I think he'll be a bit of a project at the next level. Tremendous athlete with a very good arm, but accuracy downfield is going to be an issue. Tremendous upside, but not as ready to play as Rosen or Darnold.
does the fact that NO QB with the profile of Lamar Jackson Â
but there are more warts to his game as a QB than 2 or three guys ahead of him. He's been a three year starter at Louisville, and I'm just not certain how well he can read defenses, or get off of his first read without taking off. That will be for the scouts to determine, but as a pocket passer in the NFL, I'm sure teams are going to need to see more in order to use the #1 or #2 pick on Jackson.
Add to that he's going to be using his legs a lot, and you absolutely have to worry about injuries.
but we'd need a coach that could tailor a game plan around his strengths, while keeping him as safe as possible. Trying to make him into an old-school pocket passer would be a mistake, but so would running him into the ground a la RGIII. Doubtful we hire that kind of staff. It'd be a complete culture change for the Giants, and I see 0% chance of it happening.
Still the most exciting QB in this class for my money. He can throw the football. A lot of posters are getting stuck on the scrambling QB thing and think he's just going to be running wild on every other play like RG3.
Jackson is immensely talented and he's put up numbers against some pretty good defenses.
Perfect scenario for me would be moving down a few spots if we can find a taker, drafting Jackson and picking up an extra couple picks in the process.
RE: RE: does the fact that NO QB with the profile of Lamar Jackson Â
but we'd need a coach that could tailor a game plan around his strengths, while keeping him as safe as possible. Trying to make him into an old-school pocket passer would be a mistake, but so would running him into the ground a la RGIII. Doubtful we hire that kind of staff. It'd be a complete culture change for the Giants, and I see 0% chance of it happening.
I think the way to handle any QB situation is to have two backups with similar skills to the starter. That was the enormous organizational error Washington made when they took Cousins in the same draft as RGIII. Why didn't they take Wilson instead?
Whomever takes Jackson would do well to draft another mobile QB or two over the next couple drafts, and/or sign a mobile FA QB.
Still the most exciting QB in this class for my money. He can throw the football. A lot of posters are getting stuck on the scrambling QB thing and think he's just going to be running wild on every other play like RG3.
Jackson is immensely talented and he's put up numbers against some pretty good defenses.
Perfect scenario for me would be moving down a few spots if we can find a taker, drafting Jackson and picking up an extra couple picks in the process.
Agreed. He has to be coached out of running often and just be a threat of taking off.
Still the most exciting QB in this class for my money. He can throw the football. A lot of posters are getting stuck on the scrambling QB thing and think he's just going to be running wild on every other play like RG3.
Jackson is immensely talented and he's put up numbers against some pretty good defenses.
Perfect scenario for me would be moving down a few spots if we can find a taker, drafting Jackson and picking up an extra couple picks in the process.
If you ever have such a vindication for a player, trading down is not the answer. You can’t risk another team trading up and stealing the player. If the Giants like Jackson, take him number 2.
I don't agree. I wouldn't want to take the Lamar Jackson I'm seeing now and try to make him something else. It's a common mistake made with mobile QBs. If you draft Jackson, it has to be so he can be the player he is now at Louisville. Trying to make him more of a conventional QB is the same as trying to make Eli Manning or Joe Flacco a read option QB...it doesn't make sense.
Whoever drafts Jackson should do two things:
1. Teach him to slide. It sounds silly, but I mean really coach him on it. I'd have drills set up just to teach him when and how to properly slide.
2. Back him up with two mobile QBs. College football is bursting with athletic read option QBs so finding them at little cost should be easy.
Still the most exciting QB in this class for my money. He can throw the football. A lot of posters are getting stuck on the scrambling QB thing and think he's just going to be running wild on every other play like RG3.
Jackson is immensely talented and he's put up numbers against some pretty good defenses.
Perfect scenario for me would be moving down a few spots if we can find a taker, drafting Jackson and picking up an extra couple picks in the process.
If you ever have such a vindication for a player, trading down is not the answer. You can’t risk another team trading up and stealing the player. If the Giants like Jackson, take him number 2.
There are a lot of factors involved.. who you trade with, how far you move down, who is in front of you, etc.
The board is going to change a lot between now and April as well. A savvy GM could probably find a way to pull it off but again, there's no way of knowing now how things will unfold then.
If I was worried about him getting snaked, I'd just draft him where we were - but it's possible there will be an opportunity to add an asset or two. Especially if the Giants feel Jackson and another QB are close and decide they'd be happy with either.
I don't agree. I wouldn't want to take the Lamar Jackson I'm seeing now and try to make him something else. It's a common mistake made with mobile QBs. If you draft Jackson, it has to be so he can be the player he is now at Louisville. Trying to make him more of a conventional QB is the same as trying to make Eli Manning or Joe Flacco a read option QB...it doesn't make sense.
Whoever drafts Jackson should do two things:
1. Teach him to slide. It sounds silly, but I mean really coach him on it. I'd have drills set up just to teach him when and how to properly slide.
2. Back him up with two mobile QBs. College football is bursting with athletic read option QBs so finding them at little cost should be easy.
College football has a lot of mobile R/O QB's, but not many of them have the arm to complete passes downfield. Might be tough to find them in a single offseason.
