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NFT: Knicks Chat: Mediocre team

DanMetroMan : 1/11/2018 7:40 am
They simply aren't talented enough to be anything more than a near .500 team. They were winning games when KP was playing like Dirk, they have been exposed.

-THjr getting closer, still no set date

-Hornacek is trash

-Knicks 3 point D is comical


Around the league-

Lou Williams what a season....50 and 7, he has to be in the all-star game, he's been one of the better stories of the season.

-Durant 40 and 4... 14-18!

-Don't even know who he is but Tyrone Wallace 22, 6 and 4

-DSJ 15, 6 and 3

-Adebayo 15 and 5

-Mitchell 16, 5 and 4

-Drummond 22, 20 and 5

-Prince 16, 5 and 4, nice young player
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Frank  
Pep22 : 1/11/2018 8:59 am : link
I want to play him more with Jack and off the ball more (not exclusively). I think he is overwhelmed right now as the lead guard. His ball handling just doesn't allow him to navigate himself into good shooting situations or create for others via drive/dish.

From everything I read  
GMEN46 : 1/11/2018 9:06 am : link
The trade market is non existent, most teams know they canít win so they are holding young assets and waiting it out. I donít think we are going to get much value for any of these guys. Unless they can get expiring or shorter duration contracts then these guys just arenít worth trading as much as I think they should be traded. Are you guys for trading Lee for expirings and a 2nd rd pick? I guess I would consider that. Do we want to dump oquinn to a contender for a late 2nd rounder? Not a lot of teams have cap room next year maybe itís a year where oquinn wonít get much more than 6-8 million per year. Could be worth keeping at that point. I would call Phoenix and see if they would take Kanter for Monroe expiring and one of the Miami 1st rounders.
RE: From everything I read  
Enzo : 1/11/2018 9:14 am : link
In comment 13782546 GMEN46 said:
Quote:
The trade market is non existent, most teams know they canít win so they are holding young assets and waiting it out. I donít think we are going to get much value for any of these guys. Unless they can get expiring or shorter duration contracts then these guys just arenít worth trading as much as I think they should be traded. Are you guys for trading Lee for expirings and a 2nd rd pick? I guess I would consider that. Do we want to dump oquinn to a contender for a late 2nd rounder? Not a lot of teams have cap room next year maybe itís a year where oquinn wonít get much more than 6-8 million per year. Could be worth keeping at that point. I would call Phoenix and see if they would take Kanter for Monroe expiring and one of the Miami 1st rounders.

why would the Suns do that?
KOQ  
Pep22 : 1/11/2018 9:18 am : link
I'd love to get Semi Ojeleye from Boston for him

I do think its a reasonable yield and also think he adds value to Boston's goal of surpassing CLE while not giving up major young assets (which Ainge holds "near and dear")
if Willy ends up being traded  
Pep22 : 1/11/2018 9:20 am : link
i.e. they plan to re-up KOQ, then Julius Randle is an interesting target
Pep  
DanMetroMan : 1/11/2018 9:34 am : link
I'm not being a jerk but I keep going back to "#2" in my head. How has the "development of kids" occured? Your threshold was literally "play Frank 20 minutes per night"? Because otherwise it hasn't happened, maybe it will but Dotson and Willy don't even play. If #2 was "play Frank a reasonable numbers of minutes" then I would agree.
We've lost 9 of our last 12.  
bceagle05 : 1/11/2018 9:37 am : link
That rumbling you hear is the second half tank arriving for battle. We need an athlete in the lottery - we're too freaking slow out there at every position.
I'll be more concerned if the kids are still on the bench after the  
Heisenberg : 1/11/2018 9:59 am : link
deadline. It's fair to play the older guys and try and dump them. But after the deadline, if we aren't trying to see what young guys we have might be NBA players I'll be mad. Trade Lee, OQuinn and maybe even Thomas (for a bag of doritos if necessary).

RE: I'll be more concerned if the kids are still on the bench after the  
DanMetroMan : 1/11/2018 10:04 am : link
In comment 13782676 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
deadline. It's fair to play the older guys and try and dump them. But after the deadline, if we aren't trying to see what young guys we have might be NBA players I'll be mad. Trade Lee, OQuinn and maybe even Thomas (for a bag of doritos if necessary).


That's fair... but how is "develop the kids" a "check" as of 1/11? Would you sign for this level of "development" for the entire season?
Knicks are actually better than I would  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 1/11/2018 10:16 am : link
Have expected. They need to learn how to close out games. Right now they don't have anyone whose game gets calmer in crunch time. Beasly for all he has shown does most of his brain lock stuff with 3-4 minutes to go. Last night the only guy who did anything smart at the end was Jack until he made a really awful play to end it. Not good if he has to be your finisher in those situations.
well  
djm : 1/11/2018 10:19 am : link
Frank is playing a good amount of minutes and of course KP has taken a step forward. It could be worse. KP could stuck in neutral or not really any better off last season and Frank could be a total train wreck out there--barely playing.

Gomez is the one negative but there's still half a season left. This season hasn't been great but I wouldn't call it a disaster or complete lack of progress. Let the whole season play out first. IF Gomez plays more second half and Frank gets a little bit more burn/progress under his belt, along with KP finishing strong, would that be so bad?

