NGT: Shad Khan lauds Tom Coughlin for Jags success

bb come back

Arrogant JR survived and manipulated TC out of town and ownership bought it - house of cards fell down

back to Jacksonville.
Gettleman back to the Giants.
You CAN go home, again.

What's done is done. But Mara never should have wacked coughlin. I say that because what some of us were saying back in early 2016 is ringing true today-- and that is there aren't any great names available. Maybe Giants get lucky and find a good one but some of these vet HC names -- Schwartz? Man they just don't do it for me at all.....

Just to stop the whining I'll rephrase it and say It's not that the Giants shouldn't have fired Coughlin as much as they had to replace him adequately. And here we are....round 2.... get this right please. At least gettleman is here now. Mara.... sit back and watch now. Please.

Prior to Coughlin’s firing, they were pne of the most injuried team in football historically speaking. Not an excuse but definitely an explanation. Add bad drafting to that mix and your bound for failure.

Tom was making some questionable decisions on the sideline, but you don’t let a good football mind go.

the head coach, ya know.. who actually coached these guys to an AFC South title.

offered Coughlin the top front office position at a hefty salary, let him bring his own Coach in. He was an eye for Talent his first few years in Jacksonville when he was doing double duty and he sure is an eye for talent still.

Feels for him.

about football. Come on.

but the necessary changes in 2015 probably would have led to Coughlin being let go anyway.

Ideally, Reese should have been fired then. From there, you probably want the new GM to be able to pick his own head coach.

You could argue that the Giants could have bumped him into the front office, but remember that he's got a lot of pride, too. I'm not sure Coughlin would have let go of being the head coach to move elsewhere in the organization. If he was willing to do that, he probably would have given more consideration to Mara's offer of an advisory position.

Killer - can the Giants get Marrone since Tom is joysticking it from upstairs?

Letting go of Coughlin at the time, and still don't in retrospect. Reese should have been the first to fall on his sword.

that's strange, I read that Coughlin was nothing more than a figurehead in Jacksonville, since he wasn't the GM.

in the annals of league history in the sense that he was fired twice while being one of the best coaches in the game. Has anybody else ever suffered that ignominy ? Khan, and Jacksonville, rectified Weaver’s error. Weaver , at least, later admitted that firing Coach was the biggest mistake he made in his life. You don’t have to worry about Mara admitting that he was a jerk-off for doing the same thing. Way too much pride and vanity in that fellow.

It’s ancient history, now. Coughlin’s team is playing Sunday. Mara’s team is drafting very early come April. Looks like both parties got what they deserved .

They will just continue their crusade of scapegoating and assigning blame to the wrong people, and then aggressively and stupidly defend their stance, often doubling down by making up stupid narratives and twisting bizarre statistics to try and prove their original stance after it's clear as day that they were wrong, wrong wrong....

Coughlin...

Next up: Manning.

And when the next spread QB comes in here and falls flat on his face, they'll be doubling down on that, too.

I'd prefer that he just say "thank you" and move on.

Khan!!!

. . .

Of course, it doesn't give one single detail as to what exactly Coughlin has actually done, since almost all of the players and the coach were already there on the day he has hired, but then again no opportunity to exalt St. Tommy can be passed up.

The list of impact players on that team that Coughlin is responsible for is mighty short.

But you read some of these comments, you'd think he came in, tore the entire thing down and built a winning team all on his own.

It suffuses the locker room and makes the same players who were loses last year into winners this year.

If TC had been coaching this team the past two years the only difference would have been a few more wins this year and missing the playoffs last year.

for the playoffs.

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The dudes with pitchforks on BBI will never learn.... Britt in VA : 8:06 am : link : reply They will just continue their crusade of scapegoating and assigning blame to the wrong people, and then aggressively and stupidly defend their stance, often doubling down by making up stupid narratives and twisting bizarre statistics to try and prove their original stance after it's clear as day that they were wrong, wrong wrong....

Found the guy who doesn't own a mirror.

The same guys crowing about this story were falling all over themselves to praise Jacksonville's tremendous young talent a few years ago when Coughlin lost to a terrible Jags team.

McAdoo and Reese didn't even make it two seasons after Coughlin. They didn't even get to finish their second season.

Double down.

Uh, yeah... It got a lot worse.

here they come.

Jaguars were 3-13 last season; hand't won more than 5 games in a season in 7 years. They put one guy in charge and playoffs.

Let's see- he hires Marrone immediately, adds a hammer running back, a left tackle (granted, he drafted his LT in the 2nd round and not with the 9th pick in the draft. Oh, and moved up one spot in the draft to get the LT), drafted a wideout with the 3rd pick who caught more passes this season and for a better average than Brandon McStiff, signed Calais Campbell, signed Bouye, signed a guard, let half the starting secondary and 40% of the starting o-line walk as free agents to other teams.

Yeah, he didn't do a thing. You know, mere ignorance is one thing, but aggressive ignorance is something else; you need to watch that- or you can apply for a job in the owners' box; they seem to value that quality.

Britt and Retro- +1 on your posts.

My god, that NEVER would have happened if St Tommy had been installed as coach for life.

Making the mistake of not firing Reese with him and hiring McAdoo still doesn't erase the poor performance of the 2012-2015 Giants.

All of the credit when they win, none of the blame when they lose....now apparently is the policy with Jacksonville too! What a charmed life.

Amazing how you had such a different opinion in 2015. Wonder what changed?

