Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner
 

Archived Thread

Why even consider keep Eli next year.....

Blue Angel : 12/14/2017 10:03 am
He is at best an average QB...In the past two seasons the offense has been putrid, and he DOES have some blame on his part about that....Is it going to take Davis Webb TWO YEARS to sit in the bench and learn. The Giants can save 20 million or so and invest it on the Offensive Line....I thought that it was THE QUARTERBACK COACH'S job that was suppose to train these young QBs not a 20 million dollar QB
that has seen better days and regressing at that. And when the Giants are 2-7 next season and they bench Eli for a younger QB....World War Three will occur again without the help of KIM, Yong Un....Is Eli running this Organization or what?????
Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
RE: RE: RE: amazing..building a team around door. a. 37 year old  
Britt in VA : 12/14/2017 1:35 pm : link
In comment 13740471 micky said:
Quote:
In comment 13740417 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13740415 micky said:


Quote:


qb



English please?



so anal aren't you?


Please explain to me how building a strong offensive line and solid running game is akin to building around a 37 year old QB rather than just sound roster building philosophy?
If Eli was average at best  
djm : 12/14/2017 1:40 pm : link
his numbers would look even worse than they did from 2014-2017. HE's better than average he's just not Aaron Rodgers. Give Eli a good running game and he'd do just fine.
and lest we forget  
djm : 12/14/2017 1:44 pm : link
Eli will still play well in big games.

I'll say it again and again. GIVE ELI A RUNNING GAME! Trust me....I promise you if this team found a good to great running attack Eli would clean up. He wouldn't be perfect he's never been perfect but he will win. He might still throw two INTS that look terrible but he will also throw 3 TDs and win the games.

Give. Eli. A. Running Game. He never loses more than 8 games in a season if the running game is there. Never. And he usually wins 9 or more.

With the pass catchers this team has at its disposal the Giants need to focus all their resources on the ground game. Fix the OL and add a RB and this team will win. The D isn't that bad.

I agree with the OP ...  
DonQuixote : 12/14/2017 1:49 pm : link
... if you are not part of the future, you are in the way.

Love Eli Manning, want him on the team, but that is a lot of money for a stopgap QB.

If the front office feels that we are not contenders next year, and I don't think we are, then what is the point?
RE: RE: You can't be serious!  
KingBlue : 12/14/2017 1:52 pm : link
In comment 13740033 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13740028 Doomster said:


Quote:


I am sooo sick of hearing this
superspynyg : 10:23 am : link : reply
Eli is still the same qb he was in the past



Don't take his word for it:

Kevin Gilbride:



Quote:


Gilbride said flatly that ďI do not see a significant dropoffĒ in Manningís play.

ďWhat I know is this guyís going to be prepared. Heíll always be as selfless, as hard working, as professional as you could ask anybody to be. When I do watch him on film I see a guy whoís arm strength is still the same.

ďAs Iíve said on numerous occasions will never and never has solved problems with his feet. Heís not gonna do that. He can solve it with his arm, he can solve it with his brains, he can solve it with his heart. But, if youíre asking this guy to solve problems because of difficulty with protection and what have you with his feet youíve got the wrong guy. Thatís not who he is.Ē



Greg Cosell:



Quote:


Cosell on Eli the player: ďItís a bad offense, and has been for a while, and thereís many factors that go into that, and the QB bears the brunt of it. Thatís just the reality of life in the NFL. I would say that itís a team with a poor OL. Itís a team that canít run the football, and Eli is a Ďdependentí QB Ė Eli is dependent on the rest of the team to be successful. So right now, the Ďdependentí parts are totally lacking, and he canít be successful on any kind of consistent basis. Itís not a function of if heís lost his ability to throw a football, heís not lost his ability to understand the game and control a game at the line of scrimmage. Heís not lost his ability, but his style of QBíing...heís a Ďdependentí player. Thereís nothing for him to depend on right now within an offense thatís bad in every single area.Ē



Sy'56:



Quote:


Eli Manning: 31/46 Ė 228 yards Ė 1 TD/2 INT. The two interceptions at the end of the game have an asterisk next to them. It was desperation time and he had to force things. The drops by Shepard and Lewis were killers and, at this point, both inexcusable but expected, ironically. Manning didnít have a lot of ďminusĒ throws and he just doesnít have time to go through a lot of reads. This truly has become the worst situation in the league for any QB to work with from what I have seen.

"This truly has become the worst situation in the league for any QB to work with."



John Mara:



Quote:


"I'm concerned about our team. We still think he can play. We obviously have to get better around him."



John Gruden, when asked if he'd come back to coach the Giants, said "I would consider it if Eli Manning was there.

When the professionals give their evaluation of what's wrong, it's not hard to see the common denominator. It's not Eli's ability.

