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the 2018 Cap - JPP and OV

djstat : 1/8/2018 4:35 pm
Source of Cap is Overthecap.com

The difference between cutting JPP and Vernon

JPP 2018 Cap Number $17.5 Million
OV - $17 Million

JPP's Base Salary is 11.25 Million with $7.75 Million Guaranteed. Prorated signing bonus of $5 Million, $1 Million Roster Bonus and a $250K workout bonus

OV - Base salary is 12.75 Million with $0 guaranteed. $4 Million prorated signing bonus, $250K Work out bonus.

If you Cut JPP: The cap savings on his base salary is $3.5 Million. His $7.75 Million is guaranteed and counts against 2018 regardless if you cut him pre/post June 1. He would not earn his roster bonus or workout bonus so that's a savings of 1.25 Million. So dead money is at 7.75 Million and savings is at 1.25 Million. The kicker is the signing bonus. JPP received a $20 Million Signing bonus in the winter of 2017. It is prorated at $5 Million per year. As of this moment he has $15 Million of signing bonus left to count against NYG Cap.

If Cut before June 1 all $15 Million counts against the cap in 2018 along with his $7.75 million guaranteed salary for a total cap number in 2018 of $22.75 Million instead of his current $17.5 Million Cap hit.

If JPP is cut with the June 1 designation, his $7.75 Million guaranteed salary counts against our cap in 2018 as does the $5 Million prorated signing bonus giving him a current year cap hit of $12.75 million. We'd save $5 Million against his current cap number this year, but carryover the rest of his signing bonus of $10 Million to 2019. So that means he'd count $12.75 Million against the cap in 2018 and $10 Million in 2019 and he would not play a single snap. Smart money is JPP will stay, unless we can find a sucker to trade for him. If JPP is traded before June 1, his entire remaining signing bonus ($15 Million) counts against this years Cap. We'd save $2.5 Million from his current cap number. If traded after June 1, His cap hit in 2018 is $5 Million, but in 2019 he'd count $10 Million against the cap.

Moving onto Olivier Vernon. His work is easier. If cut prior to June 1, his remaining $12 Million in signing bonus accelerates and counts against this years cap. That would be it/ We'd save $5 Million on the cap and be done with him. If cut with post June 1 designation, He'd count $4 million against this years cap and $8 Million next against 2019 cap. Keep in mind with the post June 1 designation, you do not get the extra cap relief, in this case the extra $8 Million, until June 1. It is more of a tool to release a player early so they can get a new job quicker but the team has to carry the cap number to June 1. So if OV is cut with a June 1 designation, he'd carry a 12 million cap number until June 1. Then on June 2, his cap number would change to $4 Million, with the remaining 8 million hitting NYG 2019 Cap.

OK Any questions?
We aren't up against the cap..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/8/2018 4:36 pm : link
so why do so many people look to make moves to save cap $$$?
RE: We aren't up against the cap..  
BocaGiants91 : 1/8/2018 4:42 pm : link
In comment 13778641 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
so why do so many people look to make moves to save cap $$$?


Cause if your going to rebuild your not winning next year and you may just want to get rid of all the bad contracts not take the cap hits so for 2019 you have a clean cap for the most part and can go get what you want to win if you put together some good drafts to go with it.
The cap keeps going up..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/8/2018 4:45 pm : link
each year and the capologist's job is to advise on the contracts so they are manageable. Abrahms has done a good job in that aspect.

It is often tough when dealing with fan posts about the cap because so few people realize that being under the cap can sometimes be as bad as being over the cap. In an ideal world, a team would spend all of their allocated dollars and have the contracts come off the books as they add new ones.

We've been in very good cap shape for years now.
Vernon isn't going anywhere.  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/8/2018 4:46 pm : link
JPP is likely here another year.
RE: We aren't up against the cap..  
old man : 1/8/2018 4:49 pm : link
In comment 13778641 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
so why do so many people look to make moves to save cap $$$?


