I read this board very often, don't post much, but I keep up with the general consensus here as much as I can. To me it seems that it's a foregone conclusion that the new regime will want a clean break from Eli Manning and will want to bring in their own QB to start with a clean slate. I get that. But, can't it be said that we already still have a franchise QB on this roster (maybe another in Davis Webb who the organization seems to be high on), who, if given proper protection and support, can still get it done, and can probably do it for at least a few more years?
Furthermore, if you look at many of the "grading" site that analyze players entering the draft, much of them have guys like OG Nelson, RB Barkley, and DE Chubb all graded ahead of the 2 QB's.
Again, I get the Ernie Accorsi mindset of if there's a franchise QB available, you take them, but IMO the addendum to that should be "if you don't already have one."
Again, IMO, I wouldn't draft a QB just to draft a QB. You have three guys that WILL be available that are top tier talents at positions that can are need spots for this team and if the right strings are pulled this offseason, especially in FA, this team can contend next year.
So if I was the new GM, I'd probably select one of those three guys, with Barkley and Nelson being my #1A and #1B choices at the second overall pick.
Feel free to fire away!
Not taking a QB in a strong QB draft with a top 3 pick is terribly short sighted.
This mindset is exactly what has gotten this team into trouble.
The answer is simple. You don't rest on your laurels. You always have a backup plan. You always have depth. You are always proactive in filling holes before they actually become holes instead of being reactive after the fact. You keep funneling talent.
And we did select a QB with a top pick last year in Davis Webb, is that NOT funneling talent to a position?
And we did select a QB with a top pick last year in Davis Webb, is that NOT funneling talent to a position?
A third round draft pick is not a top pick, and QB is the most important position on the team.
For me its Darnold or bust in round 1. If he is gone then I go in a different direction since I don't feel as comfortable with the other QB prospects. Can't argue with you there.
If Darnold is gone, I would be hard-pressed to pass on Barkley. It would be between him and Nelson at that point. I might also entertain moving back for more picks. I would still consider picking a QB in round 2 like Jackson if that option were available.
Even if you are correct and Eli is still a franchise quarterback, the Giants should of draft his successor while they have the chance.
I ll State it again, they have the second pick this year.
As to the consensus about the quarterbacks coming out, there are always questions about their transition to the pro game
What about Deshawn Watson last season.
I m not sure that some in the camp of "not taking a quarterback " aren't more Eli fans than Giants fans.
Every player has question marks. There's no position in team sports more important than the QB. Don't believe me? Check out the Niners record the last 4 games or so.
Now he has as many good games as mediocre ones as bad ones, and the trend is clearly to the latter. As a result, sometimes we win and mostly we don't.
But to your OP question, if you don't want to replace our non-franchise QB, then I would go with the Guard but sure as hell would listen to offers to jump back for others team wanting to grab their next franchise QB...
The difference is that none of these QB's is Eli, Rivers, or Roethlisberger. Granted, it's all subjective and not worth debating though.
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We have Kerry Collins, is Eli/Rivers/Roethlispervert going to be really be better?
The difference is that none of these QB's is Eli, Rivers, or Roethlisberger. Granted, it's all subjective and not worth debating though.
They all had question marks coming out.
Yes let's keep our 37 year old QB whose only under contract for 2 years and pass up on the potential of a 10-15 year QB. Makes sense!
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In comment 13756869 Sarcastic Sam said:
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We have Kerry Collins, is Eli/Rivers/Roethlispervert going to be really be better?
The difference is that none of these QB's is Eli, Rivers, or Roethlisberger. Granted, it's all subjective and not worth debating though.
They all had question marks coming out.
That wasn't my point. I know that every player has question marks. I don't see any Darnold, Rosen, Allen, or Mayfield rated as highly as Manning, Rivers, and Roethlisberger.
Neither Eli should be on the team next year.
-He, Eli, and Webb go into training camp in a straight up competition. (Eli said yesterday he welcomes this).
-If Eli wins, he starts and plays until one of the other guys surpasses him. No "mentorship". No holding the spot until someone else is ready. It's not a waste if the drafted QB has to sit for a year or two.
People are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.
Barkley and Chubb are "once in a decade talents"?
So, Gurley and Elliott are already putting up MVP, Eric Dickerson like stats.... but hey, these other guys are "once in a decade" so 3000 all purpose yards every season here we come apparently. I do admit, i am intrigued now.
