He said he’s hearing the Giants are leaning towards keeping Eli for another 2 years and building around him. He says they may pass on a QB, but disagrees with this route.
Again, I know it’s premature and likely no one knows, but this would be a tremendous blunder. If any of these QB’s end up being franchise players, and we pass on building for 15 years so we can build for 2 would be very short sighted.
I love Eli, but I hope we aren’t making any decisions based on loyalty towards him. We need to take advantage of the sport unity picking in the top 3 with a 37 year old QB.
Gotta take the QB regardless of what they think about Eli or Webb.
- Have a better read on Webb if you don't plan on taking a QB this year.
This could also be diversionary as well.
I agree, maybe they try to trade down some for say Allen or Jackson, but they will draft a QB high. It also begs the question if they take a QB RD 1 does Eli want to stay to get benched as soon as things go south or would he prefer try and latch on somewhere to make a last run.
Unless your owner is Jerry Jones.
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to go with a QB nearing 40 when you have a top 3-4 pick in a QB heavy draft. Even the Giants see this. Anyone who thinks they're not taking a QB is going to be severely disappointed.
I agree, maybe they try to trade down some for say Allen or Jackson, but they will draft a QB high. It also begs the question if they take a QB RD 1 does Eli want to stay to get benched as soon as things go south or would he prefer try and latch on somewhere to make a last run.
I wouldn't mind Josh Allen. I think it's either Allen or Rosen we wind up with.
You don't delay if you like the QB you can get now. The ONLY reason to not take a QB is if you don't like them. It is unlikely that the Giants will be have a high draft pick in a couple of years.
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In comment 13750925 Dave in Hoboken said:
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to go with a QB nearing 40 when you have a top 3-4 pick in a QB heavy draft. Even the Giants see this. Anyone who thinks they're not taking a QB is going to be severely disappointed.
I agree, maybe they try to trade down some for say Allen or Jackson, but they will draft a QB high. It also begs the question if they take a QB RD 1 does Eli want to stay to get benched as soon as things go south or would he prefer try and latch on somewhere to make a last run.
I wouldn't mind Josh Allen. I think it's either Allen or Rosen we wind up with.
Boylhart raves about Allen. I have no issue with it. Webb plus Allen let the better man win out.
The Giants probably have a good feel for all the QB's in the draft already. Just because there is no GM in place, does not mean the organization is flying blind here.
There is no way the Giants aren't going to take a QB after going 2-14 with a 37 year old QB whose making a ton of money.
The Giants will draft one of Rosen, Darnold or Mayfield. They will keep Eli through 2018. Then cut him after the season and save 17 million. No point to cut him now as his cap hit would still be 12.4 million. It cost 22 million to keep him.
If they keep Eli for 2019 they'll have to pay him 23.2 million. If they cut him their dead cap is only 6.2 million. It's much better to keep him for a year. Try to make a playoff run and let our new QB learn from him.
Exactly. He's on a podcast after just leaving WFAN. He has to say something without saying "I don't know." Besides, anyone that listened to Francesa over the last 10 years or so knows that he has no sources inside the Giants.
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In comment 13750936 mattyblue said:
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In comment 13750925 Dave in Hoboken said:
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to go with a QB nearing 40 when you have a top 3-4 pick in a QB heavy draft. Even the Giants see this. Anyone who thinks they're not taking a QB is going to be severely disappointed.
I agree, maybe they try to trade down some for say Allen or Jackson, but they will draft a QB high. It also begs the question if they take a QB RD 1 does Eli want to stay to get benched as soon as things go south or would he prefer try and latch on somewhere to make a last run.
I wouldn't mind Josh Allen. I think it's either Allen or Rosen we wind up with.
Boylhart raves about Allen. I have no issue with it. Webb plus Allen let the better man win out.
You have no issue with drafting a QB whose completed 56% of his passes the last 2 years? Not in the SEC where he plays defenses like Bama, UF or Georgia. That was in a shitty ass conference.
Against the few ok teams he played Iowa, Boise State, Oregon & Colorado State he averaged 126 yards passing. He had 1 TD & 5 INTs. Completing a whopping 47% of his passes against those 4 teams. He also lost 2 fumbles in those games. No thanks!
The process is far from over and anything is possible right now. Anything.
The process is far from over and anything is possible right now. Anything.
This...without knowing who the gm and hc are anything is a guess
That is actually the approach I am hoping they take.
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In comment 13750941 Dave in Hoboken said:
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In comment 13750936 mattyblue said:
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In comment 13750925 Dave in Hoboken said:
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to go with a QB nearing 40 when you have a top 3-4 pick in a QB heavy draft. Even the Giants see this. Anyone who thinks they're not taking a QB is going to be severely disappointed.
I agree, maybe they try to trade down some for say Allen or Jackson, but they will draft a QB high. It also begs the question if they take a QB RD 1 does Eli want to stay to get benched as soon as things go south or would he prefer try and latch on somewhere to make a last run.
I wouldn't mind Josh Allen. I think it's either Allen or Rosen we wind up with.
Boylhart raves about Allen. I have no issue with it. Webb plus Allen let the better man win out.
You have no issue with drafting a QB whose completed 56% of his passes the last 2 years? Not in the SEC where he plays defenses like Bama, UF or Georgia. That was in a shitty ass conference.
Against the few ok teams he played Iowa, Boise State, Oregon & Colorado State he averaged 126 yards passing. He had 1 TD & 5 INTs. Completing a whopping 47% of his passes against those 4 teams. He also lost 2 fumbles in those games. No thanks!
None
The Giants aren't leaning anywhere right now! They don't even have a GM or HC in place. Might be wise to wait until people are in place to make the QB decision. Whether the Maras dislike or like the QB situation doesn't really matter.
But for the past 10 years or so, his source for Giants info has essentially been the NY Post
But for the past 10 years or so, his source for Giants info has essentially been the NY Post
Yeah, I was gonna say Dottino. Mike's thoughts sound awfully similar to the ones Dottino shared just yesterday.
This.
If the Giants grab a QB simply because they need one and that QB flops, it would be a huge waste.
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and at times he was plugged in to local teams
But for the past 10 years or so, his source for Giants info has essentially been the NY Post
Yeah, I was gonna say Dottino. Mike's thoughts sound awfully similar to the ones Dottino shared just yesterday.
Haha yup
If the Giants grab a QB simply because they need one and that QB flops, it would be a huge waste.
It's hard to believe that none of the QB's in this class are going to pan out - the Giants are likely going to have their pick of the litter with maybe one exception.
It's on them to select the right guy. But I'm fairly confident there will be a QB available to them - at least one - that goes on to have a very good NFL career.
Will they pick the right one?
That's the million dollar question.
But it's hard for me to believe there will be no "right guy" available when they're on the clock. It really will come down to their convictions and who they think is right.
That said, I still hope they take a QB if they have a strong conviction for one.
