Hey everyone,
Been lurking on BBI ever since the end of the 2003 NFL season when I came home from a terrible Week 17 Panthers-Giants game and wanted information on who the Giants would draft next year.
I felt compelled to start an account and contribute since I may (or may not, you decide below) have some worthwhile insights on Dave Gettleman since I am a Panthers/Giants fan (long story, not worth your time).
I'm not going to get into any off-the-field stuff you have read about as I obviously wasn't there and don't know what really went on behind the scenes. You can read reports from the Charlotte Observer if you want to understand what may have happened.
What I can tell you about is how the team was before Gettleman, how it was during the DG Era and where it is now.
Apologies for the length of the post, but I wanted to give as much detail as possible.
NOTE: If you don't have the time, and I don't blame you, just skip to the summary at the end for the gist of what I wrote.
2012 (year before he got there)
One of the lines I've heard about Gettleman is that the pieces were already in place before he got there and that he doesn't deserve much credit for the success they had when he was GM.
Yes, the 2012 team had Newton, Smith, Kuechly, Davis and others, but this was not a good football team (7-9). They had a lot of holes (d-Line and secondary being the most prominent) and performed well below expectations. This was evident when the Panthers got the doors blown off them by Ramses Barden and the Giants 36-7 if you remember that game. Also, if you're bored, check the play by play at the end of the loss to the Falcons that year, which still blows my mind. Reminds me of some painful Giants losses.
Ex-GM (and now current GM) Marty Hurney brought in some very good players in the draft, and he sounds like one of the nicest guys you'll meet, but his issue was the cap, as the team was strapped with terrible contracts. With the bad start to the year, he was let go.
Entering the 2013 year, the Panthers didn't have high expectations.
2013
This might have been DG's best year as GM of the 4-plus he was there. He had a bad cap situation but was able to find some low-cost players to fill some gaps. Safety Mike Mitchell plugged a massive hole in the secondary and brought attitude to the team. CB Drayton Florence was solid for a year too. Domenik Hixon, who you know well, provided depth in the WR core and had a huge TD catch against the Saints late in the season, and Ted Ginn Jr. was able to help stretch the field.
The draft was big. Yes, Star Lotulelei fell in the Panthers' lap, but DG still had to make the pick. KK Short in the 2nd round was shrewd. AJ Klein was solid in the 5th round. Edmund Kugbila got hurt and never stepped foot on the field, and Kenjon Barner never made it with CAR.
The defense vastly improved year over year, which was the key to the turnaround from 7-9 to 12-4.
2014
This offseason did not pan out as well. Some FA (Antoine Cason and Tiquan Underwood) didn't make it through the season. Jerricho Cotchery was a solid possession receiver though. They lost a bunch of FA (again, cap concerns).
They let go of Steve Smith, who finished well in Baltimore. Again, not getting into off-field issues, but I would have liked to see him finish things out as a Panther. If we're talking on-field, I think he had some left in the tank and wish something could have worked out. He means a lot to the fanbase.
The draft was pretty good for the most part: Kelvin Benjamin had a really good rookie year, but he tore his ACL in 2015 and unfortunately hasn't been the same since.
DE Kony Ealy had one good game (the Super Bowl) but otherwise was inconsistent. Trai Turner in the third round is honestly one of the better picks in the last five years by any team, he's fantastic.
Tre Boston did OK here but is doing quite well in L.A. Bene Benwikere was good for two years but suffered a bad leg injury in 2015. Tyler Gaffney never played for CAR.
Playing Monday Morning QB, the issue here was that the team didn't have a solid plan in place at left tackle for the '14 season: The retirement of Jordan Gross hurt the team badly. What resulted was an inconsistent offense and Cam Newton getting sacked a lot as they tried to put Byron Bell at LT (did not work).
They also tried a CFL prospect at LT against the Saints on Thursday Night Football and it went poorly (30-10 loss). Some bad blowouts this year.
What might have ended up saving the team a bit was actually a late-season pickup of OT Mike Remmers, who helped shore up the line a bit. The team got on a late roll and somehow made the playoffs at 7-8-1, losing in the divisional round.
2015
Gettleman made excellent pickups in free agency. Safety Kurt Coleman and cornerback Peanut Tillman both had great '15 seasons in Carolina. This helped create a fantastic defense that at times was dominant. No one thought LT Michael Oher had anything left, but it turns out he did and he played really well for the most part in 2015, fixing the protection issue from the previous year.