I like your thinking. One of the most important and overlooked Belichick lessons is to invest your limited resources into underappreciated assets. Mobile QB's would seem to be one class of those assets, and it really would likely be easier to have 3 good (not great) mobile QB's than it would be to have 1 elite QB. On top of that, your system would be more resilient to injury if built that way.
It sounds good in theory, but most of the mobile QB's you'll find won't be able to make the same throws Jackson can.
I wouldn't force myself into a QB type - a good offensive coach will be able to utilize a mobile QB and still be able to run an offense with a guy who is more of a pocket passer if that QB gets hurt. Last thing I'd want to do is jam myself in a hole where I can only use one type of QB.
I'd prefer to have a backup who can make NFL throws and has a little bit of mobility over a guy who is entirely reliant on his legs.
And guys that overly rely on legs just don't work in the NFL
I don't know if I'd agree with bad thrower. Perfect, no but he's improved every year in college. He's had moments where he's dropped absolute dimes. A lot of his throwing might just be mechanical fixes.
I'd take a chance on Jackson over Allen 10 times out of 10. That said I'd take neither at 2.
Sy would obviously be more qualified to make these determinations than I.... I don't see "bad thrower" with Jackson. I see a guy who has all the ability but needs to tighten up mechanics and improve accuracy.
I've seen the guy flick a lot of dimes 30-40 yards downfield into coverage. Several really impressive throws.
Needs improvement... just not sure I agree with characterizing him as "bad"
Yes. But the amount of negative throws he has, especially on deep balls and intermediate throws in to traffic is alarming. There are 8-9 QBs in this class I have graded above him when it comes to quality passing. Again, it has so much more to do with skill than how fast he can throw the ball.
The risk with him is so big...if he can go back to school and show noted improvement, then we can talk top 5.
I felt like I read a lot of those things about Watson, too, though.
I.e...
Quote:
WEAKNESSES Frame is a little more slender than teams typically like. Accuracy runs hot and cold. Tends to over-stride on drive throws, causing release point to drop and balls to sail. Ball placement on crossing routes and slants needs to improve. Will leave throws behind intended targets. Deep-ball accuracy has been scatter-shot over his last two seasons at Clemson, with throws sailing well beyond his target. Design of offense limited his need to make full-field reads. Has to become adept at working through progressions and playing chess against safeties. Needs to let routes develop rather than rushing anticipatory throws. Too many interceptions due to lack of vision, placement or decision-making. Threw interception vs. Troy against bracketed coverage he didn't see. Baited into bad-decision interceptions twice by Florida State cornerbacks. Has issues improvising away from initial, pre-snap plan even when pathway to target becomes muddy. Shotgun quarterback who, like Jared Goff, could take time getting used to huddling, pace of play-calling and drop-backs from under center.
The sample wasn't huge, but the guy was fantastic when he played. He completely transformed the HOU offense.
I felt like I read a lot of those things about Watson, too, though.
I.e...
Quote:
WEAKNESSES Frame is a little more slender than teams typically like. Accuracy runs hot and cold. Tends to over-stride on drive throws, causing release point to drop and balls to sail. Ball placement on crossing routes and slants needs to improve. Will leave throws behind intended targets. Deep-ball accuracy has been scatter-shot over his last two seasons at Clemson, with throws sailing well beyond his target. Design of offense limited his need to make full-field reads. Has to become adept at working through progressions and playing chess against safeties. Needs to let routes develop rather than rushing anticipatory throws. Too many interceptions due to lack of vision, placement or decision-making. Threw interception vs. Troy against bracketed coverage he didn't see. Baited into bad-decision interceptions twice by Florida State cornerbacks. Has issues improvising away from initial, pre-snap plan even when pathway to target becomes muddy. Shotgun quarterback who, like Jared Goff, could take time getting used to huddling, pace of play-calling and drop-backs from under center.
The sample wasn't huge, but the guy was fantastic when he played. He completely transformed the HOU offense.
I think what’s forgotten about Jackson is how truly bad his offensive line and WRs were. Couple that with facing elite talent on basically a weakly basis.
But I don't view Allen or Jackson as first round QBs, but for different reasons.
Allen simply is well behind the curve as a game manager. Yes, he can throw the ball out of the stadium. So could Kyle Boller. So could Jeff George. He has never picked his team up on his shoulders and carried them for any stretch of games. He's far too frequently plays like a poor QB.
Jackson plays in a simple offense. He's exciting and can break a defense with his legs. He's done that plenty in his career and it is somewhat enticing to think about what a player like that can do for our offense. He does play in a simplistic offense, as Sy mentioned. He isn't tasked with doing a lot of pre snap cerebral work. I'm not sure that style of game works at the next level. So either: a) you continue to develop the his pocket skills which will invariably negate some of his list over, or b) let him create within a system which allows for him to improvise regularly. I'm either case, I don't think Jackson is as electric as Mike Vick was when he came out.
I think we're left with a choice of Darnold or Rosen and we are going to be left with a very good QB in either case.
Yes. But the amount of negative throws he has, especially on deep balls and intermediate throws in to traffic is alarming. There are 8-9 QBs in this class I have graded above him when it comes to quality passing. Again, it has so much more to do with skill than how fast he can throw the ball.
The risk with him is so big...if he can go back to school and show noted improvement, then we can talk top 5.
I like LJ, but you also can't overlook the Petrino Effect. He does a very good job getting his skill players in space to make easy throws. So that tends to skew some - not all - of what you see from his trigger men...
