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NFT: MLB Winter Meetings Day 3

DaddyM89 : 12/13/2017 1:34 am
Things are starting to heat up on the hot stove:

-Machado and Ozuna are on the block. Look for the Cards to get one of them after losing out on Stanton.

- JD Martinez is down in Orlando negotiating with teams (my hunch is he goes to the Red Sox somewhere around 6 Years 170 Million.)

- After trading Headley on Tuesday, what is Cashmans next move. All signs seem to point to them trading for a cost controlled pitcher (Fulmer, Cole, Archer etc.) with their crop of prospects. That could be at the missing piece for a legit title run.

- Will the Mets finally do something? All ive seen from Mets fans is frustration the past two days, and I don't blame them one bit.

- Rumors of a possible Greinke trade also. That is a massive contract to move.

Should be a fun day.
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Ricco  
DanMetroMan : 12/13/2017 6:49 pm : link
trolling Mets fans I see

Michael Mayer @mikemayerMMO
now
Also mentioned signing Yoenis Cespedes when asked about acquiring big names, and said they do as many deals like that as anybody.
I think that's a pretty accurate representation of the situation  
Eric on Li : 12/13/2017 6:51 pm : link
Sandy is literally too boring and too averse to just mixing it up that this painful patient approach settles in and has a paralysis effect when combined with the budget. Cashman has a huge budget, yes, but he also aggressively took shots on guys like Didi and Castro when their value was low. Those were guys we were rumored for numerous times and when they became available for peanuts we passed. Jed Lowrie is another guy who was their for the taking as a FA a few times and now we're trying to trade for him.
.  
arcarsenal : 12/13/2017 6:52 pm : link
LOL, the only reason Cespedes was even brought back after 2015 is because he fell right into their laps. They were very much prepared to let him walk if another team had some in with a more competitive offer.

What a fucking clown show.
Didi, Hicks  
DanMetroMan : 12/13/2017 6:56 pm : link
Castro, Chad Green. Yankees spend but also have a great GM.
RE: I think that's a pretty accurate representation of the situation  
arcarsenal : 12/13/2017 6:56 pm : link
In comment 13739575 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
Sandy is literally too boring and too averse to just mixing it up that this painful patient approach settles in and has a paralysis effect when combined with the budget. Cashman has a huge budget, yes, but he also aggressively took shots on guys like Didi and Castro when their value was low. Those were guys we were rumored for numerous times and when they became available for peanuts we passed. Jed Lowrie is another guy who was their for the taking as a FA a few times and now we're trying to trade for him.


Yep. The reason why the Yankees were able to rebuild so quickly and so efficiently is because they were willing to spend in the first place - it allowed them to flip players like Chapman and Miller at the deadline to re-stock their farm and they just went ahead and re-signed Chapman anyway.

So, just by spending to sign Chapman in the first place, they were able to acquire a top-shelf prospect in Torres and then wind up with Chapman back in the fold the very next season anyway.

Some teams are committed to winning - the Mets are committed to saving money.
Kinsler  
DanMetroMan : 12/13/2017 7:03 pm : link
an Angel
RE: RE: RE: Would clint frazer  
Milton : 12/13/2017 7:05 pm : link
In comment 13739572 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 13739544 Milton said:


Quote:


In comment 13739517 DaddyM89 said:


Quote:


one of their top pitching prospects ( Sheffield, Adams, Abreu) and maybe two lower level prospects get it done for Cole?

I hope they can keep Sheffield. If they can get it done without including Torres, Florial, Sheffield, Abreu, Andujar, and Medina I'll be a happy camper. Maybe Frazier, Adams, Estrada, and Tate (not Mr. Tate of McMann & Tate, but Dillon Tate). Those are four excellent prospects, but they can't expect all their trades to be as painless as the one for Stanton.