And before someboyd inevitably zeros in with laser like focus on the "dependent player" thing from Cosell, Eli has always been that. We have not put the players around him to succeed for the past five years, and THAT is the difference. THAT is the problem, and THAT is why Jerry Reese is fired. They did not build around their franchise QB's strengths. Gilbride said it himself. ďAs Iíve said on numerous occasions will never and never has solved problems with his feet. Heís not gonna do that. He can solve it with his arm, he can solve it with his brains, he can solve it with his heart. But, if youíre asking this guy to solve problems because of difficulty with protection and what have you with his feet youíve got the wrong guy. Thatís not who he is.Ē Yet we built and installed an offense that relied on just that. Even worse that we did it in Eli's prime years. It's easy to go back to 2013 and see Jerry Reese deflecting from his poor job of building an offensive line with the "skittish" comments, and then to McAdoo's constant criticisms of "having to play in dirty pockets", or the other excuse that line play is poor around the league. It's all bullsh-t. We knew what he could and couldn't do and we did not put a team around him that supported those strengths. And we still haven't. Hopefully the new coach and GM will do that if he decides to stay.

And it doesn't have to be ALL WORLD TALENT everywhere as some will use hyperbole to state. But it has to be at least competent, and we have not had that.

Now you can whine and complain about Eli lovers, apologists, declines, salaries, etc.... But the truth is right in front of you if you want to see it.



This +1
RE: and lest we forget  
Thegratefulhead : 12/14/2017 1:54 pm : link
In comment 13740517 djm said:
Quote:
Eli will still play well in big games.

I'll say it again and again. GIVE ELI A RUNNING GAME! Trust me....I promise you if this team found a good to great running attack Eli would clean up. He wouldn't be perfect he's never been perfect but he will win. He might still throw two INTS that look terrible but he will also throw 3 TDs and win the games.

Give. Eli. A. Running Game. He never loses more than 8 games in a season if the running game is there. Never. And he usually wins 9 or more.

With the pass catchers this team has at its disposal the Giants need to focus all their resources on the ground game. Fix the OL and add a RB and this team will win. The D isn't that bad.


The stats do not back that up. He has been in decline. It not typical for a 37 year old QB to start playing better, they get worse. He has not scored more than 30 points in 2 years. Trade or cut Eli, invest the savings and or draft picks into the OL and let young player learn. Much better for the immediate and more distant future of the franchise. Or continue overpaying for Eli and field a 2 win franchise.
Yet in 2015 they scored over 30 points seven times...  
Britt in VA : 12/14/2017 1:55 pm : link
including nearly 50 points in one game.

Then Coughlin was fired and McAdoo took over. But yeah, I'm sure it's Eli.
Let me see....  
Britt in VA : 12/14/2017 1:59 pm : link
who should I defer to when I'm trying to get an honest evaluation/snapshot of a player's current abilities?

Kevin Gilbride, Greg Cosell, Jon Gruden, John Mara, Pat Kirwan, Bill Polian, Gil Brandt, or even BBI's own Sy'56?

Or thegratefulhead?

Gonna have to think about that one awhile....
Itís not building a team around him to win next year or even in 2019  
PetesHereNow : 12/14/2017 2:00 pm : link
If you donít fix the lack of an offensive line and credible running game, a young draft pick isnít succeeding in that situation either. The best thing to do for the future of the team is to a) get a coach/GM in here that knows how to build a team from the lines out, and b) let Eli start for another year or two and then hand it over to a Webb/young QB who wonít get their ass kicked from snap 1.

The supporting cast stinks. The offensive scheme stinks. The linebackers suck other than Goodson who cannot stay healthy. Just inserting Josh Rosen or Sam Darnold or Baker Mayfield does not fix anything. On the list of things wrong with this team, Eliís decline is on there but it is like number 13 on a list of 20.
RE: Itís not building a team around him to win next year or even in 2019  
Britt in VA : 12/14/2017 2:01 pm : link
In comment 13740543 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:
If you donít fix the lack of an offensive line and credible running game, a young draft pick isnít succeeding in that situation either. The best thing to do for the future of the team is to a) get a coach/GM in here that knows how to build a team from the lines out, and b) let Eli start for another year or two and then hand it over to a Webb/young QB who wonít get their ass kicked from snap 1.

The supporting cast stinks. The offensive scheme stinks. The linebackers suck other than Goodson who cannot stay healthy. Just inserting Josh Rosen or Sam Darnold or Baker Mayfield does not fix anything. On the list of things wrong with this team, Eliís decline is on there but it is like number 13 on a list of 20.


It's so simple, I don't see why others can't see this.
RE: Yet in 2015 they scored over 30 points seven times...  
Thegratefulhead : 12/14/2017 2:04 pm : link
In comment 13740533 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
including nearly 50 points in one game.