Definitely a good prospect. More athletic than Msyfield with a stronger arm. He just faces the same questions as other mobile college QBs about pocket presence and reading defenses in the NFL. I’d place him about even with BM and behind JR and SD with Josh Allen as the wildcard, who has better measurables than all of them but has questions about his accuracy
It’s going to be fun following the twists and turns of this QBs race
But I don't view Allen or Jackson as first round QBs, but for different reasons.
Allen simply is well behind the curve as a game manager. Yes, he can throw the ball out of the stadium. So could Kyle Boller. So could Jeff George. He has never picked his team up on his shoulders and carried them for any stretch of games. He's far too frequently plays like a poor QB.
What Allen was behind was a patchwork OL; and losing key skill players from the year prior.
Can you really say with a straight face that Allen couldn't light it up behind Oklahoma's offense? Bama's? Georgia? Auburn? Etc...
he'll make a great running back. Although is accuracy improved a little, he is nowhere near NFL ready. He is a freak athlete and should play HB in NFL.
I don't want to make a thread on this (and don't mean to hi-jack this one), but is Josh Allen a possibility at #2? Where is he expected to go?
I think he is the most overrated QB who gets talked up the most. He does have a strong arm, but there is a lot more missing from his game than positive attributes. He's a pro style QB, but his mechanics aren't so pretty to look at.
I can't remember if it was Gil Brandt, or someone else who's pretty reputable, who mentioned any comparison of Josh Allen to Carson Wentz is a huge insult to Wentz.
But I don't view Allen or Jackson as first round QBs, but for different reasons.
Allen simply is well behind the curve as a game manager. Yes, he can throw the ball out of the stadium. So could Kyle Boller. So could Jeff George. He has never picked his team up on his shoulders and carried them for any stretch of games. He's far too frequently plays like a poor QB.
What Allen was behind was a patchwork OL; and losing key skill players from the year prior.
Can you really say with a straight face that Allen couldn't light it up behind Oklahoma's offense? Bama's? Georgia? Auburn? Etc...
He’s also facing inferior competition. If Allen was an elite QB prospect his numbers and film should show no matter who he lost. He makes a lot of bad decisions on the field.
he'll make a great running back. Although is accuracy improved a little, he is nowhere near NFL ready. He is a freak athlete and should play HB in NFL.
His completion percentage is on par with a lot of former first round QBs
His completion percentage is on par with a lot of former first round QBs
Just for context, Tim Tebow completed 70% of his passes at Florida. Does anyone want to argue that he was accurate?
You can't compare college completion %'s with the NFL. Spread offenses are one-read, one-route offenses that most college defenses have trouble closing on. The NFL is so much faster, and windows are much smaller.
His completion percentage is on par with a lot of former first round QBs
Just for context, Tim Tebow completed 70% of his passes at Florida. Does anyone want to argue that he was accurate?
You can't compare college completion %'s with the NFL. Spread offenses are one-read, one-route offenses that most college defenses have trouble closing on. The NFL is so much faster, and windows are much smaller.
Petrinos offense is closer to a pro style than a spread. There’s plenty of multi read plays in Louisville’s offensive scheme.
I’m not comparing them to the NFL I’m comparing them to other QBs coming out of college
But I don't view Allen or Jackson as first round QBs, but for different reasons.
Allen simply is well behind the curve as a game manager. Yes, he can throw the ball out of the stadium. So could Kyle Boller. So could Jeff George. He has never picked his team up on his shoulders and carried them for any stretch of games. He's far too frequently plays like a poor QB.
What Allen was behind was a patchwork OL; and losing key skill players from the year prior.
Can you really say with a straight face that Allen couldn't light it up behind Oklahoma's offense? Bama's? Georgia? Auburn? Etc...
He’s also facing inferior competition. If Allen was an elite QB prospect his numbers and film should show no matter who he lost. He makes a lot of bad decisions on the field.
He’s led two Wyoming squads to bowl games, which I believe is the first time that his been done in Laramie in quite a long time. Wyoming has brutal talent even relative to the MWC; they’ve regularly started true freshmen in the trenches that received no offers from other programs.
trying to not say you don't think an athletic black QB is smart enough to be picked that high.
Don't put words in my mouth.
I said Jackson's understanding of what will be expected of him at the next level is rudimentary. Underdeveloped. It isn't because he's black. It's because he hasn't been asked to do it in college. I've said the same thing of Allen and Webb. They're underdeveloped and projects too.
But I don't view Allen or Jackson as first round QBs, but for different reasons.
Allen simply is well behind the curve as a game manager. Yes, he can throw the ball out of the stadium. So could Kyle Boller. So could Jeff George. He has never picked his team up on his shoulders and carried them for any stretch of games. He's far too frequently plays like a poor QB.
What Allen was behind was a patchwork OL; and losing key skill players from the year prior.
Can you really say with a straight face that Allen couldn't light it up behind Oklahoma's offense? Bama's? Georgia? Auburn? Etc...
He’s also facing inferior competition. If Allen was an elite QB prospect his numbers and film should show no matter who he lost. He makes a lot of bad decisions on the field.
He’s led two Wyoming squads to bowl games, which I believe is the first time that his been done in Laramie in quite a long time. Wyoming has brutal talent even relative to the MWC; they’ve regularly started true freshmen in the trenches that received no offers from other programs.