To dump underperforming player(s) and free up cap to sign more quality players to accelerate a turnaround after the last 5+ years of randomness?
To both points, you need players for those positions  
Dinger : 1/8/2018 4:55 pm : link
and while they may not be the best and be 'underperforming' unless you find someone who will outperform them or you are in dire need of cap space, it makes no sense to cut them for 'cutting sake'....
RE: We aren't up against the cap..  
djstat : 1/8/2018 4:58 pm : link
In comment 13778641 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
so why do so many people look to make moves to save cap $$$?
Always are against the cap. And people wanting to move on from bad contracts. Sorry for sharing some information.
JPP and OV aren't going anywhere  
section125 : 1/8/2018 5:00 pm : link
this year. There are others that are likely gone that will save $10 to 12 against the cap.

Why don't we wait and see who the HC and DC are so they know what kind of defense they are playing. Likely a 4-3 but they might switch to 3-4.
It looks like there'd  
Metnut : 1/8/2018 5:00 pm : link
be a huge amount of "dead money" by cutting them. They both played at an elite level (or at least close to it) not too long ago when we were 11-5, and both played through injuries and go stronger as the year went on in this lost season.

IMO, keep them both for next year and hope for a rebound. Giants are paying for their d-line either way. Might as well get the players we're paying for.
RE: JPP and OV aren't going anywhere  
djstat : 1/8/2018 5:18 pm : link
In comment 13778692 section125 said:
Quote:
this year. There are others that are likely gone that will save $10 to 12 against the cap.

Why don't we wait and see who the HC and DC are so they know what kind of defense they are playing. Likely a 4-3 but they might switch to 3-4.


Agreed my top 5 I'd cut are:

Marshall - $5.1 Million
Jerry - $2.5 Million
Harris - $2.45 Million
Wing - $1.02 Million
Armstrong - $1.25 Million

Those five total $12.32 Million

DRC is possible at $6.9 Million but with Eli Apple being a loose cannon I might keep him.
As others mention  
David B. : 1/8/2018 5:20 pm : link
JPP is on the books at least one more year. JPP is not worth his contract, but if they got another pass rusher so they have 3 again, these guys would look a lot better.

Love OV when he's healthy.

These 2 aren't going anywhere  
Sy'56 : 1/8/2018 5:27 pm : link
Gettleman wants bodies at DE, multiple. Even if we think they are vastly overpaid, NYG needs them next year. What else are you going to do?

I fully expect both to be back and Gettleman to use one of their first 4 picks on a DE.
+1 what sy said  
idiotsavant : 1/8/2018 5:31 pm : link
.
is it the same  
Dankbeerman : 1/8/2018 5:32 pm : link
if we trade OV? Take the hit this year get a pick to help rebuild and free up money to resign Collins next year
RE: These 2 aren't going anywhere  
WillVAB : 1/8/2018 5:33 pm : link
In comment 13778741 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
Gettleman wants bodies at DE, multiple. Even if we think they are vastly overpaid, NYG needs them next year. What else are you going to do?

I fully expect both to be back and Gettleman to use one of their first 4 picks on a DE.


Yep. If you cut them, who are you overpaying in FA to replace them?
Huh??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/8/2018 5:52 pm : link
Quote:
Always are against the cap


Again - you want to be up against the cap. Being over or under is a mismanagement of funds.
It would be very expensive to cut either at this point  
Beer Man : 1/8/2018 6:00 pm : link
The 2018 dead cap hit for:
- JPP = $22,750,000
- OV = $12,000,000

Not to mention, who will play DE if you do?
Yeah we might not be up against the cap,  
Go Terps : 1/8/2018 6:39 pm : link
but we can't replace or get rid of these guys, either. We have to hope they both get better AND stay healthy. Vernon and JPP are cornerstone players because of those contracts.
Why are we cutting Vernon????  
djm : 1/8/2018 6:43 pm : link
You guys and this cap obsession...

Enjoy the offseason. For some of you it's better than the actual season.
Come on fella  
Peppers : 1/8/2018 6:48 pm : link
We want to cut players just to create holes and lots of dead cap?

OV isn't going anywhere. He does a lot that doesn't show up on the stat sheet.

JPP needs to be more consistent but we could be doing far worse.

They need depth behind them to give them rest then their quality of play will go up. Their usage is way too high.

Our DL needs depth and real LBs playing behind them. We'll see a totatlly different Defense with some quality LBs flying around, filling gaps, and making plays.
The cap matters  
Go Terps : 1/8/2018 6:49 pm : link
A guy getting paid as much as Vernon is going to play whether or not he deserves to and he's going to influence personnel decisions at his position.