Yuck. Forget Cole - stop trying to suggest paying ace prices for a mid-rotation guy with NL stats. Fulmer should be the target.
I'll leave it to Cashman to decide who presents the better bargain between Cole and Fullmer, but I suspect Fullmer will come at too high a cost. Certainly it would be at a higher cost than Cole. And while Frazier, Adams, Estrada, and Tate (Dillon Tate, not the advertising big whig) is a steep price, it still leaves the Yankees with their untouchables intact. It'll be impossible to pull off a deal for Fulmer without including at least one out of Torres, Florial, and Sheffield.
Exactly - Miller too  
Eric on Li : 12/13/2017 7:16 pm : link
They didn't resign him (yet) but that move gave them a better roster for the time he was there and a piece that's probably going to bring back Fulmer. Their spending creates value. Buying low and rolling the dice creates value.

Sandy sits on his hands and pretends the budget isn't a problem. He acts surprised by FA values easily predicted by MLBTR. They shuffle players back and forth from their natural positions like Conforto (LF-> RF -> CF), and Flores, and Cespedes, instead of just putting them in their best positions and letting them succeed. Then repeat the same mistakes all over again the next offseason.

Step 1. Pass on the most obvious but expensive options (Hosmer/Moustakas/Davis).

Step 2. Pass on the most appealing tier 2 options (Morrow/Minor/McGee/Cain/Shaw). Also bemoan the over priced trade market and knock players that "didn't fit".

Step 3. Spend on the best of the not great options or take on salary dump type trades and put them into a role or position they aren't accustomed to (Bruce to 1B!).

Step 4. Rinse and repeat next year.
RE: Kinsler  
Rory : 12/13/2017 7:43 pm : link
In comment 13739592 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
an Angel


just saw that. ughhhhhhhhhhhh
Olney says not so fast  
Eric on Li : 12/13/2017 7:44 pm : link
Buster Olney‏Verified account
@Buster_ESPN
4m4 minutes ago
More
Tigers do not have an Ian Kinsler deal with the Angels yet, according to sources.
RE: Hard not to like the  
ZGiants98 : 12/13/2017 7:46 pm : link
In comment 13739507 Metnut said:
Quote:
Swarzak signing in isolation but the entire offseason is Swarzek, Bruce and Kipnis or something like that then the fans should have pitchforks.


I actually wouldnt hate that. Im actually worried we wont even get that. It's pretty clear we've wanted a late-inning reliever, a OF/1B type that's proven...preferably has pop to replace all that we've lost... and a 2B option. Those three arent elite options but they are in the upper echelon of available options left unless we are dreaming on JD Martinez and Hosmer. Those guys arent coming here.
I actually like Bruce better than Cain  
ZGiants98 : 12/13/2017 7:51 pm : link
He's likely to age better. Cain's value is tied to his Defense and Speed and he's already started his decline. Bruce's value is tied to his bat, and while he isnt an elite option, he just turned 30. It's a fair bet he'll maintain his production for a few years.

Conforto proved he can play CF and he's got Lagares backing him up. He's only 24. It wont kill him to play there for a few years.
GET ME COZART!!  
ZGiants98 : 12/13/2017 7:55 pm : link

@Ken_Rosenthal
Plenty of middle infielders still available: #Indians Kipnis; #Pirates Harrison; #DBacks Owings, Drury; #Phillies Galvis, C. Hernandez; free agents Cozart, N. Walker. Kipnis owed $30.5M including $2.5M buyout on 2020 option - and he currently is without a position in CLE.
What the Marlins are doing and have done is actually really deplorable  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/13/2017 7:58 pm : link
Selling the league MVP for pennies to tank for liquidity because they actually can't afford to own and operate a major league club

All while playing in a taxpayer-funded ballpark that only got approved with the understanding that ownership would cease these firesale and make a reasonable attempt at competitive baseball.

Four firesales in 20 years.
I feel bad for south Florida baseball fans...  
ZGiants98 : 12/13/2017 8:05 pm : link
The new stadium looks hideous on TV but it's actually an awesome place. One of my favorite stadiums in baseball actually. The food is fantastic and you legitimately feel like you are watching a game in Havannah or something. The stadium is actually beautiful.

