for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

$34.5 million....

Sarcastic Sam : 12/10/2017 6:14 pm
That's the combined 2018 cap hit for Olivier Vernon and Jason Pierre-Paul. We're going to be spending roughly 20% of our cap on these D-grade DEs.... and we can't even cut them easily; JPP would have a $22.75m cap penalty and Vernon would be $12m.

And our current interim GM, cap guru, and possible future GM signed off on this deal....
One or both could get cut after 2018 season  
Vanzetti : 12/10/2017 6:19 pm : link
JPP would be a 9.5 million cap savings (10 million dead hit)

OV would be an 11.5 million cap savings (8 million dead hit)
How  
MookGiants : 12/10/2017 6:23 pm : link
do you know Abrams signed off on the deal? You think as the numbers guy Abrams could step in and say "nope, we can't do this". He doesn't pick who to get, he just made the numbers work
Whatever dude  
B in ALB : 12/10/2017 6:26 pm : link
Vernon almost had a sack today. And JPP kicked a ChillZone heated bench like he really really meant it.
JPP had one great pass rush today  
mfsd : 12/10/2017 6:28 pm : link
of course, that was bc the Cowboys forgot to block him on that one, but still
RE: Whatever dude  
BigBlueShock : 12/10/2017 6:29 pm : link
In comment 13734090 B in ALB said:
Quote:
Vernon almost had a sack today. And JPP kicked a ChillZone heated bench like he really really meant it.

He sure was showing tons of energy and emotion while standing his sorry ass on the sidelines today. Too bad he didn’t bring it when he was on the field...
There's not one leader on this team.  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/10/2017 6:29 pm : link
It's sad.
RE: There's not one leader on this team.  
adamg : 12/10/2017 6:30 pm : link
In comment 13734099 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
It's sad.


Snacks and that's it really. I hope he's the captain next year.
Wait  
Go Terps : 12/10/2017 6:33 pm : link
Where's everyone talking about pressures?

This shit was obvious about these players when we signed them. A lot less rationalizing going on now.
RE: How  
Sarcastic Sam : 12/10/2017 6:35 pm : link
In comment 13734081 MookGiants said:
Quote:
do you know Abrams signed off on the deal? You think as the numbers guy Abrams could step in and say "nope, we can't do this". He doesn't pick who to get, he just made the numbers work


I'm assuming the numbers guy signed off on the numbers. Dunno why, I'm just feelin' frisky.
RE: Wait  
adamg : 12/10/2017 6:36 pm : link
In comment 13734109 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Where's everyone talking about pressures?

This shit was obvious about these players when we signed them. A lot less rationalizing going on now.


You look like a genius this year. Given we're stuck with these guys for the foreseeable future, I hope it turns out you're wrong yet.
RE: RE: How  
MookGiants : 12/10/2017 6:38 pm : link
In comment 13734116 Sarcastic Sam said:
Quote:
In comment 13734081 MookGiants said:


Quote:


do you know Abrams signed off on the deal? You think as the numbers guy Abrams could step in and say "nope, we can't do this". He doesn't pick who to get, he just made the numbers work



I'm assuming the numbers guy signed off on the numbers. Dunno why, I'm just feelin' frisky.


So he should have made JPP and Vernon take less?

Reese and Mara decided to bring them back. Don't blame him because they had to pay the going rate. Jacksonville offered Vernon more money. Should Abrams have somehow convinced those guys to take less money?

Cap space has not been an issue for the Giants.
RE: RE: RE: How  
Sarcastic Sam : 12/10/2017 6:40 pm : link
In comment 13734126 MookGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 13734116 Sarcastic Sam said:


Quote:


In comment 13734081 MookGiants said:


Quote:


do you know Abrams signed off on the deal? You think as the numbers guy Abrams could step in and say "nope, we can't do this". He doesn't pick who to get, he just made the numbers work



I'm assuming the numbers guy signed off on the numbers. Dunno why, I'm just feelin' frisky.