In comment 13772932 arcarsenal said:

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The list of impact players on that team that Coughlin is responsible for is mighty short. But you read some of these comments, you'd think he came in, tore the entire thing down and built a winning team all on his own.

Campbell, Fournette, Bouye, Cam Robinson at LT. There were some good pieces in place and it's impossible to know what players Coughlin is primarily responsible. But they had a pretty tremendous offseason. TC deserves credit.

I was more than ready for him to move on. But let's call it what it is and not shrug off his success just because we're annoyed with certain posters.

In comment 13772972 HomerJones45 said:

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Let's see- he hires Marrone immediately

They were hired on the same day
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18438566/jaguars-bring-back-tom-coughlin-vp-hire-doug-marrone-coach-extend-gm-dave-caldwell

They also extended the GM on the same day...

1040 yard at 3.9 YPC. Let's not pretend he was Todd Gurley out there.

Super. Genius.

10-6 with a really weak schedule. Let's see how they do in the playoffs.

I never said he didn't deserve any credit.

It's just tiresome watching the same posters circle jerk over it and act like he had everything to do with this without acknowledging that several good players were already in place there when he came on board.

It's actually a lot like the way people heaped so much praise on Gettleman for the Panthers being 15-1 in 2015 even though he wasn't really responsible for a chunk of the talent base.

Coughlin made good moves down there and absolutely played a role in their turnaround.

The Giants were also a putrid football team for several years when he was here. So, obviously it requires a bit more than his presence to build a successful team. Unless people believe he had no input at all here.

the team had under Coughlin, and the number of times they looked unprepared and had the doors totally blown off.

It was time for TC to go in 2015. That McAdoo was a total disaster doesn't change that fact.

is that he sets a very good example of professionalism.

In comment 13772919 Vanzetti said:

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. . .

Regardless if they win or lose, his impact on the franchise has been a tremendous success. How can it not be viewed as such? He has turned around a perennially losing franchise into the AFC South Champs hosting their first home playoff game since 1999 in the first year. Remember all those tarps and the inability to sell out the stadium? Well, they had to seek permission to remove the tarps from the league office as the advertising had already been paid. They tore them off and sold out those seats within an hour after being deemed a sellout of the entire stadium before in 3 hours. They have since been selling standing room tickets for $240/each. What owner doesn't like sold out stadiums?

There are plenty that want to discount the effect that Tom has had because he isn't patrolling the sideline. But when you see other GMs/Football Czars on T.V. during the game, how many are plotting out plays and taking notes? Tom is busy winning focusing on the task at hand instead of dressed up in a suit in the owner's suite. We saw Jerry's cameo appearance during his tenure at training camp, but has anyone seen a 70 year old day in and day out coaching in tandem with their HC running drills? I saw that on the local news every night in coverage of the team.

I don't want take anything away from Doug. He has done a tremendous job. But to think Tom is just sitting in his corner office with no effect on the team is being disingenuous.

as usual, re-writing history to fit your very narrow narrative.

TC good. all of his coaches good.

everyone else bad.

Rinse, Repeat.

Greg doing good work on this thread.

In comment 13773002 lawguy9801 said:

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the team had under Coughlin, and the number of times they looked unprepared and had the doors totally blown off. It was time for TC to go in 2015. That McAdoo was a total disaster doesn't change that fact.

A lot of that had to do with horrendous talent we had in 2015.. For 8 games that season our second best defensive player was the immortal Demantre Moore.. Let that sink in.. JR gave him no talent to work with..

In comment 13773003 Motley Two said:

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is that he sets a very good example of professionalism.

Mercedes Lewis was interviewed last night in a playoff promo piece on the local network. And he emphasized this exact aspect of what Tom brought to the organization. Mercedes has been through a number of staff changes and seen players come and go. He said that Tom's expectation of professionalism was his immediate direct impact. He also said for those players that approach the job as true professionals, it isn't hard to live up to the expectations. But then added that for some players it has been a difficult transition.

Did Mara hire McAdoo for OC, or did TC?

Look, TC was a great coach, and good with personnel for the most part, but it was time. Anyone who thinks he didn't have a big say in drafts and FA signings, keeping aging vets too long, etc, wasn't paying attention.

If Jacksonville lost 4 out of their 5 top WR in game five, they wouldn't have made the playoffs this year either, even with the easiest schedule in the league.

In comment 13772922 Greg from LI said:

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Of course, it doesn't give one single detail as to what exactly Coughlin has actually done, since almost all of the players and the coach were already there on the day he has hired, but then again no opportunity to exalt St. Tommy can be passed up.

Dude....you are blind or stubborn or both if you can't see that Coughlin is a great football mind. Oh that's right he couldn't win with a terrible team here from 2013-2015. He must be garbage. And some of his good NYG teams blew leads. That never happened under Parcells right?

no one is saying Coughlin was perfect here or in Jacksonville. What I am saying is he's better than any of these fucking clowns we are interviewing and that's a FACT. Coughlin is a better HC than Jim fucking Schwartz. He's better than the Browns cast off.

Fine, the Giants blew a lead to the titans and eagles. They also won a shit load of games and always seemed to battle throughout every season here. And they never turned into a circus even when times were tough. And they rarely came out unprepared in big games.

Oh that's right, Coughlin passed on running the clock out 2-3 times during the 2015 season so now he's an idiot? No, he was right. that defense couldn't stop a fucking school girl from stealing candy.