I'll say it again, Vernon is a cornerstone player. That's a reason this was a 3-13 team.

Watching Calais Campbell all season has made me want to puke.
RE: The cap matters  
Peppers : 1/8/2018 6:57 pm : link
In comment 13778835 Go Terps said:
Quote:
A guy getting paid as much as Vernon is going to play whether or not he deserves to and he's going to influence personnel decisions at his position.

I'll say it again, Vernon is a cornerstone player. That's a reason this was a 3-13 team.

Watching Calais Campbell all season has made me want to puke.


Campbell is a future HOFer. That guy is an absolute monster as a player and an even better leader. Unreal what he's done.
In addition to all the good points here  
idiotsavant : 1/8/2018 7:05 pm : link
I will say this:

- add a snacks like additional DT, that is, a playmaker DT that is also big and stout at the point of attack, and:

With both on the line at the same time, your ends and backers suddenly get better.

Or, a giant true Nose Tackle.

Similarly, to let Harrison and Tomlinson make one gap plays without giving up overall gap integrity.

Same. DE and LB play will improve as will snacks sack count.
I'm not taking sides JPP vs. 'Vernon because, for one thing,  
Reese's Pieces : 1/8/2018 7:36 pm : link
I would probably be wrong.

But didn't the Giants' offense lead the league in 3 and out? And didn't JPP and Vernon take almost all the snaps in many games?

The are being much overpaid, but they are two starting quality defensive ends, who play well against the run.

Also, I don't know if the Giants are guilty of this, but they should be looking to get a pass rush any way they can. It doesn't have to be a mano to mano fight between the rusher and the blocker.

Collins and DRC are both good blitzers, quick to get into the backfield and then solid tacklers.

I don't recall the Giants running many twists or stunts (actually I don't know what the difference is between the two). Both JPP and Vernon are pretty quick for their size and if they can get into the defensive backfield by looping around their defensive tackle and running free past a surprised guard, that's fine with me.
RE: RE: JPP and OV aren't going anywhere  
Toth029 : 1/9/2018 9:40 am : link
In comment 13778721 djstat said:
Quote:
In comment 13778692 section125 said:


Quote:


this year. There are others that are likely gone that will save $10 to 12 against the cap.

Why don't we wait and see who the HC and DC are so they know what kind of defense they are playing. Likely a 4-3 but they might switch to 3-4.



Agreed my top 5 I'd cut are:

Marshall - $5.1 Million
Jerry - $2.5 Million
Harris - $2.45 Million
Wing - $1.02 Million
Armstrong - $1.25 Million

Those five total $12.32 Million

DRC is possible at $6.9 Million but with Eli Apple being a loose cannon I might keep him.
DRC is s trooper but not at that cap number. Apple isn't limiting him from staying, it will be Cockrell.
The faulty..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/9/2018 11:04 am : link
assumption is a player's worth vs. his cap number. Most capologists aren't too concerned about this. They are concerned about structuiring contracts that allow teams to cut players if they are sub-par without much dead money.

JPP and Vernon are starters. They aren't some washed up guys who are backups, and if you replace them in the FA pool, you'll more than likely have to overpay to do so.

Cap Management is about managing the ebb and flow of contracts so you aren't over the cap or amass a lot of dead money that prevents moves. This year it is not cap friendly to move JPP or Vernon - but it gets better in future years.

Trying to equate a player's performance to his cap number is inherently flawed because it looks at Player A vs. his cap allotment, when it should be instead about Pl;ayer B being cheaper and performing at a higher level meaning that dollars can be used elsewhere (with the further assumption that these additional signings will perform well).

I'm not even going to go into the fact that over the past 5 years it has been damn hard to get over the cap because of the league continually raising it and how easy it is to restructure contracts to push out to years where the cap will once again go up
To add further  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/9/2018 11:09 am : link
look at the angst over the money spent to the defense last year.

We ended up signing:
- A multiple Pro-Bowl DT
- A Pro-Bowl CB
- A Starting DE

All of whom are under 30 years old.

The contract that was actually far worse was Rhett ellison's because he's being paid like a starter but is a backup and a seldom used backup at that.

