Thoughts on what Gettleman will see from Manning when he re-watches this season and remains objective? Can Manning still make all the throws?
I have no background in football, so it is difficult for me to evaluate players. My gut and reading the comments from more knowledgeable posters (especially SY'56's game reviews) tells me Manning has declined somewhat, but still has something left in the tank. But curious as to what part of his skill set has declined? Arm strength? Accuracy?
To be clear I'm looking for objective analysis on his play this season. Such as "he is jittery in the pocket and is feeling a rush that isn't there" or "he it still making stupid turnovers a veteran should not be making".
I never thought Manning was in the same category as Brady, Rodgers, or Brees (as in the best of the best). But he always seemed to find an extra gear come playoff time, which seems important for any QB. From what I remember of the last playoff game against Greenbay I thought he looked pretty good.
Given the state of his OL and the horrid passing scheme BM employed, it is understandable why he struggled. The challenge for DG is if he feels Eli's issues are correctable in the short term. If so, I hope they bring in a strong QB coach to work with him, Webb, and potentially a draft pick.
Myself, I have no idea how to judge such a thing, especially given the limited WR talent we were working with since Week 5. If there's a throw that appears errant, I'm almost never sure whether that's Eli's fault or the receiver's. For years, most people around here would give Eli a pass and assume the receiver screwed something up. More recently, Eli has been catching more shit for it. I'm not sure what other folks know that I don't, but I'm fairly clueless about this stuff.
gentleman's "let me look at the tape" is a keeping-his-options-open statement that is hardly a ringing endorsement.
Its time for a change. I firmly believe it wont happen until at least 2019 though. I have accepted 2018 might be a qb waste season so Eli can please the fans and not be released, retire on his own after 2018. I think that is a very poor decision by our front office. Eli has regressed, and he knows it. Just wont admit it, has 20m+ reasons not to admin it, rightfully so.
You have an equal parts of him elevating other players to him making some terrible mistakes.
His audible to the Darkwa run the other day was masterful, but how many times has that been snuffed because of the OL play? He's made excellent throws to guys from the street and then thrown balls for INT's that had no business leaving his hand.
When he avoids the rush and throws the ball away, he has happy feet and when he stays in the pocket and crumbles, people complain he's a statue.
Has to be one of the toughest guys ever to categorize.
It's up to the people with better pay grades to make that decision because we could easily struggle with a middling replacement for the next few years just as much as we could keep him and have it backfire.
My take is that Eli still has the talent to play in this league another year or two, but he has slipped enough that he can't carry a team with a poor Oline like he did in 2011. There are not a lot of guys who can. Brady, Rodgers...maybe Brees still. That's about it.
My guess is Gettleman's evaluation will be based largely on what he wants to do with the QB position going forward. I would say Eli's biggest problem right now is that he simply does not trust the line and he hurries he throws and plays with poor footwork sometimes because of that. That won't likely be better next year even if they address the line in the offseason because he will need to gain trust in them which will take time after the past few years.
My guess is the Giants will draft a QB at #2, but bring Eli back for one more year while they let him learn. I don't think they will throw the new guy in unless the season goes off the rails like 2004 was when Eli came in for Warner. If they are competitive in 2018 Eli will play it out and then likely yield to the new guy in 2019.
In context, the team and offense was decimated by the end of the year, and not very good to begin with. Couple that with bad coaching and we saw a shit show the last 2 years. That is what will jump off on film.
We know about the offensive line. We know about the receivers. I think over time, by design, partly, the O was forced to throw the ball extremely quickly, and the protection was terrible. Eli got gunshy in the pocket and developed some bad habits. Falling away when he threw. not setting his feet. throwing early, forcing the ball (although he always had that habit, it was different with this group. He forced it only partly out of faith in his arm- partly out of desperation. also he didn't get much help)
I def. feel this can be overcome. One thing even Elis detractors will admit, is the guy is tough. I don't think he is afraid to stay in there and take a hit. Just happened way to often.
