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Could the Giants be a less ideal landing spot...

Giants_West : 12/12/2017 12:39 pm
for a rookie quarterback this off season? The Giants are lacking all of the things young quarterbacks usually need to be successful in the league.We have without question the worst offensive line and running game situation in the league. Our one star player on offense is at best high maintenance and at worst a potential impediment to proper development. We'll have a new head coach and hopefully staff, as well as a new front office, who will likely feel(rightly or wrongly) that their careers are tied directly to this kid. On top of which we have one of the most aggressively pessimistic press cores in all of american sports, oh and lets not forget he will only be replacing a franchise legend whose benching created such a back lash that it directly led to the firing of the previous head coach and GM.

Mostly it is the first part that worries me. Maybe my mind is failing me but I cant think of any young quarterbacks in recent memory who were successful stepping into a situation as bad as the Giants with respect to their o-line and running game situation. This in a division mind you with two very good young qbs playing behind two of the better o-lines in the league. The Giants are also in dire straights with the salary cap thanks the Reese's coup de gras of a fuck up last off season. It could take a couple years to put a solid offense around whoever we take and that is just to the point where he can start having an opportunity to compete in the division. You just don't see a lot of young guys who develop into good players in these kinds of situations and this type of qb failure is a common occurrence among the leagues worst franchises.

This is beginning to feel like a nearly toxic environment to try and develop a young quarterback in and they are going to need a ton of personal confidence to carry that weight without it affecting them. I guess I will have more confidence when in my views one way or the other when i finally get a look at the next GM and Coach but right now I am extremely worried about drafting a QB given the situation he is going to be walking into. For the first time in a very long time the Giants feel like a bad organization. I really really hope I'm wrong about that.
Sound post.  
Britt in VA : 12/12/2017 12:41 pm : link
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Agreed.  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 12/12/2017 12:44 pm : link
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It's amazingly similar to January 2004  
Tom in NY : 12/12/2017 12:45 pm : link
The Oline had not yet taken shape (McKenzie, Snee, O'Hara were not here yet).

Coughlin had not yet been named HC.

Shockey = OBJ

Press Corps = Press Corps

...and yet Eli succeeded!
This is why not every good QB is a fit here...the right player, the right HC & GM, plus build the team around the QB = Success.
Well  
jvm52106 : 12/12/2017 12:48 pm : link
you are talking about May and using December's team snapshot as your basis of the post. New GM, new Coach, Free Agency all will happen well before any rookies are added.

The Giants to me needed this house cleaning to get rid of the up and down nature we have had for years which was covered or masked with two Super Bowl runs. The reality is our best team in the last 15 years was 2008 which ended without a SB victory. In all honesty this team should be more like a 4-5 win team. The Bucs, Eagles and Chargers games were all very winnable. We are still a bad team but more like 1983 but with a horrible coaching situation and locker room.

The Giants can make an 80's like change right now. Find our new coach and get back to a more physical brand of football.

A young QB coming in here with a new staff will be breath of fresh air. Lots can happen in the next few months long before we draft a QB.
agree a lot but disagree on the Recievers  
Stu11 : 12/12/2017 12:50 pm : link
OBJ, Engram and Shep are a nice start. Yes the RB's and OLine are a mess. Its a tough fix, but I think the problem is we need a new perspective and fresh ideas. Thats why I really hope Gettleman isn't the choice. We need to clean house.
The Giants are the ideal for any qb  
NYSports1 : 12/12/2017 12:50 pm : link
Its the number one market and one of the iconic teams in the game. All QB's know that once you have the QB in place the rest falls into place and you do not need to put a hof team around him. If he is the franchise he would make up for any short comings....