Your arguments would be stronger without the senseless hyperbole.
they don't and wont..when blindly attached to him
Eli's 37 and not performing like he's part of the solution.
The 2003 San Diego Chargers. Finished 4-12, and had the number one overall pick.
Their QB, Drew Brees, was coming off his 3rd season and they thought he was a bum, and wanted to draft a real "franchise" QB, so they drafted Eli Manning and traded with us for Rivers, yada yada yada....
I've always asked this, ever since it happened... What would have happened with the Chargers had they shown more patience, stuck with Brees and taken Larry Fitzgerald instead?
Can you imagine that 2004, 2005, and beyond team with:
Brees
Tomlinson
Fitzgerald
Gates
And if you think about it, we have skill positions like that, too... So just imagine a roster on offense of:
Eli
Barkley
Beckham Jr.
Engram
Believe it or not, with a couple of savvy FA signings on the offensive line and a new offensive scheme, this offense could look 1000 times different next year... Better.
I understand the age thing with Eli, but even if you take a Barkley now, whenever you do address the QB situation down the line (if it's not Webb), he's showing up with a loaded roster and ready to step in and succeed right away. Like Rivers did when he finally took the field for the Chargers in 2006.
He’s a big part of why we stink. Yeah, keep blaming the line or the RB and the dropped balls. They’re part of it too. But if you don’t think terrible play by Eli isn’t playing a big part, you’re delusional.
Franchise QBs don’t require All-Pro talent around them in order to survive. Eli is a guy at this juncture of his career who unfortunately needs everyone and everything to go right around him. You don’t field a competitive team that way and really can’t in today’s NFL. You also can’t keep paying a declining player franchise QB money.
It’s time to restructure the organization and then rebuild the roster and reface the team in terms of its play, personnel, etc.
eyes folks. This Eli is still 'a franchise QB' is absurd.
What have some of you been watching...
I'm turning the page, it's time.
I'm turning the page, it's time.
I don't think the O-line is as far off as people think.
I put the blame fully on Reese for that. If we had a Whitworth instead of a John Jerry, we might have been in business this year.
What if one of these QB’s ends up being a franchise caliber 12 year starter? The age does matter & this is such a rare place to be picking.
His physical skills have. His arm strength is deteriorating, his accuracy and timing are suffering and are now contributing to dropped passes and it’s not just on the receivers. I know it’s popular by the Eli brigade to simply blame the receivers all the time. He’s missed a ton of intermediate and deep throws the last two months. He’s always been terrible on short passing.
He also occasionally looks like a demented old man now in the pocket which has contributed to some awful sacks and fumbles.
While I’m also glad that McAdoo and Reese were fired, let’s not be blind to the fact that while the Giants handled the benching situation terribly, Eli definitely deserved to lose playing time going forward.
They need to either leverage the #2 pick to get Darnold, or they need to trade down and stockpile, but it's time to start working on Eli's successor.
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it's just a number until his physical skill starts eroding.
What if one of these QB’s ends up being a franchise caliber 12 year starter? The age does matter & this is such a rare place to be picking.
Spread QB's scare me.
I've said it before, the difference between the 2004 class and this class is they all played in pro style offenses in college.
They were more NFL ready. QB's have a higher bust potential than ever before because of the spread offense.
The last "true" franchise QB to come out was Luck. You just don't see guys like that come out that often.
2. Any football expert or executive will tell you that QB is the most important position on the field. If/when you have a chance to draft your next franchise QB, you do it. This happens to be perfect timing for us just like in 2004. the ONLY reason we were able to get Eli was because we sucked the year before. If we had the 15th pick in the draft who knows what the last 13 years would have been like for us or whether we would have won the two Superbowls. So, you take the QB.
3. You cannot select an entire offensive line with our first pick in the draft. If you could replace the entire line with one pick, then different story. The OL can be fixed via free agency.
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That's a lot of stars that must align, imv. The OL needs parts and time to develop cohesion, the backfield and split end are needs, our pass rush is zero as is the LB corps.
I'm turning the page, it's time.
I don't think the O-line is as far off as people think.
I put the blame fully on Reese for that. If we had a Whitworth instead of a John Jerry, we might have been in business this year.