I give up.

that Reese should have been gone first or Coughlin and Reese both should have been gone needs to stop. They are both gone now as is Ross and McAdoo. Time to turn the page and move forward.

your comment to me sounds like, "so maybe Coughlin made 4 or 5 mistakes over a 10 year span..."

Losses like the 2009 Panthers game. Yes, the Parcells Giants blew some games they should have one, most infamously the 1988 Jets game that cost them the playoffs, but when were they ever just outright humiliated at home by a bad team like that 41-9 asskicking administered by Matt Moore?

In comment 13773204 GiantFilthy said:

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your comment to me sounds like, "so maybe Coughlin made 4 or 5 mistakes over a 10 year span..."

What? I didn't say how many mistakes he made and I did say he wasn't perfect. But he was better than anyone out there. I stand by that.

To be fair, it's possible that Coughlin would have covered up Reese's warts and we'd be in tough spot now anyway. We wouldn't be 3-13 bad but mediocre--which is worse in the long run. I more regret the 2016 season than anything else. That team could have won if it had a better HC and plan. Mcadoo was along for the ride in 2016.

In comment 13773211 Greg from LI said:

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Losses like the 2009 Panthers game. Yes, the Parcells Giants blew some games they should have one, most infamously the 1988 Jets game that cost them the playoffs, but when were they ever just outright humiliated at home by a bad team like that 41-9 asskicking administered by Matt Moore?

Dude two years later they won another super bowl! Take the good with the bad.

Again, he wasn't perfect. Who is....

In comment 13773023 chuckydee9 said:

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In comment 13773002 lawguy9801 said: Quote: the team had under Coughlin, and the number of times they looked unprepared and had the doors totally blown off. It was time for TC to go in 2015. That McAdoo was a total disaster doesn't change that fact. A lot of that had to do with horrendous talent we had in 2015.. For 8 games that season our second best defensive player was the immortal Demantre Moore.. Let that sink in.. JR gave him no talent to work with..

It happened a lot more than just in 2015 - it was a recurring pattern.

how one guy kept the show afloat. The same OC, the same DC, the same GM and the fucking wheels come completely off the clown car. Worst season since 1974. That same guy is made head of football operations of a moribund franchise that proceeds to win its division and make the playoffs for the first time in 10 years.

And Greg, Filthy, LG, lawyerguy and the rest of the Confederacy of Dunces have nothing to complain about. The onwers, card-carrying dunces themselves, did absolutely everything the Confederacy advocated- everything, and the result was a dumpster fire, a clusterfuck of bullshit. After this disaster, virtually nothing the Confederacy thinks should be taken seriously.

Yes or no?

Coughlin was several years past his expiration date. He deserved the extra time because of the two Super Bowl wins but he earned his firing and then some. The fact that Mara screwed it up by keep Reese and most of the coaching staff doesn't change anything.

As far as Jacksonville goes let's see how it plays out. So far he's living off the other guys players kind of like Rex Ryan with the Jets his first few years. My guess is Coughlin leaves Jacksonville the 2nd time just like the 1st time and like with the Giants a mess of mostly his own making.

In comment 13773228 lawguy9801 said:

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In comment 13773023 chuckydee9 said: Quote: In comment 13773002 lawguy9801 said: Quote: the team had under Coughlin, and the number of times they looked unprepared and had the doors totally blown off. It was time for TC to go in 2015. That McAdoo was a total disaster doesn't change that fact. A lot of that had to do with horrendous talent we had in 2015.. For 8 games that season our second best defensive player was the immortal Demantre Moore.. Let that sink in.. JR gave him no talent to work with.. It happened a lot more than just in 2015 - it was a recurring pattern.

Yes there were blowouts throughout his tenure.. but we know he isn't perfect.. neither is anyone else coaching in the NFL... with the exception of BB no other current coach is more accomplished..

Also majority of those blowouts came after 2011.. when JR couldn't replace talent on either side of the Line.. Once Tuck and Osi went out.. our DL has been barren.. thats why we had to spend 200M to have a below average DL 2 seasons in..

BTW some of you guys sound truly butt hurt about fans who support our 2 time SB winning coach.. also who cares if Greg from LI gives TC credit.. the fucking owner of the team who basically hired TC to do owners job is very happy with his hire..

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HomerJones45 : 11:00 am : link : reply The onwers, card-carrying dunces themselves, did absolutely everything the Confederacy advocated- everything, and the result was a dumpster fire, a clusterfuck of bullshit.

How right you are. Our two demands were:

1. Fire Coughlin but keep Reese. None of us wanted Reese gone. He's our bae.

2. Get rid of the entire starting squad of receivers by week 5.

It's at least comforting to know we have an owner who listens.

In comment 13772984 Greg from LI said:

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1040 yard at 3.9 YPC. Let's not pretend he was Todd Gurley out there.

To be fair, that's in only 13 games and he was banged up for a few others. Fournette was definitely a difference maker in the games he played, especially when he was 100% early in the season..

Nothing is holding you here as Giants fans. Follow your hearts to Jacksonville. No one's going to stop you.

Even if you think Coughlin didn't play any role in the Jaguars success, you have to give him credit for passing up all those head coaching opportunities and being wise enough to ride the Jaguars' coattails.

In comment 13773292 BrettNYG10 said:

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Even if you think Coughlin didn't play any role in the Jaguars success, you have to give him credit for passing up all those head coaching opportunities and being wise enough to ride the Jaguars' coattails.