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It has to be the right guy. And if the right guy isn't there, you pass. I don't know who that right guy is, but just because there are a few QB's at the top of everyone's list doesn't mean any of them are the type of QB that will be successful here.
If the Giants grab a QB simply because they need one and that QB flops, it would be a huge waste.
It's hard to believe that none of the QB's in this class are going to pan out - the Giants are likely going to have their pick of the litter with maybe one exception.
It's on them to select the right guy. But I'm fairly confident there will be a QB available to them - at least one - that goes on to have a very good NFL career.
Will they pick the right one?
That's the million dollar question.
But it's hard for me to believe there will be no "right guy" available when they're on the clock. It really will come down to their convictions and who they think is right.
I'm not a huge college football fan so I don't watch a ton of games or have any real insight into the players other than what I read, but it doesn't sound like any of these QB's are in that Manning/Luck/Roethlisberger tier. Seems like a lot of these guys are flawed.
Lets say the Browns pick Darnold. The other prospects we keep discussing at #2 are Rosen, Allen, and potentially Mayfield.
Rosen has medical concerns.
Allen has serious accuracy issues.
Mayfield has character concerns.
Are any of these QB's really a better pick than say, a feature back like Saquon Barkley?
I'd be really hard-pressed not to pick Barkley over any of them. You fill a huge need and there's still a very good chance you grab a flawed QB prospect at the top of the 2nd (maybe Jackson) which is a much less risky spot.
That said, I still hope they take a QB if they have a strong conviction for one.
It would be well deserved. A moronic move if they are that short sighted.
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In comment 13751076 Brown Recluse said:
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It has to be the right guy. And if the right guy isn't there, you pass. I don't know who that right guy is, but just because there are a few QB's at the top of everyone's list doesn't mean any of them are the type of QB that will be successful here.
If the Giants grab a QB simply because they need one and that QB flops, it would be a huge waste.
It's hard to believe that none of the QB's in this class are going to pan out - the Giants are likely going to have their pick of the litter with maybe one exception.
It's on them to select the right guy. But I'm fairly confident there will be a QB available to them - at least one - that goes on to have a very good NFL career.
Will they pick the right one?
That's the million dollar question.
But it's hard for me to believe there will be no "right guy" available when they're on the clock. It really will come down to their convictions and who they think is right.
I'm not a huge college football fan so I don't watch a ton of games or have any real insight into the players other than what I read, but it doesn't sound like any of these QB's are in that Manning/Luck/Roethlisberger tier. Seems like a lot of these guys are flawed.
Lets say the Browns pick Darnold. The other prospects we keep discussing at #2 are Rosen, Allen, and potentially Mayfield.
Rosen has medical concerns.
Allen has serious accuracy issues.
Mayfield has character concerns.
Are any of these QB's really a better pick than say, a feature back like Saquon Barkley?
I'd be really hard-pressed not to pick Barkley over any of them. You fill a huge need and there's still a very good chance you grab a flawed QB prospect at the top of the 2nd (maybe Jackson) which is a much less risky spot.
I'm a big Jackson guy - so if the Giants were able to land Barkley and then take Jackson later, I'd be ecstatic.
I just think this is a strong QB class and feel very confident that at least one of these guys that we'll have available to us will be really good - so, hopefully we identify the right one.
If accurate, than indeed, those claiming it is the 1970s again are correct.
The rest of these guys...I really don't have a problem passing on them,at least in the first round.
[quote] In comment 13751086 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 13751076 Brown Recluse said:
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It has to be the right guy. And if the right guy isn't there, you pass. I don't know who that right guy is, but just because there are a few QB's at the top of everyone's list doesn't mean any of them are the type of QB that will be successful here.
If the Giants grab a QB simply because they need one and that QB flops, it would be a huge waste.
It's hard to believe that none of the QB's in this class are going to pan out - the Giants are likely going to have their pick of the litter with maybe one exception.
It's on them to select the right guy. But I'm fairly confident there will be a QB available to them - at least one - that goes on to have a very good NFL career.
Will they pick the right one?
That's the million dollar question.
But it's hard for me to believe there will be no "right guy" available when they're on the clock. It really will come down to their convictions and who they think is right.
I'm not a huge college football fan so I don't watch a ton of games or have any real insight into the players other than what I read, but it doesn't sound like any of these QB's are in that Manning/Luck/Roethlisberger tier. Seems like a lot of these guys are flawed.
Lets say the Browns pick Darnold. The other prospects we keep discussing at #2 are Rosen, Allen, and potentially Mayfield.
Rosen has medical concerns.
Allen has serious accuracy issues.
Mayfield has character concerns.
Are any of these QB's really a better pick than say, a feature back like Saquon Barkley?
I'd be really hard-pressed not to pick Barkley over any of them. You fill a huge need and there's still a very good chance you grab a flawed QB prospect at the top of the 2nd (maybe Jackson) which is a much less risky spot.
[/quote
Allen has "accuracy issues". Okay? Wouldn't be the first Giants QB to have those..
Do note there is a good chance the Giants are terrible next year. If Rosen, and Webb are on the roster on a 2-9 Giants team, are we going to get the same reaction from Manning next year when approached about sitting?
Will the head coach have the guts to do what Tom Coughlin did in 2004, sit an aging Super Bowl winner who still has some tread, knowing it's in the best interest of the club?
It's funny Manning came in and 1) Collins said no thanks to keeping the seat warm and 2) Warner eventually got yanked for the young guy.
Which fate Eli is more comfortable with will determine how this plays out.
Of course we do. John Mara has the final say in football operations. If he's decided Eli stays 2 more years and no QB, that's what it is.
He'd be nuts not to be intrigued by Webb, and apparently he is.
Of course we do. John Mara has the final say in football operations. If he's decided Eli stays 2 more years and no QB, that's what it is.
He'd be nuts not to be intrigued by Webb, and apparently he is.
He is? They have a funny way of showing it.
That said, the Giants should make it seem like they want a QB to entice other team's to trade up. No need to be leaking this stuff. Loose lips...
That said, the Giants should make it seem like they want a QB to entice other team's to trade up. No need to be leaking this stuff. Loose lips...
They are in the QB market. They have a top pick.
My vote would be Barkley or Chubb if they pass.
That said, the Giants should make it seem like they want a QB to entice other team's to trade up. No need to be leaking this stuff. Loose lips...
I keep seeing this stupid narrative about the Giants hurting their trade leverage if they decide not to go QB and teams know it. How the hell does that make sense? There are tons of teams that are desperate for a QB that will competing with each other to move up. Why was it that when San Fran was in the two spot, everyone was saying that they will be able to get a huge haul for the pick from a team that needs a QB, but when it’s the Giants, they won’t get shit because they have loose lips. Ridiculous.
All that said, I’d be more than shocked if they don’t go QB. But if they decide not to, teams will be tripping over themselves to trade up with them.
And "Mike F." hasn't had sources in the Giants in at least a decade.
John Mara can say whatever he wants right now. Ultimately, the football decisions will be left to the football people they hire.