Wishful thinking Britt and unfortunately that’s for a parallel universe to decide that outcome. This is where we are and what’s happened has happened.
They need to either leverage the #2 pick to get Darnold, or they need to trade down and stockpile, but it's time to start working on Eli's successor.
Flowers was improving. I'm not giving up on him yet. What we need is guys between them to help solidify the line.
Flowers, FA Guard, Richberg, FA Guard, Pugh
Or
Flowers, FA Guard, Richberg, Pugh, FA Tackle
Something like that. A couple of Veterans that can make calls and help these guys.
I don't think many Giants fans would be too upset if they don't go the QB route, but if you haven't noticed, most teams who don't take advantage of their draft status by not taking a QB early when they have the opportunity, pay the price. And this year is a strong class for QB's, can't really pass that up, even if Eli starts for the next year or two.
And please, lets not hang your hat on Webb, who was a low third round pick, and I'm not even sure if he was activated yet this year. Your gonna put your eggs in that basket?
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I'm not seeing many UFA solutions coming up for the OL to get it done. Early look suggests no LT prospect worthy at #2.
They need to either leverage the #2 pick to get Darnold, or they need to trade down and stockpile, but it's time to start working on Eli's successor.
Flowers was improving. I'm not giving up on him yet. What we need is guys between them to help solidify the line.
Flowers, FA Guard, Richberg, FA Guard, Pugh
Or
Flowers, FA Guard, Richberg, Pugh, FA Tackle
Something like that. A couple of Veterans that can make calls and help these guys.
You’re staking your O Line to two guys who have been either disappointing or perpetually hurt the last two seasons in Richburg and Pugh. Flowers is not a LT.
Pugh is in a tough position. Thanks to his injury, he might not get what he was hoping for in FA. So if he can come back at a discount, I wouldn't mind that either (though I would ensure there is depth if and when he is hurt again.)
Fluker is a decent backup but the rest have to go. There might not be much in the way of FA but it might also be time to get a little aggressive and make some trades if they can. Its time to fix this shit.
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I'm not seeing many UFA solutions coming up for the OL to get it done. Early look suggests no LT prospect worthy at #2.
They need to either leverage the #2 pick to get Darnold, or they need to trade down and stockpile, but it's time to start working on Eli's successor.
Flowers was improving. I'm not giving up on him yet. What we need is guys between them to help solidify the line.
Flowers, FA Guard, Richberg, FA Guard, Pugh
Or
Flowers, FA Guard, Richberg, Pugh, FA Tackle
Something like that. A couple of Veterans that can make calls and help these guys.
What makes you think Richburg and/or Pugh will be here?
That's just how I view the pro offense vs spread offense.
I wouldn't. I'd take Barkley.
The 2003 San Diego Chargers. Finished 4-12, and had the number one overall pick.
Their QB, Drew Brees, was coming off his 3rd season and they thought he was a bum, and wanted to draft a real "franchise" QB, so they drafted Eli Manning and traded with us for Rivers, yada yada yada....
I've always asked this, ever since it happened... What would have happened with the Chargers had they shown more patience, stuck with Brees and taken Larry Fitzgerald instead?
Can you imagine that 2004, 2005, and beyond team with:
Brees
Tomlinson
Fitzgerald
Gates
And if you think about it, we have skill positions like that, too... So just imagine a roster on offense of:
Eli
Barkley
Beckham Jr.
Engram
Believe it or not, with a couple of savvy FA signings on the offensive line and a new offensive scheme, this offense could look 1000 times different next year... Better.
I understand the age thing with Eli, but even if you take a Barkley now, whenever you do address the QB situation down the line (if it's not Webb), he's showing up with a loaded roster and ready to step in and succeed right away. Like Rivers did when he finally took the field for the Chargers in 2006.
You can't dismiss the age difference with a throwaway line. It's not only a consideration, it's THE consideration.
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you can't force that #2, and take the best offensive lineman. That is what kind of got us in trouble with our current offensive line. Makes me think you don't need 1st round talent at that position in order to be successful.
I wouldn't. I'd take Barkley.
Wasted pick when you don’t have a QB. Teams will stack the box on Barkley and he’ll be wasted here.
I wouldn't. I'd take Barkley.
Barkley is not even going to be as good as he has been hyped.