I don't think the new offense has to be designed around Eli(if he is here or not). It has to be designed around the NFC EAST. It needs to be balanced with a legit running game, and "throw with purpose" That suits Eli, but more importantly it is a proven recipe to win in the East.
Anyway, all that said, I believe the takeaway is Eli can still win, but the offense is absolute garbage, both personell and scheme.
That is only one piece of the puzzle, though. Those things need to be fixed regardless of who is the QB next year.
I think the film study that is more important for DG, is what he thinks of Webb, both his game film from last year and his practice film (whatever there may be), plus his evaluations from the coaches.
Then it is the film on the QBs coming out this year. If there is a legit franchise QB they can get, it is a no brainer. My contention is there is not. I am not an expert. Just a fan, but these guys do not excite me. And forcing a pick on QB, esp that early is catostrophic. That is what shitty teams do.
REPEAT. It is more damaging to take the wrong guy, then it is to miss out on a potentially good prospect.There are no great prospects this year, there is no consensus.
Evalutaing physical talent for the group of prospects is only part of the puzzle as well. There is a lot more to picking a QB then just how they can throw it. The mental make up is ,IMO, more important. toughness, work ethic, leadership, poise, decision making, and mental capacity. All very difficult to evaluate, but vital in success. Esp. in NY
The giants are in a really good spot. They have a QB and a prospect, and the second pick in the draft. They don't have to do anything.
His brain, which has always been one of his strengths, is a really hard part of the game to evaluate unless you are in the coaching room. That part of the game is often overlooked because it is very hard to evaluate if you don't have the coaches information and thoroughly understand what defenses are trying to do.
Perhaps the bigger question is how does Eli feel about such a scenario? If we draft a QB in round one it guarantees Eli won't finish his career as the starting QB of the New York Giants (assuming he wants to play 2-3 more seasons). So why not leave now and give yourself a window of opportunity with another team? Seems he'd just be looking over his shoulder from here on out with the Giants.
I think his accuracy is off, but it always has been. He still throws high, and has no touch on balls to the flat. But that's Eli.
My main issue is because his line has been shit for so long is he shell shocked? If we were to finally get him a good line again (next year) is he still going to have happy feet, fold with pressure easily, panic, or make wild throws? Is he traumatized?
Everyone says that if you put a team around him, Eli will produce. That might of been the case 1-3 years ago, is it still the case or does he suffer from PTSD?
as for the basic premise of this post, I think it would be a mistake for Gettlemen or anyone to try and make any judgement on Eli off of this season alone... there are so many other factors in play when evaluating 2017 (bad O Line, coaching issues, injuries, etc)
Rather I think it would make sense to judge Eli on his last handful of seasons (4-6)... and ask:
*what does he do consistently well, what does he not do consistently well?
*what other factors have contributed to his success or lack of success?
*What was his role in the overall losing culture of the past 6 years?
*What offense will he give you his best and is that what you plan on implementing going forward?
and despite what he says publicly, I think DG will do exactly that... he would be foolish to judge Eli on 1 game against a team he traditionally puts up big numbers against and assume that is what we will get week in and week out... and DG is not foolish, IMO.
I am fairly confident DG will not deem Eli worthy of his current $$ value, but the bigger question for him and his new HC is what are the other options available to you and what kind of timeline are you on for building the team back up again.
The sins of the fatheaded GM and the clueless McAdoo and his for-shit offensive scheme do not sit on his head. You don't "move on" from a guy like that when he is under contract unless you have his successor on the team which we don't.
"Evaluate" to your hearts content but that's is what it comes down to.
Eli left some plays out there this year. He missed 1-2 plays a game. Sometimes really big. Sometimes even more tha 1-2 but he can make all the throws he was making in 2005-2012. I think the offense left ZERO margin for error which can impact any QB.
I think Eli can be part of the solution. He was never a guy that could elevate the entire broken down offense but he's the guy you want if the offense is at least capable and the team is hunting in January. That's my take.