So he should have made JPP and Vernon take less?

Reese and Mara decided to bring them back. Don't blame him because they had to pay the going rate. Jacksonville offered Vernon more money. Should Abrams have somehow convinced those guys to take less money?

Cap space has not been an issue for the Giants.


Maybe he should have figured that spending 20% of the cap on 2 players, with contracts that make it difficult to cut, would not be a good idea? Maybe?

Hell, if Eli stays, that's roughly 1/3 of the cap spent on 3 players.
Vernon is a horrible  
LauderdaleMatty : 12/10/2017 6:47 pm : link
Contract. And that year they could have singed two FAOL for that. Thank God they passed on OL for a guy who wasn't even great in Miami.
RE: RE: Wait  
MetsAreBack : 12/10/2017 6:51 pm : link
In comment 13734118 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 13734109 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Where's everyone talking about pressures?

This shit was obvious about these players when we signed them. A lot less rationalizing going on now.



You look like a genius this year. Given we're stuck with these guys for the foreseeable future, I hope it turns out you're wrong yet.


lol GT would go 8-8 every year only spending $50 mil/ year. A lot of owners would love the profit he made them though.
RE: Vernon is a horrible  
RetroJint : 12/10/2017 6:52 pm : link
In comment 13734146 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
Contract. And that year they could have singed two FAOL for that. Thank God they passed on OL for a guy who wasn't even great in Miami.


You are approaching the Kingdom, closer still. On your game and feeling it. Is Dak Prescott bigger than Vernon? He seems to be stronger .
RE: RE: RE: Wait  
adamg : 12/10/2017 6:52 pm : link
In comment 13734154 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
In comment 13734118 adamg said:


Quote:


In comment 13734109 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Where's everyone talking about pressures?

This shit was obvious about these players when we signed them. A lot less rationalizing going on now.



You look like a genius this year. Given we're stuck with these guys for the foreseeable future, I hope it turns out you're wrong yet.



lol GT would go 8-8 every year only spending $50 mil/ year. A lot of owners would love the profit he made them though.


I don't agree with him. But it's hard to stand by that JPP contract right now.
As a Fin fan and friend of mine said  
mdc1 : 12/10/2017 6:56 pm : link
thanks for taking Vernon.
RE: RE: Wait  
BigBlueShock : 12/10/2017 7:03 pm : link
In comment 13734118 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 13734109 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Where's everyone talking about pressures?

This shit was obvious about these players when we signed them. A lot less rationalizing going on now.



You look like a genius this year. Given we're stuck with these guys for the foreseeable future, I hope it turns out you're wrong yet.

It’s hard to give Terps too much credit here when he feels the same about any player in the league that makes over the league minimum. Brady, Rodgers and Von Miller are his ONLY exceptions.
.  
Go Terps : 12/10/2017 7:16 pm : link
I've never advocated for paying only the league minimum, or spending less than the cap.

But that shouldn't stop two of the shittiest posters on the board from continuing to add to BBI.
...  
BleedBlue : 12/10/2017 7:19 pm : link
the season is over, guys are dogging it....id be happy to see both of them back in 2018 when our games actually mean something. if you think guys are giving 100% right now youre out of your mind
RE: .  
BigBlueShock : 12/10/2017 7:26 pm : link
In comment 13734239 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I've never advocated for paying only the league minimum, or spending less than the cap.

But that shouldn't stop two of the shittiest posters on the board from continuing to add to BBI.

We are all well aware of your team building aspirations. Your team would be League minimum choir boys, players that will somehow agree to sign with your team for half their value, trade any player with an ounce of talent before you have to pay them and spend 3 picks per year on mobile QBs so you can keep shuffling them around when they get injured and by drafting them every year you will never have to pay them when their contract is up. In other words, you’d be a cheaper version of the Cleveland Browns.