You have entered the period where you have to find Eli's replacement. Webb could be that guy as could 4 or 5 of the guys in the draft. Trust the process...even if you are concerned it has not worked well recently. Apple and Flowers were not bad picks as much as they were picks that did not pan out as hoped.
the are going into the most important offseason over the last 2 decades without truly knowing to its full extent what they have at the most important position on the roster.
It can be said that if the Chargers kept Brees instead of Rivers they probably have that ring instead of the Saints. The Bucs got their number one overall pick in Winston and how good do they look? It’s is an overwhelming certainty that the majority of the top QB’s selected in the first don’t do well and the Giants seem to be in a position to cause more questions than answers by going into the off season without giving Webb a real look.
By not treating Eli like every other QB who is on a 3 year decline it has placed this franchise in a potentially dire situation for the next five seasons
And sometimes you have to stick with the conviction of your evaluation. Nobody felt Goff or Wentz was worth being picked where they were up until the point they started playing like rising stars.
Didn't he have over 1000 yards and 10 TD's his rookie season, and average 4.8 yards per carry?
How's he look this year after just one savvy free agent signing in Whitworth?
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In comment 13756960 barens said:
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you can't force that #2, and take the best offensive lineman. That is what kind of got us in trouble with our current offensive line. Makes me think you don't need 1st round talent at that position in order to be successful.
I wouldn't. I'd take Barkley.
Wasted pick when you don’t have a QB. Teams will stack the box on Barkley and he’ll be wasted here.
I'd prefer one of the QB's, that said, if teams stack the box with Barkley, I don't think Manning would have too much trouble finding Beckum or Engram down the field. But teams aren't going to automatically stack the box unless Barkley proves he's worthy of it.
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that putting a stud #1 draft pick behind a garbage offensive line doesn't fix anything?
Didn't he have over 1000 yards and 10 TD's his rookie season, and average 4.8 yards per carry?
How's he look this year after just one savvy free agent signing in Whitworth?
IMO Whitworth isn't the whole story in LA. It's Goff in year 2, plus WR additions like Cupp, Woods, and Watkins.
Whitworth helps of course, but watching them as much as I have in my amateur opinion, he's only a part of the Gurley turnaround.
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In comment 13756963 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 13756960 barens said:
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you can't force that #2, and take the best offensive lineman. That is what kind of got us in trouble with our current offensive line. Makes me think you don't need 1st round talent at that position in order to be successful.
I wouldn't. I'd take Barkley.
Wasted pick when you don’t have a QB. Teams will stack the box on Barkley and he’ll be wasted here.
I'd prefer one of the QB's, that said, if teams stack the box with Barkley, I don't think Manning would have too much trouble finding Beckum or Engram down the field. But teams aren't going to automatically stack the box unless Barkley proves he's worthy of it.
Travis Beckum hasn't been with the Giants since 2012. I think Eli would have a really hard time finding him down the field.
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In comment 13756979 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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that putting a stud #1 draft pick behind a garbage offensive line doesn't fix anything?
Didn't he have over 1000 yards and 10 TD's his rookie season, and average 4.8 yards per carry?
How's he look this year after just one savvy free agent signing in Whitworth?
IMO Whitworth isn't the whole story in LA. It's Goff in year 2, plus WR additions like Cupp, Woods, and Watkins.
Whitworth helps of course, but watching them as much as I have in my amateur opinion, he's only a part of the Gurley turnaround.
Right... Goff is now one of the better QBs in the league. He was also viewed by many as better than Wentz coming out of the draft.
Manning to Beckum!! - ( New Window )
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that putting a stud #1 draft pick behind a garbage offensive line doesn't fix anything?
Didn't he have over 1000 yards and 10 TD's his rookie season, and average 4.8 yards per carry?
How's he look this year after just one savvy free agent signing in Whitworth?
Had a great rookie year and then flopped in the 2nd year, looked dreadful enough that people were calling him a bust.
And Whitworth's been great, but if we're talking rebuilding, signing a 36 year old tackle for the long term isn't that. It would have made more sense for the Giants to sign him for 2017, and I wouldn't have even liked the look of giving a player that age a long term deal.
The players we need here just don't come available. Offensive linemen are so hard to get now that teams don't let the 25 year old good player coming off his rookie deal just walk away.
Mason Rudolph is better than Webb.
