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NFT: Moustakas in play for Mets

CMicks3110 : 1/4/2018 10:24 pm
Quote:
Fans have every right to be cynical about this, and I have no doubt they will be, but sources with knowledge of the Mets' plans are telling me the front office will do more to improve the team this winter than is being portrayed publicly.

Nevertheless, one name I heard mentioned on Thursday was Mike Moustakas, the third baseman who hit 38 home runs for the Royals last season, and so far seems to have generated limited interest at best.

Nobody was saying the Mets are ready to swoop in and sign him, but it seems fair to say the team is monitoring his situation, well aware there aren't many potential landing spots for third baseman looking for long-term deals.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/mike-moustakas-play-mets-article-1.3738534 - ( New Window )
don't believe it until it happens  
Eric on Li : 1/4/2018 10:32 pm : link
and even if it does happen, it's going to be for a lot less money than anyone expects. There are some things to like about him (like the 38 homers and low strikeout numbers) but other things that aren't so hot - mainly his defense went way backwards with all the metrics and he's always been a low OBP guy. He's clearly a better player than what they have, but he's got a little bit of a Jason Bay feel.
I just read one  
pjcas18 : 1/4/2018 10:36 pm : link
"expert" suggest the Mets should trade Cespedes to free up money.

How is that productive? Cespedes, when healthy, is the Mets best or 2nd best hitter, and is not going to be replaced any free agent.
More Mets rumors that won't happen  
pjcas18 : 1/4/2018 10:54 pm : link
Quote:
Ken Rosenthal‏Verified account @Ken_Rosenthal

#Mets, #Pirates have discussed McCutchen, just as they did last off-season, sources tell The Athletic. No deal close; NYM weighing variety of moves, and FAs appear more realistic than trades given lack of depth in system. McCutchen set to earn $14.75M in final year of deal.
Should we  
Mark C : 1/4/2018 11:01 pm : link
organize a bake sale?
Is this the annual  
moespree : 1/4/2018 11:16 pm : link
Float some names to placate the fanbase with no intention of actually getting any of them? Probably.
McCutchen would be interesting depending on the price tag  
Eric on Li : 1/4/2018 11:23 pm : link
but if he's not just a rental, why not just sign Cain (who is a better defender) and save the prospects?
Cutch  
brunswick : 1/4/2018 11:26 pm : link
Has 1 year left...that's the reason
Lol, the Mets are always monitoring the situation with FAs.  
PhiPsi125 : 1/5/2018 12:06 am : link
so tired of this team.
.  
DanMetroMan : 1/5/2018 7:43 am : link
2 MLB seasons of being an average or better MLB regular. 2.9 fWAR the last 2 seasons combined. 3.7 in 2015...1.7 the previous 2 combined. Terrible target unless the market totally bottoms out for him. Potential "disaster" given the Mets willingness to move on from mistakes.
RE: Should we  
dreadedrummer : 1/5/2018 7:44 am : link
In comment 13772754 Mark C said:
Quote:
organize a bake sale?

Someone should set up a go fund me for the Mets, if nothing else maybe the story would get picked up by the media and embarrass them...
Moustakas is in play for the Mets  
Vanzetti : 1/5/2018 7:59 am : link
Like a double date with the Hadid sisters is in play for me
Just  
DanMetroMan : 1/5/2018 9:42 am : link
spoke to someone in the know. Highly unlikely they sign Moustakas. Would need the market to bottom out.
RE: .  
Eric on Li : 1/5/2018 9:43 am : link
In comment 13772877 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
2 MLB seasons of being an average or better MLB regular. 2.9 fWAR the last 2 seasons combined. 3.7 in 2015...1.7 the previous 2 combined. Terrible target unless the market totally bottoms out for him. Potential "disaster" given the Mets willingness to move on from mistakes.


I agree. Last year his slugging % spiked, maybe it was improvement maybe it was an outlier, but there's little else positive beyond that and his defensive dropoff was apparently significant. Hard pass unless it's a very low risk deal.
Interesting article here  
Metnut : 1/5/2018 9:48 am : link
The author says that Moose has shown real improvement in his late 20s, and it doesn't look like smoke and mirrors.

"Moustakass average fly ball traveled 326 feet last season, up from 308 feet in the first half of 2015 and 317 feet in the second half of 2015, when the ball is suspected to have changed. He hit 16 fly balls that averaged 332 feet of distance in his injury-shortened 2016."

However, the article also says that since he's an extreme fly ball and pull hitter, his batted balls don't really profile too well at Citi Field.
Mike Moustakas Is the Former Royal You Want - ( New Window )
RE: Just  
arcarsenal : 1/5/2018 9:48 am : link
In comment 13773079 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
spoke to someone in the know. Highly unlikely they sign Moustakas. Would need the market to bottom out.


LOL, of course.

I'm not even crazy about Moustakas - I just laugh knowing that this is how the Mets operate. They need the market to "bottom out" on a player in order to sign him.

Pathetic.
RE: RE: Just  
Metnut : 1/5/2018 9:55 am : link
In comment 13773090 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13773079 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


spoke to someone in the know. Highly unlikely they sign Moustakas. Would need the market to bottom out.



LOL, of course.

I'm not even crazy about Moustakas - I just laugh knowing that this is how the Mets operate. They need the market to "bottom out" on a player in order to sign him.

Pathetic.


LOL exactly! Dan's quote isn't exclusive to Moose, it applies to every free agent. "Mets aren't interested unless the market bottoms out"
This is what drives me crazy about the Mets...  
Chris684 : 1/5/2018 9:57 am : link
If you aren't going to improve the club and win while you have Thor and DeGrom then why not trade them?

And just so everyone knows, I want NO part of trading either one of them, I love both of them, but what's the point of keeping them and not improving the roster?

If they moved Jake this past deadline they could have cleaned out the Astros farm system and totally replenished.

It was the same with the Wright contract that was a total disaster from the day he signed it. Wright's value to a ballclub was never going to line up with the longer term plan of the years it took to groom these pitchers.

WTF is this franchise doing? Does anyone know anymore? Not spend enough to be a contender but spend enough so the blind Met fan will still buy his 10 pack season ticket plan?
Don't forget they still  
pjcas18 : 1/5/2018 10:56 am : link
have that roughly $10M to spend.

Maybe they can get some reclamation projects coming off major injury and a guy trying to resurrect his career coming back from Japan or Mexico.
LOL  
pjcas18 : 1/5/2018 12:14 pm : link
Quote:
Jeffrey Paternostro‏ @jeffpaternostro

The Mets are gonna surprise you with just how much they spend on a fourth outfielder and second LOOGy.


Quote:

Jeffrey Paternostro
‏ @jeffpaternostro
14h14 hours ago

(To be fair they do desperately need another outfielder as I think Champ Stuart is legit fourth on the depth chart if Conforto isnt ready for Opening Day)


Quote:

Jeffrey Paternostro
‏ @jeffpaternostro
14h14 hours ago

(And given that the other outfielders are Lagares, Nimmo, and Cespedes, the odds that all three are healthy on Opening Day also isnt great)
Bottom Out  
TyreeHelmet : 1/5/2018 12:24 pm : link
It's embarrassing and laughable. It's also the only reason Cespedes was signed- the only major contract they have signed since Wright.

Great point about Thor/ Degrom. You have two aces in their prime. If you're not going to try to compete now, when will you?
RE: This is what drives me crazy about the Mets...  
spike : 1/5/2018 1:04 pm : link
In comment 13773111 Chris684 said:
Quote:
If you aren't going to improve the club and win while you have Thor and DeGrom then why not trade them?

And just so everyone knows, I want NO part of trading either one of them, I love both of them, but what's the point of keeping them and not improving the roster?

If they moved Jake this past deadline they could have cleaned out the Astros farm system and totally replenished.

It was the same with the Wright contract that was a total disaster from the day he signed it. Wright's value to a ballclub was never going to line up with the longer term plan of the years it took to groom these pitchers.



WTF is this franchise doing? Does anyone know anymore? Not spend enough to be a contender but spend enough so the blind Met fan will still buy his 10 pack season ticket plan?


That IS the plan. Keep Mets fans spending
.  
arcarsenal : 1/5/2018 9:00 pm : link
Guys! We signed someone!







Jenrry Mejia!

