NFT: 12/12: Lakers (10-15) vs Knicks (13-13) 7PM

In comment 13737622 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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that Garnett played, and with all the ways he made teammates better, why did he have an abysmal playoff track record until he joined a "super team" in Boston?

Also, Melo had the opportunity to join teams with talent. Instead he chose to gut the Knicks and resign with them because of the money. You see what he's doing out in OKC with more talent? Still losing.

that Melo wouldn't benefit from good PG play? The only times he had good point guards were earlier in his career in Denver. HE had a few years of Andre Miller and Chauncey Billups and Melo was an All-NBA player.

In comment 13737638 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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that Melo wouldn't benefit from good PG play? The only times he had good point guards were earlier in his career in Denver. HE had a few years of Andre Miller and Chauncey Billups and Melo was an All-NBA player.

Wanna know Melos best PG? Jeremy Lin who created his career off of Linsanity when Melo was conveniently injured and on the bench. Wanna know when Linsanity died? When Melo came back.

I'm not comparing Melo to Garnett as players. I'm illustrating that the notion that Melo's lack of playoff success prevents him from being a superstar would mean that Garnett wasn't a superstar until he got to Boston and teamed up with other stars.

You can't have it both ways.

In comment 13737607 Pep22 said:

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he was a tremendous scorer at times who never cared about developing his game beyond the one thing he did well and for several years now, he's been too slow/apathetic to run the court and has never defended or shared the ball

Go look at the nuggets record before melo got there and then tell me he never made anyone better..

In comment 13737638 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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that Melo wouldn't benefit from good PG play? The only times he had good point guards were earlier in his career in Denver. HE had a few years of Andre Miller and Chauncey Billups and Melo was an All-NBA player.

again...because he's a stationary player (doesn't cut to the hoop, isn't active running people into screens, doesn't get out in the transition game unless he's a trail option)

In comment 13737641 LawrenceTaylor56 said:

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In comment 13737638 PaulBlakeTSU said: Quote: that Melo wouldn't benefit from good PG play? The only times he had good point guards were earlier in his career in Denver. HE had a few years of Andre Miller and Chauncey Billups and Melo was an All-NBA player. Wanna know Melos best PG? Jeremy Lin who created his career off of Linsanity when Melo was conveniently injured and on the bench. Wanna know when Linsanity died? When Melo came back.

Insanity died because Jeremy Lin is a mediocre player..

And stop rewriting history, melo had a much better stretch and better record than linsanity

In comment 13737642 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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I'm not comparing Melo to Garnett as players. I'm illustrating that the notion that Melo's lack of playoff success prevents him from being a superstar would mean that Garnett wasn't a superstar until he got to Boston and teamed up with other stars. You can't have it both ways.

I said Melo was an elite scorer who didn't play defense.. on top of that never really got out of the first round. Garnett played defense, won awards, and an NBA MVP. He was a superstar.

In comment 13737624 Pep22 said:

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In comment 13737603 PaulBlakeTSU said: Quote: got to play in Thibs's scheme and got to join up with Pierce, Allen, and Rondo otherwise people would never call him a superstar either. Is Anthony Davis a superstar? He's been in the league for six seasons and has yet to win a playoff GAME! Look at the point guards he played with in NY. It's arguably the worst collection of PG play over a six year period in recent NBA history. >> while its true those PGs were bad, Melo is not a guy that benefits from good PG play. Because he doesn't run the court or move off the ball, he doesn't get the easy buckets most get when playing with a facilitating PG. Melo's buckets generally come from ISO play. You can see it now, he's with a guy that racks up assists very well, but Melo's (efficiency #s and PPG) numbers are down. Plus, as one would expect, his new team is worse for having him and his old team is better for discarding him.

You are lost..

You do realize that George Karl ran uptempo system right?

died because Jeremy Lin is nothing special. That two week stretch was as exciting as any time in recent memory for the Knicks. But over 8 seasons, Lin has played for 6 different franchises has done nothing more than play like a below-average starting guard in the league.

