For that crowd, I ask.... What plays did he leave on the field? What plays did he not make that changed the game?
Yeah, he threw 2 INT's, after we were down two, then three, scores... But when the game was still undecided?
What plays did he not make/leave on the field?
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In comment 13735184 Beezer said:
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But holy hell. Three straight running plays is an indication that Eli's lost it? Damn ... that's nutty.
Did you think you were watching the last 2 minutes of tie-game in the SuperBowl?
your nutty...
Do you not factor in ANY of the existing personnel?
You (and others) act as though personnel in these games makes zero difference.
So our first round pick match-up nightmare Tight End is not worthy of getting a chance? How about our second round pick slot guy from the year before? How about a throw to the back of the end zone that if our guy doesnt catch it nobody does?
How about trying to make a play...
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of weeks...
-A new coach likely would be able to hedge their bets by having a vet like Eli. That way, if you start winning, you're in position to actually make a run at something, but if you're losing, you buy yourself more time by putting it on Manning and then pulling him for the rookies, which would need more time to grow.
-This is a pretty common protocol for transition in the NFL.
The one thing I think you're really underestimating is how much the media/fan hysterics of a couple weeks ago might affect the thinking of the new coach.
I think it would only be natural if the new coach was hesitant to invite a repeat of that same situation if/when the time came to transition to the young QB midseason. And if you're being honest with yourself, you know that a midseason switch would always be on the radar just like it was for Warner with Eli.
It might not be the top consideration, but it's not insignificant either.
Actually I do think it would be different. There was zero reason to bench Eli last week and start Geno. None. It was a desperate, final act of two desperate men to save their jobs by once and for all dumping the failure at Eli's feet.
That's what the reaction was about.
They actually did the new regime a favor. Now the streak is over, and if a QB is drafted round one, you have a reason to bench Manning that fans can accept, if it comes to that.
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after a penalty its 1st & 20 on the Dallas 23rd yard line. We decide to run the ball three straight times and kick a FG instead of giving Eli Manning a chance to see if he can make a play.
Perfect example of why its over for him...
I think a more realistic view of this is that the Cowboys D set up in a formation that gave the Giants the run rather than pass. Eli, and Sullivan, saw this and checked into runs. Dallas was betting that we couldn't run the ball against them in a base setup, and they were correct. IMO this is more an indictment of our running game (line and backs) than anything to do with Eli.
So its nearly Christmas and we were 2-10 and decided to give the run 3 straight chances (4 if you count the penalty) versus putting the ball in the hands of Eli who can try and make a play?
the answer is simply...nobody believes he can and probably not even himself otherwise someone would say...lets give him a chance.
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In comment 13735233 Britt in VA said:
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there is a reason he's not active. What that reason is, I don't know.
But all of the information that is out there, that we are privy to, is that the people that make decisions don't think he's ready.
If that's maddening to you, well... Sorry? I don't know what to say. But that's what it's looking like right now, that he's not ready.
And it doesn't matter what you, me, the media, or anybody else except the people in the building that have the power to make the decision, thinks.
He got his first reps as a backup this past week, which was a short week for some reason (They started practice on Thursday I want to say). Give him at least 2 more weeks of reps as a backup, and I am sure he will dress and play in some games.
Give him at least two more weeks and then we'll see him dress and play in "some games"?
There's only three weeks left in the season.
This is what I was talking about, with you being an asshole. There is NO reason to act like a jerk.
The point being, they did not want to throw him to the Wolves with no preparation whatsoever.
As far as what he can gain from playing in our putrid offense, he can get to experience the speed of playing against an NFL team, and learn what it's like to process and make decisions when under that duress. Better he learns it sooner, rather then later.
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In comment 13735058 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
after a penalty its 1st & 20 on the Dallas 23rd yard line. We decide to run the ball three straight times and kick a FG instead of giving Eli Manning a chance to see if he can make a play.
Perfect example of why its over for him...
I think a more realistic view of this is that the Cowboys D set up in a formation that gave the Giants the run rather than pass. Eli, and Sullivan, saw this and checked into runs. Dallas was betting that we couldn't run the ball against them in a base setup, and they were correct. IMO this is more an indictment of our running game (line and backs) than anything to do with Eli.