(I'm serious - we signed him to a 1.7M deal to avoid arbitration)

LOL
.  
arcarsenal : 1/5/2018 9:01 pm : link
(And no, he's not ever going to actually pitch for us again)
RE: This is what drives me crazy about the Mets...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/6/2018 12:33 am : link
In comment 13773111 Chris684 said:
Quote:

WTF is this franchise doing? Does anyone know anymore? Not spend enough to be a contender but spend enough so the blind Met fan will still buy his 10 pack season ticket plan?


That's exactly what they're doing.


For the record Moustakas  
ZGiants98 : 1/6/2018 2:37 am : link
was coming off a knee injury and was much worse defensively over the first half (rust?) than over the second half. I highly doubt a 29 year old (assuming a healthy knee) is going to be a poor defensive player over the next few years going forward. His DRS was positive over the second half of 2017 after it was atrocious to start off.
I also think it's hilarious  
ZGiants98 : 1/6/2018 2:56 am : link
that Sandy waited out the market the exact same way last year and signed his two biggest free agents (Cespedes and Blevins) extremely late in the offseason. It's like it's a complete shock that this is how this guy operates? Why? I believe this article and that most of the money issues are smoke to leverage negotiations and Sandy will still sign a couple guys late in the offseason once he gets them at "his" price. Still plenty of good players in play.
They resigned Cespedes in November last year  
Eric on Li : 1/6/2018 9:52 am : link
and outside of twice resigning Cespedes I don't think Sandy's previous offseasons have ever been models of success.
Never  
DanMetroMan : 1/6/2018 10:13 am : link
knew this but even if the Wilpons sold a majority stake, Fred/Jeff would remain in charge which means even selling off 75% wouldn't help the Mets.
Wanted him:(  
DanMetroMan : 1/6/2018 10:14 am : link
Heyman: sources: japanese pitcher kazuhisa makita has an agreement with the padres. 2 years, close to $4M. gives them another nice bullpen arm. submariner. @JeffPassan mentioned likelihood 1st.
RE: I also think it's hilarious  
arcarsenal : 1/6/2018 10:15 am : link
In comment 13774600 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
that Sandy waited out the market the exact same way last year and signed his two biggest free agents (Cespedes and Blevins) extremely late in the offseason. It's like it's a complete shock that this is how this guy operates? Why? I believe this article and that most of the money issues are smoke to leverage negotiations and Sandy will still sign a couple guys late in the offseason once he gets them at "his" price. Still plenty of good players in play.


He signed Cespedes because the market fell apart for him. Thats literally the only reason.

If that's our strategy, we're fucked. Because that's not how winning teams operate.
RE: .  
pjcas18 : 1/6/2018 10:20 am : link
In comment 13774410 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
(And no, he's not ever going to actually pitch for us again)


He's also not going to collect any of that money. Player on drug suspensions don't get paid.

I wonder if the Mets though will count this money in their payroll numbers.
RE: RE: I also think it's hilarious  
spike : 1/6/2018 2:44 pm : link
In comment 13774729 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13774600 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


that Sandy waited out the market the exact same way last year and signed his two biggest free agents (Cespedes and Blevins) extremely late in the offseason. It's like it's a complete shock that this is how this guy operates? Why? I believe this article and that most of the money issues are smoke to leverage negotiations and Sandy will still sign a couple guys late in the offseason once he gets them at "his" price. Still plenty of good players in play.



He signed Cespedes because the market fell apart for him. Thats literally the only reason.

If that's our strategy, we're fucked. Because that's not how winning teams operate.


last championship 1986. We will keep counting that championship anniversary for decades
RE: They resigned Cespedes in November last year  
ZGiants98 : 1/7/2018 12:39 pm : link
In comment 13774713 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
and outside of twice resigning Cespedes I don't think Sandy's previous offseasons have ever been models of success.


His last two offseasons weren't models of success? Going to the WS, postseason, and into a year that every person on earth predicted 90-ish wins screamed failure to you? interesting.
.  
arcarsenal : 1/7/2018 12:45 pm : link
Fan projections shouldn't be proof of a good offseason.

The reality is that the 2017 Mets sucked and were out of contention by the 4th of July.

No matter what people thought going into the season, the team wound up being awful. Sandy gets a pass on that just because it was less expected?

We've done nothing but go backwards since the WS so far and it looks like we're still moving in the wrong direction.
Well if that's the case  
ZGiants98 : 1/7/2018 12:49 pm : link
his previous two offseasons should be measured as successes if the postseason is the baramoter. I don't expect everyone to feel the same way but Sandy absolutely gets a pass from me. His whole team was on the DL and we were 2 games under .500 at the deadline. Last year was just one of those "everything that could go wrong did" type years.
RE: RE: I also think it's hilarious  
ZGiants98 : 1/7/2018 12:51 pm : link
In comment 13774729 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13774600 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


that Sandy waited out the market the exact same way last year and signed his two biggest free agents (Cespedes and Blevins) extremely late in the offseason. It's like it's a complete shock that this is how this guy operates? Why? I believe this article and that most of the money issues are smoke to leverage negotiations and Sandy will still sign a couple guys late in the offseason once he gets them at "his" price. Still plenty of good players in play.



He signed Cespedes because the market fell apart for him. Thats literally the only reason.

If that's our strategy, we're fucked. Because that's not how winning teams operate.


I believe it is his strategy. Not to overpay plain and simple. Ill wait until the offseason is over before I comment on whether it worked out this year or not.
.  
arcarsenal : 1/7/2018 12:53 pm : link
The whole team was on the DL because he brought back most of the same injury-prone players. It shouldn't have surprised anyone.

This team is nowhere near a contender right now. Not even close.

Unless he gets really creative, it's going to be another long season for us.
RE: .  
ZGiants98 : 1/7/2018 12:55 pm : link
In comment 13776257 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
The whole team was on the DL because he brought back most of the same injury-prone players. It shouldn't have surprised anyone.

This team is nowhere near a contender right now. Not even close.

Unless he gets really creative, it's going to be another long season for us.


Disagree. The two biggest losses that sank our season were Syndergaard and Familia in early April and neither had any previous injury history. At least nothing, major. Cespedes was pretty much useless all year too and we would have never signed him to a 100 million plus deal if we thought he would have been injured all year.

I do agree the roster is worse now though after losing Grandy, Bruce, Walker, Reed, Duda, ect. He absolutely needs to add more talent.
.  
arcarsenal : 1/7/2018 1:02 pm : link
Well, he's got a lot of work to do - because as it stands right now, this is probably a 75-80 win team.

And I don't have a whole lot of faith in this turning into a contender when we have about 10M total to fix it.
I dont know what this team is... Could be 70. Could be 90  
ZGiants98 : 1/7/2018 1:08 pm : link
This team as currently constructed is depending on Nimmo, Rosario, and Smith to turn into solid everyday players immediately. Could that happen? Sure. Nimmo held his own last year and Smith and Rosario were huge prospects. Is it likely? All in the same year? I doubt it which is why I would hedge my bets better. Push Nimmo back to the 4th OF role and add a solid bat in the infield to take some pressure off the kids.

As for the rest of the team we need key players to return to health and stay healthy. I'm not talking about lost causes like Wheeler and Harvey.

Im talking about Cespedes, Conforto, Syndergaard, and Familia. The cornerstones of the roster.
RE: RE: They resigned Cespedes in November last year  
Eric on Li : 1/7/2018 4:21 pm : link
In comment 13776240 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 13774713 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


and outside of twice resigning Cespedes I don't think Sandy's previous offseasons have ever been models of success.



His last two offseasons weren't models of success? Going to the WS, postseason, and into a year that every person on earth predicted 90-ish wins screamed failure to you? interesting.


The WS year they were under .500 at the deadline despite having the best pitching in baseball because they didn't do what they needed to in the offseason. Forget Cespedes, Uribe, KJ and Clippard were enormously important acquisitions for roles that were mindlessly ignored in the offseason after lighting money on fire to signing Cuddyer and "the best pinch hitter in baseball" John Mayberry.

The WC year they were around .500 at the deadline, and actually under .500 in early August. Then they went on a run in large part thanks to Lugo and Gsellman.

Last year he stood pat with almost the exact same roster as the Wild Card year to obviously terrible results.