They lost DeAngelo Williams. He had a great career in Carolina, but the issue is that the backfield was just way too crowded and took up way too much of the cap. I was fine with him being released from a roster perspective (and still am even though he had two good years in Pittsburgh), although like Smith he meant a lot to the fans.
In the draft, they picked up Shaq Thompson (current starting LB, solid), Devin Funchess (if you asked me last year, I would have called him a bust, but he's made a HUGE leap in year three) and Daryl Williams (Pro Football Focus has him as the No. 2 OT in the NFL). David Mayo is a good special teams guy and backup LB. Cameron Artis-Payne hasn't seen the field much.
I'd honestly give that offseason an A-plus. It led to a 15-1 year and a Super Bowl appearance. Unfortunately the Panthers could not withstand the Broncos' pass rush and lost the Super Bowl, but it was a solid season.
2016
They lost Josh Norman to free agency. I honestly still don't know how I feel about that. On one hand, he's getting paid 15 million/year for five years and hasn't played like an elite corner since he's landed in DC. On the other hand, he was perfect for the Panthers' system and the heart and soul of the team. Fans LOVED Norman. Still do. I may have bit the bullet if I was Gettleman, but honestly, I also understand why he let him walk.
They didn't bring in any contributor in FA, and the draft was the worst of the five. DT Vernon Butler seemed like a luxury pick given that they already had two in place. Hurt a lot and missed action, but he's done well this year though.
The Panthers went CB heavy to find a Norman replacement. CB James Bradberry has been up and down, but I think he has a lot of potential. Daryl Worley goes back and forth from playing to being benched. CB Zack Sanchez hasn't seen the field much.
They traded a 4th-rounder for Andy Lee after losing punter Brad Nortman to FA. Seemed like a steep price at the time and is now that Lee is in Arizona.
Unfortunately, Oher, who was fantastic in 2015, suffered a concussion that ended his career.
Remmers was the replacement at LT, but it didn't work, and Newton simply didn't have enough time to engineer the offense. The defense collapsed on the back end as Bradberry got hurt and the rookies struggled. Kuechly suffered a concussion in game no. 10 and was lost for the year. Murphy's Law all year ended with the Panthers going 6-10 and looking like a shell of themselves.
2017
It's an odd-numbered year, so you know things have gone mostly well. In free agency, they picked up vet safety Mike Adams, who has performed the best out of anyone on the Panther back end this year.
Matt Kalil got a fat contract and hasn't lived up to it. Still time though. Charlotte Observer has an article on how he has done this year. Summary: Plays well most of the time, but he gives up some bad sacks during games.
That being said, he's done better than the tail end of the Viking days, and I'd argue he's improved a bit during '17. Also his brother Ryan (the team center) got hurt, and the line has suffered as a whole. Still, they are better protecting this year than last, which has led to improvement.
They brought Julius Peppers home to close out his career, and he's been excellent. Captain Munnerlyn has not done as well in his return to CAR. Russell Shepard had an opportunity to take the No. 2 WR spot but couldn't do it.
The big pickups in the draft were RB Christian McCaffrey and WR Curtis Samuel. I like CMC a lot, and he's efficient with the touches he gets, but he's treated like he's made of glass. He's a 10-touch-a-game guy and should get more. Samuel got hurt early, struggled to start the year but showed flashes against Miami before he unfortunately was lost for the season.
The other big move was the trade of Benjamin to Buffalo, but that was a Hurney transaction, and that's where this write-up of Gettleman ends.
Summary/Closing Thoughts:
Dave Gettleman left the Panthers in much better shape than he found them. He's an excellent talent evaluator and does a really good job finding bargain free agents.
I consider the 2017 CAR team his team since he constructed a huge chunk of it, so all told, his CAR record is 49 wins, 27 losses and one tie, in addition to three division titles and a Super Bowl appearance.
The Giants' record in that span since he left the organization is 32 wins and 45 losses.
A lot of people talk about wanting a "fresh face" and "new perspective." I get that opinion, especially after a difficult year.
But honestly, if the right guy for the job is an old face, then I don't think it matters much.
As long as John Mara considers all the solid options (of which there are a few) and still thinks Gettleman is the guy, then I am on board.
And this old face in particular has a proven track record of success. When he was with the Giants, the team went to three Super Bowls, winning two, and helped bring in a ton of free-agent talent that was crucial to those championship teams.
This is pure speculation on my part, but I think some people may be equating the recent poor run by the Giants with Gettleman since he was formerly part of the regime that was in place this year. But he hasn't been here since 2012. If that sentiment is wrong, then I apologize.