In comment 13737655 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 13737624 Pep22 said: Quote: In comment 13737603 PaulBlakeTSU said: Quote: got to play in Thibs's scheme and got to join up with Pierce, Allen, and Rondo otherwise people would never call him a superstar either. Is Anthony Davis a superstar? He's been in the league for six seasons and has yet to win a playoff GAME! Look at the point guards he played with in NY. It's arguably the worst collection of PG play over a six year period in recent NBA history. >> while its true those PGs were bad, Melo is not a guy that benefits from good PG play. Because he doesn't run the court or move off the ball, he doesn't get the easy buckets most get when playing with a facilitating PG. Melo's buckets generally come from ISO play. You can see it now, he's with a guy that racks up assists very well, but Melo's (efficiency #s and PPG) numbers are down. Plus, as one would expect, his new team is worse for having him and his old team is better for discarding him. You are lost.. You do realize that George Karl ran uptempo system right?

That was what, 8 years ago?

This is the same George Karl that ripped Melo for the various reasons why he's a coach/team killer, right?

elite scorers who don't play defense are still superstars if they are among the best players in the league.

Melo's defense was based on effort and it's harder to play defense when he had to carry the offensive load for the Knicks every game.

And if you (and mostly Pep) are criticizing a lack of playoff success, and yet other superstars who did play defense had the same problems in the playoffs, then apparently the isolated ability of playing defense didn't matter in the grand scheme of winning.

a by product of who he is as a player

Melo plays for one thing - his scoring average. He's never cared enough about winning to do much beyond that. He is one of the best examples of a lazy/selfish; all sizzle, no steak player.

Deleting him from the roster (along w/ Phil, Rose) is the primary reason why the NYK are now a functional, watchable, respectable tea,

He's a good player who gets hurt a lot. I don't think a good PG helps Melo a ton because he doesn't move at all without the ball. He's not great running the floor either. Melo was at his best when he got the ball in the low block and he attacked the rim. A good PG doesn't really help with that. Melo is the kind of player that needs a team built around his weaknesses.

KG vs Melo

CP3 vs Melo

Harden vs Melo

Durant vs Melo

Melo doesn’t get one nod.

In comment 13737704 LawrenceTaylor56 said:

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KG vs Melo CP3 vs Melo Harden vs Melo Durant vs Melo Melo doesn’t get one nod.

you can add a lot of guys to a "better than Melo" list...it still doesn't make your assessment of his career any less inaccurate.

In comment 13737696 Keith said:

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He's a good player who gets hurt a lot. I don't think a good PG helps Melo a ton because he doesn't move at all without the ball. He's not great running the floor either. Melo was at his best when he got the ball in the low block and he attacked the rim. A good PG doesn't really help with that. Melo is the kind of player that needs a team built around his weaknesses.

a good PG doesn't help him? low block? holy fuck this is a pile of nonsense.

Besides being an elite scorer?

In comment 13737704 LawrenceTaylor56 said:

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KG vs Melo CP3 vs Melo Harden vs Melo Durant vs Melo Melo doesn’t get one nod.

James Harden hasn't even attempted to play defense since his last court appearance for assault. By everything that was written on this thread, how can he be a superstar?

In comment 13737724 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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In comment 13737704 LawrenceTaylor56 said: Quote: KG vs Melo CP3 vs Melo Harden vs Melo Durant vs Melo Melo doesn’t get one nod. James Harden hasn't even attempted to play defense since his last court appearance for assault. By everything that was written on this thread, how can he be a superstar?

Harden averaged a double double last year. Leading the league in APG with 11.2. Both elite scorers, but Harden facilitates and moves without the ball.

any more without the ball. And as a guard who was asked to run the offense, I would hope that Harden could move the ball.

They play different positions.

But again, why is Harden's lack of defense irrelevant here?