So resigning Cespedes aside, since that was just a function of market prices, which one of those offseasons was Sandy's best in your mind? The WS year he signed Cuddyer for $25M and gave up a first round pick day 1? The year he let Murphy go for almost nothing? Or last year when he mindlessly blew his entire budget signing Walker for $17M?
I'd offer the Marlins  
pjcas18 : 1/7/2018 4:30 pm : link
Rosario+ (plus may be a lot) for Yelich, Realmuto and Prado. Maybe even have to take on Chen and or Castro.



On 2nd thought ignore my last post, I don't want to argue with you  
Eric on Li : 1/7/2018 4:31 pm : link
the reality of this franchise the last several years is painfully obvious to everyone other than you. Cespedes aside, Sandy has acquired flawed players few others want because that's all he can afford within his budget. We all know we were only lucky to resign Cespedes back because he had a cold market. He got good results with a few (Granderson, Cabrera, Colon) and bad luck with a few (Bastardo, Cuddyer, Walker) - but by no means has ever built a solid roster around a very talented group of pitchers who deserved better. Bargain bin stop-gaps year after year leading to mediocre results and mediocre records. 2 outlier months in 2015 thanks to deadline rental acquisitions at the deadline don't change that.
RE: I'd offer the Marlins  
Eric on Li : 1/7/2018 4:34 pm : link
In comment 13776745 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
Rosario+ (plus may be a lot) for Yelich, Realmuto and Prado. Maybe even have to take on Chen and or Castro.




I'd offer them anything they want other than Rosario for Yelich and Prado. Dom Smith, Gimenez, and whoever they want as the 3rd prospect (and 4th prospect if nec). That package would be reasonably comparable talent level-wise to what STL put together for Ozuna. Obviously Yelich has a better contract than Ozuna but having to take on Prado's $30M diminishes that.
RE: RE: I'd offer the Marlins  
pjcas18 : 1/7/2018 4:38 pm : link
In comment 13776759 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 13776745 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


Rosario+ (plus may be a lot) for Yelich, Realmuto and Prado. Maybe even have to take on Chen and or Castro.






I'd offer them anything they want other than Rosario for Yelich and Prado. Dom Smith, Gimenez, and whoever they want as the 3rd prospect (and 4th prospect if nec). That package would be reasonably comparable talent level-wise to what STL put together for Ozuna. Obviously Yelich has a better contract than Ozuna but having to take on Prado's $30M diminishes that.


If you can get it done without Rosario obviously preferable, but I doubt it. That's why I added in Realmuto though.

He's still young-ish and a top 5 catcher the past two years.

I'd prefer Castro over Prado.
Castro and Prado are similar, but I assume they view Castro's value >  
Eric on Li : 1/7/2018 5:00 pm : link
which is why I'd prefer to take the bigger negative value to save on the prospect side if that makes sense.

Truthfully though, the most sensible thing for the Mets to do would be sign Cain and just trade Lagares for a 2B like Kipinis. Yes it's a risk because he's older, but Cain and Yelich are extremely similar players. Cain's contract would hopefully be somewhere in the range of what they gave Granderson 4 years ago and they'd get to save all their prospects to not further decimate the system.

----------------Cain ---- Yelich
Career BA-----.290------.290
2017 BA ------.300------.282
Career OBP---.342------.369
2017 OBP-----.363------.369
Career K%-----18%------20%
Career BB%----7%-------11%
Career SLG%--.421-----.432%
2017 SLG%----.440%---.439%

Last year Cain had 26 steals to Yelich's 16 and played better defense. Over their career's Cain's defense has been much better, but since he's older it's probably going to be similar going forward. Again, all things equal I'd prefer Yelich by a solid margin but considering 1 of them is a FA that costs nothing but money...it should be a no brainer for a NY team.
If you want to look at things in a vacuum and say that Sandy gets  
PhiPsi125 : 1/7/2018 7:06 pm : link
a pass because they got to the post season in two straight years, then thats fine.

They made the WS in 2015. I cant take that away. Reality is that it was still a deeply flawed team that got hot at the right time, took advantage of an imploding better team (Nationals) only to then turn back into a pumpkin in the WS. This was the time to build off the WS roster but this never actually happened.

2016 was a step backwards. Another mediocre season only to AGAIN turn it on at the very end of the season, end up 8 games out of first place, but secure a wild card to earn the opportunity to GET INTO the playoffs. Which didnt actually happen.

They won 90 and 87 games, respectively. Hardly a powerhouse. Reality is that they have been a thoroughly mediocre (if not bad) team that were lucky to even sniff the success they had those two years. But Sandys true team eventually showed up.

2017 was an abortion of a season. From top to bottom. Lack of oversight with their star players training methods (which clearly led to their eventual injuries), short sighted view with their starting staff, same reliance on HRs while not improving their glaring flaws, crappy defense, horrible leadership.

Nobody WANTS to overpay players but I hate to tell you...its a part of the game and how successful teams are built. But Sandys plan is clearly working. We are in great shape.
Mets seem dysfunctional  
xman : 1/7/2018 8:09 pm : link
top to bottom but it can turn around for the better fast. Look at the Yanks
RE: Mets seem dysfunctional  
arcarsenal : 1/7/2018 8:18 pm : link
In comment 13777271 xman said:
Quote:
top to bottom but it can turn around for the better fast. Look at the Yanks


Yeah, except for the fact that the Yankees are willing to spend money.
95% of the roster problems are easily fixed w a top 10 payroll ($180M)  
Eric on Li : 1/7/2018 8:58 pm : link
Sign Reed.
Sign Cain.
Trade for Kipinis or Gordon at 2nd.

And those are just the simplest, easiest, least creative additions ~8 WAR possible for about $40M.

And to be clear, I don't blame Sandy for not having the extra $40M. That's 100% ownership, not him. I just think it's comical to act like Sandy has perfected some brilliant marketplace strategy within that constraint. He paid Neil Walker coming off back surgery more money last year than his entire budget for this year.
I never said  
ZGiants98 : 1/8/2018 12:32 am : link
I wouldn't overspend on players. I only ever said it's not Sandy's style so this shouldn't be a surprise that he's waiting in prices to come down and honestly most of the players people have screamed about wanting here (Lucroy, Tulo, and countless others over the years) ended up being garbage. Sandy hasn't guessed wrong on much. As for the roster... Nobody was complaining heading into the last three seasons.

There are plenty of good players on the board still. If prices come down and Sandy ends up getting a Bruce or a Cain and a Moustakas or a Frazier I think he will not only have done a good job but once again outsmarted the market.

The 10 million figure is BS IMO. Some beat's opinion everyone ran with...

We have to stay healthy though on top of bringing in a couple of guys. I will keep saying it until the I'm blue in the face. You simply cant not lose all your best players to injury and compete in this sport.

That aside, think about how many teams could survive losing a bonafide ace ala Harvey. That's a franchise crippling loss for most teams and he's pretty much a nonfactor now. We were still built to win in spite of losing a player of that caliber.

Cant really fault Sandy for some of the cards he was dealt over the last couple of years.
RE: RE: RE: They resigned Cespedes in November last year  
ZGiants98 : 1/8/2018 12:43 am : link
In comment 13776720 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 13776240 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


In comment 13774713 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


and outside of twice resigning Cespedes I don't think Sandy's previous offseasons have ever been models of success.



His last two offseasons weren't models of success? Going to the WS, postseason, and into a year that every person on earth predicted 90-ish wins screamed failure to you? interesting.



The WS year they were under .500 at the deadline despite having the best pitching in baseball because they didn't do what they needed to in the offseason. Forget Cespedes, Uribe, KJ and Clippard were enormously important acquisitions for roles that were mindlessly ignored in the offseason after lighting money on fire to signing Cuddyer and "the best pinch hitter in baseball" John Mayberry.

The WC year they were around .500 at the deadline, and actually under .500 in early August. Then they went on a run in large part thanks to Lugo and Gsellman.

Last year he stood pat with almost the exact same roster as the Wild Card year to obviously terrible results.

So resigning Cespedes aside, since that was just a function of market prices, which one of those offseasons was Sandy's best in your mind? The WS year he signed Cuddyer for $25M and gave up a first round pick day 1? The year he let Murphy go for almost nothing? Or last year when he mindlessly blew his entire budget signing Walker for $17M?


