I still think that GM's take too much heat and also gain too much praise over draft picks as I think picks are made somewhat collaboratively by an organization, but 27 out of 28 picks still being in the NFL is pretty remarkable. The draft is such a crap shoot. The DT Vernon Butler pick by Gettleman is really his only head scratcher while in Carolina.
people laugh at Bobby Hart, but he's actually a good draft pick. He's far from a legit NFL starter, but he competes for a starting job and he's put together a few decent performances. He's doing exactly what a 7th round draft pick should and then some. Most 7th rounders are out of the league after a year.
overall draft number for each player. I'm thinking the Panthers drafted lower in most of those comparisons. Top 15 players should turn out better than players drafted in 20-31 range.
overall draft number for each player. I'm thinking the Panthers drafted lower in most of those comparisons. Top 15 players should turn out better than players drafted in 20-31 range.
Agreed. Adding where each team drafted within a round would have helped the analysis.
The one other thing that stands out is that when Gettleman "missed" he missed small. The player may not be a starter but he's generally still in the league. When Reese missed he missed big, and the player is no longer in the league.
overall draft number for each player. I'm thinking the Panthers drafted lower in most of those comparisons. Top 15 players should turn out better than players drafted in 20-31 range.
I was thinking the same thing. Over those years, did the Giants pick above the panthers? below? by how much? If the Giants picked above the Panthers, then an equal outcome is not equal.
people laugh at Bobby Hart, but he's actually a good draft pick. He's far from a legit NFL starter, but he competes for a starting job and he's put together a few decent performances. He's doing exactly what a 7th round draft pick should and then some. Most 7th rounders are out of the league after a year.
I disagree. The fact that he is even on the team screams how poorly we have done drafting. Hart is horrible at Tackle and doesn't appear to be a Guard either. Hart should not be on the active roster at all. He is absolutely awful.
He is a 3rd year player who was drafted in the 7th round. Ideally, he is your 8th-9th lineman on the team. Once in awhile, you luck out and come up with a good starter in that position.
- Having Hart on your team isn't the issue.
- Having Hart as a starter is more problematic.
- Going into this year without providing him with any competition is a fireable offense.
people laugh at Bobby Hart, but he's actually a good draft pick. He's far from a legit NFL starter, but he competes for a starting job and he's put together a few decent performances. He's doing exactly what a 7th round draft pick should and then some. Most 7th rounders are out of the league after a year.
Agree with other responders. We're spinning bad-to-mediocre as a victory with Hart and the OLine play in general.
overall draft number for each player. I'm thinking the Panthers drafted lower in most of those comparisons. Top 15 players should turn out better than players drafted in 20-31 range.
Agreed. Adding where each team drafted within a round would have helped the analysis.
The one other thing that stands out is that when Gettleman "missed" he missed small. The player may not be a starter but he's generally still in the league. When Reese missed he missed big, and the player is no longer in the league.
Let's go ahead and do that now and add the records of each team going into that draft.
2013
Carolina (7-9 in 2012)
#14, #44, #108, #148, #182
NY Giants (9-7 in 2012)
#19, #49, #81, #110, #152, #225, #253
2014
Carolina (12-4 in 2013)
#28, #60, #92, #128, #148, #204
NY Giants (7-9 in 2013)
#12, #43, #74, #113, #152, #174, #187
2015
Carolina (7-8-1 in 2014)
#25, #41, #102, #169, #174
NY Giants (6-10 in 2014)
#9, #33, #74, #144, #186, #226
2016
Carolina (15-1 in 2015)
#30, #62, #77, #141, #152
NY Giants (6-10 in 2015)
#10, #40, #71, #109, #149, #184
people laugh at Bobby Hart, but he's actually a good draft pick. He's far from a legit NFL starter, but he competes for a starting job and he's put together a few decent performances. He's doing exactly what a 7th round draft pick should and then some. Most 7th rounders are out of the league after a year.
I disagree. The fact that he is even on the team screams how poorly we have done drafting. Hart is horrible at Tackle and doesn't appear to be a Guard either. Hart should not be on the active roster at all. He is absolutely awful.
I disagree....there is some decent tape on him. And I thought he actually held is own most of the game last week against Demarcus Lawrence....who leads in the NFL in sacks. There is plent of bad tape on him as well, but there is way too much drama on him. Part of it is, he called himself "the best tackle in football", which of course has drawn major negative attention to him. Again, by no means am I saying he's a good player....he's not, but I'd be willing to be he sticks on an NFL roster for the next few years. And let's say he lasts 6 years in the NFL...for a 7th round draft pick; that's an accomplishment.
I think Hart is probably great for depth on almost any team. Not a starter, but I think if you have an average to decent line, Hart could come in and start a few games and be ok.