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to overlook true once in a decade talents in Barkley, Chubb, or Nelson in favor of drafting a QB (or QB's) that have several question marks surrounding their future?
Every player has question marks. There's no position in team sports more important than the QB. Don't believe me? Check out the Niners record the last 4 games or so.
That's why I like trading down. With more picks in the first few rounds you have a greater chance of getting a solid player who can fill some gaps (even if he isn't going to be in the Hall of Fame).
True franchise QBs do what Peyton did in 2010: make a bad team competitive. Granted, he had Garcon and Wayne, but the receivers were still there in 2011 (and healthier). Replace Manning with Curtis Painter or an ancient Kerry Collins, and you have a winless disaster. Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady have won with awful supporting casts too. Drew Brees won seven games with the worst defense in the history of football.
Obviously, the parallel between 2010 IND and 2017 NYG is imperfect, and maybe Peyton would have lost 12 games with this crew too. I'm just not sure what a franchise QB is if he desn't put some kind of floor under his team.
2. Any football expert or executive will tell you that QB is the most important position on the field. If/when you have a chance to draft your next franchise QB, you do it. This happens to be perfect timing for us just like in 2004. the ONLY reason we were able to get Eli was because we sucked the year before. If we had the 15th pick in the draft who knows what the last 13 years would have been like for us or whether we would have won the two Superbowls. So, you take the QB.
3. You cannot select an entire offensive line with our first pick in the draft. If you could replace the entire line with one pick, then different story. The OL can be fixed via free agency.
Unfortunately, as JonC mentioned, there doesn't appear
to be much in UFA available on the O Line.
I checked it out myself about a month ago at OTC.
There wasn't much available.
When you have holes to fill and there is no long term solution, you sign the short term solution and hopefully groom the successor and have a nice transition.
You don't just say, eff it and leave the hole there because there are no 25 year old solutions.
That is how you stay competitive. Especially when you screw up in the draft. Its called being proactive.
Players will be cut due to cap reasons from as many as half the teams in the league. Any team with under $20M in cap space is a decent candidate to have to cut players to add more room.
It's good to monitor the FA market now, and I'm sure most FO's are, but it's not how it will wind up in March IMO.
especially on teams who have regime changes.
True franchise QBs do what Peyton did in 2010: make a bad team competitive. Granted, he had Garcon and Wayne, but the receivers were still there in 2011 (and healthier). Replace Manning with Curtis Painter or an ancient Kerry Collins, and you have a winless disaster. Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady have won with awful supporting casts too. Drew Brees won seven games with the worst defense in the history of football.
Obviously, the parallel between 2010 IND and 2017 NYG is imperfect, and maybe Peyton would have lost 12 games with this crew too. I'm just not sure what a franchise QB is if he desn't put some kind of floor under his team.
I believe a more qualified head coach would have schemed around the talent deficiencies. I think just how poor a job McAdoo did on offense is being left out of the equation. Yes, he's gone, but we're still working within the confines of his playbook.
If they had started Webb instead of Geno and let him play the remainder of the season AND Webb showed promise it might have been the only reason to not draft a QB. A giant organizational failure was made in not having Webb ready to play.
So here we are, saddled with a declining QB that is not worth his salary and likely the number 2 pick in the draft. Stop with the stupid. We need to draft a QB at 2 regardless of what we think of Webb from running the fucking scout team. Keeping Eli and fielding a mediocre team to fill people's sentimental needs is a waste. Draft a young salary controlled QB, deal with his growing pains and build the team around that QB's strengths. Stop wasting time.
It has to be taken into consideration.
And yes, he was the offensive coordinator before, but it is impossible to argue the change in our offense from Coughlin to McAdoo.
It has to be taken into consideration.
And yes, he was the offensive coordinator before, but it is impossible to argue the change in our offense from Coughlin to McAdoo.
I don't understand why this is not clear to so many. The offense only truly started to suck when McAdoo was head guy.
Also, if Eli declining somewhat led to the offense being league worst, I guess he really was important all these years
It has to be taken into consideration.
And yes, he was the offensive coordinator before, but it is impossible to argue the change in our offense from Coughlin to McAdoo.
