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PFF Grades 1st round picks - Engram 2nd worst

pjcas18 : 1/9/2018 12:39 pm
I don't get this, but I don't subscribe to PFF anymore.

I thought Engram had a really good year. Too many drops, and needs to block better, even as a receiving TE, but I liked what I saw.

Anyway, shared without further commentary, only OJ Howard was worse - per PFF.

FWIW, I think they also had a poor grade on Landon Collins as a rookie.

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Link  
robbieballs2003 : 1/9/2018 12:45 pm : link
?
Look on the bright side  
Bill in UT : 1/9/2018 12:47 pm : link
We could have made a worse TE pick in Rd. 1, lol
Yeah  
pjcas18 : 1/9/2018 12:47 pm : link
I saw a lot of positive in Engram, in fact, I'm not sure there was a better player in the offense than Engram this year.

Granted the offense was brutal, and being the best player in a brutal offense is a tallest midget award, but as a rookie TE with all the WR injuries, OL and RB issues, not sure many people could have hoped for more.
RE: Link  
pjcas18 : 1/9/2018 12:48 pm : link
In comment 13780130 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
?


PFF twitter, not sure how to link a tweet.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: When a site..  
OdellBeckhamJr : 1/9/2018 12:48 pm : link
In comment 13780119 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
says a QB who hardly played (Mahomes) has a better ranking than the #1 rookie TE, stats-wise, it is time to ignore that trash.

Trubinsky was better? David Njoku? C'mon.


you the reader, needs to understand the context, do you expect them just to leave it blank?

when you do things like drop passes, whiff blocks and other key, commit penalties its going to bring down your grade
PFF is garbage  
Stan in LA : 1/9/2018 12:51 pm : link
Haven't you folks gotten it yet?
When a QB..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/9/2018 12:52 pm : link
who played one game is better than a full-year starter who led all rookie TE's in stats, it's pretty useless to even do this exercise.

If you don't factor in inactivity, then give the guy a INC.

I guess John Ross is still better  
SirYesSir : 1/9/2018 12:53 pm : link
you know, because he's fast
IMO Engram  
mrvax : 1/9/2018 12:55 pm : link
was a very good pick for the Giants.
Fatman  
PaulN : 1/9/2018 12:58 pm : link
Is right, ignore it, it is trash, don't give it any airtime. I know I am pretty happy to have him on our team.
RE: RE: When a site..  
njm : 1/9/2018 12:58 pm : link
In comment 13780135 OdellBeckhamJr said:
Quote:
In comment 13780119 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


says a QB who hardly played (Mahomes) has a better ranking than the #1 rookie TE, stats-wise, it is time to ignore that trash.

Trubinsky was better? David Njoku? C'mon.



you the reader, needs to understand the context, do you expect them just to leave it blank?

when you do things like drop passes, whiff blocks and other key, commit penalties its going to bring down your grade


Engram and Howards receiving stats were considerably better than Njoku's, yet Njoku is rated not a little higher, but much higher than both of them. Unless he blocked like Howard Cross and didn't drop a pass it's absurd.
He grades very  
Pete in MD : 1/9/2018 12:58 pm : link
low in run blocking (35.4), which could make sense but don't see how they only gave him a 55.6 grade in receiving. Also surprising, pass blocking is his highest grade at 66.8.
Why..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/9/2018 12:59 pm : link
is it incumbent on the reader to understand the context when it doesn't make readily apparent sense??

Quote:
you the reader, needs to understand the context, do you expect them just to leave it blank?

when you do things like drop passes, whiff blocks and other key, commit penalties its going to bring down your grade


Mahomes had a better rating than DeShaun Watson too. What brought down his grade??

I'd ask a better question - what elevates one's grade? If Engram's grades don't get elevated for having a body of work that makes him the best stat-wise of the rookie TE's, what real purpose is it serving? DeShaun Watson was on track to be rookie of the year and a guy who played one game has a higher rating?
Few things  
BocaGiants91 : 1/9/2018 1:01 pm : link
This list is actually good for a few laughs. Mahomes who played in one game better grade than Deshaun Watson...yah right, Mike Williams who was hurt more than half the year better grade than Engram. Malik Hooker despite missing 9 games with injury got a 77.3.

John Ross better grade than Engram, reminder on John Ross, he was so terrible at WR this year they were going to switch him to Corner Back before they put him on IR. The whole list of grades isnít bad, but thereís enough stuff here to pick on that it undermines their credibility on the rest.
PFF is a crock  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/9/2018 1:02 pm : link
.
On the bright side, PFF  
Pete in MD : 1/9/2018 1:03 pm : link
gives Rhett Ellison the 8th best grade for a TE this season.
RE: Is that chart in numerical order?  
Beer Man : 1/9/2018 1:05 pm : link
In comment 13780108 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Because he's 23rd of 32.
Nope, its the order that the picks were selected
what the hell was Mahomes' grade based on?  
Greg from LI : 1/9/2018 1:06 pm : link
One game??