DG wasn't perfect in Carolina, and I explained the on-field issues IMHO before, but no GM is. Ultimately, he found a core to work with and built well around it. His record in Carolina and beforehand speaks for itself.
I think there are 5 names out there that would be great fits with the team for various reasons, and Gettleman is one of them. I'd be very happy with him as the Giants GM.
...official welcome to BBI as a poster. You'll find this place very warm, friendly and encouraging! {:-)
I know very little about Carolina so I really appreciate your nuanced view of the team and Dave Gettleman's role in overseeing its transformation.
Thank so much!
I was talking with Jordan Raanan yesterday while editing and uploading the Dan Duggan tape and we were speculating whether he would have let Riley Reif slip through the Giants fingers last off-season.
Gettleman has always been very strong at getting depth players - he definitely picks some that don't work out - but collectively he also picks up some pretty damn good ones. if you look at the Giants pro-personnel he picked for the Giants -- there were a lot of contributors to both Superbowl runs on that list.
You also make a great point looking at the 2012-2015 dive the Giants took when he left -- that's really worth noting.
At some point I'm going to write about the process of hiring an employee that fits your view of the world -- and that you feel can get the job done -- it's an important point and it needs to be made visa vee the Giants.
You'll find this place very warm, friendly and encouraging! {:-)
Now THAT was funny!
BTW, I agree with Robbie about basically giving DG Chris Mara's job to evaluate talent and then find a GM
...official welcome to BBI as a poster. You'll find this place very warm, friendly and encouraging! {:-)
Keep posting great threads like this one and this place will be warm, friendly and encouraging.
He’s going to have to be the one to deal with the Eli departure either this offseason or next and decide the next QB, coach, and vision for the team.
He will need to clean out and improve the personnel side and scouting and drafting. Sternfeld and Ross cannot get a pass.
With Dorsey gone, I don’t see a really slam dunk candidate anymore.
Philosophically, he is different from Reese and at this point, that is all I can ask for
The NFL doesn't look that much different to me. The pure pocket passer (PPP) executing a PA pass offense still has a place in the NFL. Mobile QBs eventually get themselves injured; PPP's less so. Having a running game makes things a lot easier in this "passing league", too. We have seen the pistol, the wildcat, read-option, spread (KC?) formations/plays trickle into the NFL. But nothing has endured like the PPP offense. I think there is a reason for that.
On defense you need to stop the run and get pressure on the QB. Easier said than done; but the concept hasn't changed. Teams are basically running either a 3-4 (5-2 in some cases) or a 4-3 base defense.
The GM's job is to acquire great football players. It is the coaches' job to figure out how to utilize them; creatively if need be.
Just don’t want Gettleman due to my fear they really need new eyes. Picking Apple over Decker etc. Now maybe he wasn’t part all the issues but it seems they just deathly afraid of
Change and new ideas
With insight like you shared here s hopI guess you post more often
...official welcome to BBI as a poster. You'll find this place very warm, friendly and encouraging! {:-)
I know very little about Carolina so I really appreciate your nuanced view of the team and Dave Gettleman's role in overseeing its transformation.
Thank so much!
Thank you!
Agree. Its better than "Hi, I'm new and my favorite color is purple. Do you think McAdoo is a good coach?"
Great question: I think the Mike Adams and Julius Peppers signings from this past offseason point the arrow toward "no" here. These are long-time, well-respected vets who probably had other options but decided to go to Carolina. Yes, there was an emotional tie with Peppers, but no one forced him to sign that contract either. If DG really was an issue, I doubt he'd be here.
Of course it's possible that one or two FA do blacklist, but the early returns are that it won't. And to be honest, it shouldn't. If the shoe fits for both sides, it should work out. Just my .02.
Quote:
Thanks - do you think potential free agents would blacklist any team that gettleman worked for after the Smith/Olson/Davis situations
Great question: I think the Mike Adams and Julius Peppers signings from this past offseason point the arrow toward "no" here. These are long-time, well-respected vets who probably had other options but decided to go to Carolina. Yes, there was an emotional tie with Peppers, but no one forced him to sign that contract either. If DG really was an issue, I doubt he'd be here.
Of course it's possible that one or two FA do blacklist, but the early returns are that it won't. And to be honest, it shouldn't. If the shoe fits for both sides, it should work out. Just my .02.
"It's all about the money" - George Young
I was talking with Jordan Raanan yesterday while editing and uploading the Dan Duggan tape and we were speculating whether he would have let Riley Reif slip through the Giants fingers last off-season.
Gettleman has always been very strong at getting depth players - he definitely picks some that don't work out - but collectively he also picks up some pretty damn good ones. if you look at the Giants pro-personnel he picked for the Giants -- there were a lot of contributors to both Superbowl runs on that list.