Watch the below and tell me that Allen isn’t hampered by atrocious talent Allen vs Iowa - ( New Window )
Why doesn’t Jackson get the same excuses? Relative to the teams he was playing Louisville’s talent level on offense was poor. Him and maybe one of the WRs are NFL caliber talent, going against defenses that are going to put multiple Day one and day two picks into the nfl the next few years.
You can also watch Allen’s games and see him make atrocious decisions at times. There’s no sign of an elite QB bringing up the guys around him. Elite tools? Sure. But not a elite QB traits.
But I don't view Allen or Jackson as first round QBs, but for different reasons.
Allen simply is well behind the curve as a game manager. Yes, he can throw the ball out of the stadium. So could Kyle Boller. So could Jeff George. He has never picked his team up on his shoulders and carried them for any stretch of games. He's far too frequently plays like a poor QB.
What Allen was behind was a patchwork OL; and losing key skill players from the year prior.
Can you really say with a straight face that Allen couldn't light it up behind Oklahoma's offense? Bama's? Georgia? Auburn? Etc...
He isn't at Bama and he isn't in Auburn. His stats and tape are what they are. Dynamic arm. Nice size and mobility. Long stretches where he looks like he just walked into the game off the street.
But I don't view Allen or Jackson as first round QBs, but for different reasons.
Allen simply is well behind the curve as a game manager. Yes, he can throw the ball out of the stadium. So could Kyle Boller. So could Jeff George. He has never picked his team up on his shoulders and carried them for any stretch of games. He's far too frequently plays like a poor QB.
What Allen was behind was a patchwork OL; and losing key skill players from the year prior.
Can you really say with a straight face that Allen couldn't light it up behind Oklahoma's offense? Bama's? Georgia? Auburn? Etc...
He’s also facing inferior competition. If Allen was an elite QB prospect his numbers and film should show no matter who he lost. He makes a lot of bad decisions on the field.
He’s led two Wyoming squads to bowl games, which I believe is the first time that his been done in Laramie in quite a long time. Wyoming has brutal talent even relative to the MWC; they’ve regularly started true freshmen in the trenches that received no offers from other programs.
Watch the below and tell me that Allen isn’t hampered by atrocious talent Allen vs Iowa - ( New Window )
Who doesn't make a bowl game these days?
Lots of first round prospects have been surrounded by poor talent and have still stood out as elite prospects. Still produced in HS and college.
Who did Eli have in Ole Miss? Who did Odell have throwing him the ball at LSU? Bleu chip prospects find a way to produce. They tilt the game. They consistently win their battles and make game changing plays against top competition.
But I don't view Allen or Jackson as first round QBs, but for different reasons.
Allen simply is well behind the curve as a game manager. Yes, he can throw the ball out of the stadium. So could Kyle Boller. So could Jeff George. He has never picked his team up on his shoulders and carried them for any stretch of games. He's far too frequently plays like a poor QB.
What Allen was behind was a patchwork OL; and losing key skill players from the year prior.
Can you really say with a straight face that Allen couldn't light it up behind Oklahoma's offense? Bama's? Georgia? Auburn? Etc...
He’s also facing inferior competition. If Allen was an elite QB prospect his numbers and film should show no matter who he lost. He makes a lot of bad decisions on the field.
He’s led two Wyoming squads to bowl games, which I believe is the first time that his been done in Laramie in quite a long time. Wyoming has brutal talent even relative to the MWC; they’ve regularly started true freshmen in the trenches that received no offers from other programs.
Watch the below and tell me that Allen isn’t hampered by atrocious talent Allen vs Iowa - ( New Window )
Who doesn't make a bowl game these days?
Lots of first round prospects have been surrounded by poor talent and have still stood out as elite prospects. Still produced in HS and college.
Who did Eli have in Ole Miss? Who did Odell have throwing him the ball at LSU? Bleu chip prospects find a way to produce. They tilt the game. They consistently win their battles and make game changing plays against top competition.
Allen hasn't done that. Ever.
Wyoming has been rolled this year and their offense anemic, in game in which they were favored, while Allen has been injured. While Allen was healthy the Cowboys were challenging for the conference. The delta in play from the quarterback position was clearly the difference.
Eli had Chris Collins and Michael “The Most Exciting Player in CFB” Espy. Neither did much outside of Oxford but they were awesome to watch at the time.
OBJ had Mettenberger as his QB, meaning that position was hardly devoid of talent (relative to the collegiate level).
The immortal Zach Mettenberger. One part of the dreaded Locker/Whitehurst/Mettenberger triumvirate. His negative TD/INT ratio and 2300 career passing yards are the stuff of legend.
The immortal Zach Mettenberger. One part of the dreaded Locker/Whitehurst/Mettenberger triumvirate. His negative TD/INT ratio and 2300 career passing yards are the stuff of legend.
Don’t throw shade at Clipboard Jesus (Whitehurst)!
thought this article was helpful in part, figured I'd share this part of it here.
How to Draft a QB, Part 5 - ( New Window )
This is why Darnold or Rosen and heck even Rudolph are the better prospects from the pro game. I like Jackson, Mayfield and Allen but throwing the ball should be options 1,2 &3, then run if you can.
Mettenberger wasn't a plus for Odell in college. Â
From pointing out your weirdo obsession on a thread where I was discussing a completely different player?
You're right. It's fucking weird and I become more amazed daily at just how obsessed you actually are with this 25 year old WR.