Taco Charlton had a higher grade than Engram and he barely played.
Sometimes as an analyst  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 1/9/2018 1:08 pm : link
You have to look at analytics and ask whether they make any sense at all. PFF routinely fails the common sense test. Football is a team game and context within a team and a season are important.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 1/9/2018 1:13 pm : link
An analytics guy I follow (he may have been paraphrasing Bill James) said that analytics are useful when 4/5 of the conclusions make sense, but one of the five are counter to the eye test/previous thought.

PFF's grades tend to fail that test.
RE: PFF is garbage  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/9/2018 1:34 pm : link
In comment 13780140 Stan in LA said:
Quote:
Haven't you folks gotten it yet?

Be careful - they might stop reading your posts, too.
I've  
Giantfootball025 : 1/9/2018 1:40 pm : link
hated PFF since it started. I'm just not a big analytic type guy. There's a lot more of a human aspect that goes into player contributions to a team. That's just my opinion anyway.
Corey Davis grades higher than Engram?  
Heisenberg : 1/9/2018 1:42 pm : link
lol
RE: He grades very  
Rong5611 : 1/9/2018 1:43 pm : link
Didn't he have a bunch of drops this year?

In comment 13780157 Pete in MD said:
Quote:
low in run blocking (35.4), which could make sense but don't see how they only gave him a 55.6 grade in receiving. Also surprising, pass blocking is his highest grade at 66.8.
Give me a guy who passes  
Breeze_94 : 1/9/2018 1:46 pm : link
the eye test over a guy who grades out well according to PFF any day of the week.

Engram will continue to improve as a blocker once he adds strength and improves his technique. At least he showed he is a willing blocker at this point in his career.

He also needs to cut down on the drops which really plagued him towards the end of the season.

PFF is not giving him enough credit for the match-up nightmare he proved to be though.
RE: Ryan Ramczyk  
arcarsenal : 1/9/2018 1:48 pm : link
In comment 13780123 madgiantscow009 said:
Quote:
Any thoughts on his season?


Very good rookie campaign. The Saints nailed that pick.
.  
arcarsenal : 1/9/2018 1:48 pm : link
Also, these ratings make absolutely no sense.
I admit it I used to subscribe to PFF  
pjcas18 : 1/9/2018 1:49 pm : link
I loved their snap count data, for whatever reason I had to know who played how many snaps, why type of play, etc. and that data was confirmed by NFL teams to be 99% accurate.

now that snap count data is available elsewhere (and free) I have no use for PFF and even when I paid them I only ever viewed their ratings as a one-opinion-data-point.

however....the annoying this is the majority of the time their ratings do in fact align with the eye test. the best QB's are usually Brady, Rodgers, Brees, etc. the best RB's are Gurley, Bell, Elliott, (for example), etc. the best WR's are Brown, Beckham, Jones, etc...they do pass the eye test most of the time.

it's the head scratching anomalies that generate the discussion and disdain.

How the F can they grade Engram so low with all the context around the Giants?

Does not make sense and if I had to pay to view these grades I'd never know about them since PFF hasn't and will never get a dime from me now that I have snap counts available elsewhere. I see no way at least half a dozen players could possibly be higher rated than Engram based on snaps, stats, and importance to their team alone.
They probably should  
phil in arizona : 1/9/2018 1:51 pm : link
have put an asterisk next to players that have had marginal playing time.

I wouldn't read too much into the Engram grade because he's kind of an outlier. He gets some snaps in the backfield, some split out, some in the slot, some in-line. His sample sizes are probably weird and he's most likely being judged against full time WRs in the slot/split out and full time TEs when in-line or in the backfield.

He had a promising year. PFF even mentioned this a few times. They even wrote an article that pointed out that he played more of a slot position in college and they gave him kudos for adjusting to more of an 'inline' position.

I'd really like to  
phil in arizona : 1/9/2018 1:54 pm : link
see what a better coordinator could do with Engram.
RE: When a site..  
FStubbs : 1/9/2018 1:54 pm : link
In comment 13780119 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
says a QB who hardly played (Mahomes) has a better ranking than the #1 rookie TE, stats-wise, it is time to ignore that trash.

Trubinsky was better? David Njoku? C'mon.


Trubisky and Mahomes being better than Deshaun Watson should have this chart laughed off the internet.
You shouldn't put everything in to their grades  
Sy'56 : 1/9/2018 2:10 pm : link
They are still trying to figure it out. And in some cases, they aren't close. I know scouts that laugh at their stuff.
That's ridiculous  
jeff57 : 1/9/2018 2:12 pm : link
Ross hardly played. How can he have a better rating?
I don't think the purpose  
allstarjim : 1/9/2018 2:14 pm : link
was to compare players like you would with a ranking. I think it's just information, how PFF rated them during the snaps they played.