Then Coughlin was fired and McAdoo took over. But yeah, I'm sure it's Eli.
I sure his decline in efficiency over the last 5 years should be ignored. We should expect his play to resort to his best level in the last five years because of the large history of NFL QBs playing better at 37 than they did at age 35 and 36 Of coarse it is reasonable to expect him to play at 37 like he did at 34. For fuck's sake.
Dude, you cherry pick stats and twist and turn them to fit some sort  
Britt in VA : 12/14/2017 2:07 pm : link
of weird narrative of decline, when pretty much every expert on the subject takes the opposite stance.

You're hanging your hat on some single stat of efficiency over the past five years, which by the way, Eli is sandwiched right in between Aaron Rodgers and Matt Ryan in, and guys like Alex Smith and Tyrod Taylor rank higher than Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers to prove your point.

In 2015, Eli Manning threw for 35 TD's and 4400 yards. Good for 2nd and 6th in the NFL respectively, and you're trying to lump that in as some sort of down year....

You are the posterboy right now for misusing advanced metrics.
gratefulhead  
djm : 12/14/2017 2:09 pm : link
you glossed over the entire point. That Eli didn't have a running game in 2014-2016 and yet in 14-15 his stats were good. Go figure.

It's awfully convenient and easy to say Eli is in decline but take a look at the offense around him. The offense is worse, not Eli.

Give Eli a running game and everything improves. I guarantee it. Eli is a play action QB that is adept at reading defenses. That's his game. So what do the Giants do? Add more and more receivers and all but ignore the OL and RBs. Brilliant.

Eli will win if the Giants can run the ball. I will bet anyone here as much money as you want. I will fund money to my paypal account right now and bet anyone here that if the Giants rush for over 1800 yards in 2018 and Eli is the QB that the Giants win at least 8-9 games without even looking at the WRs or defense. Now, you could say the same thing about most QBs possibly, but find me a QB that will deliver like Eli can in the big spot. There's the rub.

Keep Eli. Fix the running game. Win.
Look, it is impossible to judge Eli right now.  
GiantGrit : 12/14/2017 2:09 pm : link
Why? As Britt pointed out, we have THE WORST offensive scheme in the league. Our offense is the foundation of a house, but most of the wood is rotting. There is no saving the foundation. You need to completely rebuild it, especially for longevity.

I have more so been on the side that Eli is declining. The truth of the matter is, we really do not know because
1) the scheme does not fit his strengths
2) O-line is way too inconsistent and there is not enough commitment to the run game. Eli has always been a good play action quarterback. If you ask him to throw the ball 35-40 times a game, we will continue to suck.

I love Mayfield, but i don't see the Giants picking a scheme that fits his strengths. I think Rosen should be their guy. Contrary to popular belief, letting a rookie come in and sit is still a good way to go. Let's get back to Giants football. under center, let the RUN GAME open up the PASS, not vice versa. Give Eli another 1-2 years, hand the keys to Rosen.
CHerrypicking  
Thegratefulhead : 12/14/2017 2:10 pm : link
Holy shit man, You are taking his best 2 stats in the last 5 years and saying ...that is Eli. You are a clown if you are accusing me of cherry picking. Eli has show a decline in stats over the last 5 years. You are the one hanging on the outlier.
correction  
djm : 12/14/2017 2:10 pm : link
not MOST QBS. Many. But not most.

Just fix the fucking running game.
RE: gratefulhead  
GiantGrit : 12/14/2017 2:11 pm : link
In comment 13740559 djm said:
Quote:
you glossed over the entire point. That Eli didn't have a running game in 2014-2016 and yet in 14-15 his stats were good. Go figure.

It's awfully convenient and easy to say Eli is in decline but take a look at the offense around him. The offense is worse, not Eli.

Give Eli a running game and everything improves. I guarantee it. Eli is a play action QB that is adept at reading defenses. That's his game. So what do the Giants do? Add more and more receivers and all but ignore the OL and RBs. Brilliant.

Eli will win if the Giants can run the ball. I will bet anyone here as much money as you want. I will fund money to my paypal account right now and bet anyone here that if the Giants rush for over 1800 yards in 2018 and Eli is the QB that the Giants win at least 8-9 games without even looking at the WRs or defense. Now, you could say the same thing about most QBs possibly, but find me a QB that will deliver like Eli can in the big spot. There's the rub.

Keep Eli. Fix the running game. Win.


Didn't see you comment right before me but you really hit my point. In an offense with Eli, the running game is what makes things go. Give him a good running game, open the PA opportunities and we'll be ok.
RE: gratefulhead  
Thegratefulhead : 12/14/2017 2:13 pm : link
In comment 13740559 djm said:
Quote:
you glossed over the entire point. That Eli didn't have a running game in 2014-2016 and yet in 14-15 his stats were good. Go figure.