I'm just glad he made the decision fairly quickly so the NFL could get back to work, as each organization was on pause as if it was a strike year just as Homer predicted.

In comment 13773288 Greg from LI said:

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Nothing is holding you here as Giants fans. Follow your hearts to Jacksonville. No one's going to stop you.

Who hurt you?

just great, made up stuff from you... I hope you at least cut and paste these same 3 or 4 cliches you throw out here so you don't have to re-type them each time.

TC deserves props for helping to restore order to a joke of a franchise. No issues with that... BUT it has zero to do with whether we should have kept him on as HC any longer. because we shouldn't. He had lived past his expiration date here.

and all the flowers being thrown at his feet and hand wringing that he isn't with us anymore is a joke.

our team under TC the last handful of years was soft, inconsistent, injury prone and prone to dumb mistakes. I was/am no fan of Ben Mc but we at least got a 1 year bump under him before the bottom fell out.

The reality is that most reasonable people here wanted both TC and Reese gone... IMO, we would be 2 years further along in our "rebuilding process".

Regardless, we are where we are and I am very hopeful and excited about our prospects... too bad, guys like you have to be such a downer pining away for guy like a love sick teenage girl.

enjoy the Jax playoffs... I am going to pay attention to the exciting Giants off season.

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LG in NYC : 12:00 pm : link : reply I was/am no fan of Ben Mc but we at least got a 1 year bump under him

That was just because the halls of Metlife still had that Coughlin smell.

a lot of people presented reasonable arguments as to why Coughlin was getting a raw deal, and had been getting a raw deal via poor roster and injuries.

If if makes you feel better to call us apologists and Jacksonville fans, go ahead, but the logic at the time was sound and the results have played that out.

Or maybe magical hurricane Sandy took all his powers.

The offensive line and defensive line fell apart, and the rest of the team followed like dominoes.

And Eli Manning has not forgotten how to QB all of the sudden, either, but it's going to take him leaving and taking another team to the playoffs (like Coughlin has done) for some of you to see that. And even then, I'm sure you'll spin it some other way and double down on it.

He wasn't an innocent bystander to the talent deteriorating.

I think both Reese and Coughlin should have been canned in 2015 - TC did a poor job in 2015. Bad decisions, not realizing what was going on with Beckham during the Panthers game, etc.

With that said, I give Coughlin more credit with the team's Super Bowl runs - I think he's a truly great coach. But I don't see him being given a raw deal with the Giants. Four post-Super Bowl years with zero playoff appearances.

None of the blame for losing.

You are right in that if Eli goes to a team that has everything else in place and just needs a competent QB, he stands a good chance of succeeding before he retires (though he will need to cut down on his turnovers).

and I will be curious if any teams like that reach out to inquire about trading for Eli.

we are not that team... we are in for some work over the next couple of years...and Eli is not a QB who can elevate his play or the team around him to the point of making us great. so better to take our lumps now, IMO, and start fresh as we build this thing back up.

as for TC... he was so incredible as our HC the last few years with us that exactly ZERO teams hired him as their HC.

Just like ol' Gene's other man-crush...Gilbride... another guy without a job after we let him go.

so I am comfortable with my position on this and no amount of fact changing by you or ol' Geno is gonna change that.

too old to start over, but that doesn't mean he was too old to continue where he was.

Let me ask you this, now that you see how badly McAdoo drove the offense off a cliff.

How do you like the 2016 team's chances with Coughlin's offense from 2015, paired with our 200 million defense from 2016? You think Coughlin could have done okay with that defense?

And don't give me that "Who was the OC crap", we saw how that went off a cliff when McAdoo fully implemented his playbook and called plays, and that was even during the 11-5 season. They were brutal.

Mara fired the wrong guy in 2015, and that's crystal clear, now. Coughlin could have coached another year or two and then gone upstairs.

still thinks Hufnagel, Jonny Lynn, Tim Lewis and especially Perry Fewell got a raw deal here... those guys really lit it up after we fired them

Coughlin is probably more mentally and physically fit than some of the 50 year old head coaches in the league.

but this doesn't really prove anything. He's not the coach or GM in Jacksonville. JAX never offered him the coaching position. Would Coughlin have even wanted this type of role with the Giants after he was removed as coach?

honestly, I think TC would have done no better than BM in 2016. How may times did TC do better than 11-5 in the reg season as our HC?

and as for this past year, no doubt TC as HC wouldn't have gone 3-13 but my guess is we don't win more than 8-9 games with him either.

so, in reality we are in a better position now b/c at least we have a opt 2 pick in the draft...

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Britt in VA : 12:34 pm : link : reply How do you like the 2016 team's chances with Coughlin's offense from 2015, paired with our 200 million defense from 2016? You think Coughlin could have done okay with that defense?

From 11-5 to an earth shattering 12-4 maybe. That or maybe a 6-2 start and finishing 8-8.

In comment 13773517 GiantFilthy said:

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Quote: Britt in VA : 12:34 pm : link : reply How do you like the 2016 team's chances with Coughlin's offense from 2015, paired with our 200 million defense from 2016? You think Coughlin could have done okay with that defense? From 11-5 to an earth shattering 12-4 maybe. That or maybe a 6-2 start and finishing 8-8.

Considering mismanagement cost the Giants several games in his final years I bet they go 8-8

What I do know is we would have been a legitimate threat in the playoffs, instead of a team dead in the water the minute we drew Green Bay because we all knew they couldn't score twenty points.