But it doesn't have as much impact to yell about him as it does to scream WE SPENT $200M DOLLARS!!!

Even though those dollars were spent wisely and has not prevented any further moves from being made.
RE: These 2 aren't going anywhere  
Milton : 1/9/2018 11:22 am : link
In comment 13778741 Sy'56 said:
Quote:

I fully expect both to be back and Gettleman to use one of their first 4 picks on a DE.
If the Giants don't like the QBs, I can see them going DE with their first pick, but if it's not Bradley Chubb in round one, I don't necessarily see the Giants taking a DE in rounds 2 through 4. It becomes much more a matter of grabbing BPA at any position of need and not so much about prioritizing one position over another. Passrushers are like QBs, if you don't get one in the first 50 picks, you're just throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. I'm still hopeful about Avery Moss.

p.s.-- I could easily see the Giants going something like...
1. QB Rosen
2. OL Price
3. RB Chubb
4. CB Toliver
4c. LB Nwosu
FMIC  
Go Terps : 1/9/2018 11:52 am : link
Come on...JPP's cap hit is three times that of Ellison's.

JPP's contract is horrific because ideally we would be able to cut him and we can't for two years.

And regarding Reese's spending orgy, don't forget that Vernon has underperformed and Jenkins is coming off a year during which he missed a game to suspension because he couldn't be bothered to come back from the bye on time. And I'd suggest you read Sy's game review of San Francisco and reconsider how you feel about Jenkins.
So Jenkins sucks now?  
UConn4523 : 1/9/2018 11:55 am : link
the team had a major issue this year and almost the entire roster under-performed. Cut everyone or chalk it up to a complete clusterfuck and move on with a clean slate?

Christ.
GT..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/9/2018 11:59 am : link
JPP's cap hit is three times Ellison's and he's produced at least that much more. That's a knock on Reese and Mac, not Ellison.

But you keep harping about the cost of players as if they are useless guys taking up cap room without the realization that if you don't have a replacement on a first contract, they will have a cap hit that is fairly high too.

Unless you take is that JPP and Vernon can easily be replaced by anyone, most of your commentary from a financial standpoint is way off base, and it is also dependent on finding very cost-effective replacements and then using that money efficiently at other positions.

I get you were upset about spending $200M - but that investment has actually been a net positive, as we have a minimum of 2 Pro Bowlers out of it, not to mention that JPP and Vernon aren't nearly as bad as you make them out to be.

And you make them out to be bad because you didn't like the $$ thrown at them and because JPP blew up his hand.

That doesn't change the analytics of it no matter how often you post your dislike for them.
The Cap situation has changed since the last CBA  
Reese's Pieces : 1/9/2018 3:27 pm : link
The league has said it would add at least 10 million to the cap space every year and in the last year it increased, I think, by 10 million, 10 million and 13 million.

THe league has told teams to expect an increase of 7-11 million this year.

I could be getting this wrong, but Eli counts for a whopping 22 million against the cap. If Eli goes, we have plenty of cap space?

And even if Eli stays another year, the Giants could "borrow" from the 2019 cap with the knowledge that Eli will be off the cap for sure in 2019.
RE: RE: These 2 aren't going anywhere  
LauderdaleMatty : 1/9/2018 6:03 pm : link
In comment 13779990 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13778741 Sy'56 said:


Quote:



I fully expect both to be back and Gettleman to use one of their first 4 picks on a DE.

If the Giants don't like the QBs, I can see them going DE with their first pick, but if it's not Bradley Chubb in round one, I don't necessarily see the Giants taking a DE in rounds 2 through 4. It becomes much more a matter of grabbing BPA at any position of need and not so much about prioritizing one position over another. Passrushers are like QBs, if you don't get one in the first 50 picks, you're just throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. I'm still hopeful about Avery Moss.

p.s.-- I could easily see the Giants going something like...
1. QB Rosen
2. OL Price
3. RB Chubb
4. CB Toliver
4c. LB Nwosu


Price may be gone by then. Top end OL are getting rarer and rarer. I know it's early and Nelson at 2 is probably too high but if FA guards are not getting 8-10 million per year we say guys like him who can start from day one rise higher than hat position as gone historically. Saw one mock w him around 20.

Giants can not miss w on another higher pick OL.
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