Gilbride:
“What I know is this guy’s going to be prepared. He’ll always be as selfless, as hard working, as professional as you could ask anybody to be. When I do watch him on film I see a guy who’s arm strength is still the same.
“As I’ve said on numerous occasions will never and never has solved problems with his feet. He’s not gonna do that. He can solve it with his arm, he can solve it with his brains, he can solve it with his heart. But, if you’re asking this guy to solve problems because of difficulty with protection and what have you with his feet you’ve got the wrong guy. That’s not who he is.”
Cosell:
Since those guys are pros, I think what Gettleman will see on tape will be closer to those opinions, rather than some of the BBI opinions on the matter.
Secondly, Gettleman was here before, knew Eli and Gilbride then, and will have that in his head as well.
So, with this as a background, how do you draw conclusions when he releases the ball early or has happy feet or misses an open receivers (who may have run the wrong pattern or made the wrong adjustment? A QB like Eli who doesn’t rely on athleticism doesn’t lose quickly. If you think Eli can’t do the job with a decent supporting cast, go back to football 101. Eli’s supporting cast, including the coaches was far from decent for a long time
Yes some years he has had better than others but he has never had the shitshow that the Giants have fielded the last 3 or 4 years...
All QB's need basic tools to win including a decent OL and a running game...
And the Giants have been league worst in those categories for quite some time...
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and will be mediocre in 2018,if you like older mediocre qbs,he is the guy.
I would challenge Dan Marino to be a star qb in this piece-of-shit offensive system from the HC you wanted with the crappy players furnished by the nimrod GM you supported.
eli has 81 picks since 2013 and countless fumbles,but its never his fault.he has been mediocre for years,just watch the games.
gentleman's "let me look at the tape" is a keeping-his-options-open statement that is hardly a ringing endorsement.
Clearly? Really?
Gilbride, who obviously holds Eli in high regard (as he should) basically says Eli is hardworking, is a selfless professional and hasn't lost arm strength. All good things but not exactly a ringing endt that he is a top notch QB we should be building around going forward. And again, I wouldn't expect Gilbride to say anything negative about the guy that won him 2 rings so not sure how much to even care about that little blurb.
and Cosell essentially called Eli a game manager. Ok, I'll accept that.
Neither of these things make me change my overall position that should a good alternative present itself (high draft pick, young veteran QB, trade oppty) we should pursue it. and I would hope DG would do the same.
If Eli is our QB next year, then I hope we have done enough around him so we get better production out of that position and can turn this ugly ship around sooner rather than later.
Mike, this is nonsense. There have been loads of Eli defenders and supporters over the years, but even they wouldn't be ignorant enough to claim Eli was ever the best QB in the league.
I think they will line up more with what Gettleman sees than what some of you see, frankly. No offense.
Gettleman knows the book on Eli already, his tape viewing will likely be built on prior knowledge of what he already knows of the player.
Too much of the debate is revolving around this narrow minded binary evaluation of Eli when there are other variables that will have a bigger influence on the direction of this franchise.
Manning has been an iron man to the fans and media, but only the medical staff know what he's played through and what he's medicated through. That's the first step. Are there any chronic conditions or deteriorations?
Secondly, is there a visible changes in his full body throwing motion? Does he still generate explosion in his lower body, is his arm motion generally still repeatable, is he flicking the ball more with his wrist?
On tape, with good protection and feet placement, is he getting the ball to the intended target with good speed and accuracy?
On shorter throws is his elbow as square as it once was? On his shorter throws is he getting the ball there with good zip and touch?
When the plays are unfolding, does he see openings, deceptions, closing windows as quickly as he once did? Is he throwing to spots that aren't open and is he hesitating to fire the ball before the play unfolds?
Or you know, the new GM might just say fuck it. Coughlin good, Reese bad. Let's roll.
Too much of the debate is revolving around this narrow minded binary evaluation of Eli when there are other variables that will have a bigger influence on the direction of this franchise.
Good post. Quite reasonable.
And he's had 128TD's.
Why that is conveniently left off says more about your agenda than the stats.