It's awfully convenient and easy to say Eli is in decline but take a look at the offense around him. The offense is worse, not Eli.

Give Eli a running game and everything improves. I guarantee it. Eli is a play action QB that is adept at reading defenses. That's his game. So what do the Giants do? Add more and more receivers and all but ignore the OL and RBs. Brilliant.

Eli will win if the Giants can run the ball. I will bet anyone here as much money as you want. I will fund money to my paypal account right now and bet anyone here that if the Giants rush for over 1800 yards in 2018 and Eli is the QB that the Giants win at least 8-9 games without even looking at the WRs or defense. Now, you could say the same thing about most QBs possibly, but find me a QB that will deliver like Eli can in the big spot. There's the rub.

Keep Eli. Fix the running game. Win.
Give ANY QB an 1800 yds running game and they will do well. Why not a young one, that you pay far less than 20 million a year?
RE: RE: gratefulhead  
djm : 12/14/2017 2:18 pm : link
In comment 13740578 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 13740559 djm said:


Quote:


you glossed over the entire point. That Eli didn't have a running game in 2014-2016 and yet in 14-15 his stats were good. Go figure.

It's awfully convenient and easy to say Eli is in decline but take a look at the offense around him. The offense is worse, not Eli.

Give Eli a running game and everything improves. I guarantee it. Eli is a play action QB that is adept at reading defenses. That's his game. So what do the Giants do? Add more and more receivers and all but ignore the OL and RBs. Brilliant.

Eli will win if the Giants can run the ball. I will bet anyone here as much money as you want. I will fund money to my paypal account right now and bet anyone here that if the Giants rush for over 1800 yards in 2018 and Eli is the QB that the Giants win at least 8-9 games without even looking at the WRs or defense. Now, you could say the same thing about most QBs possibly, but find me a QB that will deliver like Eli can in the big spot. There's the rub.

Keep Eli. Fix the running game. Win.

Give ANY QB an 1800 yds running game and they will do well. Why not a young one, that you pay far less than 20 million a year?


That's not true. And even if some of it is true how many of those QBs would play like an animal in the biggest of games? Not that many.

Dave Brown and Kent Graham had a running game. How'd they do? How did Kerry Collins do with a running game? He was ok....but you telling me Eli wouldn't do better? I think that's nuts.

Eli would have this team in position to make postseason noise. Is it that foolish to take a shot with Eli AND A RUNNING GAME for one more postseason here?

Plus if you cut Eli you're eating cap room. Keep him, groom the young QB(s) and let Eli's contract expire on its own. NOTHING wrong with that. Nothing.
Haha, okay, I'm the clown....  
Britt in VA : 12/14/2017 2:18 pm : link
nobody has agreed with you, and several have pointed out the flaws in your reasoning.

You're the one on the island, but I'm the clown.

I hear the GM position is open, maybe you should throw your name in the hat?
Forget all the stats  
Thegratefulhead : 12/14/2017 2:18 pm : link
Right now and the next 2 years do you believe Eli's production and efficiency will justify his 20 million dollar salary? Be honest.
If they give him some protection and a running game, yes I do.  
Britt in VA : 12/14/2017 2:19 pm : link
.
plus  
djm : 12/14/2017 2:21 pm : link
Eli's contract isn't even 20 mil per anymore. I don't think it is anyway.

And can we not talk about the money for once? Who cares. The Giants can make it work.

If the Giants fix this team and bring in a QB that can lead them, wouldn't you want this veteran laden team to have Eli at the helm in January of next season? How is that a bad thing? The young QB isn't going anywhere and if he's THAT good no one will care if he sat for a year.

I don't see any negatives to keeping Eli with a young hot shot QB on the roster. Cutting Eli isn't that desirable at all and then it puts all this pressure on the kid to develop overnight. What's the rush?
RE: Haha, okay, I'm the clown....  
Thegratefulhead : 12/14/2017 2:23 pm : link
In comment 13740586 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
nobody has agreed with you, and several have pointed out the flaws in your reasoning.

You're the one on the island, but I'm the clown.

I hear the GM position is open, maybe you should throw your name in the hat?
Just because homers on a fan site don't agree with me does not make me wrong. You are committing a fallacy in your reasoning(ad populum). You are cherry picking his best stats in the last five years to support your argument. His efficiency does not justify his salary in a league with a cap at the end of hs playing career. It would be wise to replace him with a younger player earning less that has the potential to improve. It is VERY reasonable to expect Eli to get worse.
if you're gonna compare Eli to the sexy list of star QBs  
djm : 12/14/2017 2:26 pm : link
his salary might bother some, but who the hell cares. The guy has earned his financial tenure. If the Giants are playing well and Eli in 2018, running the ball well, playing sound D and getting just enough out of Eli, you're telling me THAT team wouldn't be a threat in January? Would anyone give two fucking fucks how much Eli was earning if his 15th ranked QB rating and the 10-6 Giants are walking into Philly for a playoff game? Anyone here want to doubt that giants team with Eli at the helm? Please...I dare you you to doubt that team.

