effect with nowhere to hide if another person happened to pop out of the room and open fire.

Terrible incident. By statute the only conviction possible would have been manslaughter IMO, ie. 'recklessly causing death'. I would have been fine with that.
However ugly it looked however, once the deceased reached behind his back it became a legal gamechanger for a jury.
In situations like this a jury in most of the country is generally going to look for any reason to give the police officer the benefit of the doubt.
The subject reaching behind his back leads to the perception of imminent use of DPF, which was an out for this jury.
RE: I was surprised  
giant24 : 12/9/2017 2:11 pm : link
In comment 13731709 pjcas18 said:
[quote] it did not receive as much national attention as the Walter Scott case. [/quote
Didn’t fit the media narrative. Btw not much national media that the cop who shot Scott got sentenced to 20 years this week or not nearly as much as when it happened
RE: RE: RE: RE: I wanted to read it but never got to  
Sonic Youth : 12/9/2017 2:14 pm : link
In comment 13731713 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
In comment 13731655 Sonic Youth said:


Quote:


In comment 13731548 njm said:


Quote:


In comment 13731541 Sonic Youth said:


Quote:


Was interested to see what mental gymnastics people like Madcow and Giants24 would go through to make it seem like Shaver had it coming.



And it was crap like this, although less personal, made my decision for me.

that's not political



May not be political, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t crap.

Put your fingers in your ears and shout louder if you want to, but you’re a problem poster on any potentially divisive topic and you’re regularly a major player in getting threads torpedo’d.

Shock was 100% right.

cry me a river. i'm opinionated and willing to express my views. no mods have ever told me I got a thread deleted and I've never been banned for being political. if that's your opinion on my posts so be it, i'm not going to change and your allowed to have your viewpoint.

as for this not being big news, it's all over the internet
RE: That video is awful.  
Sonic Youth : 12/9/2017 2:15 pm : link
In comment 13731663 est1986 said:
Quote:
That cop should be doing time for murder. The fact that it was captured on camera and he is still not going to jail is hard to understand but it is not surprising at all, cops can kill anyone, anywhere, for any reason. The justice system failed miserably here.
It's sad how expected this outcome is
Correct:  
Overseer : 12/9/2017 2:26 pm : link
In comment 13731703 giant24 said:
Quote:
RE: i didn’t know until I read the article that the cop Giving the orders was not the one who shot him.

The cop who shot Shaver was Philip “Mitch” Brailsford.

The cop yelling the orders was Sgt. Charles Langley.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I wanted to read it but never got to  
giant24 : 12/9/2017 2:38 pm : link
In comment 13731719 Sonic Youth said:
Quote:
In comment 13731713 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


In comment 13731655 Sonic Youth said:


Quote:


In comment 13731548 njm said:


Quote:


In comment 13731541 Sonic Youth said:


Quote:


Was interested to see what mental gymnastics people like Madcow and Giants24 would go through to make it seem like Shaver had it coming.



And it was crap like this, although less personal, made my decision for me.

that's not political



May not be political, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t crap.

Put your fingers in your ears and shout louder if you want to, but you’re a problem poster on any potentially divisive topic and you’re regularly a major player in getting threads torpedo’d.

Shock was 100% right.


cry me a river. i'm opinionated and willing to express my views. no mods have ever told me I got a thread deleted and I've never been banned for being political. if that's your opinion on my posts so be it, i'm not going to change and your allowed to have your viewpoint.

as for this not being big news, it's all over the internet


I’ve pointed out many times where you have violated BBI thread rules with personal attacks and name calling and usually soon after the thread gets deleted after you show up. You really need to work on your tolerance of other people’s views which don’t align with yours.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I wanted to read it but never got to  
Sonic Youth : 12/9/2017 3:00 pm : link
In comment 13731743 giant24 said:
Quote:
In comment 13731719 Sonic Youth said:


Quote:


In comment 13731713 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


In comment 13731655 Sonic Youth said:


Quote:


In comment 13731548 njm said:


Quote:


In comment 13731541 Sonic Youth said:


Quote:


Was interested to see what mental gymnastics people like Madcow and Giants24 would go through to make it seem like Shaver had it coming.