It's clear what your insinuation was - please explain how Landry or Beckham have anything to do with the current state of their teams while they're still on rookie deals. You clearly think they're holding their respective teams back somehow, otherwise you wouldn't have made the comment.
I'd love to hear the reasoning behind it. It amuses me.
RE: RE: Mettenberger wasn't a plus for Odell in college. Â
From pointing out your weirdo obsession on a thread where I was discussing a completely different player?
You're right. It's fucking weird and I become more amazed daily at just how obsessed you actually are with this 25 year old WR.
It's clear what your insinuation was - please explain how Landry or Beckham have anything to do with the current state of their teams while they're still on rookie deals. You clearly think they're holding their respective teams back somehow, otherwise you wouldn't have made the comment.
I'd love to hear the reasoning behind it. It amuses me.
Is it even worth it at this point? He's just going to yammer. Let miserable people lie.
Still the most exciting QB in this class for my money. He can throw the football. A lot of posters are getting stuck on the scrambling QB thing and think he's just going to be running wild on every other play like RG3.
Jackson is immensely talented and he's put up numbers against some pretty good defenses.
Perfect scenario for me would be moving down a few spots if we can find a taker, drafting Jackson and picking up an extra couple picks in the process.
If you ever have such a vindication for a player, trading down is not the answer. You can’t risk another team trading up and stealing the player. If the Giants like Jackson, take him number 2.
There are a lot of factors involved.. who you trade with, how far you move down, who is in front of you, etc.
The board is going to change a lot between now and April as well. A savvy GM could probably find a way to pull it off but again, there's no way of knowing now how things will unfold then.
If I was worried about him getting snaked, I'd just draft him where we were - but it's possible there will be an opportunity to add an asset or two. Especially if the Giants feel Jackson and another QB are close and decide they'd be happy with either.
trading down is a scary proposition, especially when the guy you traded down for gets taken before you pick.
Add to that he's going to be using his legs a lot, and you absolutely have to worry about injuries.
Michael Vick? His career was derailed by the dogfighting scandal, not injury. As long as Lamar can stay away from the dog rings, he has a chance.
go watch 5 minutes of his throws and you can see he has a big time NFL arm
Jackson is immensely talented and he's put up numbers against some pretty good defenses.
Perfect scenario for me would be moving down a few spots if we can find a taker, drafting Jackson and picking up an extra couple picks in the process.
Quote:
has ever succeeded in the NFL? He's a great player no doubt, but what happens when that ACL pops?
Michael Vick? His career was derailed by the dogfighting scandal, not injury. As long as Lamar can stay away from the dog rings, he has a chance.
Point of clarification: Vick only played 16 games once in his career. He was also effectively done in the league by age 32.
I think the way to handle any QB situation is to have two backups with similar skills to the starter. That was the enormous organizational error Washington made when they took Cousins in the same draft as RGIII. Why didn't they take Wilson instead?
Whomever takes Jackson would do well to draft another mobile QB or two over the next couple drafts, and/or sign a mobile FA QB.
Jackson is immensely talented and he's put up numbers against some pretty good defenses.
Perfect scenario for me would be moving down a few spots if we can find a taker, drafting Jackson and picking up an extra couple picks in the process.
Agreed. He has to be coached out of running often and just be a threat of taking off.
Jackson is immensely talented and he's put up numbers against some pretty good defenses.
Perfect scenario for me would be moving down a few spots if we can find a taker, drafting Jackson and picking up an extra couple picks in the process.
If you ever have such a vindication for a player, trading down is not the answer. You can’t risk another team trading up and stealing the player. If the Giants like Jackson, take him number 2.
Whoever drafts Jackson should do two things:
1. Teach him to slide. It sounds silly, but I mean really coach him on it. I'd have drills set up just to teach him when and how to properly slide.
2. Back him up with two mobile QBs. College football is bursting with athletic read option QBs so finding them at little cost should be easy.
Quote:
Still the most exciting QB in this class for my money. He can throw the football. A lot of posters are getting stuck on the scrambling QB thing and think he's just going to be running wild on every other play like RG3.
Jackson is immensely talented and he's put up numbers against some pretty good defenses.
Perfect scenario for me would be moving down a few spots if we can find a taker, drafting Jackson and picking up an extra couple picks in the process.
If you ever have such a vindication for a player, trading down is not the answer. You can’t risk another team trading up and stealing the player. If the Giants like Jackson, take him number 2.
There are a lot of factors involved.. who you trade with, how far you move down, who is in front of you, etc.
The board is going to change a lot between now and April as well. A savvy GM could probably find a way to pull it off but again, there's no way of knowing now how things will unfold then.
If I was worried about him getting snaked, I'd just draft him where we were - but it's possible there will be an opportunity to add an asset or two. Especially if the Giants feel Jackson and another QB are close and decide they'd be happy with either.
Whoever drafts Jackson should do two things:
1. Teach him to slide. It sounds silly, but I mean really coach him on it. I'd have drills set up just to teach him when and how to properly slide.
2. Back him up with two mobile QBs. College football is bursting with athletic read option QBs so finding them at little cost should be easy.
College football has a lot of mobile R/O QB's, but not many of them have the arm to complete passes downfield. Might be tough to find them in a single offseason.