All these qb's will be salivating at the Giants being in the top 3 picks
Well feelings can change.  
NYRiese : 12/12/2017 12:51 pm : link
Just look at the way they are handling Webb. They are smart enough to know not to put him in a game with such a crappy OL and raw recieving corp.
One would hope they’d do the same with a #1 pick despite the fan and media pressure.
How often do QBs  
AcesUp : 12/12/2017 12:51 pm : link
drafted in the top 5 land in perfect situations? That kind of comes with the territory when picking that high, your team sucks. You can develop a QB and his supporting pieces at the same time, it is possible. Odds are the OL and running game fixes won't occur in one offseason anyway. Look at Philly and the Rams, neither team was loaded on the offensive side of the ball when Goff and Wents went 1/2.

There is merit to bringing in or keeping Eli as a bridge QB. As we saw this season, 16 games of ineptitude is an eternity in the microscope. However, it's ok and prudent to let the kid get legitimate game experience year 1.
I think the reason teams in  
joeinpa : 12/12/2017 12:56 pm : link
Position to draft quarterbacks like Eli is because they are not very good.

Eli seemed to overcome as did Simms and many other highly taken quarterbacks.

Giants are is a good position to rebuild this thing
RE: It's amazingly similar to January 2004  
Giants_West : 12/12/2017 12:57 pm : link
In comment 13737400 Tom in NY said:
Quote:
The Oline had not yet taken shape (McKenzie, Snee, O'Hara were not here yet).

Coughlin had not yet been named HC.

Shockey = OBJ

Press Corps = Press Corps

...and yet Eli succeeded!
This is why not every good QB is a fit here...the right player, the right HC & GM, plus build the team around the QB = Success.



I kind of agree. Eli in particular was perfectly suited for that sort of situation but lets not forget how much he got hammered for that early on or the fact that had we not won the Super Bowl following the '07 there is a good chance that the organization at least fires Coughlin and potentially blows the whole thing up and we hop back on the QB carousel. What happens four years from now if there is no miracle? We are still trying to put the pieces back together but they aren't coming together fast enough for the fans and the media? That is how teams end up in a franchise death spiral and from what I have observed the only way out is to get the team built and then bring in your young QB to run it. At least it seems like that is currently how it seems to be working elsewhere in the league.


Also yeah, my grammar and spelling functionality don't switch on until 10 am here on the west coast ;).
Not necessarily  
jc in c-ville : 12/12/2017 12:57 pm : link
We focus on the Giants so much, we don't see as much as the horrid that is the NFL.

Yes, the OL sucks and the RB situation is better than we think based on the OL and the lousy play-calling that has existed for much of the past two years.

Factor in the miss-use of OBJ even when healthy ( slants, slants and more slants- you can count on one fingers the past two years that there has been bombs to OBJ to at the very least produce a flag), #2 goes down and unmotivated when playing, a hurt #3 for much of the year, and a rookie TE who can't play within his position and take ownership of the middle due to my points above.

Next, you have Eli. Eli has been terribly inconsistent and his thrown have been consistently high, behind WR's all year.

Consider our special teams. We're lucky to get to the 20.

Factor in all this and you have a shit-show that we witness, closely each and every week.

There is a silver lining. Coach and Reese are gone. With that , there will be a complete house cleaning that will manufacture a completely different culture.

The likes of Marshall, Vereen( $$), a completely re-vamped OL and possibly a shake up on the D with all these huge contracts and behavioral issues.

To your Q, at the very least, we have NYC to thank for a young QB to be attracted to the Giants. We want someone who can handle the pressure (ELI) while having the MOJO to want to be in the big city ( Possibly BM). What cancels the Jets out is well, they're the fucking Jets.

Next year may be ugly for sure but this re-build has been a long time coming and fully expect the next brass to turn this franchise around and start being competitive in this parity driven NFL as soon as 2019- with a new franchise QB.
And  
jc in c-ville : 12/12/2017 1:02 pm : link
If next year is in the range of 4-12, 6-10- great opportunity to stock pile within the draft.

More importantly, Reese has held this team hostage given the spending spree on d with the JPP contract a complete insane handcuff.