Since they have not hired those people yet, it's pretty clear that this whole "plan" to build around Eli for the next 2 years is nonsense.
Someone above stated it s a smart move because they could address the quarterback question next season
The Giants have the 2cnd pick this season!
I get the love for Eli. But he s not Tom Brady. What sense does it make to build around a 38 year old quarterback who has been middle of the pack good for a few seasons now.
Someone above stated it s a smart move because they could address the quarterback question next season
The Giants have the 2cnd pick this season!
I get the love for Eli. But he s not Tom Brady. What sense does it make to build around a 38 year old quarterback who has been middle of the pack good for a few seasons now.
THIS!!!!!!!!!!
Someone above stated it s a smart move because they could address the quarterback question next season
The Giants have the 2cnd pick this season!
I get the love for Eli. But he s not Tom Brady. What sense does it make to build around a 38 year old quarterback who has been middle of the pack good for a few seasons now.
It makes no sense - and the Giants have as good of a chance to be awful next year as they do improved.
There will be lots of new faces: a new coach, a new GM, a new offensive system, likely a new defensive system, 3-4 new offensive lineman, 2-3 new linebackers.
The Giants have a lot of talent and a lot of holes. Building around a 38-year-old is silly. A 38-year-old keeping the seat warm as the team matures? Sure.
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Use the haul of picks to rebuild the roster and re-visit the QB situation the following year or the year after.
You don't delay if you like the QB you can get now. The ONLY reason to not take a QB is if you don't like them. It is unlikely that the Giants will be have a high draft pick in a couple of years.
There’s a less than 50% chance the QB they draft (if they draft a QB) will be even an average NFL QB. Just look at the top 3 QB picks in the last 10 drafts. There’s way too many people here assuming the Giants will have a franchise QB for the next 10-15 years by simply drafting a QB 2 overall. The pick could suck. He could get injured. There’s no guarantee they’ll be set for the next 10 years. It’s not even likely.
The current roster has exceptional talent in some areas and is grossly deficient in others. If the Giants let another team gamble on a QB, they could use the haul of picks to set the entire roster up for the foreseeable future, not just the QB position.
It all comes down to what the organization thinks of Eli. If they view him as a bottom 5 NFL starter, then maybe they should spin the roulette wheel for a potential franchise QB. If they think he’s at least average, then the smart play is to trade down because history shows they’re not likely to get even an average QB at 2.
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In comment 13750917 WillVAB said:
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Use the haul of picks to rebuild the roster and re-visit the QB situation the following year or the year after.
You don't delay if you like the QB you can get now. The ONLY reason to not take a QB is if you don't like them. It is unlikely that the Giants will be have a high draft pick in a couple of years.
There’s a less than 50% chance the QB they draft (if they draft a QB) will be even an average NFL QB. Just look at the top 3 QB picks in the last 10 drafts. There’s way too many people here assuming the Giants will have a franchise QB for the next 10-15 years by simply drafting a QB 2 overall. The pick could suck. He could get injured. There’s no guarantee they’ll be set for the next 10 years. It’s not even likely.
The current roster has exceptional talent in some areas and is grossly deficient in others. If the Giants let another team gamble on a QB, they could use the haul of picks to set the entire roster up for the foreseeable future, not just the QB position.
It all comes down to what the organization thinks of Eli. If they view him as a bottom 5 NFL starter, then maybe they should spin the roulette wheel for a potential franchise QB. If they think he’s at least average, then the smart play is to trade down because history shows they’re not likely to get even an average QB at 2.
But how often 1) have the Giants picked this high in the last decade 2) how many of the good-to-very-good QBs in the league did go at the top of the draft?
What I do see talked about a lot is Eli staying next season to mentor the new QB. There is no chance of that happening. The new QB will start. Set your DVR'S, Eli's last game as a Giant will be 12/31/17.
And it is exactly what they should do.
And it is exactly what they should do.
I agree, Milton.
And it is exactly what they should do.
Agreed. They need to build an offensive line and get a running game regardless of the QB.
i'm not sold on darnold, rosen is a walking injury, and mayfield is a tiny man, and a douchebag to boot.
they should pass on all of these QBs.
And it is exactly what they should do.
Agreed. I'd be 100% fine with this.
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they'd be in the QB market in the draft regardless of Eli.
That said, the Giants should make it seem like they want a QB to entice other team's to trade up. No need to be leaking this stuff. Loose lips...
I keep seeing this stupid narrative about the Giants hurting their trade leverage if they decide not to go QB and teams know it. How the hell does that make sense? There are tons of teams that are desperate for a QB that will competing with each other to move up. Why was it that when San Fran was in the two spot, everyone was saying that they will be able to get a huge haul for the pick from a team that needs a QB, but when it’s the Giants, they won’t get shit because they have loose lips. Ridiculous.
All that said, I’d be more than shocked if they don’t go QB. But if they decide not to, teams will be tripping over themselves to trade up with them.
Is it really that hard 2 understand?
p.s.--People shouldn't forget that in the Green Bay playoff game last year, Eli was money. He wasn't the reason they didn't move on to the next round.
On the flip side, why is everyone so sure that it would not be a disaster to take Darnold or Rosen? Either has just as much chance at crashing and burning as succeeding. Think about a team lacking a running game for years and has a 2 time SB MVP at QB, yet they pass on Barkley and take a QB. They need to be 100% correct with that QB, I'll tell you that much.
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OR the other. Why cant we draft our guy, let Webb stay where he is and let Eli play out his last 2 years while the young guys c learn. At the very least one more year of Eli makes sense
Exactly. Give Eli and the offense a year to see what they can do. If the Giants are a winning team in 2018 than stick with what works for 2019. If Eli falters, you go with (hopefully) Rosen in 2019.
p.s.--People shouldn't forget that in the Green Bay playoff game last year, Eli was money. He wasn't the reason they didn't move on to the next round.
this. eli is not, and has never been, the problem. reese had been subtly criticizing eli for nearly a decade (calling him "skittish", etc.). that partially explains why he wasted numerous draft picks drafting guys like andre woodson, rhett bomar and ryan nassib, instead of just finding a solid veteran backup. he finally got a coach in mcadoo who had a similar negative view of eli. my point is that reese was not building the team in a way that helped eli to succeed. when he finally attempted to address the OL, it was too late, and he botched it badly, whiffing on multiple draft picks and FAs.
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In comment 13751245 chopperhatch said:
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OR the other. Why cant we draft our guy, let Webb stay where he is and let Eli play out his last 2 years while the young guys c learn. At the very least one more year of Eli makes sense
Exactly. Give Eli and the offense a year to see what they can do. If the Giants are a winning team in 2018 than stick with what works for 2019. If Eli falters, you go with (hopefully) Rosen in 2019.
p.s.--People shouldn't forget that in the Green Bay playoff game last year, Eli was money. He wasn't the reason they didn't move on to the next round.
this. eli is not, and has never been, the problem. reese had been subtly criticizing eli for nearly a decade (calling him "skittish", etc.). that partially explains why he wasted numerous draft picks drafting guys like andre woodson, rhett bomar and ryan nassib, instead of just finding a solid veteran backup. he finally got a coach in mcadoo who had a similar negative view of eli. my point is that reese was not building the team in a way that helped eli to succeed. when he finally attempted to address the OL, it was too late, and he botched it badly, whiffing on multiple draft picks and FAs.