Eli isn't perfect. He's got his flaws. But he's not much different than the guy that played in 2012. He's still durable. Can still spin it with the best of them. Still wants to win. What has changed since then? The Giants have fielded the worst running game in all of football. Eli can't control that.

Do you guys ever learn?  
HomerJones45 : 12/14/2017 2:27 pm : link
you move on from a championship quarterbacks for one of four reasons. This has been the case throughout at least the last 50 years:

1) he can't stay healthy
2) his arm is shot
3) you have a bona fide championship caliber qb behind him
4) he retires

That's it. These guys are too rare to voluntarily put yourself in the position of having to find another championship qb unless it is for one of these reasons. You want to pick a qb #1 to sit and learn for a year or two, great and prudent, but you don't let a championship qb go unless it is for one of these reasons.

it took the Steelers 20 years to replace Bradshaw during which they squandered some good teams with bad quarterbacking. The Dolphins haven't replaced Marino in 18 years and the Niners haven't replaced Steve Young in 18 years.

So think carefully before you decide to "move on" because the qb "isn't what he once was."
RE: RE: Haha, okay, I'm the clown....  
Britt in VA : 12/14/2017 2:33 pm : link
In comment 13740611 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 13740586 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


nobody has agreed with you, and several have pointed out the flaws in your reasoning.

You're the one on the island, but I'm the clown.

I hear the GM position is open, maybe you should throw your name in the hat?

Just because homers on a fan site don't agree with me does not make me wrong. You are committing a fallacy in your reasoning(ad populum). You are cherry picking his best stats in the last five years to support your argument. His efficiency does not justify his salary in a league with a cap at the end of hs playing career. It would be wise to replace him with a younger player earning less that has the potential to improve. It is VERY reasonable to expect Eli to get worse.


Kevin Gilbride. Greg Cosell. John Mara. Bill Polian. Gil Brandt. Pat Kirwan. All guys who have been quoted in the past two weeks as saying Eli has the same ability, but the team around him stinks.

Homers on a website?
RE: if you're gonna compare Eli to the sexy list of star QBs  
Thegratefulhead : 12/14/2017 2:33 pm : link
In comment 13740620 djm said:
Quote:
his salary might bother some, but who the hell cares. The guy has earned his financial tenure. If the Giants are playing well and Eli in 2018, running the ball well, playing sound D and getting just enough out of Eli, you're telling me THAT team wouldn't be a threat in January? Would anyone give two fucking fucks how much Eli was earning if his 15th ranked QB rating and the 10-6 Giants are walking into Philly for a playoff game? Anyone here want to doubt that giants team with Eli at the helm? Please...I dare you you to doubt that team.

Eli isn't perfect. He's got his flaws. But he's not much different than the guy that played in 2012. He's still durable. Can still spin it with the best of them. Still wants to win. What has changed since then? The Giants have fielded the worst running game in all of football. Eli can't control that.
When he was younger he could carry a team that could not run. He is not that guy anymore. Geno looked at least the same. You are basing your arguments on emotion, outlier stats and love of Eli. When you remove emotion and the look at the entire last 5 years, salary, age and history of QBs playing past 35 once they start to decline the evidence is strongly against Eli getting better.
RE: RE: gratefulhead  
GiantGrit : 12/14/2017 2:35 pm : link
In comment 13740578 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 13740559 djm said:


Quote:


you glossed over the entire point. That Eli didn't have a running game in 2014-2016 and yet in 14-15 his stats were good. Go figure.

It's awfully convenient and easy to say Eli is in decline but take a look at the offense around him. The offense is worse, not Eli.

Give Eli a running game and everything improves. I guarantee it. Eli is a play action QB that is adept at reading defenses. That's his game. So what do the Giants do? Add more and more receivers and all but ignore the OL and RBs. Brilliant.

Eli will win if the Giants can run the ball. I will bet anyone here as much money as you want. I will fund money to my paypal account right now and bet anyone here that if the Giants rush for over 1800 yards in 2018 and Eli is the QB that the Giants win at least 8-9 games without even looking at the WRs or defense. Now, you could say the same thing about most QBs possibly, but find me a QB that will deliver like Eli can in the big spot. There's the rub.

Keep Eli. Fix the running game. Win.

Give ANY QB an 1800 yds running game and they will do well. Why not a young one, that you pay far less than 20 million a year?