OBJ is going to want to be paid and if Collins bounces back, he will too and is incredibly important to this d.

So, the CAP and how they manage it will be telling.
I don't think  
Gman11 : 12/12/2017 1:03 pm : link
OBJ is high maintenance for the QB.

He might be with the coaches because of his stupid celebration penalties and his lack of self control on the sidelines. However, everything I've read says that he is well liked in the locker room and I really don't see him showing up the QB on the field. Is he a bit of a diva? Sure, but aren't most WRs?
Yeah, Cleveland or Buffalo are Much  
clatterbuck : 12/12/2017 1:03 pm : link
more attractive options than playing quarterback for one of the premier franchises in the NFL in the biggest market in the country. Who wants to throw to OBJ, Engram, Shepard for a team that's been in five SBs in 30 years? That would really suck.
My point is more:  
Giants_West : 12/12/2017 1:19 pm : link
Can the QB be successful walking into the situation we present? If he isn't, if he looks (predictably) like ass, how long does he get? How does the media and organizational pressure of a bad rookie season in a division with two QBs doing very well (likely competing for championships) in only their 3rd season affect him? More importantly how does it effect development? This is going to be by far the most high pressure situation a QB can step into.
You have to have a handle the kids makeup  
AcesUp : 12/12/2017 1:29 pm : link
A bridge QB may be necessary but I don't think it's a great idea delay a rebuild because you want to completely toddler proof your roster first.
lots of truth in the OP BUT, it is possible that with a different  
Victor in CT : 12/12/2017 1:34 pm : link
scheme and a couple of additions they could be much better. Eric pointed out once that he thought Flowers would be a beast in the Steelers more aggressive, physical scheme. I think the key is who the new GM and HC are, and what type of offense they are going to run.
Bingo  
idiotsavant : 12/12/2017 1:37 pm : link
And why have we not been talking about that part.
After effects of HOF QB and Coach  
SLIM_ : 12/12/2017 2:01 pm : link
There often hard to replace. Sometimes it can be done, Favre-Rodgers, Walsh/Montana-Seifert/Young. Other times, not so much Elway-years of stumbling around, Marino-years of stumbling around. Parcells/Simms - let's stop there.

Anyway, NY is a tough place to play. IF you win, it is the best place but many people have been run out of this town.

Good thing with coaching is that Coughlin is a little in the rear view mirror now with McAdoo being fired. Next year's coach, will probably be compared to McAdoo instead of just Coughlin.

That is why I would consider trading down. We could trade down and get a slew of picks. Say we get an extra 2 this year and an extra 1 next. We take those 2 picks and draft offensive lineman. A free agent lineman, resigning Fluker and hitting on 2 high draft picks should at least make a respectable line. Perkins/Gallaman/Darkwa? should be serviceable. We have some nice blocking tight ends and good receivers. Maybe Davis thrives.

If not, we will still be picking high and will have another draft pick to move up the following year.
As a QB  
MotownGIANTS : 12/12/2017 2:06 pm : link
I would not want to come into a situation where the TEAM has shown and proven they can not develop an OL unless all I cared about was the money and off field opportunities
RE: How often do QBs  
old man : 12/12/2017 2:21 pm : link
In comment 13737416 AcesUp said:
Quote:
drafted in the top 5 land in perfect situations? That kind of comes with the territory when picking that high, your team sucks. You can develop a QB and his supporting pieces at the same time, it is possible. Odds are the OL and running game fixes won't occur in one offseason anyway. Look at Philly and the Rams, neither team was loaded on the offensive side of the ball when Goff and Wents went 1/2.

+1.