How’d I do?
RE: .  
Sarcastic Sam : 12/10/2017 7:38 pm : link
In comment 13734239 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I've never advocated for paying only the league minimum, or spending less than the cap.

But that shouldn't stop two of the shittiest posters on the board from continuing to add to BBI.


Aw thanks, you noticed!
RE: RE: .  
Go Terps : 12/10/2017 7:48 pm : link
In comment 13734277 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 13734239 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I've never advocated for paying only the league minimum, or spending less than the cap.

But that shouldn't stop two of the shittiest posters on the board from continuing to add to BBI.


We are all well aware of your team building aspirations. Your team would be League minimum choir boys, players that will somehow agree to sign with your team for half their value, trade any player with an ounce of talent before you have to pay them and spend 3 picks per year on mobile QBs so you can keep shuffling them around when they get injured and by drafting them every year you will never have to pay them when their contract is up. In other words, you’d be a cheaper version of the Cleveland Browns.

How’d I do?


Poorly, as ever.
The dead cap money  
RobCarpenter : 12/10/2017 7:54 pm : link
Would almost be worth it to start the rebuild. Maybe the new GM can trade them or restructure the deals for OV and JPP.
RE: RE: Vernon is a horrible  
LauderdaleMatty : 12/10/2017 7:59 pm : link
In comment 13734157 RetroJint said:
Quote:
In comment 13734146 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


Contract. And that year they could have singed two FAOL for that. Thank God they passed on OL for a guy who wasn't even great in Miami.





You are approaching the Kingdom, closer still. On your game and feeling it. Is Dak Prescott bigger than Vernon? He seems to be stronger .


The Reese era is hopefully over. After 2018 both these guys can be gone
I truly believe that with a new coach,  
Jim in Forest Hills : 12/10/2017 8:21 pm : link
Hopefully the right culture, both these guys will play better. Everyone is playing terrible, it’s infectious. Without real belief that they can win the edge is off.
RE: RE: RE: .  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/10/2017 8:22 pm : link
In comment 13734327 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13734277 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


In comment 13734239 Go Terps said:


Quote:


I've never advocated for paying only the league minimum, or spending less than the cap.

But that shouldn't stop two of the shittiest posters on the board from continuing to add to BBI.


We are all well aware of your team building aspirations. Your team would be League minimum choir boys, players that will somehow agree to sign with your team for half their value, trade any player with an ounce of talent before you have to pay them and spend 3 picks per year on mobile QBs so you can keep shuffling them around when they get injured and by drafting them every year you will never have to pay them when their contract is up. In other words, you’d be a cheaper version of the Cleveland Browns.

How’d I do?



Poorly, as ever.

Actually, that's a pretty accurate summation of the different things you've advocated on here.
Actually it isn't  
Go Terps : 12/10/2017 8:25 pm : link
But who gives a shit.
Well the GM  
cokeduplt : 12/10/2017 8:34 pm : link
That signed these guys just got fired. What else can be done about it now?
Throw in Eli and his ten points a game,  
Dan in the Springs : 12/10/2017 8:38 pm : link
And how much total cap space are we up to?
I know people are not going to want  
Powerclean765 : 12/10/2017 8:54 pm : link
to hear this but JPP injured his hand vs the Jets in the preseason game. Who knows how much that's affected him.
RE: Wait  
djm : 12/10/2017 9:02 pm : link
In comment 13734109 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Where's everyone talking about pressures?

This shit was obvious about these players when we signed them. A lot less rationalizing going on now.