Kevin Durant wasn't much of a ball "facilitator" before he decided to join the Warriors. He and Russ played a lot of iso basketball.

I don't remember anyone ever writing home about Dirk's defense or about how much he was running the floor and facilitating, either.

There are many ways to be a superstar.

any more without the Ball than Melo, it should say.

he needs to be in 10x better shape than when he was younger and Melo went in the other direction. He was spry as a young player, but when he came to the Knicks, he looked lazy and slow.

last 100 games or so is averaging

30 and 10

52% shooting
gets to the line 10x per night

has been the best player on a top 3 team in the league

Melo has never come close to that

Harden has been criticized in his career for being out of shape and for not playing defense, which seemed to be cornerstones of a superstar for you.

Most basketball players have flaws. Even the superstars.

I've lost interest in this debate. If you don't think Melo will make the Hall of Fame, then I'm not sure what you've been watching all these years. He is a lock.

but I prefer guys that make their teams better, not worse

in my mind, he wasted his career chasing scoring averages and not wins and his universal reputation for that is well earned

No Clyde tonight?

In comment 13738115 LawrenceTaylor56 said:

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No Clyde tonight?

it's ESPN, and they are insufferable. A "mute" candidate for sure.

Should be a fun game. Lakers destroyed the Knicks last year at the Garden.

.

In comment 13738120 Del Shofner said:

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In comment 13738115 LawrenceTaylor56 said: Quote: No Clyde tonight? it's ESPN, and they are insufferable. A "mute" candidate for sure.

Ah. That’s right. Yeah Mark Jackson. Blah. Thanks.

I loved the superstar, HOF bound, generational talent of Melo butim still a little scorned from his departure. Hate to muddy up a game thread this Melo love-fest.

Let’s go boys! We need to buck up for another generational talent...Bonzo Ball!

let's go

In comment 13737713 LawrenceTaylor56 said:

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Besides being an elite scorer?

An elite scorer who grabbed rebounds. The guy was great at his peak. Even if he wasn't a good defender. You're too close to melo as a Knicks fan. Little objectivity.

College champion, multi-time olympic champion and fantastic international player, and a top level NBA player for a very long time. It's not even a discussion unless you're just not familiar with the basketball HOF's selection process. It would be extremely difficult to make the argument that he shouldn't get in.

I said he was an all-star player and will make the HOF. Superstar is subjective and just my opinion.

Decent first quarter. Down 4.

In comment 13738150 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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College champion, multi-time olympic champion and fantastic international player, and a top level NBA player for a very long time. It's not even a discussion unless you're just not familiar with the basketball HOF's selection process. It would be extremely difficult to make the argument that he shouldn't get in.

Yes - It's the basketball hall of fame, not the "NBA" hall of fame. Unlike Canton, which is the "pro football" hall of fame. Cooperstown falls somewhere in the middle.

Earl Strom is in the basketball hall of fame. (Just sayin' ...)

And still not closing out on 3’s

so far. Completely outworked.

all over.

passes. Lame.

Clarkson is such a better player

players.

is so damn good

In comment 13738220 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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is so damn good

I like how he is not forcing much tonight, past few games he was forcing shots

Christ

sucks

Which teams would want courtney lee. Would a deal to Detroit for Stanley Johnson and to match contracts either ish smith or boban, both come off the books next year so frees up cap space one year earlier than lees deal, Johnson has been abysmal offensively, but apparently a very good defender. I haven't seen him play much at all so I have no idea if there is any hope for him offensively. Maybe Detroit throws in a 2nd rounder.

Orlando for hezonja and Mack. Again macks deal ends after next year so a year earlier than lee. Maybe a second rounder also.

Cleveland for frye Calderon and a protected first or shump and a protected 1st

Any other ideas I don't think we can expect much more than those type of deals for lee

is insufferable. His son makes a shot and makes it all about himself.

But in spurts he brings some scoring punch off the bench that this team severely lacks