With coughlin, we could have made a legitimate run at another title last year....

Ultimately, what was the rush to show him the door? Losing a Mcadoo to philly? Man, too bad.

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Britt in VA : 12:54 pm : link : reply Ultimately, what was the rush to show him the door?

7-9, 6-10, 6-10 topped with decisions that brought questions about his mental capacity on the field, awful clock management and a major lack of awareness.

It is what it is.

In comment 13773193 RinR said:

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that Reese should have been gone first or Coughlin and Reese both should have been gone needs to stop. They are both gone now as is Ross and McAdoo. Time to turn the page and move forward.

THANK YOU!

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Yeah, well I still would take that over what we got. Britt in VA : 1:04 pm : link : reply

That is exactly what we got. We would probably have just ended up with a more franchise killing middle of the road draft pick after squeaking out a couple of victories.

"Awful" clock management decisions were predicated on the knowledge that we had a Swiss cheese defense that couldnt hold an end of game lead with a minute left. 6 times in 2015.

In comment 13773507 Britt in VA said:

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Coughlin is probably more mentally and physically fit than some of the 50 year old head coaches in the league.

And yet you had no problem using his age as a reason why he didn't get another HC invite just two posts before this one. Which one is it?

What's funny about some of you on this thread that have been carrying on like this for the past few weeks is that no one is saying that Reese didn't deserve to get canned along with Coughlin (although at the time I did argue that I thought Reese deserved a chance to pick his own coach once before getting fired... and it appears I was wrong about that and he should've been let go with Coughlin... but at least I can admit it when I'm wrong). But you guys want to place the WHOLE mess on Reese... and meanwhile absolve Coughlin and Eli of their respective roles in the last decade... and really think that's a credible stance to take based on Coughlin's team making the playoffs... but totally discounting Reese's team doing the same thing last year.

It's just really pathetic to see some feeling the need to defend Coughlin and Eli against all comers because they won two Super Bowls... and yet not give Reese his due as well. Find all the excuses you want... but the FACT of the matter is that all three played a MAJOR role in the last decade... but the good and the bad. I know informing you of that doesn't give you another dart to throw at the dartboard with Reese's face on it... but it's the truth.

In comment 13773615 Britt in VA said:

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"Awful" clock management decisions were predicated on the knowledge that we had a Swiss cheese defense that couldnt hold an end of game lead with a minute left. 6 times in 2015.

Excuse... after excuse... after excuse....

At what point is Coughlin to blame? Just curious.

In comment 13773645 T-Bone said:

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In comment 13773615 Britt in VA said: Quote: "Awful" clock management decisions were predicated on the knowledge that we had a Swiss cheese defense that couldnt hold an end of game lead with a minute left. 6 times in 2015. Excuse... after excuse... after excuse.... At what point is Coughlin to blame? Just curious.

Never, apparently.

All of the bad shit that happened was because he was being undermined.

He had no say in the faulty personnel or the way it was deployed. He was just an innocent bystander.

Except for when we won those Super Bowls - that was all him.

In comment 13773651 arcarsenal said:

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In comment 13773645 T-Bone said: Quote: In comment 13773615 Britt in VA said: Quote: "Awful" clock management decisions were predicated on the knowledge that we had a Swiss cheese defense that couldnt hold an end of game lead with a minute left. 6 times in 2015. Excuse... after excuse... after excuse.... At what point is Coughlin to blame? Just curious. Never, apparently. All of the bad shit that happened was because he was being undermined. He had no say in the faulty personnel or the way it was deployed. He was just an innocent bystander. Except for when we won those Super Bowls - that was all him.

LOL! Exactly!

Someone on another thread just blamed Reese for not dealing with Eli Apple. Because you know... GMs ALWAYS get involved in team matters during the season.

It's just weird how much hatred folks have for Reese. A man who was instrumental in the two Super Bowl victories in the last decade... just as he was instrumental in the failures over the past decade.

All the credit for winning, none of the blame for losing.

Remember when they were good under Coughlin, how his fan club used to go on and on about how one of the big differences between Coughlin and Fassel was Coughlin's peerless input on personnel? How the drafts were so much better after Fassel because Coughlin was right there with Reese giving his opinions? Funny how the same people pulled a complete 180 on that when the drafts grew barren. Then, it became "Jerry is screwing TC!!!!"

The late season collapses? Weak rosters. Poor clock management? Crickets. Lousy picks for his coordinators? Management was interfering too much with his staff.

The grass was truly greener, wasn't it?

Papa Coughlin

in the 2 years that TC left we were better off (or at worst, same) one of the years and worse off the 2nd... now we get to start fresh and will hopefully be better off going forward.

kind of lame to finish off with that when your inconsistencies have been highlighted repeatedly on this thread alone.

I like you a lot, but I feel like you imply that there is something a little sinister in those that seem to excuse Coughlin and Eli and put the blame on Reese. I can't speak for any other poster on BBI other than myself, but I can give you a very simple, logical progression of why I hold the opinion that I do, and why it ultimately falls at Reese's feet.