You just feel if they ever legitimately put a WS contender together that place would explode.


butttt. the announcers can still suck it. :)
.  
arcarsenal : 12/13/2017 8:07 pm : link
I'd absolutely quit rooting for the Marlins if I were a fan. The Mets have made me get close - but the Marlins are really deplorable. They don't deserve any fans. When all of that taxpayer money went into the new park, those fans were promised there would be no more of this bullshit and now they're right back to dumping all of their best players for pennies on the dollar.

it's embarrassing.
Im going to laugh my ass off if Sandy gives up a haul for  
ZGiants98 : 12/13/2017 8:18 pm : link
Kinsler. lol


hris McCosky
@cmccosky
Two things could be snagging Kinsler deal to Angels; still haggling over return, or another team upped the ante (Mets?). My understanding was Kinsler agreed to waive no trade clause for Angels.
Mets fans getting this for Christmas...  
ZGiants98 : 12/13/2017 8:22 pm : link
Wow.  
ZGiants98 : 12/13/2017 8:35 pm : link

Buster Olney

@Buster_ESPN
Although Tigers-Angels Kinsler deal hasn't crossed the finish line yet, Mets aren't currently engaged on Kinsler.
RE: What the Marlins are doing and have done is actually really deplorable  
pjcas18 : 12/13/2017 8:46 pm : link
In comment 13739649 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Selling the league MVP for pennies to tank for liquidity because they actually can't afford to own and operate a major league club

All while playing in a taxpayer-funded ballpark that only got approved with the understanding that ownership would cease these firesale and make a reasonable attempt at competitive baseball.

Four firesales in 20 years.


two of the four fire sales came after WS wins, those two I'd live with. The last two would push my fandom to the limits.

especially this one when the team was just sold to a new ownership group.
.  
BigBlue4You09 : 12/13/2017 8:53 pm : link
The #Angels are on the verge of acquiring a third baseman once they complete Ian Kinsler deal and have shown strong interest in #Padres Chase Headley
Kinsler is now  
ZGiants98 : 12/13/2017 8:59 pm : link
official. Done.
Orioles  
Michael 123 : 12/13/2017 9:14 pm : link
Have multiple,offers for Machado, including the Yankees.
Machado Offers - ( New Window )
Good deal for Angels  
BigBlue4You09 : 12/13/2017 9:20 pm : link
Can confirm that the Angels have acquired Ian Kinsler from the Tigers in exchange for OF Troy Montgomery and RHP Wilkel Hernandez. Montgomery and Hernandez were ranked the Angels' No. 20 and 24 prospects, respectively, by @MLBPipeline
Here we go again...  
ZGiants98 : 12/13/2017 9:24 pm : link
Smith getting skinny.

Machado would be a huge risk for Chicago.  
bceagle05 : 12/13/2017 9:27 pm : link
They did a great job building a farm system, only to risk blue chip prospect on a rental? I could see Philly taking a chance - they have a ton of money to spend going forward.
RE: Good deal for Angels  
Eric on Li : 12/13/2017 9:32 pm : link
In comment 13739705 BigBlue4You09 said:
Quote:
Can confirm that the Angels have acquired Ian Kinsler from the Tigers in exchange for OF Troy Montgomery and RHP Wilkel Hernandez. Montgomery and Hernandez were ranked the Angels' No. 20 and 24 prospects, respectively, by @MLBPipeline


I can see why Sandy was scared off. Better to sit tight.
Let Flores play  
spike : 12/13/2017 9:36 pm : link
2b
RE: RE: Good deal for Angels  
pjcas18 : 12/13/2017 10:00 pm : link
In comment 13739710 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 13739705 BigBlue4You09 said:


Quote:


Can confirm that the Angels have acquired Ian Kinsler from the Tigers in exchange for OF Troy Montgomery and RHP Wilkel Hernandez. Montgomery and Hernandez were ranked the Angels' No. 20 and 24 prospects, respectively, by @MLBPipeline



I can see why Sandy was scared off. Better to sit tight.


Is that a joke? #20 and #24 prospect scared him off? He traded Merandy Gonzalez (Mets #5 prospect?) for 1 year and 2 months of AJ Ramos.

The $11M contract the Angels ate all of probably scared him more.
The Mets were on a no trade list  
ZGiants98 : 12/13/2017 10:07 pm : link
Kinsler wasn't coming here anyway and he's utterly mediocre. Mets will pull off a trade for a 2B.
Yanks submit offer for Machado:  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/13/2017 10:15 pm : link
Quote:
As the annual Winter Meeting continue to unfold, another superstar continues to receive a lot of buzz, and to the surprise of no one, the Yankees are in the center of the action.