First of all. A roster isn't decided by free agency. The 2015-2017 rosters were built on a rebuild that happened 3-4 years prior. The team didnt need big piece free agents until they did. Granderson, Colon, ect were nice vets added to supplement all the young talent breaking in. When we needed that final piece we went for it ala Cespedes, Clippard, ect.. Second of all... the Mets didnt have the best pitching in baseball in 2015... they did in 2016.... and both of those seasons we dealt with a shit ton of injuries as well.... We simply weathered the storms... Nothing can compare to what happened to 2017 though... a complete blackout.
Lets also remember thats Sandys refusal  
bhill410 : 1/8/2018 2:30 am : link
To address the lineup and spend money over the winter of 2015 put us ina position where we had to make several trades for offensive players. That offense was historically bad in June of 2015. My issue with sandy, outside of Murphy and trying to trade for Gomez over cespedes, is that he is more than willing to go into seasons with glaring holes if he A or B plan fails or is more expensive than they realize. He has done it multiple times at multiple positions and each time it has exposed the team. A good gm just doesnt operate like that.
Is it really not Sandy's style to  
pjcas18 : 1/8/2018 8:20 am : link
"overspend" on players? or is it maybe a function of his budget allowed by ownership?

In Oakland he consistently had among the highest payrolls in the league - especially relative to their market.

It was only once the team was sold and he was instructed to slash payroll he became a moneyball disciple.

Now those A's teams weren't built solely in FA's, he had back to back to back rookies of the year, with Canseco, McGwire and Weiss, so there was good scouting he seems to have lost along the way but they all got paid with the A's.

and he did bring in free agents and traded for players like Dave Stewart, Eck, Henderson, etc.

San Diego also a small market team with traditionally low payrolls while Sandy was there, I think it was by order not by choice.

I just don't believe if he had a blank check Sandy Alderson would say no F it, I don't need that money to spend on free agents to augment/build our team I think we're ok dumpster diving.

I also don't think the money ball approach can win the WS or build a consistent winner in this era. Everyone though the Royals would defy logic, but now they're back to mediocrity after two good years (kind of like the Mets except the Royals sealed the deal).

Most of the playoff teams in MLB are among the highest payrolls.

Every now and then you have a team pop up like the Astros or Rays, but the Astros (like the Rays before them) had the #1 pick in baseball three years in a row and the #2 pick the next year and some shrewd IFA signings.

but those teams success are only sustainable until players have to get paid, unless they decide to pay them (see the Rays)
Eventually the GM needs to turn  
Metnut : 1/8/2018 9:44 am : link
the team into a consistent contender or else you need to find a new GM. After a large enough sample size, I'm not willing to accept excuses made for a GM's failures.

Sandy has been GM of the Mets since 2010. They've made the division series once during that span. IMO, that's just not good enough after being GM for so long. They need to get back there in 2018 IMO.
RE: I never said  
Section331 : 1/8/2018 9:48 am : link
In comment 13777538 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:

The 10 million figure is BS IMO. Some beat's opinion everyone ran with...


Come on, it wasn't Sherman's "opinion", he clearly said the figure came from his contacts within the organization. Not you can quibble with the veracity of that figure, but to cal it an opinion is pure homerism.
I've always found Sherman  
Metnut : 1/8/2018 10:10 am : link
to be a reliable reporter and once that isn't afraid to take the Wilpons to task.
.  
arcarsenal : 1/8/2018 10:12 am : link
We'll see if the figure was BS or not.

Based on them still needing markets to "bottom out" to sign anyone, I'm guessing it's more accurate than you think, Z.
Did you ghost write baseball maverick?  
Eric on Li : 1/8/2018 10:15 am : link
In comment 13777538 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
Nobody was complaining heading into the last three seasons.


That is not accurate at all. Going into 2015 a lot of people complained about the Cuddyer signing and most were dumbfounded they were penciling Flores in at SS without a backup plan. Writers were openly mocking them. The offense was predictably pathetic up until the moment they made acquisitions. When Uribe got traded in June and the Mets were rolling out Soup and Mayberry plenty of people said it was insane that they never add players. Then they got Uribe/KJ 2 months later and he made a big impact.

Going into 2016 I grant you that we were all thrilled to just get Cespedes back, but going into last year many were worried about the BP and disappointed they opted to bring back injury prone vets who didn't work out in 2016 - chiefly Walker. There was definitely cautious optimism but the BP falling apart was a concern.

In comment 13777538 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:

Cant really fault Sandy for some of the cards he was dealt over the last couple of years.


Yes, we can. We can fault him for signing an over the hill and injury prone Cuddyer and throwing away a first round pick. We can fault him for ignoring the BP for years, which led to Familia pitching more than anyone else in baseball and eventually getting hurt. We can fault him for the teams training staff and handling of injured players in general. And we can fault him for only acquiring 1 veteran impact player over his entire regime - Cespedes. I guess maybe you can expand that to 2, with Granderson, though he really only had 1 great season here. Not surprisingly those are also the 2 biggest contracts he's given out.
The Cuddyer deal made no sense  
Metnut : 1/8/2018 11:23 am : link
IMO, it should be added to Sandy's record in the draft since he gave away a first round pick to make that ill-advised signing.
RE: Did you ghost write baseball maverick?  
ZGiants98 : 1/8/2018 7:33 pm : link
In comment 13777854 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 13777538 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


Nobody was complaining heading into the last three seasons.



That is not accurate at all. Going into 2015 a lot of people complained about the Cuddyer signing and most were dumbfounded they were penciling Flores in at SS without a backup plan. Writers were openly mocking them. The offense was predictably pathetic up until the moment they made acquisitions. When Uribe got traded in June and the Mets were rolling out Soup and Mayberry plenty of people said it was insane that they never add players. Then they got Uribe/KJ 2 months later and he made a big impact.

Going into 2016 I grant you that we were all thrilled to just get Cespedes back, but going into last year many were worried about the BP and disappointed they opted to bring back injury prone vets who didn't work out in 2016 - chiefly Walker. There was definitely cautious optimism but the BP falling apart was a concern.

In comment 13777538 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:



Cant really fault Sandy for some of the cards he was dealt over the last couple of years.



Yes, we can. We can fault him for signing an over the hill and injury prone Cuddyer and throwing away a first round pick. We can fault him for ignoring the BP for years, which led to Familia pitching more than anyone else in baseball and eventually getting hurt. We can fault him for the teams training staff and handling of injured players in general. And we can fault him for only acquiring 1 veteran impact player over his entire regime - Cespedes. I guess maybe you can expand that to 2, with Granderson, though he really only had 1 great season here. Not surprisingly those are also the 2 biggest contracts he's given out.


Well I believe everything you said wasnt accurate at all. Giving Cuddyer a 2 year deal did absolutely nothing to hurt the franchise except forfeiting the pick but considering we actually did go to the WS that year Sandy was vindicated in adding a "final piece" type which is exactly when you give up a pick. The Mets dealt with many injuries in the first half of 2015 that effected the lineup as well but most importantly, their best hitter wasn't even called up until August of that year. Nobody had a better August/September than Conforto. The whole thing was a rebuild and that was basically the beginning of everything we had hoped to accomplish. If you think Soup and Mayberry were supposed to be major components of any team, you are full of it. As for going into last year? Huh? The bullpen was the absolute best in baseball the year prior and they brought back the whole thing. There were posters in here saying there would be no way we would offer Reed arbitration because he would be too expensive yet that's exactly what we did. We picked up Bruce's option, we spent a good amount of money bringing Walker back... The Mets did plenty last year to bring in just as talented a roster as 2015/2016.
RE: .  
ZGiants98 : 1/8/2018 7:35 pm : link
In comment 13777843 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
We'll see if the figure was BS or not.

Based on them still needing markets to "bottom out" to sign anyone, I'm guessing it's more accurate than you think, Z.


We shall see indeed. I hear this crap every single year and all the payroll does is go up since the talent started hitting the majors. Are we in the upper echelon? No. But Sandy absolutely spreads smoke to give him leverage in negotiations.
RE: RE: I never said  
ZGiants98 : 1/8/2018 7:42 pm : link
In comment 13777793 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13777538 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:



The 10 million figure is BS IMO. Some beat's opinion everyone ran with...



Come on, it wasn't Sherman's "opinion", he clearly said the figure came from his contacts within the organization. Not you can quibble with the veracity of that figure, but to cal it an opinion is pure homerism.