They were playing better last year and the year before that. That's worth mentioning.
I think they both could be much better  
Simms11 : 12/10/2017 9:06 pm : link
in a rotation at DE. OV is still a solid DE. He has never been a guy to get the sack stats, but he can apply pressure and he’s good against the run. JPP has taken a a step back this year in his ability to stop the run. His only pass rush move seems to be the bull rush and when he gets stood up, he generally stops moving and it’s over. We need to find a solid DE that can rush the passer in this draft. We obviously can’t afford another FA DE with those skills and so we may be stuck with what we have for at least a few more years! There might be better edge rushers in this draft and if we can find someone at the top of the second round, then it would be worth the pick IMO.
RE: The dead cap money  
FStubbs : 12/10/2017 9:58 pm : link
In comment 13734356 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
Would almost be worth it to start the rebuild. Maybe the new GM can trade them or restructure the deals for OV and JPP.


I've wondered that. The team will likely not be competitive in 2018 so why not eat all the dead money next year and then resign Beckham and Collins?
RE: Vernon is a horrible  
Boy Cord : 12/10/2017 10:19 pm : link
In comment 13734146 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
Contract. And that year they could have singed two FAOL for that. Thank God they passed on OL for a guy who wasn't even great in Miami.


And there were some damn good FA OL available that year. I can't complain. I was feeling damn good about the 2016 signings this time last year.
Look at your top 6 cap numbers...  
Doomster : 12/11/2017 8:31 am : link
Eli, JPP, OV, JJ, Snacks, and DRC....

That is 60% of your cap...

Franchise OBj for 8.5M, and more than 2/3 of your cap goes to 7 players....

That leaves 1/3 of your cap for the rest of the team.....

Which means, the average salary for the rest of the players is about 1.5M....with 15 other starters with their hand out, looking for more than 1.5M, is it any wonder we have no depth on this team because they are just bodies playing for the minimum....

Thank you Jerry Reese...
RE: There's not one leader on this team.  
Jersey55 : 12/11/2017 11:20 am : link
In comment 13734099 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
It's sad.

you're absolutely right, we have no leaders on this team and we're playing like a rudderless ship, where is Keith Hamilton when we need him.....
I understood the OV contract.  
Section331 : 12/11/2017 11:31 am : link
Yeah, it was a massive overpay, but he's a good all-around DE. The problem is that JPP is the same thing. I good all-around DE, but neither is an elite pass rusher. Signing OV made sense if you had made the decision to let JPP walk.

This can still work, though. Draft or sign a good edge rusher, and move JPP inside on passing downs.
That's more than the entire front 4..  
Racer : 12/11/2017 11:51 am : link
...in Charlotte is hitting their cap and the team has 40 sacks.

But Gettleman is more of the same and he hurts peoples feelings, so I dismiss this as noise.
Timeline  
Colin@gbn : 12/11/2017 12:13 pm : link
Not to confuse the subject but looking at the timeline of how all this played out maybe gives a better sense of what people were thinking. In 2015, the Giants had a close to Top 5 offense (with pretty much the same guys we have today) but an historically bad defense. And given that at the end of that year it looked like there was still a 3-4 year window of opportunity with Eli the Giants went all in on the defense and bought the best D money could buy. Did they overpay for guys like JPP and Vernon? Was it a gamble? Yes and Yes. Absolutely, but that was the only way you were going to get any kind of rush and without getting some kind of pass rush you were going to be fucked anyway. And the expectation was that the offense (with the same OL we have today) would continue to play at the level they did in 2015 and the D would be better. And indeed the D was worth every penny last year but the offense regressed. The hope this year was that Eli and the offense would bounce back and the D would play at a level similar to last year and you would be back in the hunt. Instead the D regressed and the O did not come back. Ah but life would just be so easy if we could make all our decisions with hindsight!
..........  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 12/11/2017 12:14 pm : link
Seems the nail in the coffin for Reese was his free agent spending spree, along with JPP, last season.

He thought we were in a position to make a run. Turns out the offense was too big of a problem.

Now they're saddled with these huge DE contracts
RE: RE: Vernon is a horrible  
LauderdaleMatty : 12/11/2017 1:08 pm : link
In comment 13734676 Boy Cord said:
Quote:
In comment 13734146 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


Contract. And that year they could have singed two FAOL for that. Thank God they passed on OL for a guy who wasn't even great in Miami.