Over the last couple days speculation has surrounded the Orioles and their star third basemen Manny Machado, but now the rumors appear to be gaining real traction. It has long been speculated that the Yanks would be targeting signing Machado as a free agent after the 2018 season, but it appears they may be in play to acquire his services even sooner.

According to Orioles beat reporter Dan Clark, there are several offers on the table for Machado with the Yankees as one of the potential suitors. The Cardinals, who had made a big splash earlier today in acquiring Marcell Ozuna from the Marlins, are in on Machado, along with the Giants, White Sox and Phillies.


Dan Clark

@DanClarkSports
Several offers are on the table for Manny Machado - Cardinals, White Sox, Yankees, Phillies and Giants. #Orioles

9:02 PM - Dec 13, 2017

At this time there has been no clarity as to just who the Yankees or any of the other potential suitors have offered the Orioles for Machado, but the wheels certainly appear to be in motion and we will continue to provide updates on Machado as it continues to develop.



Link - ( New Window )
Cold day in hell when the Orioles trade a star to the Yankees  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/13/2017 10:16 pm : link
.
Dom seems like one of those dudes who is kinda supposed to be a fatty.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/13/2017 10:18 pm : link
When you have to struggle so much to control your weight, that's an uphill climb against nature.
RE: RE: RE: Good deal for Angels  
arcarsenal : 12/13/2017 10:20 pm : link
In comment 13739733 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13739710 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 13739705 BigBlue4You09 said:


Quote:


Can confirm that the Angels have acquired Ian Kinsler from the Tigers in exchange for OF Troy Montgomery and RHP Wilkel Hernandez. Montgomery and Hernandez were ranked the Angels' No. 20 and 24 prospects, respectively, by @MLBPipeline



I can see why Sandy was scared off. Better to sit tight.



Is that a joke? #20 and #24 prospect scared him off? He traded Merandy Gonzalez (Mets #5 prospect?) for 1 year and 2 months of AJ Ramos.

The $11M contract the Angels ate all of probably scared him more.


I think Eric was being facetious - or at least that's how I interpreted.

If we were on Kinsler's no-trade list, I guess there's nothing we can do anyway. If I were any player with a no-trade option, this fucking dumpster franchise would be one of the first teams on it.
RE: RE: RE: Good deal for Angels  
Eric on Li : 12/13/2017 10:21 pm : link
In comment 13739733 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13739710 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 13739705 BigBlue4You09 said:


Quote:


Can confirm that the Angels have acquired Ian Kinsler from the Tigers in exchange for OF Troy Montgomery and RHP Wilkel Hernandez. Montgomery and Hernandez were ranked the Angels' No. 20 and 24 prospects, respectively, by @MLBPipeline



I can see why Sandy was scared off. Better to sit tight.



Is that a joke? #20 and #24 prospect scared him off? He traded Merandy Gonzalez (Mets #5 prospect?) for 1 year and 2 months of AJ Ramos.

The $11M contract the Angels ate all of probably scared him more.


It was a joke.
RE: Cold day in hell when the Orioles trade a star to the Yankees  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/13/2017 10:31 pm : link
In comment 13739751 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
.


If they give them the best prospect package of the bunch, there's a chance. Or, they can let him go for nothing next year. Either way.
A chance, sure.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/13/2017 10:32 pm : link
But there's legitimate ill will from the Orioles owner when it comes to the Yankess, and he's known to be petty and spiteful.
RE: RE: Cold day in hell when the Orioles trade a star to the Yankees  
Dunedin81 : 12/13/2017 10:33 pm : link
In comment 13739762 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
In comment 13739751 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


.



If they give them the best prospect package of the bunch, there's a chance. Or, they can let him go for nothing next year. Either way.