You have an equal parts of him elevating other players to him making some terrible mistakes.
His audible to the Darkwa run the other day was masterful, but how many times has that been snuffed because of the OL play? He's made excellent throws to guys from the street and then thrown balls for INT's that had no business leaving his hand.
When he avoids the rush and throws the ball away, he has happy feet and when he stays in the pocket and crumbles, people complain he's a statue.
Has to be one of the toughest guys ever to categorize.
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eli has 81 picks since 2013
And he's had 128TD's.
Why that is conveniently left off says more about your agenda than the stats.
Just for fun....
in the 5 years from 2013 through 2017
128 TD's and 81 INT's
in the five years from 2008 through 2012
144 TD's and 80 INT's
The last two years we have seen some of the shittiest offensive schemes and game planning in the history of the NY Giants. No real evaluation of any player can be done until that's first addressed
There are throws EVERY QB makes that make you go WTF...and the fact that Eli Manning is not (or will never be) Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers where they completely change the game furthers the "Eli is the problem" agenda.
Ive said it a million times already --- If there is a QB available at #2 that you have an absolute conviction he will be a franchise type player, then of course you take him.... but forcing the pick is the wrong move.
And watch some FULL games from the likes of the QBs other than Brady and Rodgers and you will see you can do a whole lot worse than Eli Manning on a broken offense.
The last two years we have seen some of the shittiest offensive schemes and game planning in the history of the NY Giants. No real evaluation of any player can be done until that's first addressed
I'm pretty sure the analysis of that system has been thoroughly addressed since the guy who implemented it is jobless.
The system sucked - the whole of the NFL and media world knew it. Opposing players made fun of our players about it. Our former players made fun of us about it in the media.
So then how do you weed out whether the decline in play of the quarterback and the system sucking are mutually exclusive?
I would hope the GM, new coach, medical staff, and pro-personnel staff will give run Manning up against the same due diligence they would an UFA.
I sure hope it's not predicated on "well the system sucks, I'm sure Eli is fine."
We should thank Eli for his time here and those 2 wonderful SB wins that now seem so long ago and move on.
Guys being completely open didn't happen very much at all and you can probably point to Lewis or King not hauling in deep passes as many times or more than ones where the passes were poor.
We should thank Eli for his time here and those 2 wonderful SB wins that now seem so long ago and move on.
Besides Brady and Rodgers (even that is questionable..) which QBs do you think could win games with that offense?
to our team
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eli has 81 picks since 2013
And he's had 128TD's.
Why that is conveniently left off says more about your agenda than the stats.
Just for fun....
in the 5 years from 2013 through 2017
128 TD's and 81 INT's
in the five years from 2008 through 2012
144 TD's and 80 INT's
i would call the 5yrs mediocre,that is just reality. he has not been good to very good,just mediocre. sorry if this bothers you.
I keep coming back to this: what is Eli really good at? what does he do that so well that a different QB couldn't do?
Conversely, what are we missing out on at the QB position that a different QB could be better at?
I struggle to find enough in the "what Eli does well" column to justify another year with him at the helm. I would rather take a chance with a new QB (even if it is a top rookie who we can build with) that has the potential for greatness going forward. And if I am betting, then I do not think Eli has another magical run in him before his football life is up.
I believe you've said that before (if not you, someone else said the same thing). Just curious - are you attributing any of Eli's perceived decline to Hurricane Sandy itself? Or is that just a chronological marker that comes more easily to you than saying "late October 2012"?
You have an equal parts of him elevating other players to him making some terrible mistakes.
His audible to the Darkwa run the other day was masterful, but how many times has that been snuffed because of the OL play? He's made excellent throws to guys from the street and then thrown balls for INT's that had no business leaving his hand.
When he avoids the rush and throws the ball away, he has happy feet and when he stays in the pocket and crumbles, people complain he's a statue.
Has to be one of the toughest guys ever to categorize.