I disagree with any quarterback, especially a rookie. Very hard to come right in and play. Why not a young one? Because he has no experience in the NFL, and no experience with the NY media. There are more pros then cons to have Eli back. Best case? We're good again; you have a 2x champ going into the playoffs. Worst case? Eli proves he is declining rapidly and he is done. You then have your qb in waiting on the team...but you don't go into next year starting the rookie in my personal opinion. As i wrote before, no one knows how good or bad Eli's play is if/when he is placed back into a system that suits his style of play.

The worst case in your scenario? Rookie qb starts and does terribly, you then need to consider benching him which may ruin his confidence permanently...or he plays and continues to suck/get hit and his career goes the David Carr route.
RE: RE: RE: Haha, okay, I'm the clown....  
Thegratefulhead : 12/14/2017 2:36 pm : link
In comment 13740646 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13740611 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 13740586 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


nobody has agreed with you, and several have pointed out the flaws in your reasoning.

You're the one on the island, but I'm the clown.

I hear the GM position is open, maybe you should throw your name in the hat?

Just because homers on a fan site don't agree with me does not make me wrong. You are committing a fallacy in your reasoning(ad populum). You are cherry picking his best stats in the last five years to support your argument. His efficiency does not justify his salary in a league with a cap at the end of hs playing career. It would be wise to replace him with a younger player earning less that has the potential to improve. It is VERY reasonable to expect Eli to get worse.



Kevin Gilbride. Greg Cosell. John Mara. Bill Polian. Gil Brandt. Pat Kirwan. All guys who have been quoted in the past two weeks as saying Eli has the same ability, but the team around him stinks.

Homers on a website?


You did not list the people who said Eli done. Do you read them or just dismiss them. Recently his peers(people playing against him) called ELi one the most overrated players in the NFL.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Haha, okay, I'm the clown....  
Britt in VA : 12/14/2017 2:36 pm : link
In comment 13740660 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 13740646 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 13740611 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 13740586 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


nobody has agreed with you, and several have pointed out the flaws in your reasoning.

You're the one on the island, but I'm the clown.

I hear the GM position is open, maybe you should throw your name in the hat?

Just because homers on a fan site don't agree with me does not make me wrong. You are committing a fallacy in your reasoning(ad populum). You are cherry picking his best stats in the last five years to support your argument. His efficiency does not justify his salary in a league with a cap at the end of hs playing career. It would be wise to replace him with a younger player earning less that has the potential to improve. It is VERY reasonable to expect Eli to get worse.



Kevin Gilbride. Greg Cosell. John Mara. Bill Polian. Gil Brandt. Pat Kirwan. All guys who have been quoted in the past two weeks as saying Eli has the same ability, but the team around him stinks.

Homers on a website?



You did not list the people who said Eli done. Do you read them or just dismiss them. Recently his peers(people playing against him) called ELi one the most overrated players in the NFL.


Could you kindly point me to a few, as I have done here for you?
I mean, the guys playing against him might know something?  
Thegratefulhead : 12/14/2017 2:42 pm : link
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/poll-players-believe-eli-manning-andrew-luck-are-the-most-overrated-qbs-in-nfl/
Haha, a players poll?  
Britt in VA : 12/14/2017 2:45 pm : link
That's the best you've got?

1. Eli Manning didn't even make the Top 100 Players in 2011.

2. Eli Manning is considered the most overrated QB in the NFL? To be overrated, you have to be valued to begin with.
Eli has been UNDERRATED by other players his entire career, see #1. Overrated. Thanks for the laugh.
But, now we're getting into circle territory again....  
Britt in VA : 12/14/2017 2:46 pm : link
I think everybody can see what's what here, and what's valid.

I'll leave it at that.
Boomer  
Thegratefulhead : 12/14/2017 2:46 pm : link
Here another
Boomer - ( New Window )
The crux of my argument  
Thegratefulhead : 12/14/2017 2:54 pm : link
Has never been opinions. Just facts. QBs past 35 historically decline. Eli has played worse each of the last 2 years. He has declined the over last 5 years. Geno Smith played the same for 1/10 the salary. Eli WILL get worse. We can play a younger player much less, and he will be much more likely to improve and we can use the money save and picks for trading to improve the team further. All of that is true. Or is Eli of so little value that no one would trade for him? H
Who Cares If Eli Has Something Left?  
Jeffrey : 12/14/2017 3:24 pm : link
The issue is whether he can be successful with the Giants as they are currently constructed and during a rebuild next year. I do not think that Eli has been playing well for the past two years. I don't care if that is because of his line, the scheme, or the lack of playmakers. What is not in dispute is that the OL stinks now and will have to be completely rebuilt, Eli is going to be 37 years old, has never been mobile, and has always struggled with accuracy on short and mid-range throws. How can he succeed with what the Giants are going to be next year--when he will be 38 years old by season's end. If Eli wants to go out a winner, he needs to move. If he wants to help the Giants rebuild he needs to move or renegotiate his salary. If he stays it will be more of the same--run for your life, off-balance throws to avoid a sack, praying for receivers who will hold onto the ball,etc. Everyone wins from this move.
To Add to Jeffrey's comment can you trust your new investment WR's  
Elite Mobster #32 : 12/14/2017 4:29 pm : link
To the Eli of 2017? Who trashed our most talented receivers ever?