And it was crap like this, although less personal, made my decision for me.

that's not political



May not be political, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t crap.

Put your fingers in your ears and shout louder if you want to, but you’re a problem poster on any potentially divisive topic and you’re regularly a major player in getting threads torpedo’d.

Shock was 100% right.


cry me a river. i'm opinionated and willing to express my views. no mods have ever told me I got a thread deleted and I've never been banned for being political. if that's your opinion on my posts so be it, i'm not going to change and your allowed to have your viewpoint.

as for this not being big news, it's all over the internet



I’ve pointed out many times where you have violated BBI thread rules with personal attacks and name calling and usually soon after the thread gets deleted after you show up. You really need to work on your tolerance of other people’s views which don’t align with yours.


Keep your unsolicited advice to yourself, as you're the last person I'd ever take some from
Anyone who thinks that killing was justified  
B in ALB : 12/9/2017 3:06 pm : link
Needs to reevaluate his/her life. That was murder me the situation didn't warrant taking a person's life.
Retired NYPD Here  
Bleedin Blue : 12/9/2017 3:12 pm : link
and I'm saddened by what I saw. I understand the police were responding to an individual with a gun in a hotel room, and may have been hyper vigilant due to the Vegas shooting. That kid was scared shitless. He was trying to comply, his nervousness got the best of him, but in my opinion, he didn't deserve to be shot. The officer could've rushed to him and take command of the situation when he wa lying on the floor in the prone position.
I know I'm Monday morning QB this situation, but I feel I can, I've been three situations in my career where I would've been totally justified in shooting a perp where I didn't. I had total command and was in a position of safety.

JMHO very sad situation!
RE: RE: The guy did exactly what the officer told him not to do  
WillVAB : 12/9/2017 3:15 pm : link
In comment 13731715 MOOPS said:
Quote:
In comment 13731616 widmerseyebrow said:


Quote:


That being said, not sure why Shaver didn't just approach and cuff him once he was on the ground with his hands laced behind his head. Making people crawl to you seems more dangerous.



THe room that the deceased came out of was not yet cleared and it was unknown if there were ant other subjects in that room.
To advance down the hall and cuff the subject where he was would create a tunnel effect with nowhere to hide if another person happened to pop out of the room and open fire.

Terrible incident. By statute the only conviction possible would have been manslaughter IMO, ie. 'recklessly causing death'. I would have been fine with that.
However ugly it looked however, once the deceased reached behind his back it became a legal gamechanger for a jury.
In situations like this a jury in most of the country is generally going to look for any reason to give the police officer the benefit of the doubt.
The subject reaching behind his back leads to the perception of imminent use of DPF, which was an out for this jury.


Sorry, that’s not good enough for me if I’m on that jury.
I still don't understand  
eclipz928 : 12/9/2017 3:27 pm : link
when it was that we got to a point where a police officer could justify using lethal force in the face of a *perceived* threat, as opposed to an imminent threat. If that standard were applied to civilians then virtually everyone could find a way to commit a homicide and avoid jail time.
I can understand them needing to get him away from the room  
steve in ky : 12/9/2017 3:34 pm : link
And he certainly reached for the small of his back when they made it clear if he did they would shoot.

That said the entire situation was seemingly so convoluted and stressful that he clearly was distraught by it and not functioning normally out of fear and panic that they instilled into him.

It just doesn't pass the smell test.

I don't know that the office was left with a lot of choice once he reached around towards the small of his back but the entire situation seem to be handled wrong, which created the panic and disorientation that led to his actions.

Feels like it could be handled a number of ways that would have been better than how they chose to do so.