This is very fair. In my mind the issue is not whether Eli has something left in the tank, but rather what the value is to him and the Giants of having him spend 1-2 more years on a team that is clearly not ready for a Super Bowl run. To the extent he can still play at a high level it would be a waste of his remaining career and to the extent his skills decline it would continue the controversy that has exploded this year while delaying the rebuild at the most vital position on the team.
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I believe you've said that before (if not you, someone else said the same thing). Just curious - are you attributing any of Eli's perceived decline to Hurricane Sandy itself? Or is that just a chronological marker that comes more easily to you than saying "late October 2012"?
the pitts game right after the hurricane,he was bad in the 2nd half as the giants lost a 4th quarter lead. the game victor cruz got lit up in the end zone by ryan clark.ever since then eli and the giants have been mediocre to bad.remember the falcon game after sandyhook and the baltimore no show at the end of the season,that is when the downfall started.
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In comment 13769215 sundayatone said:
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I believe you've said that before (if not you, someone else said the same thing). Just curious - are you attributing any of Eli's perceived decline to Hurricane Sandy itself? Or is that just a chronological marker that comes more easily to you than saying "late October 2012"?
the pitts game right after the hurricane,he was bad in the 2nd half as the giants lost a 4th quarter lead. the game victor cruz got lit up in the end zone by ryan clark.ever since then eli and the giants have been mediocre to bad.remember the falcon game after sandyhook and the baltimore no show at the end of the season,that is when the downfall started.
OK, but are you attributing the start of the downfall to Hurricane Sandy and/or Sandy Hook (which were about six weeks apart)? In terms of cause and effect, like those incidents affected Eli somehow?
Or are you just saying it was the same time, and referring to those incidents rather than saying "the second half of the 2012 season" (or something like that)?
That's what I am trying to understand.
Is he willing to become a mentor? If he is great. If he isn't trade /cut him.
Giantslifer : 1:55 pm : link : reply
Eli has been in steady decline for years. Still fumbles and throws interceptions like a rookie.
Favre did the same fucking thing and was considered a gunslinger. For eli, it is proof positive he's in "steady decline"?
Fuck me.
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Eli Options
Giantslifer : 1:55 pm : link : reply
Eli has been in steady decline for years. Still fumbles and throws interceptions like a rookie.
Favre did the same fucking thing and was considered a gunslinger. For eli, it is proof positive he's in "steady decline"?
Fuck me.
i know brett favre, brett favre is a friend of mine,eli is no brett favre.
Is he willing to become a mentor? If he is great. If he isn't trade /cut him.
Yeah ok. Take a walk asshole.
Just a terrible poster.
Carson Wentz
Russel Wilson
Alex Smith
Marcus Marriotta
Cam Newton
Derek Carr
etc......
Cam Newton and Alex Smith both did terribly without good lines. Just look at the Panthers post SB and the Chiefs 2 years ago.
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i know brett favre, brett favre is a friend of mine,eli is no brett favre.
Just a terrible poster.
and you are a terrible person skippy
At least now I know why your takes are so atrocious.
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In comment 13769215 sundayatone said:
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and will be mediocre in 2018,if you like older mediocre qbs,he is the guy.
I would challenge Dan Marino to be a star qb in this piece-of-shit offensive system from the HC you wanted with the crappy players furnished by the nimrod GM you supported.
eli has 81 picks since 2013 and countless fumbles,but its never his fault.he has been mediocre for years,just watch the games.
At least now I know why your takes are so atrocious.
another keyboard tuff guy loser,putz.
Eli is in decline, right? Everybody is pointing to statistics from 2013 to now. Five years of mediocre play, not being able to elevate those around him, etc... Think about how different the rosters were between 2008-2012 to 2013-2017... Think about the different WR's, TE's, and level of O-line play between those two five year chunks.
Here are the numbers over those two five year blocks:
2013-2017
20155 yards, 61% completion percentage, 128 TD's, 81 INT's
2008-2012
20142 yards, 61% completion percentage, 144 TD's, 80 INT's
An unbelievable difference of only 13 yards (!!), exact same completion percentage, 16 TD's, and 1 INT
That's actually unbelievably consistent, isn't it?