He trashed them all. He's inaccurate and frequently throws high and dangerously and into triple coverage. The Giants will be drafting and spending money on WR's this coming year. Its risky with Eli.
RE: Who Cares If Eli Has Something Left?  
AcesUp : 12/14/2017 5:22 pm : link
In comment 13740745 Jeffrey said:
Quote:
The issue is whether he can be successful with the Giants as they are currently constructed and during a rebuild next year. I do not think that Eli has been playing well for the past two years. I don't care if that is because of his line, the scheme, or the lack of playmakers. What is not in dispute is that the OL stinks now and will have to be completely rebuilt, Eli is going to be 37 years old, has never been mobile, and has always struggled with accuracy on short and mid-range throws. How can he succeed with what the Giants are going to be next year--when he will be 38 years old by season's end. If Eli wants to go out a winner, he needs to move. If he wants to help the Giants rebuild he needs to move or renegotiate his salary. If he stays it will be more of the same--run for your life, off-balance throws to avoid a sack, praying for receivers who will hold onto the ball,etc. Everyone wins from this move.


Well said, this is in line with my feelings.
Fuck..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 12/14/2017 5:26 pm : link
the moron is back with the narrative that Eli "trashed" WR's. Trashed them all!

I believe Eli has had a decline in some aspects - and most of them have derived from the system he's been in the past two years and the OL woes.

I've seen a QB that often can't go through his progressions because of pressure, so on the rare occasion he has time, he sometimes rushes the throw. That's not a physical decline though.

What I don't get is people will say "Eli has declined rapidly in the past two years - just look at the stats compared to 2015!!" And they say it fully believing it.

But what changed from 2015? Something significant - they went from a more vertical offense with WCO elements to an offense where downfield chances are rarely taken. This not only brings more defenders into the area where the passes will be thrown, it also means that blitzes will most likely result in a dumpoff instead of a deep TD.

If people want to argue stats - just look at the change since McAdoo took over and scrapped the elements of TC's offense.

- They went from being a top 3 team in 20+ yard plays to being LAST
- They are scoring almost a TD less per game!
- The rushing attack has been in the bottom 5 the past two years!
- Last in the league in conversions of 3rd and 10 or more!

The OL has been crappy for awhile now. TC had to contend with it. The running game has been subpar for years. Eli has been the QB for years.

What changed? If you can't connect the dots and keep beating the drum that eli is done - then you are just looking for reasons to say it.

And then there is the fuckstick saying Eli injured his WR's.......
They're exhausting.  
Britt in VA : 12/14/2017 6:03 pm : link
.
I still don't understand  
djm : 12/14/2017 7:40 pm : link
Why so many fans are making this an all or nothing debate with Eli. I'll say it again. Why can't the Giants hedge their bets, even if they love a qb in this coming draft and take one? Why can't they? Why can't they keep Eli and draft a kid and sort of hedge their bets? Why? Don't tell me money, That's bullshit.

If you aren't necessarily sure what Eli has left, fine, you let the kid and Eli and Webb duke it out.

The only time a qb controversy rips a team apart is when the team was or is a disaster to begin with. If the team is good and winning no one gives a fuck if the young qb or vet qb sitting on the bench is cranky.

I just don't get it. We don't even have to have this debate now.
RE: I have to agree.......  
Jersey55 : 12/15/2017 10:11 am : link
In comment 13740002 Doomster said:
Quote:
I do not see this Giant team being a contender next year....

That being the case this team should be in full rebuild mode....

And one of the first moves, is to rid itself of a 22 M cap hit, which Eli represents.....

I think Eli still has something left.....just not with this team....he needs an OL and weapons, which we do not have....

If the next GM/HC think they can turn this around in one year, by making an OL for him, and adding a WR, and getting us to a SB, then you keep him.....but if you keep him, and build around him, and you are one year too late with him, you have wasted 20M.....

I think the safe bet is to release him.....go QB in the first round.....start to rebuild this OL with draft picks and that 20M.....

OV is another possible cut......the same production from a DE can be had a lower price....

JPP is next on the list, but survives 2018 because of his dead cap.....