However, IIRC, I don't think JM said Eli was the starter in '18. If correct, that leaves the door open to have both, then puts pressure on Eli to play better or get pulled, OR, say : If I can't be starter no matter what , let me go. Takes pressure off FO, call it Eli's decision, move forward.
In any case they will have to build an OL the next 2+ FA and draft in front of WHOEVER is taking the snap or Ws will still be rare.
As others have said, you can have both.
On the flip side, why is everyone so sure that it would not be a disaster to take Darnold or Rosen? Either has just as much chance at crashing and burning as succeeding. Think about a team lacking a running game for years and has a 2 time SB MVP at QB, yet they pass on Barkley and take a QB. They need to be 100% correct with that QB, I'll tell you that much.
If what you're looking for in a QB is a slam dunk, you'd never take one. "an't miss" guys fail. We've seen a number of QBs who were not the biggest name on the board have early success in recent history.
That's not the point. You mentioned accuracy as if it was the biggest dealbreaker. There are plenty of QBs that could be more accurate, including Eli's entire career.
And it is exactly what they should do.
They can’t do both. Both would require hitting homeruns with their remaining 5 draft picks and smashing FA. Possible but not probable.
The only “both” scenario is if the Giants trade down and still take a QB. I wouldn’t hate it as I think Rudolph is just as good as the other guys and no one is hyping him. Outside of that, it’s two very clear alternatives — franchise QB pick and the long rebuild or trade down and try to turn the roster now with the picks.
Odds are it will happen.
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Building around Eli and drafting a QB with the second pick are not mutually exclusive!
And it is exactly what they should do.
They can’t do both. Both would require hitting homeruns with their remaining 5 draft picks and smashing FA. Possible but not probable.
The last time they were in this position was 2004, and back then their offensive line situation was nightmarish as well. They fixed it then. It's fixable now and it doesn't require that every move be perfect.
One, is the cost, is it possible with the cap to pay a high QB pick and Eli? Two, it is saddling the new coach with a built in QB controversy. The moment Eli bounces a pass week one, or God-forbid have a multi pick game, the whole city will be screaming to play the new guy. It also is not fair to Eli. He may want a clean start as well and not have a young QB breathing down his neck. Eli is a great guy and teammate, but he has been the man for over a decade, he may not want the risk of being replaced.
I would love the mentor plan. I am certain Eli is still a winning QB and that the Giants may not replace him for a generation. But, the team may have a top two pick. They have no choice but to grab a QB and hope, against all odds, he is the next Eli. It would be negligent to not do this. This means Eli's career as a Giant is over.
I really am certain Eli has two games left in blue. I can't believe it has ended like this, but it is what it is.
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the accuracy isnt the only issue with Allen, just the most glaring. And although I dont watch a lot of college ball - if you were just making a comparison between Allen and our current Giants QB - I dont think thats fair to our current Giants QB. I dont think Allen is on his level as a prospect.
That's not the point. You mentioned accuracy as if it was the biggest dealbreaker. There are plenty of QBs that could be more accurate, including Eli's entire career.
No, that actually wasnt my point. Maybe you’re a fan of Allen so thats what you zeroed in on because you felt the need to defend him - I really dont know, but my overall point was that all of these QBs are flawed. I was pointing out what I perceived to be the most talked about. Maybe its not his accuracy and its something else. Substitute whatever you’d like, it makes no difference and doesnt change the point...being that none of these QB’s are as high tier as some others in past drafts and that a top 5 pick isnt the spot you draft a QB like one of these just because you need one. I also said that things can change between now and the draft with regard to evaluations.
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One, is the cost, is it possible with the cap to pay a high QB pick and Eli? Two, it is saddling the new coach with a built in QB controversy.
The cost is manageable. The Giants salary cap situation is healthy and they will have room to make the moves they deem desirable. As for the potential for a QB controversy should the Giants get off to a slow start, Eli is a big boy who has been around long enough to weather it. It will be up to him to play well and lead the team to victories. If he is failing at that, so be it.
I don't perceive that being how Manning handled the situation this year.
That's not to say the coach, GM, or owner handled it well at all -- but Manning didn't "weather" anything this year at all.
He took the proposition as an insult and chose not to play.
If he's going to do that next year if the same scenario unfolds, maybe it's best he does ask to be traded.
yes, eli will turn 37 this january. he will turn 38 the january after that. so all of next season, eli will be 37 years old. look, i get it. he is the third oldest QB in the league (the oldest are brady and brees). but it is a win now league and if you asked any giant fan or personnel guy (other than reese or mcadoo) what positions have been the problem this season, no one would say QB. eli has plenty of gas in the tank and his supposed decline has been much exaggerated around here. rounding his age up a year or two for no reason other than to further bolster the crock-of-shit case that he's "done" is just stupid.
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And anyone that acts like they do is trying to make themselves look like they do.
The process is far from over and anything is possible right now. Anything.
This...without knowing who the gm and hc are anything is a guess
Well if they think they MIGHT have something in Webb. It would not be a bad idea to trade down, just a little, but still be able to take Barkley. You would have OBJ,Barkley, Engram, and Sheppard as an offensive core. You could argue that is top 5 talent at RB, TE, WR, and Slot. Use the extra picks you get to beef up OL, LBs, Safety and Corner. Roll dice with the current DL. JPP, OV, Moss? and Owarka at DE are OK. Snacks, Tomlinson, and Bromley are ok.
He took the proposition as an insult and chose not to play.
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In comment 13751001 Sy'56 said:
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And anyone that acts like they do is trying to make themselves look like they do.
The process is far from over and anything is possible right now. Anything.
This...without knowing who the gm and hc are anything is a guess
Well if they think they MIGHT have something in Webb. It would not be a bad idea to trade down, just a little, but still be able to take Barkley. You would have OBJ,Barkley, Engram, and Sheppard as an offensive core. You could argue that is top 5 talent at RB, TE, WR, and Slot. Use the extra picks you get to beef up OL, LBs, Safety and Corner. Roll dice with the current DL. JPP, OV, Moss? and Owarka at DE are OK. Snacks, Tomlinson, and Bromley are ok.
QBs aren't the only position that bust, but their value if you hit it right is astronomical.
If you trade out of #2 and get 4 picks out of it, you cannot assume all 4 will just "plug a hole" on the laundry list/wish list of positions people keep tossing out.
Honestly, the calculus is this simple: the Giants are only get a pic this high like once every 15 years. When you pick this high this infrequently, and you have a strong QB class, you take your shot.