So its nearly Christmas and we were 2-10 and decided to give the run 3 straight chances (4 if you count the penalty) versus putting the ball in the hands of Eli who can try and make a play?
the answer is simply...nobody believes he can and probably not even himself otherwise someone would say...lets give him a chance.
It was 1st and 20 after a 16 play drive, in a 3-0 game in which we are overmatched.
It's pretty common to go conservative and take the points, there. I see it week in, week out in the NFL, even with rosters much better than ours.
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In comment 13735302 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
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In comment 13735233 Britt in VA said:
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there is a reason he's not active. What that reason is, I don't know.
But all of the information that is out there, that we are privy to, is that the people that make decisions don't think he's ready.
If that's maddening to you, well... Sorry? I don't know what to say. But that's what it's looking like right now, that he's not ready.
And it doesn't matter what you, me, the media, or anybody else except the people in the building that have the power to make the decision, thinks.
He got his first reps as a backup this past week, which was a short week for some reason (They started practice on Thursday I want to say). Give him at least 2 more weeks of reps as a backup, and I am sure he will dress and play in some games.
Give him at least two more weeks and then we'll see him dress and play in "some games"?
There's only three weeks left in the season.
This is what I was talking about, with you being an asshole. There is NO reason to act like a jerk.
The point being, they did not want to throw him to the Wolves with no preparation whatsoever.
As far as what he can gain from playing in our putrid offense, he can get to experience the speed of playing against an NFL team, and learn what it's like to process and make decisions when under that duress. Better he learns it sooner, rather then later.
Hahah, geez... How is stating the obvious being an asshole?
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after a penalty its 1st & 20 on the Dallas 23rd yard line. We decide to run the ball three straight times and kick a FG instead of giving Eli Manning a chance to see if he can make a play.
Perfect example of why its over for him...
I think a more realistic view of this is that the Cowboys D set up in a formation that gave the Giants the run rather than pass. Eli, and Sullivan, saw this and checked into runs. Dallas was betting that we couldn't run the ball against them in a base setup, and they were correct. IMO this is more an indictment of our running game (line and backs) than anything to do with Eli.
You can't just always take what the opponent gives you - sometimes you have to impose your will on them. Of course they're going to give the Giants the run on 1st and 20! That's not necessarily an indictment of the Giants running game. Lombardi's Packers wouldn't consistently convert from a starting point of 1st and 20.
And I don't mean for that to be entirely on Eli, either, but the whole "take what the defense gives you" no matter what the circumstance is, is frustrating. We've seen it a number of times late in games as well, when the Giants have a chance to score to get back into the game, but continue to dink and dunk the clock away.
To the extent, however, that we know that Eli has historically been a gunslinger and that we believe he still has carte blanche when it comes to audibles, it's at least a little bit on him that he's become so much more conservative himself. It's not like he's never made a play in his career while throwing into coverage.
You sure about that? Webb is an afterthought because of the "franchise guy we are getting"?
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In comment 13735058 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
after a penalty its 1st & 20 on the Dallas 23rd yard line. We decide to run the ball three straight times and kick a FG instead of giving Eli Manning a chance to see if he can make a play.
Perfect example of why its over for him...
I think a more realistic view of this is that the Cowboys D set up in a formation that gave the Giants the run rather than pass. Eli, and Sullivan, saw this and checked into runs. Dallas was betting that we couldn't run the ball against them in a base setup, and they were correct. IMO this is more an indictment of our running game (line and backs) than anything to do with Eli.
You can't just always take what the opponent gives you - sometimes you have to impose your will on them. Of course they're going to give the Giants the run on 1st and 20! That's not necessarily an indictment of the Giants running game. Lombardi's Packers wouldn't consistently convert from a starting point of 1st and 20.
And I don't mean for that to be entirely on Eli, either, but the whole "take what the defense gives you" no matter what the circumstance is, is frustrating. We've seen it a number of times late in games as well, when the Giants have a chance to score to get back into the game, but continue to dink and dunk the clock away.
To the extent, however, that we know that Eli has historically been a gunslinger and that we believe he still has carte blanche when it comes to audibles, it's at least a little bit on him that he's become so much more conservative himself. It's not like he's never made a play in his career while throwing into coverage.