No he didn't. He said based on conversations he had with people inside and outside the organization he DEDUCED (as in guessed) the Mets had roughly 10 million to spend. He absolutely never said he spoke to anyone directly about a payroll number.
RE: Eventually the GM needs to turn  
ZGiants98 : 1/8/2018 9:17 pm : link
In comment 13777784 Metnut said:
Quote:
the team into a consistent contender or else you need to find a new GM. After a large enough sample size, I'm not willing to accept excuses made for a GM's failures.

Sandy has been GM of the Mets since 2010. They've made the division series once during that span. IMO, that's just not good enough after being GM for so long. They need to get back there in 2018 IMO.


I think you're a great poster here but it's exactly that kind of sweeping logic that drives me insane. When Sandy got here he was in bad contract hell (Bay, Castillo, Perez, Santana, ect.), the Madoff stuff was just hitting and he was asked to slash payroll, AND rebuild the system/team from scratch. Syndergaard, Conforto, Matz, ect. didnt even get called up until MID 2015... the year we went to the WS. Not a single one of his top picks made the majors before that year. 2015-2017 IS the window on which he should be judged IMO. Criticizing him on 2011 makes no sense.

Look. Sandy was a hero after 2015/2016. Now everyone wants to drag him through the mud and ignore he lost 4 of his top 5 players to injury last year (Syndergaard, Familia, Cespedes, and Conforto...not to mention Harvey the year prior). That's fine. There's really no sense in arguing it until we see how the team responds. The Mets currently have one player on their roster over 31 not named Wright. It's actually too young IMO. He needs to sprinkle in a few more vets. If he doesn't and we struggle Ill be right here criticizing him mid 2018 but I believe he deserves the benefit of the doubt at least until we see A.) the complete roster after the offseason is complete and B.) How the team bounces back from all the injuries we've suffered.

All of us are just pissing in the wind until that happens. The proof will be in the pudding.
RE: RE: Eventually the GM needs to turn  
Metnut : 1/9/2018 10:37 am : link
In comment 13779099 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 13777784 Metnut said:


Quote:


the team into a consistent contender or else you need to find a new GM. After a large enough sample size, I'm not willing to accept excuses made for a GM's failures.

Sandy has been GM of the Mets since 2010. They've made the division series once during that span. IMO, that's just not good enough after being GM for so long. They need to get back there in 2018 IMO.



I think you're a great poster here but it's exactly that kind of sweeping logic that drives me insane. When Sandy got here he was in bad contract hell (Bay, Castillo, Perez, Santana, ect.), the Madoff stuff was just hitting and he was asked to slash payroll, AND rebuild the system/team from scratch. Syndergaard, Conforto, Matz, ect. didnt even get called up until MID 2015... the year we went to the WS. Not a single one of his top picks made the majors before that year. 2015-2017 IS the window on which he should be judged IMO. Criticizing him on 2011 makes no sense.

Look. Sandy was a hero after 2015/2016. Now everyone wants to drag him through the mud and ignore he lost 4 of his top 5 players to injury last year (Syndergaard, Familia, Cespedes, and Conforto...not to mention Harvey the year prior). That's fine. There's really no sense in arguing it until we see how the team responds. The Mets currently have one player on their roster over 31 not named Wright. It's actually too young IMO. He needs to sprinkle in a few more vets. If he doesn't and we struggle Ill be right here criticizing him mid 2018 but I believe he deserves the benefit of the doubt at least until we see A.) the complete roster after the offseason is complete and B.) How the team bounces back from all the injuries we've suffered.

All of us are just pissing in the wind until that happens. The proof will be in the pudding.


Fair enough points Z, and yea, there's certainly a possibility of a major on-field rebound next year with some health and some luck.

I'm just frustrated with the state of the whole organization right now. The injuries were brutal last year and its hard to blame the GM for that, but I think it's fair to criticize him for the weak farm system and lack of depth in the bullpen last year. Collins' miss-use of the pen falls on Alderson, as does the universally maligned Mets training staff, since all of these guys are Alderson hires or guys that Alderson has the option to replace.

I'm of course willing to cut him some slack if the team and farm system rebounds in 2018, but I think you also have to understand why a lot of Met fans aren't happy right now.

Hopefully they can improve the team a bit before the offseason is over.
Payroll has gone up  
bhill410 : 1/9/2018 12:09 pm : link
But its still an embarrassment
Mets  
DanMetroMan : 1/9/2018 12:11 pm : link
40 man roster payroll rankings the last 5 seasons

15th (which actually isn't accurate as it doesn't include -15 for David Wright).
15th
19th
21st
Sorry  
DanMetroMan : 1/9/2018 12:11 pm : link
5 seasons ago

17th
RE: Mets  
Metnut : 1/9/2018 12:18 pm : link
In comment 13780071 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
40 man roster payroll rankings the last 5 seasons

15th (which actually isn't accurate as it doesn't include -15 for David Wright).
15th
19th
21st


Ideally, we'd all like to see them in the top 5 range for most years, and with a new owner, I think that's possible.

Even having said that, if the Mets were in the 6-10 range most years (with things fluctuating year to year), I think most of us would be fine with that. Being outside the top 10, even outside the top 15, when the Mets are charging NYC prices for parking and concessions just isn't fair to the fans. It creates a self-reinforcing cycle where the fans won't come out to games, and then the Mets have to try and giveaway tickets at the last minute through some sort of deal and you have Islander style 10K people actually at the game on weeknights.
That's  
DanMetroMan : 1/9/2018 12:32 pm : link
the fallacy of the payroll argument

1) That Mets fans expect to be the Dodgers or Yankees
2) People have yet to adjust their minds to inflation. Teams 13-15-16 in 25 man payrolls were 154, 151, 140. Spending 140-150 million is no longer a "big" payroll. It's firmly average.

3) Even taking THAT into account the #10 payroll in baseball opening day was 164 million, the Mets minus David Wright came in at 141 million. For 23 million dollars (and that's not even being "greedy" and expecting to be top 5 etc, imagine the talent you could have. The #8 payroll (again not being greedy and expecting to be the Dodgers) opening day payroll was 32 million more than the Mets.

4) Steve Phillips flat out acknowledged that unlike most teams, the Mets payroll is directly tied to attendance which means if the Mets have a really bad season, this is compounded because it means spending is coming down. The problem is made worse.

5) The draft/development has been disastrous and unlike bringing in a new medical staff to my knowledge NOTHING has changed in the off-season. Why should anyone be optimistic?

6) For whatever the season the FO does not believe in making use of the Rule 5, waivers or even smaller trades. People like to focus on the Yankee payroll, what does their payroll have to do with guys like Chad Green, Didi, Aaron Hicks? Where are the Nate Karns for Dyson gambles?

RE: That's  
Eric on Li : 1/9/2018 1:12 pm : link
In comment 13780094 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
the fallacy of the payroll argument

1) That Mets fans expect to be the Dodgers or Yankees
2) People have yet to adjust their minds to inflation. Teams 13-15-16 in 25 man payrolls were 154, 151, 140. Spending 140-150 million is no longer a "big" payroll. It's firmly average.

3) Even taking THAT into account the #10 payroll in baseball opening day was 164 million, the Mets minus David Wright came in at 141 million. For 23 million dollars (and that's not even being "greedy" and expecting to be top 5 etc, imagine the talent you could have. The #8 payroll (again not being greedy and expecting to be the Dodgers) opening day payroll was 32 million more than the Mets.

4) Steve Phillips flat out acknowledged that unlike most teams, the Mets payroll is directly tied to attendance which means if the Mets have a really bad season, this is compounded because it means spending is coming down. The problem is made worse.

5) The draft/development has been disastrous and unlike bringing in a new medical staff to my knowledge NOTHING has changed in the off-season. Why should anyone be optimistic?