You also make a great point looking at the 2012-2015 dive the Giants took when he left -- that's really worth noting.
At some point I'm going to write about the process of hiring an employee that fits your view of the world -- and that you feel can get the job done -- it's an important point and it needs to be made visa vee the Giants.
Thanks! DG's ability to unearth FA and UDFA talent for bargain prices was remarkable, and I'd argue that's his best trait. And I think that would be a HUGE boost to a Giants team that everyone knows needs to get better in all 3 phases.
I'm fine with his return
YAJ2112 : 8:28 am : link : reply
I'd say this is an excellent summary of Gettleman's time here.
Excellent, detailed post that is objective and factual.
Great job!!
For all of us who want to blow everything up, Gettleman at least has done the dirty job of hatchet man.
Only thing that bothers me is 66. When I hit 66, I wanted to play more golf and do a lot less work. I can’t understand anyone who wants to work 50-60 hours per week after hitting about 70.
For all of us who want to blow everything up, Gettleman at least has done the dirty job of hatchet man.
Only thing that bothers me is 66. When I hit 66, I wanted to play more golf and do a lot less work. I can’t understand anyone who wants to work 50-60 hours per week after hitting about 70.
Unlike another GM who's record here has been whitewashed in recent years, and who would resign talent to contracts whether the player earned them or not.
Also, everyone knew Kalil was going to get way overpaid, but you can't go into the season with no LT like the Giants did. Reese probably cost himself a job by not signing one of the LTs because then they could have moved Flowers to RT, where he belongs, and the whole season might not have gone down the toilet.
And I did not realize Steve Smith's connection with the fans. They probably could have renegotiated that contract. He still had something left.
I'm sure DG got a scouting report on Webb from his college scouting staff before he was drafted and has a take, but I'm not sure how he feels. It's also possible DG won't have a solid opinion until he sees Webb in game action at some point.
Yes, all really good points.
Also, everyone knew Kalil was going to get way overpaid, but you can't go into the season with no LT like the Giants did. Reese probably cost himself a job by not signing one of the LTs because then they could have moved Flowers to RT, where he belongs, and the whole season might not have gone down the toilet.
Yea, that's a really good point. They needed someone at LT because they knew Oher wasn't going to be back. That was the price to pay for an LT, so they had to do it.
I don't think Kalil has been bad, per se, just inconsistent. There are some games where I don't think about him once. Then there are days when he gives up a bad sack. I have hope he'll continue to improve.
And I did not realize Steve Smith's connection with the fans. They probably could have renegotiated that contract. He still had something left.
Gross: Love Gross, first of all. Great player, great person.
From interviews done after the year, it sounded like he was just done. Big family guy and it sounded like he wanted to spend more time with his wife and kids. He was still playing at a high level in 2013, and while he was banged up like any veteran, he didn't suffer any serious injury in '13 and played every game.
Smith: Yea, big fan favorite and obviously I was a big fan of his too given the way he played the game. In a perfect world he would stay, but it didn't work out for whatever reason.
There was some speculation that if Gettleman comes back as GM, a head coach possibility would be the Panthers DC Steve Wilks. What is the opinion of Wilks down in Carolina?
There was some speculation that if Gettleman comes back as GM, a head coach possibility would be the Panthers DC Steve Wilks. What is the opinion of Wilks down in Carolina?
Jonathan Jones of Sports Illustrated (and formerly the Panthers beat writer for the Charlotte Observer) just wrote a great article on Wilks. Check out the link below.
I like Wilks a lot. Panthers D will get after you. Blitz-heavy. Front 7 is fantastic and is thriving in Wilks' system.
Secondary (which Wilks coached before he moved to DC) surprisingly has not played as well. Young CB are inconsistent. Coleman hasn't played as well. FA pickup Adams has been stellar though and made a HUGE play recently vs. MIN.
Overall, though, Wilks has done a really good job in Carolina. If you think this means anything at all, I also think that he would be much more media-friendly than McAdoo or TC in his first few years. Has had some good, informative pressers and is accessible. Seems like a good guy who has the respect of his players.
I'd definitely be on board with someone like Wilks. I also really like Teryl Austin from Detroit, who I think is doing more with less given some injuries on the front 7. I want a defensive guy, but that's just me.
Wilks: SI - ( New Window )
Well if the Giants really feel that Abrams is almost ready to be a full-time GM I feel they could take a chance on a young guy like Wolf since Abrams is there to advise Wolf.