People weren't as high on Goff or Wentz as this crop - how are those two QBs doing?
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In comment 13751259 Milton said:
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In comment 13751245 chopperhatch said:
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OR the other. Why cant we draft our guy, let Webb stay where he is and let Eli play out his last 2 years while the young guys c learn. At the very least one more year of Eli makes sense
Exactly. Give Eli and the offense a year to see what they can do. If the Giants are a winning team in 2018 than stick with what works for 2019. If Eli falters, you go with (hopefully) Rosen in 2019.
p.s.--People shouldn't forget that in the Green Bay playoff game last year, Eli was money. He wasn't the reason they didn't move on to the next round.
this. eli is not, and has never been, the problem. reese had been subtly criticizing eli for nearly a decade (calling him "skittish", etc.). that partially explains why he wasted numerous draft picks drafting guys like andre woodson, rhett bomar and ryan nassib, instead of just finding a solid veteran backup. he finally got a coach in mcadoo who had a similar negative view of eli. my point is that reese was not building the team in a way that helped eli to succeed. when he finally attempted to address the OL, it was too late, and he botched it badly, whiffing on multiple draft picks and FAs.
If they do take a QB, I would seriously consider keeping Webb as well and letting the two young QBs battle it out in camp for the #2 job.
I cant think of a better scenario honestly: Eli getting another chance at glory (maybe two). Us having a young, talented quarterback who will most likely be, willing to defer to and learn to a borderline hall of fame QB and hero to the franchise. Webb, with something to prove, has another year of tutelage under Eli and competes like hell with the draft pick. Being a 3rd rounder he should know he has work to do. Maybe he out performs the draft pick in consecutive training camps and gets the starting nod. Maybe he or the draft pick become nice trade pieces a la Garropolo and Brisset for the Pats. Maybe we have a back up for years.
This is not an all or nothing situation for the Giants.
QBs aren't the only position that bust, but their value if you hit it right is astronomical.
If you trade out of #2 and get 4 picks out of it, you cannot assume all 4 will just "plug a hole" on the laundry list/wish list of positions people keep tossing out.
Honestly, the calculus is this simple: the Giants are only get a pic this high like once every 15 years. When you pick this high this infrequently, and you have a strong QB class, you take your shot.
People weren't as high on Goff or Wentz as this crop - how are those two QBs doing?
wentz is on IR due to his reckless style of play and the eagles offense has barely missed a beat with foles starting.. goff is doing ok, but so was josh freeman in his first full year as a starter.
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In comment 13751151 Powerclean765 said:
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they'd be in the QB market in the draft regardless of Eli.
That said, the Giants should make it seem like they want a QB to entice other team's to trade up. No need to be leaking this stuff. Loose lips...
I keep seeing this stupid narrative about the Giants hurting their trade leverage if they decide not to go QB and teams know it. How the hell does that make sense? There are tons of teams that are desperate for a QB that will competing with each other to move up. Why was it that when San Fran was in the two spot, everyone was saying that they will be able to get a huge haul for the pick from a team that needs a QB, but when it’s the Giants, they won’t get shit because they have loose lips. Ridiculous.
All that said, I’d be more than shocked if they don’t go QB. But if they decide not to, teams will be tripping over themselves to trade up with them.
Is it really that hard 2 understand?
Yes. Because I don’t understand stupid.
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That's not to say the coach, GM, or owner handled it well at all -- but Manning didn't "weather" anything this year at all.
He took the proposition as an insult and chose not to play.
He didn't take it as an insult, he took it as them treating a regular season game like it was a preseason game and correctly pointed out that it wasn't fair to anyone involved: not him, not Geno Smith, and not the rest of the team. It wasn't about being insulted, it was about pointing out the stupidity of the planned half-and-half division of labor that McAdoo had come up with. Rather than being insulted, Eli showed his maturity and wisdom when he said you may as well just start Geno.
That is an extraordinary different interpretation of the events than I have - and that's fine to agree to disagree.
The more interesting point for me is what will occur next year if largely the same situation would to unfold, what Manning expects to happen.
With an opportunity to get your next franchise QB, provided the decision makers believe in it, you absolutely take the QB with such an early draft pick.
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In comment 13751234 Milton said:
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Building around Eli and drafting a QB with the second pick are not mutually exclusive!
And it is exactly what they should do.
They can’t do both. Both would require hitting homeruns with their remaining 5 draft picks and smashing FA. Possible but not probable.
The last time they were in this position was 2004, and back then their offensive line situation was nightmarish as well. They fixed it then. It's fixable now and it doesn't require that every move be perfect.
Not even close. When Eli was drafted, Seubert, O’Hara, and Diehl were already on the team. They also had Pettitgout who was solid at the time.
The current OL has one guy and he’s about to enter his 5th year option.
People say it’s fixable, but with who? The FA’s are weak. No one of McKenzie’s caliber is hitting the market anytime soon. That leaves the draft — and like I said, the Giants would have to smash their remaining 5 picks if they plan on going QB at 2 and hoping for a quick turn around. Not realistic.
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is guaranteed.
QBs aren't the only position that bust, but their value if you hit it right is astronomical.
If you trade out of #2 and get 4 picks out of it, you cannot assume all 4 will just "plug a hole" on the laundry list/wish list of positions people keep tossing out.
Honestly, the calculus is this simple: the Giants are only get a pic this high like once every 15 years. When you pick this high this infrequently, and you have a strong QB class, you take your shot.
People weren't as high on Goff or Wentz as this crop - how are those two QBs doing?
wentz is on IR due to his reckless style of play and the eagles offense has barely missed a beat with foles starting.. goff is doing ok, but so was josh freeman in his first full year as a starter.
Wentz was the MVP of the league until he got hurt. Suggesting that they are in just as good hands with Nick Foles is absolutely laughable. Congratulations, he barely scraped by the 2-12 Giants. You don’t think the Eagles would like to have Wentz back? Hahahahaha. The shit you read on this board.
QBs aren't the only position that bust, but their value if you hit it right is astronomical.
If you trade out of #2 and get 4 picks out of it, you cannot assume all 4 will just "plug a hole" on the laundry list/wish list of positions people keep tossing out.
Honestly, the calculus is this simple: the Giants are only get a pic this high like once every 15 years. When you pick this high this infrequently, and you have a strong QB class, you take your shot.
People weren't as high on Goff or Wentz as this crop - how are those two QBs doing?
The Giants would get plenty more than 4 picks in a trade down.
It’s not just about plugging holes. This roster is rotten at core areas — OL and front 7 on defense. They don’t even have bodies at LB. There’s no pipeline behind Vernon and JPP. The OL has maybe one decent player under contract for next year. The talent simply isn’t there in FA and 5 draft picks won’t fix it even if they hit homeruns at every pick.
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In comment 13751367 WillVAB said:
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In comment 13751234 Milton said:
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Building around Eli and drafting a QB with the second pick are not mutually exclusive!
And it is exactly what they should do.