Thing is, it won't be nothing. He's a face of the franchise, worth millions in revenue. Plus he's still a potential deadline deal to a contender, with a lot of leverage at that point.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Good deal for Angels  
Eric on Li : 12/13/2017 10:34 pm : link
In comment 13739755 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13739733 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 13739710 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 13739705 BigBlue4You09 said:


Quote:


Can confirm that the Angels have acquired Ian Kinsler from the Tigers in exchange for OF Troy Montgomery and RHP Wilkel Hernandez. Montgomery and Hernandez were ranked the Angels' No. 20 and 24 prospects, respectively, by @MLBPipeline



I can see why Sandy was scared off. Better to sit tight.



Is that a joke? #20 and #24 prospect scared him off? He traded Merandy Gonzalez (Mets #5 prospect?) for 1 year and 2 months of AJ Ramos.

The $11M contract the Angels ate all of probably scared him more.



I think Eric was being facetious - or at least that's how I interpreted.

If we were on Kinsler's no-trade list, I guess there's nothing we can do anyway. If I were any player with a no-trade option, this fucking dumpster franchise would be one of the first teams on it.


I'm pretty sure the Angels were also on the NT list. It doesn't sound like that's the reason we didn't get him but who knows.

The thing that just continues to boggle the mind is that they were apparently motivated to act aggressively this year. Well why hasn't that happened? It seems to be a buyers market for the most part. Ozuna didn't bring back a crazy return. None of the FA contracts have been longer than 3 years yet I don't think.
RE: RE: RE: Cold day in hell when the Orioles trade a star to the Yankees  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/13/2017 10:40 pm : link
In comment 13739764 Dunedin81 said:
Quote:
In comment 13739762 Dave in Hoboken said:


Quote:


In comment 13739751 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


.



If they give them the best prospect package of the bunch, there's a chance. Or, they can let him go for nothing next year. Either way.



Thing is, it won't be nothing. He's a face of the franchise, worth millions in revenue. Plus he's still a potential deadline deal to a contender, with a lot of leverage at that point.


By 'nothing', I meant when his contract is up and he's a FA. If he leaves, BAL gets nothing back in return for him..
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Good deal for Angels  
arcarsenal : 12/13/2017 10:47 pm : link
In comment 13739765 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 13739755 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 13739733 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


In comment 13739710 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 13739705 BigBlue4You09 said:


Quote:


Can confirm that the Angels have acquired Ian Kinsler from the Tigers in exchange for OF Troy Montgomery and RHP Wilkel Hernandez. Montgomery and Hernandez were ranked the Angels' No. 20 and 24 prospects, respectively, by @MLBPipeline



I can see why Sandy was scared off. Better to sit tight.



Is that a joke? #20 and #24 prospect scared him off? He traded Merandy Gonzalez (Mets #5 prospect?) for 1 year and 2 months of AJ Ramos.

The $11M contract the Angels ate all of probably scared him more.



I think Eric was being facetious - or at least that's how I interpreted.

If we were on Kinsler's no-trade list, I guess there's nothing we can do anyway. If I were any player with a no-trade option, this fucking dumpster franchise would be one of the first teams on it.



I'm pretty sure the Angels were also on the NT list. It doesn't sound like that's the reason we didn't get him but who knows.

The thing that just continues to boggle the mind is that they were apparently motivated to act aggressively this year. Well why hasn't that happened? It seems to be a buyers market for the most part. Ozuna didn't bring back a crazy return. None of the FA contracts have been longer than 3 years yet I don't think.


Yeah, I am pretty stumped - the Mets seem to operate in this weird way where they come up with a specific scenario that needs to play out for them to be aggressive or proactive, and if all of those chips don't fall the way they expect, it's like there's no alternative aside from "sit back and let the dust settle" - which, effectively takes you out of the running of most of the impact players.

Market dries up and we're left with scraps.

Going out and getting a player like Ozuna would have been something that created a little buzz - and it wouldn't have been majorly costly.

Instead, we sit on our hands and watch StL make it happen - and that's why the Cardinals are never out of the postseason for more than a year or two and we're the exact inverse.

I keep waiting for a light to go on with the Mets and hope someone in that front office will finally "get it" - but I seem to be wasting my time.
...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/13/2017 10:51 pm : link
"the Mets seem to operate in this weird way where they come up with a specific scenario that needs to play out for them to be aggressive or proactive, and if all of those chips don't fall the way they expect, it's like there's no alternative aside from "sit back and let the dust settle" - which, effectively takes you out of the running of most of the impact players. "

They manufacture excuses to explain away why they don't spend.