I know being a police office is a stressful job but IMO they seemed far too aggressive given what they were faced with in that hallway. IMO there was zero reason for him to have to die in that situation had someone more skilled been in charge of the scene. From my perspective it appears like they themselves, thorough their own actions put the victim and themselves into almost the most horribly perfect situation to where it would practically ensure there wasn't going to be a good outcome.

The officer in charge and giving the orders bears the largest blame. He really sucked at communicating.
I’m usually on the side of the officer  
UConn4523 : 12/9/2017 3:39 pm : link
but man, that’s just awful. Absolutely murder IMO. The kid was practically pissing himself and was clearly freaked out. Shooting him at a few feet seems ludicrous.
And if this officer was that worried about a gun  
UConn4523 : 12/9/2017 3:41 pm : link
anytime during those 4+ minutes he could have asked him to standup and turn around and walk backwards towards him. Problem fucking solved.
Not that surprised by the verdict  
bc4life : 12/9/2017 7:01 pm : link
Generally, people are reluctant to convict police in these cases. Consequently, what people, the reluctant ones at least, will look for evidence, any piece of evidence, they can latch onto to give officer the benefit of the doubt.

If you watch the video, Shaver does an act that can be interpreted (painted) as reaching towards his waist. Could a reasonable officer interpret that single act as possibly reaching for a weapon? Apparently the jurors thought so, or at least, that was an out for someone reluctant to convict. This, of course, begs the question - if someone was going to reach for their waist - why exit room and appear to be hyper compliant to to all other police commands?

Ona side note, horrendous tactics. In that sense, reminds me of Tamir Miller shooting.
I hope  
WillVAB : 12/9/2017 7:51 pm : link
The family bankrupts the municipality in a wrongful death/excessive force suit.
The jury saw and heard all of the evidence, we saw raw video.  
Crispino : 12/9/2017 7:55 pm : link
What did 12 people see and hear that we didn't? Not one hold out juror would seem to indicate that there was more to this than we can glean from the video. To deny that would be to assume that 12 people simply decided sanction a cold blooded murder.
like I said  
bc4life : 12/9/2017 8:23 pm : link
many reluctant to convict cops. that is only way to explain Tulsa shooting and possibly this one. re: "we didn't get to hear all the evidence" - do you approach all criminal cases like that?

jurors do get things wrong. this may not have met statutory requirements, but it stinks and someone is unnecessarily dead and no one will be held accountable, except taxpayers who will undoubtedly have to settle this
illegal versus unnecessary  
bc4life : 12/9/2017 8:25 pm : link
outcome is the same - government agents killed someone who did not have to die.
RE: Anyone who thinks that killing was justified  
Craigg619 : 12/9/2017 8:28 pm : link
In comment 13731763 B in ALB said:
Quote:
Needs to reevaluate his/her life. That was murder me the situation didn't warrant taking a person's life.


It's horrifying that even just one person can find that killings justified. Straight up murder. Devastating, What a world.
Justified  
bc4life : 12/9/2017 8:37 pm : link
versus legally accountable for murder - I can see what evidence jury might have latched onto but, imo, legal issues aside - unnecessary.


Completely unnecessary and unjustified  
BigBlue4You09 : 12/9/2017 8:50 pm : link
The kid was scared shitless and doing everything the cops asked outside of a little confusion due to being scared out of his mind. There was absolutely no need to shoot him. He wasn’t reaching for a weapon or trying to rush the officers. He was on he ground in a controlled situation with two guns pointed at him. Sickening
Why do you suppose the jury failed to convict, even on....  
Crispino : 12/9/2017 9:20 pm : link
the lesser charge if the case against the cops is as clear cut as many here assert? What makes you so sure you have better information than the jurors? The jurors are chosen randomly, and the prosecution has a say in the jury’s makeup. So are all twelve people co conspirators? Did the prosecution intimidate the jurors?