6) For whatever the season the FO does not believe in making use of the Rule 5, waivers or even smaller trades. People like to focus on the Yankee payroll, what does their payroll have to do with guys like Chad Green, Didi, Aaron Hicks? Where are the Nate Karns for Dyson gambles?


this x1m. The org is a joke and while Sandy is not a joke, he's a decent GM, he hasn't done a very good job. His regime deserves credit for acquiring Thor, developing JDG, developing Familia, drafting Conforto, but there have been far too many misses along the way and even 8 offseasons later there's no coherent strategy. Acquire flawed and cheap stop gaps, pray for the health of the pitchers, rinse and repeat.
If this isn't the kiss of death for a Mets fan I don't know what is  
pjcas18 : 1/9/2018 2:46 pm : link
Quote:

Metsmerized Online
‏ @MetsMerized
2h2 hours ago

New Post: Syndergaard Says Hes Never Felt Better http://metsmerizedonline.com/?p=252495 #Mets #LGM
Sure  
pjcas18 : 1/9/2018 3:47 pm : link
Quote:
Newsday Sports‏Verified account @NewsdaySports

#Mets still interested in signing Jay Bruce and Addison Reed, source says | @newsdaymarcus https://nwsdy.li/2DehD8r


RE: RE: That's  
ZGiants98 : 1/9/2018 8:23 pm : link
In comment 13780196 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 13780094 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


the fallacy of the payroll argument

1) That Mets fans expect to be the Dodgers or Yankees
2) People have yet to adjust their minds to inflation. Teams 13-15-16 in 25 man payrolls were 154, 151, 140. Spending 140-150 million is no longer a "big" payroll. It's firmly average.

3) Even taking THAT into account the #10 payroll in baseball opening day was 164 million, the Mets minus David Wright came in at 141 million. For 23 million dollars (and that's not even being "greedy" and expecting to be top 5 etc, imagine the talent you could have. The #8 payroll (again not being greedy and expecting to be the Dodgers) opening day payroll was 32 million more than the Mets.

4) Steve Phillips flat out acknowledged that unlike most teams, the Mets payroll is directly tied to attendance which means if the Mets have a really bad season, this is compounded because it means spending is coming down. The problem is made worse.

5) The draft/development has been disastrous and unlike bringing in a new medical staff to my knowledge NOTHING has changed in the off-season. Why should anyone be optimistic?

6) For whatever the season the FO does not believe in making use of the Rule 5, waivers or even smaller trades. People like to focus on the Yankee payroll, what does their payroll have to do with guys like Chad Green, Didi, Aaron Hicks? Where are the Nate Karns for Dyson gambles?




this x1m. The org is a joke and while Sandy is not a joke, he's a decent GM, he hasn't done a very good job. His regime deserves credit for acquiring Thor, developing JDG, developing Familia, drafting Conforto, but there have been far too many misses along the way and even 8 offseasons later there's no coherent strategy. Acquire flawed and cheap stop gaps, pray for the health of the pitchers, rinse and repeat.


7 offseasons.
Actually it has been 8  
ZGiants98 : 1/9/2018 8:39 pm : link
my bad. Time flies.
I actually dont even think  
ZGiants98 : 1/9/2018 8:41 pm : link
McCutchen and Harrison would be even as good as say... Walker and Bruce... but at this point i would certainly welcome it. It would improve the roster. Conforto would have to play CF though. Dont want to see Cutch there anymore.
RE: Sure  
arcarsenal : 1/9/2018 8:48 pm : link
In comment 13780544 pjcas18 said:
Quote:


Quote:


Newsday Sports‏Verified account @NewsdaySports

#Mets still interested in signing Jay Bruce and Addison Reed, source says | @newsdaymarcus https://nwsdy.li/2DehD8r




It's not even that they're bad players - it just screams "lack of creativity" - it's like all we know are these same guys we keep rostering.

It would be nice to see the Mets make an acquisition that's a little off the radar or outside the box, but I'm not holding my breath.

Instead, we'll re-acquire the same players we weren't good enough to win with the first time they were here.
If the plan involves playing  
Metnut : 1/9/2018 8:52 pm : link
Conforto or Cespedes in center field full time, then it sounds like a shitty one to me.
RE: If the plan involves playing  
Eric on Li : 1/9/2018 10:00 pm : link
In comment 13780858 Metnut said:
Quote:
Conforto or Cespedes in center field full time, then it sounds like a shitty one to me.


Agreed.
RE: Actually it has been 8  
Eric on Li : 1/9/2018 10:10 pm : link
In comment 13780843 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
my bad. Time flies.


In 8 offseasons here's a list of Sandy's good moves:
1. Dickey trade (saved $)
2. Granderson ($60M)
3. Colon ($20M)
4. Cabrera ($24M)
5. Resigning Cespedes ($135M)
<end of list>

I mean, maybe you could expand it to add Walker but he was basically hurt for most of 2 years and way overpaid the 2nd year. There are teams in recent years who have made more big moves and spent more in 1 offseason than Sandy has made in his entire tenure - Cubs, Yankees, Nats, etc. The lack of talent acquisitions in the offseason is one of the main reasons this franchise doesn't consistently compete with those teams during the season.
RE: If the plan involves playing  
ZGiants98 : 1/9/2018 11:00 pm : link
In comment 13780858 Metnut said:
Quote:
Conforto or Cespedes in center field full time, then it sounds like a shitty one to me.


I dont get this logic. Cespedes? Sure. He's awful in CF. Conforto was pretty close to average there though. He's a much better CF than Nimmo was and everyone seems fine with a Lagares/Nimmo platoon. I dont get that one.
RE: RE: Actually it has been 8  
ZGiants98 : 1/9/2018 11:01 pm : link
In comment 13780925 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 13780843 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


my bad. Time flies.



In 8 offseasons here's a list of Sandy's good moves:
1. Dickey trade (saved $)
2. Granderson ($60M)
3. Colon ($20M)
4. Cabrera ($24M)
5. Resigning Cespedes ($135M)
<end of list>

I mean, maybe you could expand it to add Walker but he was basically hurt for most of 2 years and way overpaid the 2nd year. There are teams in recent years who have made more big moves and spent more in 1 offseason than Sandy has made in his entire tenure - Cubs, Yankees, Nats, etc. The lack of talent acquisitions in the offseason is one of the main reasons this franchise doesn't consistently compete with those teams during the season.


LOL.
RE: RE: RE: Actually it has been 8  
Eric on Li : 1/9/2018 11:10 pm : link
In comment 13780944 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 13780925 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 13780843 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


my bad. Time flies.



In 8 offseasons here's a list of Sandy's good moves:
1. Dickey trade (saved $)
2. Granderson ($60M)
3. Colon ($20M)
4. Cabrera ($24M)
5. Resigning Cespedes ($135M)
<end of list>

I mean, maybe you could expand it to add Walker but he was basically hurt for most of 2 years and way overpaid the 2nd year. There are teams in recent years who have made more big moves and spent more in 1 offseason than Sandy has made in his entire tenure - Cubs, Yankees, Nats, etc. The lack of talent acquisitions in the offseason is one of the main reasons this franchise doesn't consistently compete with those teams during the season.



LOL.


Which part of my post isn't true? Omitting John Mayberry? AdA?
I could probably throw out 10-15 "moves"  
ZGiants98 : 1/9/2018 11:15 pm : link
from last year alone.

1.) QO Walker (Walker had a good season)
2.) Picking up Bruce's option (Bruce had a good season)
3.) Offering arbitration to Reed (Reed had a good year)
4.) Signing Cespedes to a 4 year deal.
5.) Signing Blevins to a two year deal.
6.) Drafting Peterson (viewed favorably)
7.) Drafted Vientos (viewed favorably)
8.) Successfully traded Granderson in a suppressed market
9.) Successfully traded Walker in a suppressed market
10.) Successfully traded Duda in a suppressed market
11.) Successfully traded Reed in a suppressed market
12.) Successfully traded Bruce in a suppressed market

ect. ect.

Sandy's worst move ever is probably Cuddyer... A guy that hit league average and he had to pay for a whopping one season.
most of those are not offseason moves, none are aquisitions  
Eric on Li : 1/9/2018 11:43 pm : link
every GM offers players arbitration and makes draft picks. Most teams tinker with their rosters at the trade deadline as either buyers or sellers. The offseason is when non-Mets organizations spend money to improve their rosters by adding talent via FA or making trades. I think you are smart enough to understand the concept of "the offseason" but maybe not.
Below average, not league average.  
PhiPsi125 : 1/9/2018 11:47 pm : link
And we wasted money that the team clearly doesnt have.

And we gave away the #15 draft pick for that one whopping season.

Nice list tho.

RE: most of those are not offseason moves, none are aquisitions  
ZGiants98 : 1/9/2018 11:56 pm : link
In comment 13780957 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
every GM offers players arbitration and makes draft picks. Most teams tinker with their rosters at the trade deadline as either buyers or sellers. The offseason is when non-Mets organizations spend money to improve their rosters by adding talent via FA or making trades. I think you are smart enough to understand the concept of "the offseason" but maybe not.