Where is the decline statistically, exactly?
But this decline and age sh-t has gotten outrageous.
It's a idiot field day. You don't know what you're watching.
It's all just bullsh-t, and nearly impossible to evaluate under the circumstances.
Good point Fatman, I forgot fumbles:
2008-2012: 38 Fumbles
2013-2017: 43 Fumbles
so maybe the argument isn't that he is in decline (which is not an argument I personally have ever made) but rather that he never was really all that great - but for 2 incredible post-season runs?
QB A 128TD/84 INT
QB B 138/66
QB C 164/63
QB D 153/73
QB E 133/66
I will start it off. Mr Sloppy is A.
Ben,Brees,Rivers and Matty Ice are the rest. Enough said. We need a new signal caller!!!!!!
Understanding why they hold that position is one I'll struggle with for a long time.
It is almost like having a contrarian badge of honor to lean on. At least as a fan, I understand people being forever grateful for a 2 time SB MVP. The logical side of me has a hard time reconciling the opposite view.
eli has 81 picks since 2013 and countless fumbles,but its never his fault.he has been mediocre for years,just watch the games.
Mediocre for years?
2014 - 4,400 yds, 30 TD's, 14 INT's, 63%, 7.3 YPA
2015 - 4,435 yds, 35 TD's, 14 INT's, 62.5%, 7.2 YPA
Funny how you parrot the Fox graphic from one of the games this year. What it doesn't say is that Eli's INT #'s for that period are skewed greatly by his 27 INT's in 2013. Even his biggest apologists will acknowledge that was a terrible year for him. From 2014, it is 111 TD's to 57 INT's.
So the only thing mediocre in your post is your post.
so maybe the argument isn't that he is in decline (which is not an argument I personally have ever made) but rather that he never was really all that great - but for 2 incredible post-season runs?
If you don't think his 2011 season is elite, I don't know what you were watching. He was a legitimate MVP candidate.
As you have noted, Eli's career is a difficult one to put into context. As a fan, I spent the better part of a decade defending his "greatness" and even now, have argued he is a HOFer when retires. I have celebrated his career and encouraged my sons to do the same through Eli shirts, posters, etc...
all that said, while he was perfect for the Giants for many years, he wasn't necessarily a consistently top QB when compared to what most consider the best of the bunch curing that stretch. His claim to fame is the 2 incredible SB runs. Without them, he maybe isn't even a Giant currently.
so despite the fact that it seems like I am some major anti-Eli crusader... what I actually am is a frustrated fan who thinks the team is in the midst of a much needed tear-down and rebuild, and I don't see the value of holding on to an older, expensive QB who doesn't necessarily excel at anything, and have us go .500 or worse for the next 2 years at the expense of developing our next QB.
I have made no definitive claims about what I know the future holds, b/c I don't. I have expressed my opinion, provided my reasoning, and peppered in some sarcastic comments along the way.
No more, no less.
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eli has 81 picks since 2013 and countless fumbles,but its never his fault.he has been mediocre for years,just watch the games.
Mediocre for years?
2014 - 4,400 yds, 30 TD's, 14 INT's, 63%, 7.3 YPA
2015 - 4,435 yds, 35 TD's, 14 INT's, 62.5%, 7.2 YPA
Funny how you parrot the Fox graphic from one of the games this year. What it doesn't say is that Eli's INT #'s for that period are skewed greatly by his 27 INT's in 2013. Even his biggest apologists will acknowledge that was a terrible year for him. From 2014, it is 111 TD's to 57 INT's.
So the only thing mediocre in your post is your post.
if you think eli has been better then mediocre the last 5yrs delete your account.he has been a losing qb on a losing team,case closed.
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In comment 13769283 sundayatone said:
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eli has 81 picks since 2013 and countless fumbles,but its never his fault.he has been mediocre for years,just watch the games.
Mediocre for years?