I like your thinking. One of the most important and overlooked Belichick lessons is to invest your limited resources into underappreciated assets. Mobile QB's would seem to be one class of those assets, and it really would likely be easier to have 3 good (not great) mobile QB's than it would be to have 1 elite QB. On top of that, your system would be more resilient to injury if built that way.
I wouldn't force myself into a QB type - a good offensive coach will be able to utilize a mobile QB and still be able to run an offense with a guy who is more of a pocket passer if that QB gets hurt. Last thing I'd want to do is jam myself in a hole where I can only use one type of QB.
I'd prefer to have a backup who can make NFL throws and has a little bit of mobility over a guy who is entirely reliant on his legs.
I don't know if I'd agree with bad thrower. Perfect, no but he's improved every year in college. He's had moments where he's dropped absolute dimes. A lot of his throwing might just be mechanical fixes.
I'd take a chance on Jackson over Allen 10 times out of 10. That said I'd take neither at 2.
I've seen the guy flick a lot of dimes 30-40 yards downfield into coverage. Several really impressive throws.
Needs improvement... just not sure I agree with characterizing him as "bad"
Then again, the fuck do I know...
The risk with him is so big...if he can go back to school and show noted improvement, then we can talk top 5.
I.e...
The sample wasn't huge, but the guy was fantastic when he played. He completely transformed the HOU offense.
I.e...
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WEAKNESSES Frame is a little more slender than teams typically like. Accuracy runs hot and cold. Tends to over-stride on drive throws, causing release point to drop and balls to sail. Ball placement on crossing routes and slants needs to improve. Will leave throws behind intended targets. Deep-ball accuracy has been scatter-shot over his last two seasons at Clemson, with throws sailing well beyond his target. Design of offense limited his need to make full-field reads. Has to become adept at working through progressions and playing chess against safeties. Needs to let routes develop rather than rushing anticipatory throws. Too many interceptions due to lack of vision, placement or decision-making. Threw interception vs. Troy against bracketed coverage he didn't see. Baited into bad-decision interceptions twice by Florida State cornerbacks. Has issues improvising away from initial, pre-snap plan even when pathway to target becomes muddy. Shotgun quarterback who, like Jared Goff, could take time getting used to huddling, pace of play-calling and drop-backs from under center.
The sample wasn't huge, but the guy was fantastic when he played. He completely transformed the HOU offense.
I think what’s forgotten about Jackson is how truly bad his offensive line and WRs were. Couple that with facing elite talent on basically a weakly basis.
There are a lot of easy throws in that offense, one read, throwing in to space.
The tough throws...where makes multiple reads and has to throw in to windows with defenders on either side, his numbers are poor.
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From a few game tapes I watched, I thought Jackson was a good passer.
There are a lot of easy throws in that offense, one read, throwing in to space.
The tough throws...where makes multiple reads and has to throw in to windows with defenders on either side, his numbers are poor.
and that's the difference between an arm chair scout and a real scout.
Allen simply is well behind the curve as a game manager. Yes, he can throw the ball out of the stadium. So could Kyle Boller. So could Jeff George. He has never picked his team up on his shoulders and carried them for any stretch of games. He's far too frequently plays like a poor QB.
Jackson plays in a simple offense. He's exciting and can break a defense with his legs. He's done that plenty in his career and it is somewhat enticing to think about what a player like that can do for our offense. He does play in a simplistic offense, as Sy mentioned. He isn't tasked with doing a lot of pre snap cerebral work. I'm not sure that style of game works at the next level. So either: a) you continue to develop the his pocket skills which will invariably negate some of his list over, or b) let him create within a system which allows for him to improvise regularly. I'm either case, I don't think Jackson is as electric as Mike Vick was when he came out.
I think we're left with a choice of Darnold or Rosen and we are going to be left with a very good QB in either case.
The risk with him is so big...if he can go back to school and show noted improvement, then we can talk top 5.
I like LJ, but you also can't overlook the Petrino Effect. He does a very good job getting his skill players in space to make easy throws. So that tends to skew some - not all - of what you see from his trigger men...
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From a few game tapes I watched, I thought Jackson was a good passer.
There are a lot of easy throws in that offense, one read, throwing in to space.
The tough throws...where makes multiple reads and has to throw in to windows with defenders on either side, his numbers are poor.
There’s also plenty examples of him making multiple reads with success. This Twitter thread has a bunch of them.
Risky sure, but I don’t think he’s was risky as he’s made out to be and is a much better thrower than he’s made out to be.
Jackson - ( New Window )
It’s going to be fun following the twists and turns of this QBs race
Allen simply is well behind the curve as a game manager. Yes, he can throw the ball out of the stadium. So could Kyle Boller. So could Jeff George. He has never picked his team up on his shoulders and carried them for any stretch of games. He's far too frequently plays like a poor QB.
Can you really say with a straight face that Allen couldn't light it up behind Oklahoma's offense? Bama's? Georgia? Auburn? Etc...
I think he is the most overrated QB who gets talked up the most. He does have a strong arm, but there is a lot more missing from his game than positive attributes. He's a pro style QB, but his mechanics aren't so pretty to look at.
I can't remember if it was Gil Brandt, or someone else who's pretty reputable, who mentioned any comparison of Josh Allen to Carson Wentz is a huge insult to Wentz.
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But I don't view Allen or Jackson as first round QBs, but for different reasons.