Problem with our team is that we have a terrible line and there isn't much around him to shore up his weaknesses.
I think Hart is probably great for depth on almost any team. Not a starter, but I think if you have an average to decent line, Hart could come in and start a few games and be ok.
Problem with our team is that we have a terrible line and there isn't much around him to shore up his weaknesses.
I agree with that. And for a 7th rounder....that's what you want.
if the players he drafted three years ago are still in the NFL, but not with Carolina? Reese has gotten nailed for players no longer being with the team, but because Tre Boston developed with the Chargers, that goes on Gettleman's belt?
I still think that GM's take too much heat and also gain too much praise over draft picks as I think picks are made somewhat collaboratively by an organization, but 27 out of 28 picks still being in the NFL is pretty remarkable. The draft is such a crap shoot. The DT Vernon Butler pick by Gettleman is really his only head scratcher while in Carolina.
I see this comment a lot — “the draft is a crap shoot.” No, it isn’t. Some teams are consistently good at drafting talent. Some are consistently bad. The rest are on the spectrum in between with up and down drafts year to year.
The teams that draft well are consistently in the playoffs. If the Giants want to get back on track, that should be the priority.
Hart would no longer be on the team if Reese drafted better linemen Â
Just keep in mind that Lotulelei fell in his lap. Lotulelei was projected to go in the top 10 and Carolina's biggest need at the time was at DT. Kawan Short in round 2 was a great pick but once again a great player fell in his lap at a position of need.
Appears Reese "won" only when his early picks were more successful Â
Reese undervalued certain position in the draft: RB, TE, OL
not so much LB either. Heavy on DL and D-backs.
Gettleman had better talent at TE and RB in particular to make things a little easier for him but the lack high consistent OL picks worries me.
pick "falls into somebody's lap", how can that be held against them?
People had to not draft the player and the GM still had to pick the player.
Just the selection of Trai Turner should be a reason to give props at recognizing OL talent.
I am not holding it against them I was just stating that it wasn't some difficult decision to make. Trai Turner was a great gamble. I wanted the Giants to take him in that draft. The only knock on him at the time was his size.
is that the people who drafted him SAID HE'S A GUARD AT THE NFL LEVEL. And the Coaching staff always played him at OT. THAT'S A DISCONNECT. Same with Pugh -- drafted as an OT, and played at OG by the Coaches. The scouts and coaches have to be on the same page. They haven't been.
As for Hart himself, if he can ever get a look at OG, he might be OK, or he might be depth.
People who EXPECT a starter from a 7th round pick, aren't realistic.
people laugh at Bobby Hart, but he's actually a good draft pick. He's far from a legit NFL starter, but he competes for a starting job and he's put together a few decent performances. He's doing exactly what a 7th round draft pick should and then some. Most 7th rounders are out of the league after a year.
If he got released, I don't think there would be more than 2 teams that would look at him
Just keep in mind that Lotulelei fell in his lap. Lotulelei was projected to go in the top 10 and Carolina's biggest need at the time was at DT. Kawan Short in round 2 was a great pick but once again a great player fell in his lap at a position of need.
You still have to pick the player. Tonsil fell into Reese's lap, and instead he picked Eli Apple.
Gettleman has drafted a Pro Bowl lineman, as well as a couple LB's better than we've seen in NY.
And some of those guys he drafted in later rounds. Just to emphasize the point that the Giants do NOT and SHOULD NOT reach for an OL at the 2nd pick. That pick should be a dynamic player like Barkley or a QB or other skill position if a stud is out there. OL SHOULD BE gathered in later rounds. Drafting one that high is usually a waste.
Just keep in mind that Lotulelei fell in his lap. Lotulelei was projected to go in the top 10 and Carolina's biggest need at the time was at DT. Kawan Short in round 2 was a great pick but once again a great player fell in his lap at a position of need.
You still have to pick the player. Tonsil fell into Reese's lap, and instead he picked Eli Apple.
Just keep in mind that Lotulelei fell in his lap. Lotulelei was projected to go in the top 10 and Carolina's biggest need at the time was at DT. Kawan Short in round 2 was a great pick but once again a great player fell in his lap at a position of need.
You still have to pick the player. Tonsil fell into Reese's lap, and instead he picked Eli Apple.
Jerry is very good at drafting WRs. Gettleman appears to have a good eye for OL and has been better in the mid rounds
.
Yeah, but Jerry was very bad in Rounds 3-7. His 3rd round record is downright laughable!
It doesn't take much to draft better than Jerry Reese.
Marc Ross also needs to go, when the next GM is hired.
Gettlemen better in the later rounds, the meat and potatoes positions. He actually got a pro bowl guard in the third!
I think we can do better, but his hiring would allow us to keep some of the good parts of our scouting department. I hope, Ross is shown the way out the door, along with some of the scouts that haven't produced evaluations that find the mark.