2014 - 4,400 yds, 30 TD's, 14 INT's, 63%, 7.3 YPA
2015 - 4,435 yds, 35 TD's, 14 INT's, 62.5%, 7.2 YPA
Funny how you parrot the Fox graphic from one of the games this year. What it doesn't say is that Eli's INT #'s for that period are skewed greatly by his 27 INT's in 2013. Even his biggest apologists will acknowledge that was a terrible year for him. From 2014, it is 111 TD's to 57 INT's.
So the only thing mediocre in your post is your post.
if you think eli has been better then mediocre the last 5yrs delete your account.he has been a losing qb on a losing team,case closed.
Great argument...when people start backing up facts that don't support your narrative they need to delete their account?
What a mongloid.
I understand he did not have much around him this year, but seriously, go back and re-watch games from 2009-2011 and tell me he is the same player. He has always been and always will be a turnover machine, but he had so many brilliant moments in spite of that. I thought it was funny that Gettleman mentioned the Eagles game, the one exceptional game Eli has played in 2 seasons.
He is not the same player he used to be, and just remember this, he will be even more limited next year. This is not going to be a smooth transition for fans, whenever it happens.
It also would help to conveniently remember to compare him having guys like Cruz, Nicks, Manningham, Bradshaw and that championship O-Line compared to the crap that's been trotted out the last few seasons..
It's up to the people with better pay grades to make that decision because we could easily struggle with a middling replacement for the next few years just as much as we could keep him and have it backfire.
My pay grade is fairly decent so I say move on.
Eli is not going to win us more games going forward. Giants should take a small step back at QB to make a big move forward...
Eli the past few years is nearly the same guy as the previous few years before it, so the comment about looking for things is probably dead on - but from the other side of the coin.
He is a really tough player to evaluate because you can't definitively say he's declined because he has been stuck in an atrocious system for two years. A historically poor one.
They have practice tape, his prep tape, his full historical medicals, and his post-season physical.
With this much financially and systemically at stake, the Giants will self-scout Manning like a free agent.
Manning's arm strength, reaction time and overall health are orders of magnitude more indicative of future production than TD:INT ratio in a system in which the operator was fired.
"Laugh my ass off at some of you"
Revised as of 9/11/2012
Quarterbacks are ranked according to DYAR, or Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement. This gives the value of the quarterback 's performance compared to replacement level, adjusted for situation and opponent and then translated into yardage. DYAR (and its cousin, YAR, which isn't adjusted based on opponent) is further explained here.
The other statistic given is DVOA, or Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. This number represents value, per play, over an average quarterback in the same game situations. The more positive the DVOA rating, the better the player's performance. Negative DVOA represents below-average offense. DVOA (and its cousin, VOA, which isn't adjusted based on opponent) is further explained here.
The simple version: DYAR means a quarterback with more total value. DVOA means a quarterback with more value per play.
Effective Yards, listed in red, translate DVOA into a yards per attempt figure. This provides an easy comparison: in general, players with more Effective Yards than standard yards played better than standard stats would otherwise indicate, while players with fewer Effective Yards than standard yards played worse than standard stats would otherwise indicate. Effective Yards are not the best way to measure total value because they are more dependent on usage than DYAR.
Total QBR (listed as just QBR) is a metric created by the ESPN Stats & Information group. Total QBR is based on the expected points added by the quarterback on each play, then adjusts the numbers to a scale of 0-100. There are five main differences between Total QBR and Football Outsiders' DVOA metric (with further explanation here):
Total QBR incorporates information from game charting, such as passes dropped or thrown away on purpose.
Total QBR splits responsibility on plays between the quarterback, his receivers, and his blockers. Drops, for example, are more on the receiver, as are yards after the catch, and some sacks are more on the offensive line than others.
Total QBR has a clutch factor which adds (or subtracts) value for quarterbacks who perform best (or worst) in high-leverage situations.
Total QBR combines passing and rushing value into one number and differentiates between scrambles and planned runs.
Total QBR is not adjusted for strength of opponent.
Further information about the table below:
Intentional clock-stopping spikes are not counted as passes, which may cause completion rate to be different from official NFL stats.