I’m not saying the cops were innocent here, just that there would appear to be more than meets the eye here. 12 jurors came to the same conclusion and they saw and heard all of the evidence. I don’t think anyone here did.
I can understand the difference  
bc4life : 12/9/2017 9:49 pm : link
between legal accountability and unnecessary use of deadly force. They have to match fact pattern with statute, guided by judge's instructions. Might not have been a murder, according to jurors, but sure looks like an unnecessary use of deadly force - result for Shavers was the same.
RE: Retired NYPD Here  
Ned In Atlanta : 12/9/2017 10:26 pm : link
In comment 13731768 Bleedin Blue said:
Quote:
and I'm saddened by what I saw. I understand the police were responding to an individual with a gun in a hotel room, and may have been hyper vigilant due to the Vegas shooting. That kid was scared shitless. He was trying to comply, his nervousness got the best of him, but in my opinion, he didn't deserve to be shot. The officer could've rushed to him and take command of the situation when he wa lying on the floor in the prone position.
I know I'm Monday morning QB this situation, but I feel I can, I've been three situations in my career where I would've been totally justified in shooting a perp where I didn't. I had total command and was in a position of safety.

JMHO very sad situation!


Finally a sensible, meaningful perspective in the face of a lot of bickering. Thanks !
A radiolab podcast details the standards of "reasonable behavior"  
WideRight : 12/11/2017 10:15 am : link
Was the cops behavior considered reasonable? From our perspective obviously not. But the law has been manipulated to "at the time of the shooting". So not when he first encountered. not when the perp was on the ground, but at the very moment the gun was fired. And obviously whenever a gun is fired, the individual feels a threat at that moment. So by definition of current standards, cops win almost all the time.

They literally get away with murder.
RE: RE: Retired NYPD Here  
pjcas18 : 12/11/2017 10:18 am : link
In comment 13732087 Ned In Atlanta said:
Quote:
In comment 13731768 Bleedin Blue said:


Quote:


and I'm saddened by what I saw. I understand the police were responding to an individual with a gun in a hotel room, and may have been hyper vigilant due to the Vegas shooting. That kid was scared shitless. He was trying to comply, his nervousness got the best of him, but in my opinion, he didn't deserve to be shot. The officer could've rushed to him and take command of the situation when he wa lying on the floor in the prone position.
I know I'm Monday morning QB this situation, but I feel I can, I've been three situations in my career where I would've been totally justified in shooting a perp where I didn't. I had total command and was in a position of safety.

JMHO very sad situation!



Finally a sensible, meaningful perspective in the face of a lot of bickering. Thanks !


Except this happened 18 months before the Vegas shooting, so pretty sure it had zero impact on the officers. The video is being released now that the trial is over.

regardless of Vegas  
bc4life : 12/11/2017 5:14 pm : link
it's a gun call so being hyper-vigilant makes sense.

the idiotic "simon says" at gunpoint is where things go horribly wrong
RE: Retired NYPD Here  
montanagiant : 12/11/2017 7:23 pm : link
In comment 13731768 Bleedin Blue said:
Quote:
and I'm saddened by what I saw. I understand the police were responding to an individual with a gun in a hotel room, and may have been hyper vigilant due to the Vegas shooting. That kid was scared shitless. He was trying to comply, his nervousness got the best of him, but in my opinion, he didn't deserve to be shot. The officer could've rushed to him and take command of the situation when he wa lying on the floor in the prone position.
I know I'm Monday morning QB this situation, but I feel I can, I've been three situations in my career where I would've been totally justified in shooting a perp where I didn't. I had total command and was in a position of safety.

JMHO very sad situation!

Yeah, the part I never got was why have him move at all when you have him in a stretched out prone position 10' from you. Wouldn't the smartest thing to do is have one cover him while the other moves forward to secure him? I mean at some point you have to secure him prior to clearing the floor. Having him crawl invites nothing but confusion and jerky movement
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