I think if they had rated Engram as a WR instead of a TE, perhaps the rating would be much different. And perhaps they did rate him as a WR when he was in the slot or out wide. Not sure, but obviously with a player like Engram, his worth exceeds his positional rating as a blocker. He's an offensive weapon, first and foremost.
Thatís utterly ridiculous.....  
Simms11 : 1/9/2018 3:12 pm : link
and you canít compare these scores anyway. Patrick Mahomes played one freaking game and his scored a 79.9 and so that makes him better then Engram? EE was the best rookie TE in the class this year and also one of the top TEs in the league as far as production. He dropped some passes later in the year and his blocking was a work in progress, but to say he was 2nd worst is ridiculous!
RE: Ryan Ramczyk  
old man : 1/9/2018 3:48 pm : link
In comment 13780123 madgiantscow009 said:
Quote:
Any thoughts on his season?


He fit what they do there..hold the pocket long enough for the quick pass...and open a whole quickly so speedy back like Kamara zips through.
I remember some BBIers thinking he might be a second rounder...some a 3rd...and commenting on UW OL NFLers negatively.
Point being: find a guy that fits what you( plan to) do...coach em up..then. whatever. See: Seattle and late round starters.
Not sure after "42" Reese did that for TC.
PFF is good for a bunch of things  
gmen9892 : 1/9/2018 3:56 pm : link
While sucking at a bunch of others. Per PFF, they dinged Engram a ton for his drops and bad blocking.

That doesnt take into account that he is simply not a blocking TE. He is a great pass catcher and route runner. He makes a ton of plays and flashed a TON as a rookie TE.

Everyone knows he passes the eye test, so you should not really pay too much attention to these grades. What I hate about PFF is that they grade on such a black and white scale. A pass-catching TE is not going to be counted on to be a great blocker, a situational pass rusher is not going to be great at defending the run, etc.
If I buy a scale  
santacruzom : 1/9/2018 4:03 pm : link
And it tells me a styrofoam cup weighs more than a pineapple, I'm returning that scale as defective.

PFF ought to apply that practice here.
RE: I guess John Ross is still better  
djstat : 1/9/2018 5:09 pm : link
In comment 13780145 SirYesSir said:
Quote:
you know, because he's fast
Did he even play this year?
Do they factor  
XBRONX : 1/9/2018 5:45 pm : link
target%. I dont know how you factor whose fault a low target percent is, but Engram was at 55.7%
RE: RE: I guess John Ross is still better  
arcarsenal : 1/9/2018 5:55 pm : link
In comment 13780644 djstat said:
Quote:
In comment 13780145 SirYesSir said:


Quote:


you know, because he's fast

Did he even play this year?


Barely.

Started his season a few weeks in - took a pretty big shot on his first touch and lost a a fumble in the process, and didn't touch the ball again all year.

Complete non-factor.
.  
arcarsenal : 1/9/2018 5:59 pm : link
Mike Williams is another guy with a bafflingly higher "grade" than Engram.

He didn't see the field until a few weeks in, caught like 10 passes total all year and only started one game.

I must be mis-understanding how these grades are calculated otherwise they make no sense.

John Ross, like I just mentioned before, was a WR who didn't even catch a single pass this year. They used him on an end-around where he got blown up, lost a fumble, and never touched the ball again on offense all season. He barely even played. He was active for 3 games total.

Yet, he has a higher grade than Engram.

There's zero logic there.
PFF shouldn't have released this one  
adamg : 1/9/2018 7:12 pm : link
Shows how flawed their methodology is still. And they're ripping people off to pay for this shit.
Idiotic rankings  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/9/2018 7:27 pm : link
& an insult to people with eyes. PFF sucks. We all know that.
Pat Mahomes is ahead of Deshaun Watson.  
Mike from SI : 1/9/2018 7:43 pm : link
Ok.
.  
arcarsenal : 1/9/2018 9:39 pm : link
There has to be something I'm missing with this chart.

Jonathan Allen has one of the highest grades on it and he played 5 games before he suffered a season-ending injury.

Some of these guys literally played a quarter of a season or less and have higher grades than guys who actually played well and played the entire year.
.  
pjcas18 : 1/10/2018 9:36 am : link
Quote:

Ryan Smith
‏ @PFF_Smith
14h14 hours ago

Ryan Smith Retweeted Pro Football Focus

To clarify Evan Engram's grade:

Led all TEs in drops (11)
40th/43 TEs in drop rate (11/75 catchable passes)
72nd/74 TEs in run blocking (35.4)
Does he clarify..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/10/2018 9:41 am : link
how that places his grade below a player who didn't have a catch or make any contributions??

Basically, Engram's grade means that guys who didn't play at all performed better, as if Engram was a net negative (and a hefty negative to boot) to the team.

It really is indefensible.
Really ridiculous.  
Beezer : 1/10/2018 9:41 am : link
.
Agree.  
pjcas18 : 1/10/2018 9:43 am : link
indefensible.

Only thing is I don't know they're grading method any more. It used to be each play a player could get anywhere from -2 to +2 in single digit increments.

0 was a neutral play where the player had no positive or negative impact and the players grade was an accumulation of those plays.

I don't think that's the case any longer, guys like Mike Williams, John Ross, Mahomes, etc. can't possibly be rated higher than Engram if it was the case.

Anyway, I don't get too worked up over things like this, really shared because I wanted to make sure it wasn't just me who thought this was ludicrous.
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