I’m not defending Hart. Although he played well in brief spurts, for the most part he’s been awful. That said, if not for injuries, Pugh and Fluker should be starting so Hart should be the backup,
To my point though, if you’re old enough to remember some team history, Corey Webster and Amani Toomer were horrible their first few years and both were 2nd round picks. I think Webster went 3 full years doing nothing and was often enough a healthy scratch. He played in his 4th year only because of injuries to the starter and backup and played well and never looked back. Toomer had 2 bad years before turning it on.
Hart was a 20 year old 7th round pick. If he didn’t make the best RT comment, he’d be better off. I was impressed that he stayed in NY last year after the season working out with Flowers no easy task for Florida kids. I’m willing to wait. That said, I want to see OTs in the draft or free agency but Hart may turn it around
is that you could do this for every GM in the league, and probably find the same up and down results. Reese's track record as a GM is much more impressive than John Dorsey, yet Reese just got canned and Dorsey is somehow considered the savior for Cleveland. Winning in this league over time is about:
1) QB play
2) Coaching
We had a HOF QB and coach for 12 seasons in a row and won two Super Bowls. Reese made some great picks during that time, also made some awful ones. Gettleman made some great picks for Carolina, also some awful ones. But they have a good HC who players respond to, and a very talented QB who when he's on, there's not much better.
Agreed. Adding where each team drafted within a round would have helped the analysis.
The one other thing that stands out is that when Gettleman "missed" he missed small. The player may not be a starter but he's generally still in the league. When Reese missed he missed big, and the player is no longer in the league.
I was thinking the same thing. Over those years, did the Giants pick above the panthers? below? by how much? If the Giants picked above the Panthers, then an equal outcome is not equal.
I disagree. The fact that he is even on the team screams how poorly we have done drafting. Hart is horrible at Tackle and doesn't appear to be a Guard either. Hart should not be on the active roster at all. He is absolutely awful.
- Having Hart on your team isn't the issue.
- Having Hart as a starter is more problematic.
- Going into this year without providing him with any competition is a fireable offense.
Agree with other responders. We're spinning bad-to-mediocre as a victory with Hart and the OLine play in general.
Quote:
overall draft number for each player. I'm thinking the Panthers drafted lower in most of those comparisons. Top 15 players should turn out better than players drafted in 20-31 range.
Agreed. Adding where each team drafted within a round would have helped the analysis.
The one other thing that stands out is that when Gettleman "missed" he missed small. The player may not be a starter but he's generally still in the league. When Reese missed he missed big, and the player is no longer in the league.
Let's go ahead and do that now and add the records of each team going into that draft.
2013
Carolina (7-9 in 2012)
#14, #44, #108, #148, #182
NY Giants (9-7 in 2012)
#19, #49, #81, #110, #152, #225, #253
2014
Carolina (12-4 in 2013)
#28, #60, #92, #128, #148, #204
NY Giants (7-9 in 2013)
#12, #43, #74, #113, #152, #174, #187
2015
Carolina (7-8-1 in 2014)
#25, #41, #102, #169, #174
NY Giants (6-10 in 2014)
#9, #33, #74, #144, #186, #226
2016
Carolina (15-1 in 2015)
#30, #62, #77, #141, #152
NY Giants (6-10 in 2015)
#10, #40, #71, #109, #149, #184
2017
Carolina (6-10 in 2016)
#8, #40, #64, #77, #152, #192, #233
NY Giants (11-5 in 2016)
#23, #55, #87, #140, #167, #200
So if you break it down further when it comes to having picks in the Top 20, 40, 60, 80 and 100, here is what it looks like
Top 20
Carolina - 2
NY Giants - 4
Top 40
Carolina - 6
NY Giants - 7
Top 60
Carolina - 9
NY Giants - 10
Top 80
Carolina - 11
NY Giants - 13
Top 100
Carolina - 14
NY Giants - 15
Quote:
people laugh at Bobby Hart, but he's actually a good draft pick. He's far from a legit NFL starter, but he competes for a starting job and he's put together a few decent performances. He's doing exactly what a 7th round draft pick should and then some. Most 7th rounders are out of the league after a year.
I disagree. The fact that he is even on the team screams how poorly we have done drafting. Hart is horrible at Tackle and doesn't appear to be a Guard either. Hart should not be on the active roster at all. He is absolutely awful.
I disagree....there is some decent tape on him. And I thought he actually held is own most of the game last week against Demarcus Lawrence....who leads in the NFL in sacks. There is plent of bad tape on him as well, but there is way too much drama on him. Part of it is, he called himself "the best tackle in football", which of course has drawn major negative attention to him. Again, by no means am I saying he's a good player....he's not, but I'd be willing to be he sticks on an NFL roster for the next few years. And let's say he lasts 6 years in the NFL...for a 7th round draft pick; that's an accomplishment.