They can’t do both. Both would require hitting homeruns with their remaining 5 draft picks and smashing FA. Possible but not probable.
The last time they were in this position was 2004, and back then their offensive line situation was nightmarish as well. They fixed it then. It's fixable now and it doesn't require that every move be perfect.
Not even close. When Eli was drafted, Seubert, O’Hara, and Diehl were already on the team. They also had Pettitgout who was solid at the time.
The current OL has one guy and he’s about to enter his 5th year option.
People say it’s fixable, but with who? The FA’s are weak. No one of McKenzie’s caliber is hitting the market anytime soon. That leaves the draft — and like I said, the Giants would have to smash their remaining 5 picks if they plan on going QB at 2 and hoping for a quick turn around. Not realistic.
I don’t think your memory is very good. The OL Eli walked into was a dumpster fire. Everyone hated Pettigout, and Seubert and Diehl were not respected until years later.
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is guaranteed.
QBs aren't the only position that bust, but their value if you hit it right is astronomical.
If you trade out of #2 and get 4 picks out of it, you cannot assume all 4 will just "plug a hole" on the laundry list/wish list of positions people keep tossing out.
Honestly, the calculus is this simple: the Giants are only get a pic this high like once every 15 years. When you pick this high this infrequently, and you have a strong QB class, you take your shot.
People weren't as high on Goff or Wentz as this crop - how are those two QBs doing?
wentz is on IR due to his reckless style of play and the eagles offense has barely missed a beat with foles starting.. goff is doing ok, but so was josh freeman in his first full year as a starter.
Foles was an MVP candidate in his second year. Frontrunner, actually.
And now Goff's season should be written off cause Freeman was good his rookie year also? Come on.
Both those QBs are, at the moment, looked at as Franchise QBs. That was my point.
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In comment 13751489 Sonic Youth said:
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is guaranteed.
QBs aren't the only position that bust, but their value if you hit it right is astronomical.
If you trade out of #2 and get 4 picks out of it, you cannot assume all 4 will just "plug a hole" on the laundry list/wish list of positions people keep tossing out.
Honestly, the calculus is this simple: the Giants are only get a pic this high like once every 15 years. When you pick this high this infrequently, and you have a strong QB class, you take your shot.
People weren't as high on Goff or Wentz as this crop - how are those two QBs doing?
wentz is on IR due to his reckless style of play and the eagles offense has barely missed a beat with foles starting.. goff is doing ok, but so was josh freeman in his first full year as a starter.
Wentz was the MVP of the league until he got hurt. Suggesting that they are in just as good hands with Nick Foles is absolutely laughable. Congratulations, he barely scraped by the 2-12 Giants. You don’t think the Eagles would like to have Wentz back? Hahahahaha. The shit you read on this board.
wentz tore his ACL and it's a question of whether he will play next year, and whether he will ever be the same player. we've seen a similar story written with RG III, though i don't think wentz has the 5 cent head griffin has. foles could start on multiple NFL teams, he's not some garbage backup a la ryan nassib or geno smith. the eagles barely scraped by the giants due to the precipitous decline of their defense over the last three weeks. not due to foles. come on now.
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In comment 13751489 Sonic Youth said:
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is guaranteed.
QBs aren't the only position that bust, but their value if you hit it right is astronomical.
If you trade out of #2 and get 4 picks out of it, you cannot assume all 4 will just "plug a hole" on the laundry list/wish list of positions people keep tossing out.
Honestly, the calculus is this simple: the Giants are only get a pic this high like once every 15 years. When you pick this high this infrequently, and you have a strong QB class, you take your shot.
People weren't as high on Goff or Wentz as this crop - how are those two QBs doing?
wentz is on IR due to his reckless style of play and the eagles offense has barely missed a beat with foles starting.. goff is doing ok, but so was josh freeman in his first full year as a starter.
They beat our garbage 2-11 team.
Foles was an MVP candidate in his second year. Frontrunner, actually.
And now Goff's season should be written off cause Freeman was good his rookie year also? Come on.
Both those QBs are, at the moment, looked at as Franchise QBs. That was my point.
and my point is that it's too early to crown either of these guys. wentz might be out of the league in 5 years with his style of play. goff has had a very solid second season, no doubt.
Seubert — Giants picked him up in ‘01
Diehl — Giants drafted him in ‘03
O’Hara — Giants picked him up in ‘04.
Three key pieces to the dominant Giants OL were already on the team before Eli was drafted. They drafted Snee a round after Eli and got McKenzie before the ‘05 season. 4 pieces were on the team before training camp in ‘04 and the Giants had everyone before the ‘05 season.
Who do the Giants have on the roster right now they can move forward with along the OL? Flowers? That’s one guy. Some people say we’ll be aggressive in FA. Who? The talent pool is piss poor. O’Hara and McKenzie aren’t out there this year. That leaves the draft — and as I said earlier, the Giants only have 5 picks if they go QB to hit on 4 OL, 3 LB, and at least 1 DE.
So back to my original point, the Giants have to make a clear choice. Either they go QB and dig in their heels for a 3 year rebuild, or they move forward with Eli, trade down, and replenish the roster with cheap, young, talent.
You’re having revisionist reflections of how things were during the draft period of 2004.
You’re having revisionist reflections of how things were during the draft period of 2004.
Everyone’s feelings in ‘04 is irrelevant. Most of the pieces were there. What pieces do the Giants have now? Flowers, who has been up and down and is nearing the end of his rookie deal. Maybe Wheeler. That’s it.
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You were probably one of the guys screaming for Gallery that season. If you were around then, you’d know that there were TONS of posters wanting Gallery because the OL was an absolute shit show. Diehl was a late bloomer, Giants fans were always bitching about him at that time. And Seubert was known as a gritty backup then.
You’re having revisionist reflections of how things were during the draft period of 2004.
Everyone’s feelings in ‘04 is irrelevant. Most of the pieces were there. What pieces do the Giants have now? Flowers, who has been up and down and is nearing the end of his rookie deal. Maybe Wheeler. That’s it.
2004 is very relevant because it proves that the OL at all costs herd would have passed up a chance at our franchise QB while taking an OL that simply didn’t deserve to be picked there. It’s very similar to this season. You don’t pass up the chance to potentially land a franchise QB for a lineman thatvhas justvas much chance to fail.
Based on how the line matured last decade -- Wheeler, Flowers and Jerry by that logic could progress into a solid line with a draft pick and a solid free agent pick-up.
As a comparison, our 2017 RB's have run for less than 1000 yards combined and 4 TD's (all four of them combined).
The line had something to do with that.
As a comparison, our 2017 RB's have run for less than 1000 yards combined and 4 TD's (all four of them combined).
Tiki Barber is a borderline Hall of Famer. I’m sure Orleans Darkwa would have been bound for Canton behind that line. Great comparison.
Robert Gallery!!! I guess all of those calls were because of the dominant OL the Giants had leading into that draft. You guys sure have short memories...