Nope, it is meaningless. He will be 37 in few days. He will get worse, inevitable. It is time to move on, far too large a risk to gamble on subjective evidence that Eli is still a franchise QB. It is very rare to have a number 2 pick. Combine that with with having a 37 year old QB in decline you have to make the pick if a franchise QB is there.
And everybody said he was done then, too. He bounced right back.
The assumption is that the offensive line will be upgraded, since free agency happens before the draft.
Yep, 18 TDs 27 INTs. if anything McAdoo rejuvenated his career
There are basically two sides:
1. It's Eli
2. It's a total team failure
All we can do is watch it play out.
Eli might have a couple more good years in him. It is not worth the risk to take that gamble. Better to move on year too early than too late. Sentimentality is the only real reason to keep him. Not how you run a 2 billion dollar franchise.
There are basically two sides:
1. It's Eli
2. It's a total team failure
All we can do is watch it play out.
3rd side, it's 2 but Eli is part of the team and is 37 years old in a few days. Time for the future.
There are basically two sides:
1. It's Eli
2. It's a total team failure
All we can do is watch it play out.
It’s funny that you say that people refuse to budge. Because YOU absolutely fit into that same category.
And your number 1 is a perfect example. No matter how many times people say “Eli is NOT the only problem, but he’s not the solution either”, you continuously claim that anyone that dare criticize Eli’s play is blaming all of the teams problems on him. Why can’t it be both? I have not once seen anyone on this board say that Eli is the only problem, yet you keep saying that people feel that way.
You’re right, you’ve made your mind up and won’t listen to reason. Just keep making things up and putting words into people’s mouths.
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And refuse to budge. And that's fine, but I guess it's not worth discussing anymore.
There are basically two sides:
1. It's Eli
2. It's a total team failure
All we can do is watch it play out.
It’s funny that you say that people refuse to budge. Because YOU absolutely fit into that same category.
And your number 1 is a perfect example. No matter how many times people say “Eli is NOT the only problem, but he’s not the solution either”, you continuously claim that anyone that dare criticize Eli’s play is blaming all of the teams problems on him. Why can’t it be both? I have not once seen anyone on this board say that Eli is the only problem, yet you keep saying that people feel that way.
You’re right, you’ve made your mind up and won’t listen to reason. Just keep making things up and putting words into people’s mouths.
Haven't I said a million times that I'm fine with drafting a QB with our first pick?
So how am I not acknowledging the moving on?
What I will not budge on is my position that Eli is not in the steep decline that many people think he's in here.
And I've also backed up the reasons why a million times for that.
Like I said, at this point it's no longer worth discussing.
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that putting a stud #1 draft pick behind a garbage offensive line doesn't fix anything?
Didn't he have over 1000 yards and 10 TD's his rookie season, and average 4.8 yards per carry?
How's he look this year after just one savvy free agent signing in Whitworth?
You mean, how's he looking now that he's paired with a franchise QB who was the #1 overall pick?
There will be a running back next year we can take in the first round too. There won't be a sure opportunity to take a franchise QB at the top of the first though.
I could see it going either way. I'll leave it at this:
Things I wouldn't be surprised with....
1. Giants draft a QB and let him sit behind Eli for a year or two.
2. The Giants forego a QB and BBI melts down.
3. Eli decides he doesn't want to be a mentor and asks for his release. Finds success elsewhere.
4. The Giants are successful in a one year turnaround regardless of roster move or QB.
But like I said, it's not worth it anymore, and none of what any of us says makes a difference anyways.
With a creative OC (not likely with the old farts running the Giants) a team centered around Barkly at RB, OBJ at WR, and Engram at H-back should be a threat to score from anywhere on the field.
Remember that some of the supporting cast - Shepard and Ellison, at least are solid foundation players in their own right.
Stay with Manning or commit to Webb. If staying with Eli, he needs to rededicate himself to quality as far as accuracy is concerned. I am not really talking about completion percentage here, but rather hitting the aforementioned big 3 in stride.
If the new regime feels like Webb is their guy, than you either trade down and stock pile picks or take Barkley or the OL from Notre Dame.
There's no other reason to pass on a QB with the 2nd pick other than you feel like the guy you drafted last year is the future.
Eli Manning will be 37 years old. You don't pass on a franchise QB because you still have a 37 year old QB with two more years to go.
We also know that Eli is not a bust. The same cannot be said about the alternatives.