The time is now to start making moves, to get this team back on track......and hopefully we hire a GM that has the balls to do this and make the right moves...


if Eli returns next season what will be different that we haven't seen from him, IMO if Eli comes back it will just set this team back one or more years.....
It should be considered to keep Eli  
Jimmy Googs : 12/15/2017 12:05 pm : link
but then determined to not...
RE: Salary cap  
Matt M. : 12/15/2017 12:16 pm : link
In comment 13740467 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
He is not playing like a 20 million dollar player. He is not worth what we are paying him. He shown a near linear decline in efficiency. He used to play better at the end games, now he plays worse. Sure you could win with him, he is dependent, we don't have the time or resources because of bad contracts, one of which is his to get him the players he needs. Geno played just as well. Knock on Geno is turnovers...hello...Knock on Manning is turnovers. Trade Manning, Trade Beckham and cut the other bad contracts then reload. Let the new QB learn the ropes next year. More dead money comes off the following year, another good set of draft picks, we could contend for decade if we get the right QB. Playing Manning is just slowing us down.
First of all, we aren't paying him $20M. That is his cap number, which merely factors in amortization of his guaranteed money that was paid up front. His salary is actually decreasing each of the next 2 seasons.
RE: and lest we forget  
Matt M. : 12/15/2017 12:21 pm : link
In comment 13740517 djm said:
Quote:
Eli will still play well in big games.

I'll say it again and again. GIVE ELI A RUNNING GAME! Trust me....I promise you if this team found a good to great running attack Eli would clean up. He wouldn't be perfect he's never been perfect but he will win. He might still throw two INTS that look terrible but he will also throw 3 TDs and win the games.

Give. Eli. A. Running Game. He never loses more than 8 games in a season if the running game is there. Never. And he usually wins 9 or more.

With the pass catchers this team has at its disposal the Giants need to focus all their resources on the ground game. Fix the OL and add a RB and this team will win. The D isn't that bad.
Agreed. And, that will come with a couple of legitimate blue chip OL. Even a decent running game, coupled with OBJ/Shepard/Engram and they have a good offense again. It also wouldn't hurt to have an OC and HC who use a FB and different personnel packages/formations.
I know there is a lot of debate about this  
Matt M. : 12/15/2017 12:32 pm : link
My take is that Eli's play hasn't dropped off. He is basically the same player he has been for years. He still has a strong arm and is fairly accurate on the deep balls. He can make all the throws, but does have some accuracy issues in the short game. I attribute some of that this year to throwing to guys he's never played with seemingly each week and a piss poor OL throwing off the timing. Timing is critical in the WCO for all the short plays. It is more throwing to spots than players.

People complain about Eli not being a running QB. The bottom line is there have been very few what we have been calling "mobile" QBs winning SBs over the last decade. Eli is one of, if not the least sacked QBs over the last several eyars, and that is with one of the 5 worst OLs. There is a reason for that. He may not be mobile, but he is very adept at avoiding the sacks.

Give him any semblance of an offense and he is back to a top tier QB. In 2014 and 2015 he was one of the very best in the league, but victimized by a terrible defense. I'm beginning to think more and more that success had something to do with Coughlin being here and putting his influence on the WCO. The offense we have run in the 2 years since has been different in terms of personnel moves, personnel packages, gameplanning, in game adjustments, playcalling. Bring in an OC and HC who are not arrogant and stubborn.

I don't think they need to build around Eli at 37 and nobody is suggesting that, so I don't know where that criticism comes from. But, for another year or two, he can certainly lead this team back to the playoffs while bridging the gap to the next QB.
What it all comes down to is this......  
Doomster : 12/15/2017 12:57 pm : link
Does Eli still have it?

Hard to judge based on what he had for weapons this year....even last year with what we had for TE's, Cruz at WR, and Jennings was kept one year too long.......can you imagine what the offense would have looked like without OBj last year? You don't have to imagine, we saw it in the Minny game..... then there is the offensive scheme, the last two years.....and while it's hard to judge how good, Eli really is, it's also hard to judge how bad he is too......

If you still want to build around Eli, first you will have 10M less to work with each of the next two seasons....

Then you have to make a decision, on whether to draft a QB for the future(which will not help us next year), or do you use that draft pick to fill an immediate need on the roster? And what if next year Father Time catches up to Eli, and we held on to him too long?

I'm guessing Eli may have several seasons left.....I just don't think with the Giants......we have no idea what offensive scheme the new HC will bring, or that a miracle will happen....

I just feel we should start the rebuild without Eli, and the extra 20M over the next two years will help in that rebuild....I just don't see the Giants competing for a SB.....and if they don't, we have wasted another season....

Heís just kind of in the way at this point  
Jimmy Googs : 12/15/2017 1:43 pm : link
because we almost certainly are dragging as an offense with him. While he might play better than some rookie would, that would only be in the short term. Meanwhile the younger QB would be developing likely and passing him by...
actually I think Eli is still the same QB he was  
Jersey55 : 12/18/2017 5:25 pm : link
, he can't run to extend any play, he still needs a very strong blocking O line and he still throws too many INTs, he fumbles the ball when hit and misses wide open receivers, and he has always been this way......
Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
Back to the Corner