Kind of ridiculous then since being a GM is a 365 day a year job but even still Walker, Bruce, Reed, ect all happened in the offseason. Either way, he wasnt really in a position to be adding talent to supplement the youth until the last three years or so but even so I can still rattle off Marlon Byrd type moves that you didnt include.

This is a ridiculous argument though so Ill gladly bow out. Sandy sucks. You can have it.
RE: Below average, not league average.  
ZGiants98 : 1/9/2018 11:59 pm : link
In comment 13780961 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
And we wasted money that the team clearly doesnt have.

And we gave away the #15 draft pick for that one whopping season.

Nice list tho.


Yes. At a 97 wRC+ he missed hitting a 100 on the nose. (eye roll emoji)

We also have no idea if the 15th pick would have amounted to anything AND Desmond Linsday had a first-round grade in some circles that year AND we went to the WS that year and believe it or not... Cuddyer did contribute some to that team.

I agree though... Cuddyer didnt work out that great. Now compare that up against the Oliver Perez, Castillo, Bay, ect atrocities we dealt with from Sandy's predecessor.
Got it - it's ridiculous for GM's to improve their team's in offseason  
Eric on Li : 1/10/2018 12:06 am : link
Marlon Byrd was a good move, you are right I forgot that one. It was a minor league contract that obviously paid off way beyond expectations and it was an undeniably great pickup.

The main point stands - in 8 offseasons Sandy has not made very many acquisitions, which is a problem for a team that hasn't drafted well enough to fill the holes on the roster with all homegrown players. Money is a factor but not the only one.
Again...  
ZGiants98 : 1/10/2018 12:09 am : link
At the time Syndergaard, Matz, Conforto, ect were hitting the majors it was already 2015. I havent been dissatisfied with many of his rosters heading into either of the last years. I dont really know what holes you speak of. We have some holes now IMO but I dont think we are done either...

And now this is probably the point where you point out our record last year and I talk about the complete wipeout in injuries and on and on we go...

(last three years)  
ZGiants98 : 1/10/2018 12:09 am : link
.
And no it's not ridiculous to go after acquisitions  
ZGiants98 : 1/10/2018 12:13 am : link
in the offseason but if you are acquiring guys at the deadline with an eye to the next year (Ramos being a perfect example) what the hell is the difference?
Pretty hilarious reading the comments  
ZGiants98 : 1/10/2018 12:24 am : link
heading into 2016 and 2017 the last two offseasons (myself included).

2016
Link - ( New Window )
2017  
ZGiants98 : 1/10/2018 12:25 am : link
....
Link - ( New Window )
The value or lack thereof, he got in return  
Modus Operandi : 1/10/2018 6:19 am : link
For trading Reed, Duda, et al is more telling.

I don't know how you can view Aldersons tenure as anything but a disaster.
RE: 2017  
NewFakeDannyHeep : 1/10/2018 8:19 am : link
In comment 13780976 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
.... Link - ( New Window )


That's what I get for being optimistic.
Of course I was overly optimistic for 2017  
pjcas18 : 1/10/2018 8:53 am : link
how can you not be the way the team has been decimated by injuries the past few years. Doesn't make sense.

and I stand by this post again for this year:

Quote:
The past couple years
pjcas18 : 3/31/2017 1:32 pm : link
have been an almost anything that can go wrong did go wrong from an injury standpoint from Wheeler to Harvey to deGrom to Wright and Duda and Walker and TDA, etc. and they went to the WS in 2015 and made the wild card in 2016.

Last year's playoff rotation would have been Thor, Colon, Gsellman and Lugo - and with Thor pitching the WC game he probably (or possibly) would have gotten 1 start in the NLDS. No Duda, no Walker, no Wright, and just a bad year for TDA and nothing from big deadline acquisition Bruce.

I have to believe this year the odds balance out and the Mets only get their fair share of injuries and thrive like they're capable of doing.


The Mets will go as far as their pitching takes them.
fan predictions would've been better if we knew the injury risks  
Eric on Li : 1/10/2018 9:37 am : link
Injuries are always a large portion luck, but the organization had a lot of information that only came out to fans later that would have given people a lot more reason for concern with their predictions heading into the season. For example:

The organization had a lot more visibility in Cespedes offseason bulk up last year than fans did and possibly even how playing out of position in CF was harder on his legs when he hurt his hammy in 2016. How Harvey started last season with the big club off surgery with 1 of his shoulders supposedly dramatically weaker than the other is hard to fathom. Dan even posted that preseason Thor was projected as one of the most likely players in baseball to get injured. Wheeler's elbow is another situation where the organization has consistently been unable to figure out what to do, which makes it look insane that they traded Fulmer over Wheeler at the 2015 deadline. Familia being an injury risk wasn't rocket science since he's had to pitch more innings than anyone in baseball due to the thin BP, and that's one obvious area that I'd say the majority of fans called out as a weakness consistently the last 3 seasons.

So yes, injuries are definitely the #1 factor in this roster's success. As PJ said they will go as far as the rotation takes them. But that's not an excuse to do nothing else to strengthen the roster. In fact, having weaker depth and a weaker overall roster puts more strain on the injury prone players because instead of getting better on the DL Cespedes tries to gut through it for months at a time, etc.
RE: fan predictions would've been better if we knew the injury risks  
JayBinQueens : 1/10/2018 9:51 am : link
In comment 13781192 Eric on Li said:
Quote:

Dan even posted that preseason Thor was projected as one of the most likely players in baseball to get injured.


I don't remember the post but it makes sense. Did it have any reasoning behind it other than he throws hard and it's bound to happen?
I think the Mets should add Reed  
pjcas18 : 1/10/2018 9:55 am : link
at a minimum - bullpen could become a strength, but they HAVE to make other moves. IMO it's not even a question of will they, they have to.

One Mets beat writer pointed out Champ Stuart (with Conforto on the DL (until May?)) would be 4th OFer. I think Stuart would add a much needed element to the Mets with his speed and defense, but his bat is not major league even as 4th OFer.

So basically the OF right now is:

Cespedes Nimmo/Lagares Conforto (DL)

However given the historically slow (at least in my memory) hot stove season I'll be patient b/c I'm fairly certain the roster today is very different than what the roster will be on March 31.
So Thor was predicted to get hurt by some because of the  
bhill410 : 1/10/2018 9:58 am : link
Amount of muscle he put on. Some of else are still concerned because he had elbow issues prior to all of this. Its one of the reasons he didnt want a MRI and also why he got a couple the year before. Those issues havent gone anywhere. If there is any credibility to those original concerns it would not surprise me in the least if we lost Thor again this year.
I  
DanMetroMan : 1/10/2018 9:59 am : link
used to be a Champ Stuart "guy" in an extra OF role but he just can't hit... at all. .222 with 122 k's over 320 ab's in AA as a 24 year old = shouldn't be in your top 6-7 OF let alone in line to make the big club. Career .225 hitter so it's not like I'm being selective. At minimum they should be looking at Dyson types (why they can't make minor trades like an Aaron Hicks-esque move is beyond me).
RE: RE: fan predictions would've been better if we knew the injury risks  
DanMetroMan : 1/10/2018 10:06 am : link
In comment 13781220 JayBinQueens said:
Quote:
In comment 13781192 Eric on Li said:


Quote:



Dan even posted that preseason Thor was projected as one of the most likely players in baseball to get injured.



I don't remember the post but it makes sense. Did it have any reasoning behind it other than he throws hard and it's bound to happen?


Yes, multiple experts (including Tom House) flat out said Syndergaard would likely get hurt this season in-part because of the idiotic training that included a lot of gym work but no throwing. Even Syndergaard (at the time) didn't really dispute this

"I get what [House] is saying. He might be right if I was bunched up and tight. But my arm is loose, my flexibility is good. I'm not worried.""

Verducci also spoke to someone off the record he named Syndergaard as one of his most likely to get injured and Chris O'Leary (a controversial figure in pitching mechanics) nailed both Harvey and Syndergaard.
MMO-  
DanMetroMan : 1/10/2018 10:10 am : link
Last night in an interview on WFAN, Jon Heyman said acquiring McCutchen is considered a long shot.

Heyman also said that he does not expect the Mets to sign third baseman Mike Moustakas.
RE: RE: fan predictions would've been better if we knew the injury risks  
Section331 : 1/10/2018 10:13 am : link
In comment 13781220 JayBinQueens said:
Quote:

I don't remember the post but it makes sense. Did it have any reasoning behind it other than he throws hard and it's bound to happen?