.  
arcarsenal : 12/13/2017 10:57 pm : link
I have plenty of issues with the spending - even still, I don't feel you necessarily have to spend 150M+ on payroll every year to be competitive - but if you're not, then you have to be very active and creative. You have to be more of a player in the IFA market, you have to constantly be scouring the wire.

Alderson seems glacially slow to the punch when the market starts moving quickly and he doesn't seem to be all that good at improvising on the fly.

Overwhelming pressure from the fans was the only thing that ever got Cespedes here in the first place and if it wasn't for his market being so underwhelming 2 years ago, he never even would have been back.
I understood your point and you're not wrong...  
Dunedin81 : 12/13/2017 10:58 pm : link
But to a cheap bastard like Angelos the revenue money - both from merchandise and from being able to tell fans you're not punting the season - may be worth more in dollar value than a Chance Adams and a Miguel Andujar. This is a guy whose GM sells IFA money, almost all of it, because he won't commit the money to build a Latin American scouting program. They are the only team without a significant presence down there.
RE: I understood your point and you're not wrong...  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/13/2017 10:59 pm : link
In comment 13739779 Dunedin81 said:
Quote:
But to a cheap bastard like Angelos the revenue money - both from merchandise and from being able to tell fans you're not punting the season - may be worth more in dollar value than a Chance Adams and a Miguel Andujar. This is a guy whose GM sells IFA money, almost all of it, because he won't commit the money to build a Latin American scouting program. They are the only team without a significant presence down there.


Gotcha. Thanks. And I agree.
Agree with both you guys - after 7 or 8 years it's plain as day  
Eric on Li : 12/13/2017 10:59 pm : link
they don't want to spend. period. Sandy was able to get lucky the past couple years bringing back Cespedes with the extra playoff $. And this year despite his best efforts to recoup money at the deadline the well has seemingly dried up.

Btw here are Kinsler's 10 no trade teams:
Mets, Angels, Brewers, Yankees, Dodgers, Athletics, Padres, Giants, Rays, and Blue Jays.

A few teams he probably didn't want to go to, a few big market teams to possibly extract an extension. With all the "legwork" they'd supposedly done pre-WM it seems crazy to think they would have been surprised at the sticker price of 2 nothing prospects or caught off guard by a no-trade clause. Or incompetent. Not sure which would be a better outcome.
Details On Ian Kinslers No-Trade Clause - ( New Window )
RE: .  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/13/2017 11:08 pm : link
In comment 13739778 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I have plenty of issues with the spending - even still, I don't feel you necessarily have to spend 150M+ on payroll every year to be competitive - but if you're not, then you have to be very active and creative. You have to be more of a player in the IFA market, you have to constantly be scouring the wire.


Oh, I know spending money doesn't equal winning, but the Mets I grew up with never cared about spending too much. Now it's clear that they do. At least when they failed, they failed while trying to put together a team that could win. It's really the creativity that bothers me the most.

In 2006 they overspent on some players just to make the franchise credible again. They ended up getting Beltran, went after Delgado. Overpaid for Pedro just to demonstrate that they wanted to win games. It made the team a destination.

I have no confidence they would risk spending money even on prime talent. It's always dollar store shopping, unless it's one of Sandy's misguided bullpen hunches like Frank Francisco.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 12/13/2017 11:12 pm : link
In comment 13739784 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13739778 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


I have plenty of issues with the spending - even still, I don't feel you necessarily have to spend 150M+ on payroll every year to be competitive - but if you're not, then you have to be very active and creative. You have to be more of a player in the IFA market, you have to constantly be scouring the wire.



Oh, I know spending money doesn't equal winning, but the Mets I grew up with never cared about spending too much. Now it's clear that they do. At least when they failed, they failed while trying to put together a team that could win. It's really the creativity that bothers me the most.

In 2006 they overspent on some players just to make the franchise credible again. They ended up getting Beltran, went after Delgado. Overpaid for Pedro just to demonstrate that they wanted to win games. It made the team a destination.

I have no confidence they would risk spending money even on prime talent. It's always dollar store shopping, unless it's one of Sandy's misguided bullpen hunches like Frank Francisco.