Allen simply is well behind the curve as a game manager. Yes, he can throw the ball out of the stadium. So could Kyle Boller. So could Jeff George. He has never picked his team up on his shoulders and carried them for any stretch of games. He's far too frequently plays like a poor QB.
What Allen was behind was a patchwork OL; and losing key skill players from the year prior.
Can you really say with a straight face that Allen couldn't light it up behind Oklahoma's offense? Bama's? Georgia? Auburn? Etc...
He’s also facing inferior competition. If Allen was an elite QB prospect his numbers and film should show no matter who he lost. He makes a lot of bad decisions on the field.
His completion percentage is on par with a lot of former first round QBs
I doubt it. Vick & Bob were athletic and picked high.
Truthfully this thread's been okay unlike the one where someone linked a youtube interview which "proved" his stupidity.
His completion percentage is on par with a lot of former first round QBs
Just for context, Tim Tebow completed 70% of his passes at Florida. Does anyone want to argue that he was accurate?
You can't compare college completion %'s with the NFL. Spread offenses are one-read, one-route offenses that most college defenses have trouble closing on. The NFL is so much faster, and windows are much smaller.
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His completion percentage is on par with a lot of former first round QBs
Just for context, Tim Tebow completed 70% of his passes at Florida. Does anyone want to argue that he was accurate?
You can't compare college completion %'s with the NFL. Spread offenses are one-read, one-route offenses that most college defenses have trouble closing on. The NFL is so much faster, and windows are much smaller.
Petrinos offense is closer to a pro style than a spread. There’s plenty of multi read plays in Louisville’s offensive scheme.
I’m not comparing them to the NFL I’m comparing them to other QBs coming out of college
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In comment 13737702 Modus Operandi said:
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But I don't view Allen or Jackson as first round QBs, but for different reasons.
Allen simply is well behind the curve as a game manager. Yes, he can throw the ball out of the stadium. So could Kyle Boller. So could Jeff George. He has never picked his team up on his shoulders and carried them for any stretch of games. He's far too frequently plays like a poor QB.
What Allen was behind was a patchwork OL; and losing key skill players from the year prior.
Can you really say with a straight face that Allen couldn't light it up behind Oklahoma's offense? Bama's? Georgia? Auburn? Etc...
He’s also facing inferior competition. If Allen was an elite QB prospect his numbers and film should show no matter who he lost. He makes a lot of bad decisions on the field.
Watch the below and tell me that Allen isn’t hampered by atrocious talent
Allen vs Iowa - ( New Window )
Don't put words in my mouth.
I said Jackson's understanding of what will be expected of him at the next level is rudimentary. Underdeveloped. It isn't because he's black. It's because he hasn't been asked to do it in college. I've said the same thing of Allen and Webb. They're underdeveloped and projects too.
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In comment 13737747 bw in dc said:
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In comment 13737702 Modus Operandi said:
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But I don't view Allen or Jackson as first round QBs, but for different reasons.
Allen simply is well behind the curve as a game manager. Yes, he can throw the ball out of the stadium. So could Kyle Boller. So could Jeff George. He has never picked his team up on his shoulders and carried them for any stretch of games. He's far too frequently plays like a poor QB.
What Allen was behind was a patchwork OL; and losing key skill players from the year prior.
Can you really say with a straight face that Allen couldn't light it up behind Oklahoma's offense? Bama's? Georgia? Auburn? Etc...
He’s also facing inferior competition. If Allen was an elite QB prospect his numbers and film should show no matter who he lost. He makes a lot of bad decisions on the field.
He’s led two Wyoming squads to bowl games, which I believe is the first time that his been done in Laramie in quite a long time. Wyoming has brutal talent even relative to the MWC; they’ve regularly started true freshmen in the trenches that received no offers from other programs.
Watch the below and tell me that Allen isn’t hampered by atrocious talent Allen vs Iowa - ( New Window )
Why doesn’t Jackson get the same excuses? Relative to the teams he was playing Louisville’s talent level on offense was poor. Him and maybe one of the WRs are NFL caliber talent, going against defenses that are going to put multiple Day one and day two picks into the nfl the next few years.
You can also watch Allen’s games and see him make atrocious decisions at times. There’s no sign of an elite QB bringing up the guys around him. Elite tools? Sure. But not a elite QB traits.
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But I don't view Allen or Jackson as first round QBs, but for different reasons.
Allen simply is well behind the curve as a game manager. Yes, he can throw the ball out of the stadium. So could Kyle Boller. So could Jeff George. He has never picked his team up on his shoulders and carried them for any stretch of games. He's far too frequently plays like a poor QB.
What Allen was behind was a patchwork OL; and losing key skill players from the year prior.
Can you really say with a straight face that Allen couldn't light it up behind Oklahoma's offense? Bama's? Georgia? Auburn? Etc...
He isn't at Bama and he isn't in Auburn. His stats and tape are what they are. Dynamic arm. Nice size and mobility. Long stretches where he looks like he just walked into the game off the street.
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In comment 13737747 bw in dc said:
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In comment 13737702 Modus Operandi said:
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But I don't view Allen or Jackson as first round QBs, but for different reasons.
Allen simply is well behind the curve as a game manager. Yes, he can throw the ball out of the stadium. So could Kyle Boller. So could Jeff George. He has never picked his team up on his shoulders and carried them for any stretch of games. He's far too frequently plays like a poor QB.
What Allen was behind was a patchwork OL; and losing key skill players from the year prior.