Look I'm not stating anything as fact, I'm just pointing out that there are other reasons here. I think, in my opinion not fact, that at that stage of the game, with long yardage to go and the D playing it as such, that the Giants decided it was more important to take the points. A lot of teams have also made that decision. I think it had more to do with the game situation than Eli.
1. Britt talks well about Eli again
2. Gatorade Jimmy Googs and others debate the same thing over and over... again
3. Arc comes in as the middle ground and nails everything, right on the head...again
Can this season just end already?
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In comment 13735223 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 13735184 Beezer said:
Quote:
But holy hell. Three straight running plays is an indication that Eli's lost it? Damn ... that's nutty.
Did you think you were watching the last 2 minutes of tie-game in the SuperBowl?
your nutty...
Do you not factor in ANY of the existing personnel?
You (and others) act as though personnel in these games makes zero difference.
So our first round pick match-up nightmare Tight End is not worthy of getting a chance? How about our second round pick slot guy from the year before? How about a throw to the back of the end zone that if our guy doesnt catch it nobody does?
How about trying to make a play...
Yeah, I'm with you. Just not putting those decisions on Eli. Unless he's calling the plays in the huddle, and in that case, OK. I just did not think he was.
I mean sure, he missed Ellison but that was the opening drive to make it 3-3, they settled for a FG anyway. There were three Cowboy defenders right by Ellison at the 25. I highly doubt that's a walk in touchdown if he hits him right in the hand. Same drive, three points.
Shepard practically ran to the same spot where Ellison was missed, just a few plays later. The Giants were done in by another dumb ass offensive lineman penalty.
It sets the tone...
A lot of coaches would play conservative there. We see it every week.
I say, they're 2-10 with nothing to lose, but that's not how they were thinking.
But give it a shot. Otherwise I think Webb can hand off 3 straight times too...
As far as "elevating" the players around him, some of these guys weren't even on rosters 8 weeks ago. They'll go back to out of the NFL after this offseason. I think you're expecting too much.
Even Engram gets plenty of targets and catches. He also has a lot of drops.
That's pretty much the only reliable receiver he consistently has. And before you mention Sheppard, I said consistently.
As far as "elevating" the players around him, some of these guys weren't even on rosters 8 weeks ago. They'll go back to out of the NFL after this offseason. I think you're expecting too much.
Even Engram gets plenty of targets and catches. He also has a lot of drops.
That's pretty much the only reliable receiver he consistently has. And before you mention Sheppard, I said consistently.
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but I am saying that the truth is, there's as little to gain from that as playing Eli. Whether it's Webb, Smith, or eve3n Eli for that matter, at this point it is wanting them to play just to see them play. Neither Smith nor Webb has a future here. Webb would have had a future if we had made the playoffs or even just finished outside the playoffs. But we didn't, so he he doesn't. The only one with a future actually, is Eli and that's iffy at this point. His future is as a mentor or potential bridge to the franchise guy we are getting. And, we already know what Eli is, so there's no real need to evaluate him. For future purposes, the QB is the least important position to look at this season. YEt, it's the most talked about.
You sure about that? Webb is an afterthought because of the "franchise guy we are getting"?
kind of amazing he can simply get out of bed each day and make it to the stadium.
We really need to revamp the draft evaluation process and ask the students if they ever even played real football before...
In 2014 Eli was 6th in yards, and 6th in TD's in the NFL.
In 2015 Eli was 6th in yards and 3rd in TD's in the NFL.
He's had two bad years in an awful offense.
We scored 30 or more points 7 times in 2015, including 3 out of the last 4 games.
The offense changed a lot more than the player did, and the results everywhere reflect that.
Quote:
can "hand it off three straight times" since he hasn't taken many snaps from center.
kind of amazing he can simply get out of bed each day and make it to the stadium.
We really need to revamp the draft evaluation process and ask the students if they ever even played real football before...
You need to direct this at the guys making the decisions, the professionals that are currently evaluating this and coming to the conclusion that he isn't ready, not me.
Hes my favorite Giant of all-time. I didnt get to see much of LT. I didnt get to see 1990 or really remember it, but I will acknowledge that he is getting older and he is starting to decline, not the same guy he was in 2011 of course.