And there were some damn good FA OL available that year. I can't complain. I was feeling damn good about the 2016 signings this time last year.


I wasn't really for or against it. He was good but never great for Miami. Local kid and a hard worker. And I think we all assumed Reese would have addressed the OL earlier than RD 6 this year. Both Engram and Tomlinson look to be good players but this team now needs like 3-4 OL this year w all the guys they may lose to FA

Its a mess

RE: Timeline  
Go Terps : 12/11/2017 1:11 pm : link
In comment 13735473 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
Not to confuse the subject but looking at the timeline of how all this played out maybe gives a better sense of what people were thinking. In 2015, the Giants had a close to Top 5 offense (with pretty much the same guys we have today) but an historically bad defense. And given that at the end of that year it looked like there was still a 3-4 year window of opportunity with Eli the Giants went all in on the defense and bought the best D money could buy. Did they overpay for guys like JPP and Vernon? Was it a gamble? Yes and Yes. Absolutely, but that was the only way you were going to get any kind of rush and without getting some kind of pass rush you were going to be fucked anyway. And the expectation was that the offense (with the same OL we have today) would continue to play at the level they did in 2015 and the D would be better. And indeed the D was worth every penny last year but the offense regressed. The hope this year was that Eli and the offense would bounce back and the D would play at a level similar to last year and you would be back in the hunt. Instead the D regressed and the O did not come back. Ah but life would just be so easy if we could make all our decisions with hindsight!


Thinking Vernon and JPP would provide a big pass rush was a mistake; JPP was a top pass rusher only once in his career (2011) and Vernon never was. Paying them like they're Von Miller and Khalil Mack was lunacy.

And I'm not saying that with hindsight.
They both suck this year.  
Keith : 12/11/2017 1:11 pm : link
There's a lot about this team that's really bad. That being said, they are both really good players in a really bad situation. I'm not ready to write them off completely yet. Let's see how they do next year and then we can move on. That's the good thing about NFL contracts, we could get out before its over.
RE: They both suck this year.  
Go Terps : 12/11/2017 1:13 pm : link
In comment 13735608 Keith said:
Quote:
There's a lot about this team that's really bad. That being said, they are both really good players in a really bad situation. I'm not ready to write them off completely yet. Let's see how they do next year and then we can move on. That's the good thing about NFL contracts, we could get out before its over.


The bad thing is that we can't get out now. We're stuck with them for 2018. I've read on a few posts how it's good that we can cut them before their contracts are up. It isn't good...it's just less bad.
Well, unlike you,  
Keith : 12/11/2017 1:17 pm : link
I can see them turning it around. It's not ideal and if I can go back, I probably wouldn't have been on board with signing them, but they have had success. I'm not sure I pin this on them. There is so much wrong with this team. The Giants weren't going to compete next year anyway so it's really not that big of a deal and it's not going to prevent us from signing our FA's either.

I can't explain it, it's just an implosion from the inside.
The new GM  
RobCarpenter : 12/11/2017 1:18 pm : link
needs to take the long view for this team. That means creating cap space to keep the top young talent (OBJ, Collins) by jettisoning bad contracts as much as possible.

New GM should ask JPP and OV to take pay cuts, and restructure Eli. Eli takes up far too much of the cap right now as well. If JPP and OV don't take the pay cuts then send them packing and eat the dead cap space.

I don't see the team being competitive in 2018, GM needs to think about being competitive in 2019 and beyond.
RE: Well, unlike you,  
Go Terps : 12/11/2017 3:05 pm : link
In comment 13735630 Keith said:
Quote:
The Giants weren't going to compete next year anyway so it's really not that big of a deal and it's not going to prevent us from signing our FA's either.


Wait...you and everyone else had the Giants competing this year and next.

These guys and their contracts ARE part of the reason we're not competing. How could someone not get that?

Back to the Corner