A tweeter? Maybe to the lunatics that didn’t know better but I’m thinking he proved that narrative completely wrong, no?
Based on how the line matured last decade -- Wheeler, Flowers and Jerry by that logic could progress into a solid line with a draft pick and a solid free agent pick-up.
Jerry is what he is. He’s 31 years old for Christ sake. Absurd to even speculate he could be a piece of the OL of the future.
O’Hara being “mid range acquisition” means nothing to me. Show me a potential FA with his upside right now.
The facts are the facts. Anyone can try to spin them anyway they’d like, but 3 pieces of the most dominant OL in the history of the franchise were on the roster before Eli was drafted. The remainder was acquired before Eli stepped on the field in season 2.
Even the eternal optimist can only project Flowers and Wheeler as potential star building blocks and that’s a stretch. Where do the other 3 starters come from? Who is/are the FA’s that will help the OL? Who are you drafting?
He was orders of magnitude better going into 2004 than any player on this roster, and not a tweener.
That said, the Giants should make it seem like they want a QB to entice other team's to trade up. No need to be leaking this stuff. Loose lips...
This idea that they should try to make it seem like they want a QB to somehow increase their own leverage is a little bit silly. You can't claim that you want a QB and then be willing to trade out of your slot without implicitly giving up that claim in the process. Bluffing on intent increases Cleveland's implied leverage, not the Giants'.
If your goal is to trade out of your slot, you're better off being at least somewhat transparent that you're open for business. It doesn't necessarily have to be a QB-needy team that looks to trade up; it can be someone looking to get in front of Indianapolis for Chubb or Barkley, for example. But you can't play it from both sides and say you want a QB but you're willing to trade your pick, because it begs the question of how badly you want a QB in the first place.
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O'Hara was a very, very mid range acquisition. Suebert was a major medical question mark, and Diehl hadn't established a position.
Based on how the line matured last decade -- Wheeler, Flowers and Jerry by that logic could progress into a solid line with a draft pick and a solid free agent pick-up.
Jerry is what he is. He’s 31 years old for Christ sake. Absurd to even speculate he could be a piece of the OL of the future.
O’Hara being “mid range acquisition” means nothing to me. Show me a potential FA with his upside right now.
The facts are the facts. Anyone can try to spin them anyway they’d like, but 3 pieces of the most dominant OL in the history of the franchise were on the roster before Eli was drafted. The remainder was acquired before Eli stepped on the field in season 2.
Even the eternal optimist can only project Flowers and Wheeler as potential star building blocks and that’s a stretch. Where do the other 3 starters come from? Who is/are the FA’s that will help the OL? Who are you drafting?
You are drastically exaggerating the pedigree of O'Hara when he was acquired. He signed a modest 3 year deal and coincidentally was about Jerry's age when he played his best football.
Basically any center signed this year to slightly above the league minimum has the perceived potential he did when he came here.
That's not to say the current group is going to pan out. Chances are they won't.
It's miraculous a cheap free agent, late round pick, and UDFA with a catostrophic leg injury turned into 3/5 of a dominant line.
He was orders of magnitude better going into 2004 than any player on this roster, and not a tweener.
The bottom line is that the line was infinitely better in 2004 than it is now. And it was in most of the years that Barber was playing. I'm not the idiot that initially tried to argue that this year's line and 2004's line are similar.
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In comment 13751681 christian said:
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O'Hara was a very, very mid range acquisition. Suebert was a major medical question mark, and Diehl hadn't established a position.
Based on how the line matured last decade -- Wheeler, Flowers and Jerry by that logic could progress into a solid line with a draft pick and a solid free agent pick-up.
Jerry is what he is. He’s 31 years old for Christ sake. Absurd to even speculate he could be a piece of the OL of the future.
O’Hara being “mid range acquisition” means nothing to me. Show me a potential FA with his upside right now.
The facts are the facts. Anyone can try to spin them anyway they’d like, but 3 pieces of the most dominant OL in the history of the franchise were on the roster before Eli was drafted. The remainder was acquired before Eli stepped on the field in season 2.
Even the eternal optimist can only project Flowers and Wheeler as potential star building blocks and that’s a stretch. Where do the other 3 starters come from? Who is/are the FA’s that will help the OL? Who are you drafting?
You are drastically exaggerating the pedigree of O'Hara when he was acquired. He signed a modest 3 year deal and coincidentally was about Jerry's age when he played his best football.
Basically any center signed this year to slightly above the league minimum has the perceived potential he did when he came here.
That's not to say the current group is going to pan out. Chances are they won't.
It's miraculous a cheap free agent, late round pick, and UDFA with a catostrophic leg injury turned into 3/5 of a dominant line.
Here are more facts. 3/5 of the OL was on the roster prior to the ‘04 draft. 4/5 during the draft, and 5/5 before the ‘05 season. The OL didn’t peak until ‘07. That’s 3 years until the unit hit its stride — so how in the world could anyone think this current Giants team could do “both” taking a QB at 2 with the much maligned Flowers the only decent incumbent along the OL?
O'Hara was signed 7 weeks before that draft. It's not like he was really "already on the team" for any material length of time. And Diehl was a 5th round pick the year prior, who was promising, but not necessarily guaranteed to be the lunchpail stalwart that he became. Seubert was a starter the entire season in 2002, but only played six games in 2003. And didn't play at all in 2004, followed by only playing four games (started one) in 2005, and then only started three games (played in 14) in 2006. He regained his full-time starting role in 2007. Petitgout was the closest thing to a sure thing going into the 2004 offseason, but even he only played 10 games in 2003.
You're applying a historical context of what you know those guys wound up being, but it wasn't some sure thing in late April of 2004. The offense, and specifically the OL, was absolutely in flux heading into the 2004 offseason.
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Not even close. When Eli was drafted, Seubert, O’Hara, and Diehl were already on the team. They also had Pettitgout who was solid at the time.
O'Hara was signed 7 weeks before that draft. It's not like he was really "already on the team" for any material length of time. And Diehl was a 5th round pick the year prior, who was promising, but not necessarily guaranteed to be the lunchpail stalwart that he became. Seubert was a starter the entire season in 2002, but only played six games in 2003. And didn't play at all in 2004, followed by only playing four games (started one) in 2005, and then only started three games (played in 14) in 2006. He regained his full-time starting role in 2007. Petitgout was the closest thing to a sure thing going into the 2004 offseason, but even he only played 10 games in 2003.
You're applying a historical context of what you know those guys wound up being, but it wasn't some sure thing in late April of 2004. The offense, and specifically the OL, was absolutely in flux heading into the 2004 offseason.
If you’re insinuating this Giants team can repeat history with the OL (that took 3 years to develop), who are the hidden gems currently on the roster? Who are the FA acquisitions? Who are the draft picks?
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In comment 13751542 WillVAB said:
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Not even close. When Eli was drafted, Seubert, O’Hara, and Diehl were already on the team. They also had Pettitgout who was solid at the time.