There is merit to bringing in or keeping Eli as a bridge QB. As we saw this season, 16 games of ineptitude is an eternity in the microscope. However, it's ok and prudent to let the kid get legitimate game experience year 1.
RE: How often do QBs  
WillVAB : 12/12/2017 3:32 pm : link
In comment 13737416 AcesUp said:
Quote:
drafted in the top 5 land in perfect situations? That kind of comes with the territory when picking that high, your team sucks. You can develop a QB and his supporting pieces at the same time, it is possible. Odds are the OL and running game fixes won't occur in one offseason anyway. Look at Philly and the Rams, neither team was loaded on the offensive side of the ball when Goff and Wents went 1/2.

There is merit to bringing in or keeping Eli as a bridge QB. As we saw this season, 16 games of ineptitude is an eternity in the microscope. However, it's ok and prudent to let the kid get legitimate game experience year 1.


Philly and the Rams were fortunate that several key guys were available in the FA market and they got them. The potential FAs at the Giants need spots this year are pretty poor.

If the Giants go QB in the draft, it’s gonna be a 3 year rebuild. That’s assuming they draft well.
It's really difficult to handicap FA in december  
AcesUp : 12/12/2017 4:39 pm : link
You're going to have surprise cuts and there are guys, especially at OL, that aren't on fans' radar. We're not combing the All 22s studying line play around the league. You're certainly not going to be able to handicap next year's crop. Also, drafting a QB doesn't preclude us from finding OL or RB help in the draft. Those commodities are plentiful from picks 35+. Lastly, I fail to see how drafting a longterm QB next year, when we don't have one, would delay a rebuild. More than anything, it has the longest learning curve and is something you want to get a jump on ASAP.
RE: It's really difficult to handicap FA in december  
WillVAB : 12/12/2017 8:43 pm : link
In comment 13737895 AcesUp said:
Quote:
You're going to have surprise cuts and there are guys, especially at OL, that aren't on fans' radar. We're not combing the All 22s studying line play around the league. You're certainly not going to be able to handicap next year's crop. Also, drafting a QB doesn't preclude us from finding OL or RB help in the draft. Those commodities are plentiful from picks 35+. Lastly, I fail to see how drafting a longterm QB next year, when we don't have one, would delay a rebuild. More than anything, it has the longest learning curve and is something you want to get a jump on ASAP.


Best case scenario for the Giants if they go the QB route is they get a guy like Swanson or the TEN center in FA and he pans out. The new GM finds value at LB in FA and he/they pan out. The Giants hit on 4 of 6 draft picks (including QB) and 2 of those 4 are OL. Flowers gets moved inside and works out.

That’s really the only realistic scenario that I can think of where the Giants are right back in it if they go the QB route in the draft.

To your last point, if the rookie QB is a bust that will certainly delay the rebuild. If Eli is capable of playing at a SB winning level for another 3-4 years, then it’s certainly a mistake. The pick has the potential to net a pretty big return, which could then be flipped into cheap, high quality players who could put the team right back in the mix in ‘18.
RE: My point is more:  
santacruzom : 12/12/2017 9:01 pm : link
In comment 13737489 Giants_West said:
Quote:
Can the QB be successful walking into the situation we present? If he isn't,


Well, what if the Giants don't actually plan to start the rookie QB in his first year, it even his second year?
Wrong  
spike : 12/12/2017 9:03 pm : link
the Browns, the Jets, Bills are far worse places for a young QB.

Oops  
santacruzom : 12/12/2017 9:07 pm : link
Or even his second year
No  
UConn4523 : 12/12/2017 9:27 pm : link
The NFL operates in such a way where teams can bottom out and bounce back within a year or two. Who’s to say we don’t have a completely revamped OLine in 2018? And any rookie QB would love to play with a WR like Beckham, they’d be fools not to.
its certainly not the best situation  
UESBLUE : 12/12/2017 9:36 pm : link
but lets revisit once we have a new staff in place and a winning philosophy to go along with it
No, the rookie we drafted this year (Webb)  
Jimmy Googs : 12/12/2017 9:43 pm : link
didn't have any of the problems you mentioned...
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