Someone who can be activated over Geno Smith maybe is a start.
We also know that Eli is not a bust. The same cannot be said about the alternatives.
You must have missed the Arizona game last week...
and still do but this doesn’t prevent you from drafting a top flight prospect.
You also have to realize that the regime that is/was high on Webb is being wiped out of the organization. Huge likelihood they want to pick their own favorites or at the very least double their chances of securing the QB position.
Of course stuff like that doesn't happen in the real world.
Akin to finding a pile of money in the street and grabbing just a $10 bill and leaving...
Of course stuff like that doesn't happen in the real world.
Huh?
B. It doesn't mean that they're not going to give Webb a chance. Competition is always good. 2 young QBs competing increases our odds of having the franchise QB that has eluded so many teams.
Putting all your eggs in a 3rd round pick like Webb is what stupid franchises do. If he does end up being the franchise, you trade the other.
It is the most critical position in sports. You always have to be thinking about a transition plan once your QB hits the 30-32 range.
And an organization can't assume health. Eventually, your QB will get hurt. It's just the nature of the sport. (Eli's career is a complete outlier with no missed games.)
Eli is not going to play forever. Webb is a huge ?
And the most stupid thing so far is claiming that even if Webb if the equivalent, you would pass on a player like SB to pick another QB.
Also seeing the world with blinders suggests that either Rosen or Darnold is better than Eli 2018/2019.
and still do but this doesn’t prevent you from drafting a top flight prospect.
You also have to realize that the regime that is/was high on Webb is being wiped out of the organization. Huge likelihood they want to pick their own favorites or at the very least double their chances of securing the QB position.
So he doesnt have a skillset? Good Christ.
EVERY college QB is a project. Webb is no more a project than Trubisky, Mahomes, Darnold or Allen. All spread QBs that dont currently know how to play NFL football.
Webb is 6’5”, cannon arm, very smart, passionate about football and put up similar performance to Goff at Cal despite being there only 1 year. And since he’s turned pro he immediately sought out Jim Zorn to start learning footwork, looked good in preseason, clearly handles the media well, has showed the it factor to teammates in college & most importantly shown Eli Manning-like work ethic. He holds up well to any comparison of recent 1st round QBs.
The Giants have the benefit of having this excellent prospect at a 3rd round salary too.
But sure, anyone who acknowledges his skillset is talking out of their ass. Eff you.
Also seeing the world with blinders suggests that either Rosen or Darnold is better than Eli 2018/2019.
I have no doubt that Darnold, Allen, LJax, Mason, and, this kills me to say it, Mayfield are far better athletes than Eli, and fit today's game better because all of them can makes plays outside of the pocket. It may take a year or two for these QBs to adjust to NFL speed/ complexity etc, but there are prospects in this draft class who have considerably better tools than Eli...
I prefer movement QBs particularly with the damage that OBJ and Engram can do if a QB can buy time.
However, Brady proves that there are other ways to get it done.
It's about 2019 and beyond, maybe through 2030. Even if Eli does bounce back next year, is he going to play until he's 50?
Re. Webb, there have been countless QBs drafted a lot higher than him, who seemed to have a lot going for them, who have not panned out.
And the most stupid thing so far is claiming that even if Webb if the equivalent, you would pass on a player like SB to pick another QB.
Also seeing the world with blinders suggests that either Rosen or Darnold is better than Eli 2018/2019.
You mean better than 2-14? No-one is suggesting Rosen/Darnold would come in and transform the Giants into a Super Bowl contender right away, but there is a reason why these guys are at the top of the draft board, and Webb was not. You've got to go with those percentages.
Plus, it's an extremely deep draft for running backs, Barkley is far from the only option.
I'm a big Eli fan, but the reality is he's near the end (how near is debatable) and they absolutely should be thinking about life after Eli and not simply assume Webb is the guy.
Competition is always good, why should the most important position be different?
moving on...
Sure, but Todd Gurley also illustrates that with a few improvements elsewhere on the offense, a RB can be a game-changing asset that elevates the entire team.
If we draft an RB of that caliber he may not make that impact in year 1, or even year 2. But unless the organization is totally incompetent, he'll likel...
...oh, right.
I think there are fans/BBI'ers that simply want a new QB to have something new to root for.