Fumbles count the same whether lost to the defense or retained by the offense.
DPI lists the number of plays and yards where the quarterback drew Defensive Pass Interference. These plays are incorporated into DVOA, DYAR, and Total QBR, but are not included in the totals for Passes or Yards.
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In comment 13769215 sundayatone said:
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I believe you've said that before (if not you, someone else said the same thing). Just curious - are you attributing any of Eli's perceived decline to Hurricane Sandy itself? Or is that just a chronological marker that comes more easily to you than saying "late October 2012"?
the pitts game right after the hurricane,he was bad in the 2nd half as the giants lost a 4th quarter lead. the game victor cruz got lit up in the end zone by ryan clark.ever since then eli and the giants have been mediocre to bad.remember the falcon game after sandyhook and the baltimore no show at the end of the season,that is when the downfall started.
The human mind forms associations where none exist.
As you have noted, Eli's career is a difficult one to put into context. As a fan, I spent the better part of a decade defending his "greatness" and even now, have argued he is a HOFer when retires. I have celebrated his career and encouraged my sons to do the same through Eli shirts, posters, etc...
all that said, while he was perfect for the Giants for many years, he wasn't necessarily a consistently top QB when compared to what most consider the best of the bunch curing that stretch. His claim to fame is the 2 incredible SB runs. Without them, he maybe isn't even a Giant currently.
so despite the fact that it seems like I am some major anti-Eli crusader... what I actually am is a frustrated fan who thinks the team is in the midst of a much needed tear-down and rebuild, and I don't see the value of holding on to an older, expensive QB who doesn't necessarily excel at anything, and have us go .500 or worse for the next 2 years at the expense of developing our next QB.
I have made no definitive claims about what I know the future holds, b/c I don't. I have expressed my opinion, provided my reasoning, and peppered in some sarcastic comments along the way.
No more, no less.
Cross out the "anti", and I'm the exact same. Goes both ways.
Eli is in decline, right? Everybody is pointing to statistics from 2013 to now. Five years of mediocre play, not being able to elevate those around him, etc... Think about how different the rosters were between 2008-2012 to 2013-2017... Think about the different WR's, TE's, and level of O-line play between those two five year chunks.
Here are the numbers over those two five year blocks:
2013-2017
20155 yards, 61% completion percentage, 128 TD's, 81 INT's
2008-2012
20142 yards, 61% completion percentage, 144 TD's, 80 INT's
An unbelievable difference of only 13 yards (!!), exact same completion percentage, 16 TD's, and 1 INT
That's actually unbelievably consistent, isn't it?
Where is the decline statistically, exactly?
Worth noting that in the same periods of time, our run game and overall offensive productivity totally fell off a cliff:
Total rush yards/total offensive yards
2008 - 2518/5695
2009 - 1837/5856
2010 - 2200/6085
2011 - 1427/6161
2012 - 1862/5687
Avg - 1968.8
2013 - 1332/4920
2014 - 1603/5875
2015 - 1609/5952
2016 - 1412/5291
2017 - 1549/5028
Avg - 1501
Hardly an in-depth statistical analysis but one cannot look at Eli in a vacuum. With that said, the McAdoo era (as head coach) clearly led to a precipitous drop-off in Eli's productivity.
He is simply not a winning QB for us anymore...
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Eli has been in steady decline for years. Still fumbles and throws interceptions like a rookie.What he has is stability and supposedly a desire to learn. The question is -
Is he willing to become a mentor? If he is great. If he isn't trade /cut him.
Yeah ok. Take a walk asshole.
Hey pencildick. clean up your mouth
Eli the past few years is nearly the same guy as the previous few years before it, so the comment about looking for things is probably dead on - but from the other side of the coin.
He is a really tough player to evaluate because you can't definitively say he's declined because he has been stuck in an atrocious system for two years. A historically poor one.
You say its tough to evaluate him yet also seem to be very clear that in your view he is the same.
Are you answering your own question or is it really not a question...