I'm with ya, man. Agree with every word.

Frustrating times. Brought up such a promising crop of young pitchers and I feel like it's all just going to complete shit.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Would clint frazer  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/14/2017 5:06 am : link
In comment 13739593 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13739572 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 13739544 Milton said:


Quote:


In comment 13739517 DaddyM89 said:


Quote:


one of their top pitching prospects ( Sheffield, Adams, Abreu) and maybe two lower level prospects get it done for Cole?

I hope they can keep Sheffield. If they can get it done without including Torres, Florial, Sheffield, Abreu, Andujar, and Medina I'll be a happy camper. Maybe Frazier, Adams, Estrada, and Tate (not Mr. Tate of McMann & Tate, but Dillon Tate). Those are four excellent prospects, but they can't expect all their trades to be as painless as the one for Stanton.


Yuck. Forget Cole - stop trying to suggest paying ace prices for a mid-rotation guy with NL stats. Fulmer should be the target.

I'll leave it to Cashman to decide who presents the better bargain between Cole and Fullmer, but I suspect Fullmer will come at too high a cost. Certainly it would be at a higher cost than Cole. And while Frazier, Adams, Estrada, and Tate (Dillon Tate, not the advertising big whig) is a steep price, it still leaves the Yankees with their untouchables intact. It'll be impossible to pull off a deal for Fulmer without including at least one out of Torres, Florial, and Sheffield.

You are wildly undervaluing Frazier. He's in the "untouchables" class in terms of talent, but has graduated out of the prospect rankings. He absolutely could headline a deal for Fulmer (the package you're suggesting would be a steep but acceptable price even for Fulmer, actually - might have to swap Abreu for Tate or Andujar for Estrada). And Fulmer is worth more (way more) than Cole in terms of prospects, due to age, production, current salary and implied salary going forward.

I'm not dismissing the possibility of the Yankees going after Cole, but not even close to the price you're willing to pay, which is no doubt influenced by the fact that you've been in on him for months and are overvaluing him as a target.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Would clint frazer  
Milton : 12/14/2017 10:05 am : link
In comment 13739819 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
You are wildly undervaluing Frazier. He's in the "untouchables" class in terms of talent, but has graduated out of the prospect rankings. He absolutely could headline a deal for Fulmer (the package you're suggesting would be a steep but acceptable price even for Fulmer, actually - might have to swap Abreu for Tate or Andujar for Estrada). And Fulmer is worth more (way more) than Cole in terms of prospects, due to age, production, current salary and implied salary going forward.

I'm not dismissing the possibility of the Yankees going after Cole, but not even close to the price you're willing to pay, which is no doubt influenced by the fact that you've been in on him for months and are overvaluing him as a target.
While most tend to put together overly optimistic hypothetical trades, my hypothetical trades are generally more pessimistic. And the thing about trades is sometimes we're surprised by how much somebody cost and sometimes we're surprised by how cheap they came. As fans we're rarely on the same page as those in the know when it comes to evaluating prospects. The Yankees got both Frazier and Sheffield for Andy Miller and they got Torres for a rental on Chapman, so by that standard, what should a young, cost-controlled All Star like Fulmer get in return?

Here's what Keith Law had to say on the subject...
Quote:
Im asking for two of this group Torres, Sheffield, Andujar, oh and Florial," Law said on what he'd do if he was Avila. "Im saying I want two of those in exchange, and then youre asking for two more (prospects). Two really good prospects at the top and then two lesser prospects to round out the deal. And my lesser (prospects), they can be further away or they can be guys that are just not as good.

The full article is linked below, but here's one more tidbit from it...
Quote:
I like Andujar a lot. Now hes not blocked because (Chase) Headley is gone. I wonder if (the Yankees) see him as a long-term piece or is that a place where theyll go outside and use Andujar as a trade piece. Hes an everyday player for me, no question. Actually like him a bit more than (Clint) Frazier.

Okay, and another (re: Sheffield)...
Quote:
Hes the best pitching prospect in the system by far. Hes one of the best lefties in all of the minors.

Keith Law on Yankees prospects that could be included in trade for Fulmer - ( New Window )
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