Coughlin went on record during a press conference stating that Eli needs the total package. In other words, he needs a well built team around him to succeed. What makes anyone think that the top two QBs won't need the same? In addition, no one knows if either of the top two picks would play well enough to get to the Super Bowl if they had a well built team around them.
About a 1/3 of an NFL roster turns over every year. It isn't going to take that long to build a better team around Eli. He is turning 37 (not 38) on January 3rd, 2018. He is entering his best years as a QB; not his worst. Both John Elway and Kurt Warner have gone on record saying that is when they were playing their best football.
The other thing that strikes me is the number of pro coaches that can't believe what they are seeing. The pro coaches know how hard it is to get a QB like Manning. I think they also know that he is not done; he can still play. I will be very surprised if the new coach runs Eli out of town in order to draft "his" QB.
You don't pick a QB just because you have the second pick in the draft. You pick a QB with the second pick in the draft if you think he is going to be good enough to lead you to a Super Bowl. The top two guys have a lot of question marks. There weren't a lot of question marks when Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck were evaluated. Those two guys were sure bets. That is what you are looking for - a sure bet with the 2nd pick overall.
It gets you killed in the NFL.
Northeast. Strong arm pocket passer. Thats what works.
It gets you killed in the NFL.
Northeast. Strong arm pocket passer. Thats what works.
And a running game.
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That's being left out a ton around here. Eli Manning's production fell off a cliff when McAdoo became head coach.
It has to be taken into consideration.
And yes, he was the offensive coordinator before, but it is impossible to argue the change in our offense from Coughlin to McAdoo.
I don't understand why this is not clear to so many. The offense only truly started to suck when McAdoo was head guy.
Also, if Eli declining somewhat led to the offense being league worst, I guess he really was important all these years
Eli in 2013:
57.5 comp pct
3818 yds
18 TDs
27 INTs
69.4 Rating
42.0 QBR
Overall, the offense finished 28th in both yards and points; 32nd in turnovers; 31st in scoring percentage. The offense didn't "truly suck" that year? Who was the head coach?
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how people arent high on Webb’s skillset. What else are you looking for?
Someone who can be activated over Geno Smith maybe is a start.
Yes, agreed. I'm looking for the kid to play so I can actually see for myself.
I agree! Time is a bitch... Unitas and Farr are perfect examples. At some point we all, even the gods, have to realize that we aren't what we used to be. Even when he has protection, it doesn't help his accuracy. Eli, it's time to start hanging out with Peyton.
Akin to finding a pile of money in the street and grabbing just a $10 bill and leaving...
seems giants fans and ownership believes eli has 10 more years in him as that direction is trending
It if I owned the Giants and had Brady as my QB, I would pick a QB withthe #2 pick. You simply have to do that; it’s the only choice. Each draft has to help the team next year but also four years or more down the road.
The Giants can absolutely win with Eli ar, given better health, a better environment, and better supporting players. But I don’t think they can win two years from now and definitely not three years from now. What they have is an opportunity that they won’t have for a long time, if they do things right. If they don’t, then they will this opportunity again, and again ad infinitum.
The case for Eli's resurgence rests on largely on stats. In short, a lot of fans who griped about the WCO inflating the QBR of Donovan McNabb et.al., have eagerly cited Eli's statistical improvement when McAdoo became OC.
IMO, 2014-2015 Eli was a fairly average WCO QB, and most analytics bear that out, the 65 TDs and 93-ish passer rating notwithstanding. Eli's stats in those years are roughly what you expect from a solid vet in that offense, especially with an explosive young receiver taking short passes to the house. Sure enough, he finished squarely in the middle of the pack statistically by almost every measure.
I don't blame him for leaning heavily on Beckham - any sane quarterback with a weapon like OBJ would have done the same. In an offense predicated on completing close to 70% and sustaining long drives, though, Eli's peak has been 63.1, and he has continued to turn the ball over too often for the WCO to be consistently successful. Eli wasn't the problem in 2014 and 2015, but he wasn't the solution, either. And the change of scheme was partly a concession to his fading ability to carry the team with Coughlin's playbook.
I have no idea whether Eli is done, because he appears sound physically and his struggles in 2016-2017 can largely be explained away by adverse circumstances. I just think 2011 is pretty far in the rear view mirror at this point, and there have been relatively few glimpses of that guy in the past five+ seasons.