Problem with our team is that we have a terrible line and there isn't much around him to shore up his weaknesses.
Problem with our team is that we have a terrible line and there isn't much around him to shore up his weaknesses.
I agree with that. And for a 7th rounder....that's what you want.
Not good.
Not good.
If they're injured, why is that on the GM?
I see this comment a lot — “the draft is a crap shoot.” No, it isn’t. Some teams are consistently good at drafting talent. Some are consistently bad. The rest are on the spectrum in between with up and down drafts year to year.
The teams that draft well are consistently in the playoffs. If the Giants want to get back on track, that should be the priority.
- O.O. Sintim, Demontre Moore, Awesome, and many other examples at both DT and DE.
Our best D line player by far, and not coincidentally, our largest , Damon Harrison , a free agent from the Jets...
In a true comparison, I think the pick ranking also needs to be taken into account, but I don't know how you would do that and have it meaningful.
The league had our number; At every position, every unit, the giants were light in the britches. Narrow assed. Push overs.
I am pushing a line centric GM/HC combo.
not so much LB either. Heavy on DL and D-backs.
Gettleman had better talent at TE and RB in particular to make things a little easier for him but the lack high consistent OL picks worries me.
People had to not draft the player and the GM still had to pick the player.
Just the selection of Trai Turner should be a reason to give props at recognizing OL talent.
People had to not draft the player and the GM still had to pick the player.
Just the selection of Trai Turner should be a reason to give props at recognizing OL talent.
I am not holding it against them I was just stating that it wasn't some difficult decision to make. Trai Turner was a great gamble. I wanted the Giants to take him in that draft. The only knock on him at the time was his size.
As for Hart himself, if he can ever get a look at OG, he might be OK, or he might be depth.
People who EXPECT a starter from a 7th round pick, aren't realistic.
If he got released, I don't think there would be more than 2 teams that would look at him
You still have to pick the player. Tonsil fell into Reese's lap, and instead he picked Eli Apple.
And some of those guys he drafted in later rounds. Just to emphasize the point that the Giants do NOT and SHOULD NOT reach for an OL at the 2nd pick. That pick should be a dynamic player like Barkley or a QB or other skill position if a stud is out there. OL SHOULD BE gathered in later rounds. Drafting one that high is usually a waste.
Quote:
Just keep in mind that Lotulelei fell in his lap. Lotulelei was projected to go in the top 10 and Carolina's biggest need at the time was at DT. Kawan Short in round 2 was a great pick but once again a great player fell in his lap at a position of need.
You still have to pick the player. Tonsil fell into Reese's lap, and instead he picked Eli Apple.
Pretty sure ownership took Tunsil off the board.
Certainly seems solid, and you definitely have to like the emphasis up front on both sides of the ball.
However, Odell Beckham and Landon Collins are far and away the best players of the entire group.
Quote:
Just keep in mind that Lotulelei fell in his lap. Lotulelei was projected to go in the top 10 and Carolina's biggest need at the time was at DT. Kawan Short in round 2 was a great pick but once again a great player fell in his lap at a position of need.
You still have to pick the player. Tonsil fell into Reese's lap, and instead he picked Eli Apple.
This^
I don't buy the "fell in the lap argument".
Yeah, but Jerry was very bad in Rounds 3-7. His 3rd round record is downright laughable!
It doesn't take much to draft better than Jerry Reese.
Marc Ross also needs to go, when the next GM is hired.
And they loose track of that it's really about winning the 16 games, who gets you ready to do that.
Linesmen both sides and linebackers at the moment. Running backs.
I think we can do better, but his hiring would allow us to keep some of the good parts of our scouting department. I hope, Ross is shown the way out the door, along with some of the scouts that haven't produced evaluations that find the mark.
We need some renewal here.
To my point though, if you’re old enough to remember some team history, Corey Webster and Amani Toomer were horrible their first few years and both were 2nd round picks. I think Webster went 3 full years doing nothing and was often enough a healthy scratch. He played in his 4th year only because of injuries to the starter and backup and played well and never looked back. Toomer had 2 bad years before turning it on.
Hart was a 20 year old 7th round pick. If he didn’t make the best RT comment, he’d be better off. I was impressed that he stayed in NY last year after the season working out with Flowers no easy task for Florida kids. I’m willing to wait. That said, I want to see OTs in the draft or free agency but Hart may turn it around
1) QB play
2) Coaching
We had a HOF QB and coach for 12 seasons in a row and won two Super Bowls. Reese made some great picks during that time, also made some awful ones. Gettleman made some great picks for Carolina, also some awful ones. But they have a good HC who players respond to, and a very talented QB who when he's on, there's not much better.