I honestly think he has taken so much abuse and way too many hits over the course of his career thats why its starting to show, mixed with age. He played in 210 straight games behind James Brewer, Will Beatty, and even Pughs no-shows against Philly.
I don't think it was ever in the itinerary for Eli to be great this season, was it? We were worried about him the most going into this season here on BBI. We were talking Super Bowl. We just needed "enough" from him because we thought this defense would return to its 2016 form and offensively Eli needed to be a pro manager, reading defenses and OBJ kind of do the rest. Come weeks 1 and 2 against a mediocre Dallas team, this offense with Beckham not 100% looked like well, a team that was destined for 2-11.
That plan from 2016 didnt translate over. Those two games to open the season were trash. The play calling, the clueless coaching, the bad blocking, drops, Marshall was essentially worthless.
Hes just playing for the sake of playing, I get it. But him missing a wide open guy and then forgetting about it and making a play like the one he made to Shepard on the very next one, thats always kind of been his thing. The upside is the Giants are going to be getting a good draft pick and a shiny new QB.
2017 we were fucked from the start with the OBJ injury vs the Browns
1738 Comp 2809 Att 61.87% 19326yds 124TD 80 Int
If you take McCown this year extrapolate for 16 games and multiply by 5
1643 Comp 2443 Att 67% 18006 YDS 111 TD 55 Int
Fumble make Eli look worse...Eli is not worth his contract. Jets were thought by some to have worst talent in NFL to start season. That isn't 20 million a year play and it not just this year.
in 2015, when Eli was 6th in yards and 3rd in TD's, McCown was 28th in yards and 30th in TD's.
Kind of silly, no?
1738 Comp 2809 Att 61.87% 19326yds 124TD 80 Int
If you take McCown this year extrapolate for 16 games and multiply by 5
1643 Comp 2443 Att 67% 18006 YDS 111 TD 55 Int
Fumble make Eli look worse...Eli is not worth his contract. Jets were thought by some to have worst talent in NFL to start season. That isn't 20 million a year play and it not just this year.
That's not how stats in football work. You can't combine five seasons and compare them.
Each season is it's own entity.
1738 Comp 2809 Att 61.87% 19326yds 124TD 80 Int
If you take McCown this year extrapolate for 16 games and multiply by 5
1643 Comp 2443 Att 67% 18006 YDS 111 TD 55 Int
Fumble make Eli look worse...Eli is not worth his contract. Jets were thought by some to have worst talent in NFL to start season. That isn't 20 million a year play and it not just this year.
McCown is done for the year now, but yeah, he had a much better year than anyone thought he would with no talent around him on the Jets. Pretty crazy.
If you think any of that is relevant, I don't know what to tell you.
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In comment 13735259 Bill L said:
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but I am saying that the truth is, there's as little to gain from that as playing Eli. Whether it's Webb, Smith, or eve3n Eli for that matter, at this point it is wanting them to play just to see them play. Neither Smith nor Webb has a future here. Webb would have had a future if we had made the playoffs or even just finished outside the playoffs. But we didn't, so he he doesn't. The only one with a future actually, is Eli and that's iffy at this point. His future is as a mentor or potential bridge to the franchise guy we are getting. And, we already know what Eli is, so there's no real need to evaluate him. For future purposes, the QB is the least important position to look at this season. YEt, it's the most talked about.
You sure about that? Webb is an afterthought because of the "franchise guy we are getting"?
I'm 100% sure. Exceptions don't change strategy.
Oh, I agree with you that you can't base your strategy around exceptions - I'm not denying that. But you're the one declaring that Webb has no future with this team and I'm just saying that there's no way for you to know that. It's entirely possible that the supposed franchise QB the Giants select could wash out, and it's also possible that they both end up being very good with Webb being even better than whoever they draft.
I'm not disagreeing with the premise of the Giants selecting a QB at the top of the draft, just the certainty that anyone can say for sure that Webb has no future with the team. And I used Cousins as the example because he was drafted three rounds behind Griffin (in the same draft) with the idea that Griffin would be the franchise QB and Cousins would be likely be just a backup or trade bait. Years later, Griffin is currently out of the league while Cousins has thrown for more than twice as many TDs as RG3 over their careers and is poised to cash in with a huge contract.