O'Hara was signed 7 weeks before that draft. It's not like he was really "already on the team" for any material length of time. And Diehl was a 5th round pick the year prior, who was promising, but not necessarily guaranteed to be the lunchpail stalwart that he became. Seubert was a starter the entire season in 2002, but only played six games in 2003. And didn't play at all in 2004, followed by only playing four games (started one) in 2005, and then only started three games (played in 14) in 2006. He regained his full-time starting role in 2007. Petitgout was the closest thing to a sure thing going into the 2004 offseason, but even he only played 10 games in 2003.
You're applying a historical context of what you know those guys wound up being, but it wasn't some sure thing in late April of 2004. The offense, and specifically the OL, was absolutely in flux heading into the 2004 offseason.
If you’re insinuating this Giants team can repeat history with the OL (that took 3 years to develop), who are the hidden gems currently on the roster? Who are the FA acquisitions? Who are the draft picks?
We don't necessarily have those guys on the roster, but we might. The point is, if you had asked that same question in December of 2003, you'd have gotten the same answer that you're trying to imply, which is that the OL sucks and needs a total rebuild. 14 years ago today, we had an injured Petitgout, a severely injured Seubert (who would take three years to get back to full strength), a promising but unproven rookie in Diehl, and O'Hara was not yet on the team.
You can't claim that the OL was in any better condition at this point at the end of the 2003 season than it is today. That's simply not accurate. And we only know that there were building blocks there that would eventually become a good OL, but that's only with the benefit of time and hindsight, which - by definition - we don't have with our current OL.
And that's without even mentioning that you really can't use Petitgout and Seubert in the same argument as it relates to the OL that would eventually protect Eli. By the time Seubert returned to full strength, Petitgout had been released. Again, hindsight for the purposes of the argument you've been trying to make for a while here, which is that you're simply not in favor of drafting a QB at the top of this draft. And that's fine - you're entitled to that opinion, and no one can say with any absolutes that you're right or wrong until it plays itself out. But it is a fact, as some have noted, that there were plenty of people who wanted Gallery instead of Eli in 2004, too. And we know which guy wound up being the right pick.
The facts are the facts. Anyone can try to spin them anyway they’d like, but 3 pieces of the most dominant OL in the history of the franchise were on the roster before Eli was drafted. The remainder was acquired before Eli stepped on the field in season 2.
Even the eternal optimist can only project Flowers and Wheeler as potential star building blocks and that’s a stretch. Where do the other 3 starters come from? Who is/are the FA’s that will help the OL? Who are you drafting?
The facts are the facts, but there's some twisting of facts here to make the facts fit one side of an argument. Yes it's a fact that those guys were on the roster. No, it is not a fact that anyone felt they would become great or star building blocks. That 2003 line was an injury-riddled trainwreck. Anyone who says they saw Diehl becoming an 11 year starter is lying though their teeth. As mentioned, Seubert didn't even get back to playing football until 2007. There were building blocks on that line, but their greatness was certainly not a readily apparent slam dunk.
And by using that offensive line group as an example, you answered your own question. There's an excellent chance that you are not going to see where the other 3 starters come from. Because you don't always see it. Sometimes they come from nowhere like a Diehl, like a victor cruz, like a cast-off from a loser Browns franchise who would develop into an excellent if undersized Center.
The answers aren't always as obvious the high draft pick or the big splash free agent signing.
The Giants have two unknowns on the OL in Flowers and Wheeler, and that’s an optimistic assessment. The rest is trash. There is no McKenzie waiting for the Giants to give him a contract in FA. Even the ‘19 class looks like slim pickings. That leaves the draft — and hoping the new GM can hit on the mid rounders our prior GM was completely incapable of. I just don’t see it, but if you or anyone else has a realistic plan I’m all ears.
The Giants have two unknowns on the OL in Flowers and Wheeler, and that’s an optimistic assessment. The rest is trash. There is no McKenzie waiting for the Giants to give him a contract in FA. Even the ‘19 class looks like slim pickings. That leaves the draft — and hoping the new GM can hit on the mid rounders our prior GM was completely incapable of. I just don’t see it, but if you or anyone else has a realistic plan I’m all ears.
I'll repeat that on this day 14 years ago, a lot of people would have said that the OL was trash. Diehl was unproven, Petitgout was already developing back problems, Seubert suffered a broken leg so severe that many thought he'd never play again, and O'Hara wasn't signed until a few months later. It's not like McKenzie was on the radar at that point and we were just waiting an extra year to sign him. We didn't know that we'd draft Snee or what he'd become.
It's entirely possible that Wheeler becomes a steady LT with a full offseason program to prepare. It's possible that Flowers continues the improvement he's shown this year and becomes a strength of the team by moving to RT. It's possible that Jones turns out to be a steady, if unspectacular starter at C or OG.
And that's assuming that Pugh and Richburg are both gone and/or show no future improvement. And it doesn't account for Bisnowaty, who obviously has shown nothing this year, but he wouldn't be the first OL prospect to show absolutely nothing in his rookie year only to develop in year two or three. I'd expect that we'll probably invest in the OL in the draft as well, much as we did with Snee in 2004 (Braden Smith or Billy Price would be interesting at the top of round two), and could sign an unheralded UFA (a la O'Hara) that becomes a mainstay.
The point is, this OL is not in any worse condition than the trainwreck that the OL was late in the 2003 season. That OL was nowhere near the unit it eventually became yet at that point, and using 20/20 hindsight to claim otherwise just feels disingenuous.
That unit was a disaster. Wayne Lucier and Chris Bober?
There was talent waiting in the wings, but I call total bullshit if you say going into 2004 it was a clear those players would mature into part of a dominant unit in 3 years.
Rich Suebert's leg and career were in complete jeopardy. The Giants took a flier on the extremely unheralded Shaun O'hara.
David Diehl was a nice surprise at RG as a rookie - but there was plenty of discussion as to whether he was good or the depth was that bad.
The point is adding a player in the draft and free agency can 1) improve the talent on the line 2) improve the play of the incumbent players.
They don't have to nail several draft picks this year, and there is point of fact a free agent center available with many of the same question marks as Shaun O'hara after the 2003 season - Westin Richberg.
The primary question has to be: can the team realistically win a championship with Manning?
If the new GM feels they can, then by all means keep him, re-stock, and go after it.
But with a new coach, new offensive system, new defensive system, and plenty of holes all over the roster - I don't see a championship team in 2 years.
This feels an awful lot like 2004 to me.
QBs aren't the only position that bust, but their value if you hit it right is astronomical.
If you trade out of #2 and get 4 picks out of it, you cannot assume all 4 will just "plug a hole" on the laundry list/wish list of positions people keep tossing out.
Honestly, the calculus is this simple: the Giants are only get a pic this high like once every 15 years. When you pick this high this infrequently, and you have a strong QB class, you take your shot.
People weren't as high on Goff or Wentz as this crop - how are those two QBs doing?
Neither would be that good if not for their O-Line play this year. Oh, and running game.