Tom House said publicly that Thor had gotten too big, that his workout routine did not include enough throwing, and that he would be injured by June.

Looking at Thor this offseason, he looks much leaner, hoping for big things from him.
McCutchen  
DanMetroMan : 1/10/2018 10:22 am : link
is a poor fit anyway. Can't play CF, 1 year deal, Pirates not looking to "salary dump".
.  
arcarsenal : 1/10/2018 10:24 am : link
Hard pass on McCutchen.

I still want Cain. But we won't sign him unless his market "bottoms out," so...
.  
pjcas18 : 1/10/2018 10:25 am : link
Quote:
According to MLB insiders, free-agent 3B Todd Frazier would prefer to sign with the Mets or Yankees.
RE: .  
spike : 1/10/2018 10:28 am : link
In comment 13781315 pjcas18 said:
Quote:


Quote:


According to MLB insiders, free-agent 3B Todd Frazier would prefer to sign with the Mets or Yankees.



I would take him as the only vet signing thjs offseason. Frazier is a clubhouse leader
Dave  
DanMetroMan : 1/10/2018 11:09 am : link
Cameron leaving FG's to join the Padres
RE: Dave  
Eric on Li : 1/10/2018 11:58 am : link
In comment 13781395 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Cameron leaving FG's to join the Padres


whoa. Good for him.
RE: .  
Eric on Li : 1/10/2018 12:07 pm : link
In comment 13781309 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Hard pass on McCutchen.

I still want Cain. But we won't sign him unless his market "bottoms out," so...


Same. Cain, Kipinis, Reed would actually make this a solid offseason. That's 2 everyday players who could be as good as anyone at their positions in the NL over the next 2-3 years (which is the window). Both are positive impact on offense at the top of the order and in the field (even if Cain has some regression from his GG days). All 3 of those moves are so obviously hanging out there to be made, except for the fact that in Mets world spending any money = "unrealistic expectations to act like the yankees".

Kipinis
Cain
Conforto
Cespedes
Cabrera
TDA
Smith
Rosario
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 1/10/2018 2:01 pm : link
In comment 13781495 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 13781309 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Hard pass on McCutchen.

I still want Cain. But we won't sign him unless his market "bottoms out," so...



Same. Cain, Kipinis, Reed would actually make this a solid offseason. That's 2 everyday players who could be as good as anyone at their positions in the NL over the next 2-3 years (which is the window). Both are positive impact on offense at the top of the order and in the field (even if Cain has some regression from his GG days). All 3 of those moves are so obviously hanging out there to be made, except for the fact that in Mets world spending any money = "unrealistic expectations to act like the yankees".

Kipinis
Cain
Conforto
Cespedes
Cabrera
TDA
Smith
Rosario


Agreed. I wouldn't be brimming with confidence about the team but at least there'd be some reason for hope of a decent year with some injury luck.
yup - and who knows? If Rosario or Smith takes off  
Eric on Li : 1/10/2018 2:11 pm : link
and the pitching is reasonably healthy they could easily be better than the 15 and 16 teams. The defense would be a lot better and the BP too. Less power but a lot more athleticism.

Any 7 game series with JDG and Thor pitching the majority of those games is a series they can win.
With that lineup  
pjcas18 : 1/10/2018 2:15 pm : link
and if they add Reed to the pen giving the Mets a pen of:

Familia
Reed
Swarzak
Ramos
Blevins
+

that's a team I'd head into battle with and at least feel like has a shot to compete.

but again, the health of the starting rotation will determine how far they go IMO.

Has anyone read about the new off-season regimen the pitchers are using with Callaway and Eiland?

I saw the headline and didn't click on it, but at least they're changing things up.

I was dismayed to see Rosario at Barwis. I guess that means he's going to regress or be injured.
I'm  
DanMetroMan : 1/10/2018 2:36 pm : link
willing to put my BBI "career" on the line. 0% chance the Mets add Cain, Kipnis AND Reed (or any trio = that amount of money). I believe they will sign Todd Frazier as their "big" add and someone like Adam Lind + an Aoki type.
Massive  
DanMetroMan : 1/10/2018 2:38 pm : link
pass on Starlin Castro.
RE: Massive  
pjcas18 : 1/10/2018 2:39 pm : link
In comment 13781766 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
pass on Starlin Castro.


agree, rather run Flores out there, unless he's part of a Yelich trade.
Castro  
DanMetroMan : 1/10/2018 2:46 pm : link
has been better than league average (by fWAR) 3 times in his career, most recent in 2014. -14 DRS over the past 2 seasons good for the 2nd worst defensive 2b in during that time (tied with Brandon Phillips who was 35 and 36 these past 2 seasons) and he's owed 22 million.
.  
DanMetroMan : 1/10/2018 2:48 pm : link

Mike Puma‏Verified account
@NYPost_Mets
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Mets have spoken in recent days with Jay Bruce's agent. Bruce still very much a possibility.
RE: I'm  
Eric on Li : 1/10/2018 2:51 pm : link
In comment 13781763 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
willing to put my BBI "career" on the line. 0% chance the Mets add Cain, Kipnis AND Reed (or any trio = that amount of money). I believe they will sign Todd Frazier as their "big" add and someone like Adam Lind + an Aoki type.


I completely agree. My post was entirely to point out how ridiculous it is that they're a NY franchise and they can't even do something simple along the lines of what I posted. Contrary to what the excuse makers say, improving this roster isn't impossible - finding competent ownership/management is.
RE: I'm  
pjcas18 : 1/10/2018 3:00 pm : link
In comment 13781763 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
willing to put my BBI "career" on the line. 0% chance the Mets add Cain, Kipnis AND Reed (or any trio = that amount of money). I believe they will sign Todd Frazier as their "big" add and someone like Adam Lind + an Aoki type.


Of course they won't. No one here thinks they will. Point was they should.
Starlin  
DanMetroMan : 1/10/2018 3:03 pm : link
Castro road slugging the last 2 seasons 394 and 357
RE: .  
Metnut : 1/10/2018 3:05 pm : link
In comment 13781782 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:

Mike Puma‏Verified account
@NYPost_Mets
Following Following @NYPost_Mets
More
Mets have spoken in recent days with Jay Bruce's agent. Bruce still very much a possibility.


So much for getting better on defense.

Even with last year's good season, Bruce has averaged 0.75 WAR per season over the past 4 years and 2200 ABs. He also had a wRC of only 104 (which is particularly sad for such a horrific defensive player) in the second half last year.

HARD HARD PASS
.  
arcarsenal : 1/10/2018 3:29 pm : link
I'm sure you're right, Dan.

Just frustrating that those moves really wouldn't require a huge financial commitment and it'll still be too rich for the Mets' tastes.

But hey, we might get Jay Bruce back! WOO!
Just to clarify...  
Metnut : 1/10/2018 3:33 pm : link
if the market proves to completely collapse for Bruce, I'm fine signing him for 1yr/$10M and using him as a 4 OF. He'll get some ABs until Conforto is ready while Lagares/Nimmo play CF. One thing about Callaway is that he's not been afraid to bench underperforming vets (something Collins was terrible at) so I'd have more confidence in our manager to use him right.

If you're signing Bruce to a multi-year deal (even something like 2yr/$27M would be gross) and hoping that he replicates his first half last year, I think it's a horrendous waste of our incredibly limited financial resources.
How do you know this?  
pjcas18 : 1/10/2018 3:46 pm : link
Quote:
...One thing about Callaway is that he's not been afraid to bench underperforming vets (something Collins was terrible at) so I'd have more confidence in our manager to use him right. ...


From what I know he's never been a manager before. Even in the minors I believe.
RE: How do you know this?  
Metnut : 1/10/2018 3:55 pm : link
In comment 13781889 pjcas18 said:
Quote:


Quote:


...One thing about Callaway is that he's not been afraid to bench underperforming vets (something Collins was terrible at) so I'd have more confidence in our manager to use him right. ...



From what I know he's never been a manager before. Even in the minors I believe.


Whoops, you're 100% right. I was thinking of some situations in Cleveland where they were more proactive with the playing time but Callaway was only pitching coach there, not the manager. Apologies.

Hopefully Callaway ends up being as proactive as I imagined him to be.
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