I was a HUGE supporter of the entire process between 2007 and 2011-12. Huge. In Reese I trust. Argued against anybody that had a bad word to say about the guy, even excused a lot of stuff that happened in 2012. But by 2013, it was clear that the Offensive line had been neglected, and needed to be rebuilt quickly. It was crucial in our entire philosophy that we had been using successfully for years. Gilbride and Coughlin needed it, and Eli needed it. When we had a good offensive line, we were good. We basically had to scrap our entire playbook that we had been using since 2007 after 2013 because the offensive line was a commplete mess. Gilbride lost his job over it. We tried to retool and rebuild, but couldn't. Meanwhile, the defensive roster was also falling to shit, and our drafts were bad, but I believe even then, with a decent offensive line we could have gotten past it. We never got one, and Coughlin was the next to fall. I don't know if Reese convinced McAdoo or McAdoo convinced Reese that that wasn't a big deal, but the complete ignoring of it this past offseason was just another year of neglect that ended the season before it began.

It's a very simple, logical progress that formed my opinion:

1. Offensive line failed
2. Gilbride and Coughlin could not run their system without it.
3. Gilbride, then Coughlin fired.
4. Eli could not operate behind it and is now getting the blame.

It all goes back to the offensive line for me. That's why I blame Reese. And you can say, well Coughlin had input too. Well, Coughlin got fired. This past offseason, Reese made a decision to let it ride with the hopes it was good enough. And it was another bad decision. Teams rebuild lines in single offseasons. Coughlin has helped Jacksonville's line get humming pretty quickly. Reese's has been bad for 7 years.

Nothing more, nothing less, certainly nothing sinister as has been implied in the past, here.

In comment 13773732 LG in NYC said:

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in the 2 years that TC left we were better off (or at worst, same) one of the years and worse off the 2nd... now we get to start fresh and will hopefully be better off going forward. kind of lame to finish off with that when your inconsistencies have been highlighted repeatedly on this thread alone.

I have not been inconsistent. My opinion has been pretty damn consistent for the past five years, unlike the backtracking and spinning that occurs regularly here in regards to Coughlin, McAdoo, Reese, and Eli.

it wasn't ignored... but the decisions they made to "fix" it didn't work. Now, did Reese make all of those decisions by himself? you seem to think so.

Could it be that the recently sainted TC (at least by some here) had a hand in the decisions that have not worked out?

you've been wildly inconsistent in your arguments on this thread alone.

you are certainly single-minded - I'll give you that... but the logic you and others use to support that single mindedness is flawed at best.

In comment 13773751 LG in NYC said:

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it wasn't ignored... but the decisions they made to "fix" it didn't work. Now, did Reese make all of those decisions by himself? you seem to think so. Could it be that the recently sainted TC (at least by some here) had a hand in the decisions that have not worked out?

The line began falling apart in 2009. It wasn't ignored, but they waited too long to address it, and when they did, they failed in free agency and the draft.

in saying that McAdoo was great and Coughlin sucked had flawed logic, but we all think each others logic is flawed if we don't agree, don't we?

only Reese is responsible for the failings...

so let's be clear, TC didn't have any input on personnel decisions? is that your position now?

And I outlined that very clearly.

But I'm not going to sit here and go in circles with the mob. I felt firing Coughlin was the wrong move at the time, and I believe the results have played that out.

That's it. You disagree, fine.

Is being very naive. I am with the group that says it was time for both TC and Reese to go.

In comment 13773774 figgy2989 said:

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Is being very naive. I am with the group that says it was time for both TC and Reese to go.

I didn't say that. I said that you can say that he did, but then he got fired. Then I went on to point at this last offseason where the line was completely ignored and deemed good enough as constructed as a solo Reese effort.

In comment 13773769 Britt in VA said:

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And I outlined that very clearly. But I'm not going to sit here and go in circles with the mob. I felt firing Coughlin was the wrong move at the time, and I believe the results have played that out. That's it. You disagree, fine.

Britt, so when you wax poetic on here about ignoring the OL, isn't that on both Reese AND Coughlin?

.

I agree about last off season and that being solely on Reese, but for years the drafts and Free Agency were absolutely putrid and play a big part in where the organization is right now.

You point to last off season and how that is all on Reese. I am pretty sure there is no one on this board that would argue that statement. But what about the previous seasons while TC was here. You agreed that he played a part in personnel decisions, but then in the same statement say it was Reese who is at fault for not addressing or prioritizing certain positions.

Sometimes I think you just argue for the sake of arguing.

I don't believe I've said anything more or less than anyone else has said (and I certainly post less often than most these days) with regards to this issue. If you believe I'm trying to imply anything more or less than anyone else I think that's something you've concocted in your own mind. But please feel free to remind me of anything that I've said with regards to this issue that would make you think that so that I can see for myself.

As LG pointed out two posts after yours that was addressed to me, the O-line hadn't been 'neglected' until this past off-season (which was why I had no issue with Reese being let go now... for him to have no backup plan was inexcusable)... it was simply that the moves that were made didn't work out... and for that, he's been fired. But also has been said, it's not like Reese drafted and signed those players to the team and told Coughlin 'Here ya go... make it work!', which is what you and others seem to imply. In your post you make it sound like you're upset that Coughlin and Gilbride were let go but Reese wasn't... which is how these things usually happen. But I find it hard to believe that HAD Reese been let go along with Coughlin that any of you would hold him in any higher regard than you do now.

Fact: anyone who tries to blame all the failures (or successes for that matter) of the past decade on one single person sounds stupid.

In comment 13773810 figgy2989 said:

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You point to last off season and how that is all on Reese. I am pretty sure there is no one on this board that would argue that statement. But what about the previous seasons while TC was here. You agreed that he played a part in personnel decisions, but then in the same statement say it was Reese who is at fault for not addressing or prioritizing certain positions. Sometimes I think you just argue for the sake of arguing.