Can you really say with a straight face that Allen couldn't light it up behind Oklahoma's offense? Bama's? Georgia? Auburn? Etc...
He’s also facing inferior competition. If Allen was an elite QB prospect his numbers and film should show no matter who he lost. He makes a lot of bad decisions on the field.
He’s led two Wyoming squads to bowl games, which I believe is the first time that his been done in Laramie in quite a long time. Wyoming has brutal talent even relative to the MWC; they’ve regularly started true freshmen in the trenches that received no offers from other programs.
Watch the below and tell me that Allen isn’t hampered by atrocious talent Allen vs Iowa - ( New Window )
Who doesn't make a bowl game these days?
Lots of first round prospects have been surrounded by poor talent and have still stood out as elite prospects. Still produced in HS and college.
Who did Eli have in Ole Miss? Who did Odell have throwing him the ball at LSU? Bleu chip prospects find a way to produce. They tilt the game. They consistently win their battles and make game changing plays against top competition.
Allen hasn't done that. Ever.
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In comment 13737765 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 13737747 bw in dc said:
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In comment 13737702 Modus Operandi said:
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But I don't view Allen or Jackson as first round QBs, but for different reasons.
Allen simply is well behind the curve as a game manager. Yes, he can throw the ball out of the stadium. So could Kyle Boller. So could Jeff George. He has never picked his team up on his shoulders and carried them for any stretch of games. He's far too frequently plays like a poor QB.
What Allen was behind was a patchwork OL; and losing key skill players from the year prior.
Can you really say with a straight face that Allen couldn't light it up behind Oklahoma's offense? Bama's? Georgia? Auburn? Etc...
He’s also facing inferior competition. If Allen was an elite QB prospect his numbers and film should show no matter who he lost. He makes a lot of bad decisions on the field.
He’s led two Wyoming squads to bowl games, which I believe is the first time that his been done in Laramie in quite a long time. Wyoming has brutal talent even relative to the MWC; they’ve regularly started true freshmen in the trenches that received no offers from other programs.
Watch the below and tell me that Allen isn’t hampered by atrocious talent Allen vs Iowa - ( New Window )
Who doesn't make a bowl game these days?
Lots of first round prospects have been surrounded by poor talent and have still stood out as elite prospects. Still produced in HS and college.
Who did Eli have in Ole Miss? Who did Odell have throwing him the ball at LSU? Bleu chip prospects find a way to produce. They tilt the game. They consistently win their battles and make game changing plays against top competition.
Allen hasn't done that. Ever.
Eli had Chris Collins and Michael “The Most Exciting Player in CFB” Espy. Neither did much outside of Oxford but they were awesome to watch at the time.
OBJ had Mettenberger as his QB, meaning that position was hardly devoid of talent (relative to the collegiate level).
How to Draft a QB, Part 5 - ( New Window )
How to Draft a QB, Part 5 - ( New Window )
This is why Darnold or Rosen and heck even Rudolph are the better prospects from the pro game. I like Jackson, Mayfield and Allen but throwing the ball should be options 1,2 &3, then run if you can.
Their pro teams aren't going anywhere either.
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That LSU team had Jarvis Landry AND Odell Beckham and didn't go anywhere.
Their pro teams aren't going anywhere either.
What does this have to do with either of them?
You really just can't help yourself. It's very odd.
You're right. It's fucking weird and I become more amazed daily at just how obsessed you actually are with this 25 year old WR.
It's clear what your insinuation was - please explain how Landry or Beckham have anything to do with the current state of their teams while they're still on rookie deals. You clearly think they're holding their respective teams back somehow, otherwise you wouldn't have made the comment.
I'd love to hear the reasoning behind it. It amuses me.
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That LSU team had Jarvis Landry AND Odell Beckham and didn't go anywhere.
Their pro teams aren't going anywhere either.
Comical at this point
You're right. It's fucking weird and I become more amazed daily at just how obsessed you actually are with this 25 year old WR.
It's clear what your insinuation was - please explain how Landry or Beckham have anything to do with the current state of their teams while they're still on rookie deals. You clearly think they're holding their respective teams back somehow, otherwise you wouldn't have made the comment.
I'd love to hear the reasoning behind it. It amuses me.
Is it even worth it at this point? He's just going to yammer. Let miserable people lie.
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In comment 13737376 arcarsenal said:
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Still the most exciting QB in this class for my money. He can throw the football. A lot of posters are getting stuck on the scrambling QB thing and think he's just going to be running wild on every other play like RG3.
Jackson is immensely talented and he's put up numbers against some pretty good defenses.
Perfect scenario for me would be moving down a few spots if we can find a taker, drafting Jackson and picking up an extra couple picks in the process.
If you ever have such a vindication for a player, trading down is not the answer. You can’t risk another team trading up and stealing the player. If the Giants like Jackson, take him number 2.
There are a lot of factors involved.. who you trade with, how far you move down, who is in front of you, etc.
The board is going to change a lot between now and April as well. A savvy GM could probably find a way to pull it off but again, there's no way of knowing now how things will unfold then.
If I was worried about him getting snaked, I'd just draft him where we were - but it's possible there will be an opportunity to add an asset or two. Especially if the Giants feel Jackson and another QB are close and decide they'd be happy with either.
trading down is a scary proposition, especially when the guy you traded down for gets taken before you pick.