There just isn't a way for you (or anyone else) to be certain that Webb has no future with the team.
Stay the course, the offense will come around some day...
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5 years of ELi
1738 Comp 2809 Att 61.87% 19326yds 124TD 80 Int
If you take McCown this year extrapolate for 16 games and multiply by 5
1643 Comp 2443 Att 67% 18006 YDS 111 TD 55 Int
Fumble make Eli look worse...Eli is not worth his contract. Jets were thought by some to have worst talent in NFL to start season. That isn't 20 million a year play and it not just this year.
That's not how stats in football work. You can't combine five seasons and compare them.
Each season is it's own entity.
I'm giving you a season at the Jets with terrible talent around him for an older QB and making it 5 years. I gave Eli Stats for the last 5 years starting at 2013. Eli last 5 years is journeyman stats, you cannot spin or deflect your way out.
Quote:
In comment 13735893 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
5 years of ELi
1738 Comp 2809 Att 61.87% 19326yds 124TD 80 Int
If you take McCown this year extrapolate for 16 games and multiply by 5
1643 Comp 2443 Att 67% 18006 YDS 111 TD 55 Int
Fumble make Eli look worse...Eli is not worth his contract. Jets were thought by some to have worst talent in NFL to start season. That isn't 20 million a year play and it not just this year.
That's not how stats in football work. You can't combine five seasons and compare them.
Each season is it's own entity.
I'm giving you a season at the Jets with terrible talent around him for an older QB and making it 5 years. I gave Eli Stats for the last 5 years starting at 2013. Eli last 5 years is journeyman stats, you cannot spin or deflect your way out.
Did 2014 and 2015 occur in the last five years?
1833 2815 65.12% 21553 148 70
Eli Manning: 14th in the NFL in yards, 21st in TD's
Josh McCown: 30th in the NFL in yards, 27th in TD's
2014:
Eli Manning: 6th in the NFL in yards, 6th in TD's
Josh McCown: 28th in the NFL in yards, 30th in TD's
2015:
Eli Manning: 6th in the NFL in yards, 3rd in TD's
Josh McCown: 30th in the NFL in yards, 30th in TD's
2016:
Eli Manning: 13th in the NFL in yards, 11th in TD's
Josh McCown: 34th in the NFL in yards, 35th in TD's
Are you really saying this is comparable?
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In comment 13735905 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13735893 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
5 years of ELi
1738 Comp 2809 Att 61.87% 19326yds 124TD 80 Int
If you take McCown this year extrapolate for 16 games and multiply by 5
1643 Comp 2443 Att 67% 18006 YDS 111 TD 55 Int
Fumble make Eli look worse...Eli is not worth his contract. Jets were thought by some to have worst talent in NFL to start season. That isn't 20 million a year play and it not just this year.
That's not how stats in football work. You can't combine five seasons and compare them.
Each season is it's own entity.
I'm giving you a season at the Jets with terrible talent around him for an older QB and making it 5 years. I gave Eli Stats for the last 5 years starting at 2013. Eli last 5 years is journeyman stats, you cannot spin or deflect your way out.
Did 2014 and 2015 occur in the last five years?
Nobody is changing anybody's mind. We'll just watch it play out and see what happens, then revisit later.
@giantswfan
3m3 minutes ago
Spags said "probrably no differently" when asked about plans for Webb this week....(likely means he stays 3rd string) #giants
Other than that, I thought he was extremely accurate.
Yep, that pass to Ellison where nobody was within five yards
of the guy was extremely accurate in the first half.
The ball was five yards over his head too!
Guess you had stepped away from the tube huh?
Nobody is changing anybody's mind. We'll just watch it play out and see what happens, then revisit later.
.....
Route 9 : 11:43 am : link : reply
Same old shit.
1. Britt talks well about Eli again
2. Gatorade Jimmy Googs and others debate the same thing over and over... again
3. Arc comes in as the middle ground and nails everything, right on the head...again
It's all archived right here on BBI.
All we can do is wait and see, now.
It's all archived right here on BBI.
All we can do is wait and see, now.