He's right about this. You keep on making excuse after excuse for Coughlin (and they're getting sillier and sillier by the way) .

and I like you too.

You're constant whining about how poor wittle Eli and Coughlin have suffered so much at the hands of that evil Jerry Reese not withstanding...

If Gettleman doesn't fix the o-line in the next 2-3 years, I'm going to put the blame squarely on Gettleman. Not whomever the new coach is, but Gettleman.

In comment 13773845 Britt in VA said:

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If Gettleman doesn't fix the o-line in the next 2-3 years, I'm going to put the blame squarely on Gettleman. Not whomever the new coach is, but Gettleman.

And that still doesn't make you right.

.

in recent years - Pugh, Richburg, and Flowers. If I'm not mistaken, Coughlin was a big Flowers fan at the time he was drafted.

but I blame him in large part for the OLd collapse.

The OL rebuild was delayed by several years by his stubborn attachment to the old guard. Hell, re-inserting O'Hara in the starting lineup in 2010 was part of the kiss of death down the stretch.

To their credit, Diehl, Snee and McKenzie performed as valiantly as they could for as long as they could but to have guys retiring during training camp means their rope was too long.

In comment 13773864 Greg from LI said:

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in recent years - Pugh, Richburg, and Flowers. If I'm not mistaken, Coughlin was a big Flowers fan at the time he was drafted.

Reese... he must've hypnotized him.

when it became obvious that he was physically a shell of his All-Pro self.

there is a handful of BBIers who would have fit in well on that coaching staff - they never know when it is time to move on from a player or coach!

to replace them with.

.

he is finished as a coach - there were so many sloppy, mental mistakes by the 2015 team, that after three prior seasons of missing the playoffs, could no longer be ignored. the mistakes that season were not due to lack of talent but primarily lack of attention to details, rules and other things that fall on a head coach. and he did not receive a coaching job offer after that season - which given his age and recent performances of his teams, made sense.

but he is a good man, coached us to two incredible super bowl runs and I'm glad he is enjoying success in the upper office of an afc team.

In comment 13773993 Britt in VA said:

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.

And yet that doesn't ever stop you and others from placing all the blame squarely on Reese.

In comment 13774036 T-Bone said:

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In comment 13773993 Britt in VA said: Quote: . And yet that doesn't ever stop you and others from placing all the blame squarely on Reese.

Or vice versa.

In this “you against everyone” crusade you have on BBI, I am unsure if you are just being short sighted, but I am not seeing this everyone blamed Coughlin sentiment. I see everyone saw both as equally to blame with how the roster was constructed and team performance. Which again is why both should have been let go at the same time instead of TC being the scapegoat.

"both should go" camp.

I was in the "if one should go, both should go" camp, but I also remember thinking that I didn't want anybody to get fired, just stay the course.

(Especially after the TC firing)

You were thinking both should have been retained? Boy you are tough person to reason with. Have a good night.

with all due respect, your big sin is not your opinion (which you are entitled to, of course) but rather your incessant cheerleading for Eli week after week as this embarrassing season unfolded.

you didn't just argue with people who criticized Eli...you initiated threads that directly or indirectly praised/absolved Eli while the building was burning.

and you've shown the same unyeilding traits as respects TC... taking any oppty to try and puff your chest about him as if whatever success Jax is having somehow makes you smart and everyone else an idiot.

I am quite sure you wouldn't feel like such a punching bag if you would dial it back a few notches. But instead you have absolutely positioned yourself as "Eli above all other"... seemingly even if it means the team suffers as a result.

Just my 2 cents.

In comment 13774092 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 13774036 T-Bone said: Quote: In comment 13773993 Britt in VA said: Quote: . And yet that doesn't ever stop you and others from placing all the blame squarely on Reese. Or vice versa.

If you could name one or two names or evidence of anyone saying it was ALL Coughlin’s fault I’d appreciate it. Thanks!

I think Eli and Coughlin are two of the greatest Giants of all time. It was a rare era that we were lucky to witness, and if I'm being honest, it will likely be a decade or two before we witness it again (like last time). I'm going to defend them, because I think when the dust settles, in fifty years, they will be the two guys we're talking about. Like Parcells, LT, and Simms, who we hold in such high regard.

In comment 13774146 T-Bone said:

Quote:

In comment 13774092 Britt in VA said: Quote: In comment 13774036 T-Bone said: Quote: In comment 13773993 Britt in VA said: Quote: . And yet that doesn't ever stop you and others from placing all the blame squarely on Reese. Or vice versa. If you could name one or two names or evidence of anyone saying it was ALL Coughlin’s fault I’d appreciate it. Thanks!

I don't have the time or energy to go back two or three years and dig up archived threads, but if you're going to sit there and tell me that there weren't posters that wanted to heap it all on Coughlin, well, we'll just agree to disagree. Thanks.

then great, guess what? I'm a homer! I'm the biggest damn Giants homer there is, and I will always root for the greatest Giants, as well as the team.

In comment 13774245 Britt in VA said:

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I think Eli and Coughlin are two of the greatest Giants of all time. It was a rare era that we were lucky to witness, and if I'm being honest, it will likely be a decade or two before we witness it again (like last time). I'm going to defend them, because I think when the dust settles, in fifty years, they will be the two guys we're talking about. Like Parcells, LT, and Simms, who we hold in such high regard.

But you won’t give Reese any credit for his part in that era?

That seems fair. Basically you’ve chosen to view only certain members of the organization for the successes and certain ones for the failures instead of giving credit to everyone involved. I don’t know what that makes you... but ‘homer’ isn’t a word that comes to mind.

In comment 13774250 Britt in VA said:

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then great, guess what? I'm a homer! I'm the biggest damn Giants homer there is, and I will always root for the greatest Giants, as well as the team.

This is exactly the problem. I swear, every one of your posts come across like you think you are involved in some kind of contest to prove who the biggest Giants fan is. Being the biggest Giants homer on the planet is a nice title to give yourself, but if it means putting blinders on and ignoring every single flaw that a player or coach may have isn’t something to be proud of. It doesn’t make you a better fan. It makes you an ignorant fan.

Eli and TC are Giants legends forever. It’s ok to admit that they are/were far from perfect and had their warts. Unless of course you’re looking for a prize for your ignorance/allegiance.

In comment 13774266 T-Bone said:

Quote:

In comment 13774245 Britt in VA said: Quote: I think Eli and Coughlin are two of the greatest Giants of all time. It was a rare era that we were lucky to witness, and if I'm being honest, it will likely be a decade or two before we witness it again (like last time). I'm going to defend them, because I think when the dust settles, in fifty years, they will be the two guys we're talking about. Like Parcells, LT, and Simms, who we hold in such high regard. But you won’t give Reese any credit for his part in that era? That seems fair. Basically you’ve chosen to view only certain members of the organization for the successes and certain ones for the failures instead of giving credit to everyone involved. I don’t know what that makes you... but ‘homer’ isn’t a word that comes to mind.

On that note, bowing out of the conversation.

In comment 13774273 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 13774266 T-Bone said: Quote: In comment 13774245 Britt in VA said: Quote: I think Eli and Coughlin are two of the greatest Giants of all time. It was a rare era that we were lucky to witness, and if I'm being honest, it will likely be a decade or two before we witness it again (like last time). I'm going to defend them, because I think when the dust settles, in fifty years, they will be the two guys we're talking about. Like Parcells, LT, and Simms, who we hold in such high regard. But you won’t give Reese any credit for his part in that era? That seems fair. Basically you’ve chosen to view only certain members of the organization for the successes and certain ones for the failures instead of giving credit to everyone involved. I don’t know what that makes you... but ‘homer’ isn’t a word that comes to mind. On that note, bowing out of the conversation.

Just to be clear about what I said above Britt... I honestly don’t think ‘homer’ is applicable to you in this case. When I think of a ‘homer’ I think of someone who blindly agrees with every move their favorite team makes and you don’t do that. You (unfairly IMO) blindly blame any and all success to Coughlin and Eli and everything that’s gone wrong has been Reese’s fault. I honestly don’t even know how you can reach that conclusion... and yes, I’d argue against anyone who believes that the team’s struggles were because of only Coughlin or Eli. I’d hope those three individuals would agree with my stance.

Anyway, I like ya enough to feel the need to clarify myself for you because I don’t want you to have the impression that I had a ‘word’ in mind. I didn’t and still don’t. We can disagree with this but it’s not that serious...

Just because I don't view Reese as an "all time great" doesn't mean I don't acknowledge his part in the era. I don't view George Young as an all time great either..

Head coach and QB are premier positions. GM is a behind the scenes thing. If you notice, I'm the one that started the Jerry Reese appreciation thread after he was fired. I acknowledge and appreciate everything he did for the Giants, not only as a GM, but everything before. But at the end of the day, he was the GM, and I hold him accountable for the personnel. Everybody else has been held accountable and now everybody (except Eli, although not for long) is gone.

We can all agree that we're Giants fans and we want the best for the Giants for the next 20-30 years as well.

in a few months...

Sorry. I just had to do that.

In comment 13772907 Britt in VA said:

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They will just continue their crusade of scapegoating and assigning blame to the wrong people, and then aggressively and stupidly defend their stance, often doubling down by making up stupid narratives and twisting bizarre statistics to try and prove their original stance after it's clear as day that they were wrong, wrong wrong....

I want to punch you sometimes. Ownership got it wrong with for sure. It should have been Reese, but people thinking TC should be gone were not crazy either. His recent record was not good in what have you done for me lately league. He made some bad 4th quarter decisions. I loved TC, still do, but people were not stupid, there were legitimate reasons to question TC. Even though I was against his firing the argument against him wasn't stupid or based in crazy stats. It was W/Ls.

it's blatantly obvious this team was making terrible personnel decisions the last few years. I don't care if Coughlin made every single one while he was here, it's ultimately the responsibility of the GM. If the GM is dumb enough to let the coach do his job...he should still get shitcanned if the product on the field is trash. Reese should have gone awhile ago. But hey...at least we have Eli Apple....

Back and forth, the house should've been cleaned when TC got canned! The ensuing 11-5 season was fools gold! The offense still sucked and the defense had a $250 million B-12 shot!
Hopefully we're back on track, let's get a new coaching staff and right this ship!

stinks up the joint today, and Coughlin wants to trade
for Eli, before his 5 mill. bonus is due in March.
That would be best for everybody concerned, start anew
with a new GM & HC, and QB. That might be too much to ask
for the Giants and Mara...Most of the team was already there when Coughlin took over, they brought in Bouje and
Calais Campbell as free agents on defense, the team had
good defensive pieces in place, and they drafted a RB.