Halfway point.
RE: well  
DanMetroMan : 1/11/2018 10:22 am : link
In comment 13782737 djm said:
Quote:
Frank is playing a good amount of minutes and of course KP has taken a step forward. It could be worse. KP could stuck in neutral or not really any better off last season and Frank could be a total train wreck out there--barely playing.

Gomez is the one negative but there's still half a season left. This season hasn't been great but I wouldn't call it a disaster or complete lack of progress. Let the whole season play out first. IF Gomez plays more second half and Frank gets a little bit more burn/progress under his belt, along with KP finishing strong, would that be so bad?

Halfway point.


But how do you give "credit" for Hernangomez and Dotson potentially playing second half? It hasn't happened yet. If I showed you the minutes for Dotson/Hernangomez before the season not a single person on here would say "oh nice, Hornacek is developing the kids". I'm not even knocking Frank but he has NOT taken any steps forward offensively YET he's playing a reasonable amount but he looks roughly as he did when the season began (in fact his offense has regressed in recent games). You would honestly say "Hornacek has done a good job developing the young players" if I asked for some pluses on Hornacek's resume?
As  
DanMetroMan : 1/11/2018 10:24 am : link
much as I love KP... the numbers say he's had a moderate breakout but not some "wow" development. Rookie year .102 WS/48, this season .111.
RE: Pep  
Pep22 : 1/11/2018 10:26 am : link
In comment 13782594 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
I'm not being a jerk but I keep going back to "#2" in my head. How has the "development of kids" occured? Your threshold was literally "play Frank 20 minutes per night"? Because otherwise it hasn't happened, maybe it will but Dotson and Willy don't even play. If #2 was "play Frank a reasonable numbers of minutes" then I would agree.


Fair enough. I am guilty of forecasting a bit. I think KOQ gets moved which will free WH to play as we anticipated. I think Frank has shown enough to make us hopeful that he can be at least a solid player (lot of offensive work to do though). I see Buckets has the guy blocking Dotson which is fine.
I'm  
DanMetroMan : 1/11/2018 10:28 am : link
just saying if we are talking about a Hornacek scorecard... Frank has played a reasonable amount (hasn't shown any development offensively YET)

Willy (doesn't play)

Dotson doesn't play

So maybe we will sit here in April and go "man, Hornacek really did a good job, Frank improved offensively, Willy got burn, Dotson got burn" but right now I'd say outside of Frank playing even less there isn't "less" that Hornacek could be doing with the young players.
Perry  
DanMetroMan : 1/11/2018 10:29 am : link
has yet to make a poor move but keeping KOQ would be that.
RE: Perry  
nygiants16 : 1/11/2018 10:36 am : link
In comment 13782766 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
has yet to make a poor move but keeping KOQ would be that.


I feel like a trade is coming otherwise why not just release sessions already for burke
RE: RE: Perry  
Pep22 : 1/11/2018 10:45 am : link
In comment 13782777 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13782766 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


has yet to make a poor move but keeping KOQ would be that.



I feel like a trade is coming otherwise why not just release sessions already for burke


I agree.

I am also very interested in the Laker players that are seemingly on the trading block. It seems they are sure about Kuzma and Ingram, frustrated with Ball (but he's not going anywhere) and everybody else has a tenuous spot.
KP looked shot last night.  
Keith : 1/11/2018 10:59 am : link
Whether he's tired or something else is bothering him, he looks like he's at 50% out there. No legs. He's gonna have to do lots of lower body and core training this offseason.

Losses are ok at this point. If THJR is the reason we went from a decent team to a bad team, then we have bigger issues. Take it slow with THJR, rest KP a lot and try to trade everyone else for either assets and/or salary dumps.

We will end up somewhere around 8-10 worst team and hopefully we get lucky and can win the lottery like the Bulls did. If not, we should get a decent prospect to add to KP, Willy and Frank.
RE: Perry  
Keith : 1/11/2018 11:00 am : link
In comment 13782766 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
has yet to make a poor move but keeping KOQ would be that.


Timout. Isn't KOQ the best player on the Knicks?
You have to remember...  
Jan in DC : 1/11/2018 11:04 am : link
what your original expectations were coming into the season. I just wanted to see the Knicks progress and develop as a team. This team has overachieved so far and it's hard to argue that these results are disappointing, but the team is still light years beyond what I thought they'd be.
RE: You have to remember...  
DanMetroMan : 1/11/2018 11:08 am : link
In comment 13782849 Jan in DC said:
Quote:
what your original expectations were coming into the season. I just wanted to see the Knicks progress and develop as a team. This team has overachieved so far and it's hard to argue that these results are disappointing, but the team is still light years beyond what I thought they'd be.


People hate to hear it but W/L mean very little this season (especially if they miss the playoffs).

-Beasley (likely won't be back)
-KOQ (won't be back)
-Jack (won't be back)
-Sessions (won't be back)
-Dougie (may or may not be back)

I mean without Beasley I think it's safe to say the Knicks have at least 2-3 less wins. If they win games because KP/Frank/ThJr come together and play well then yes wins matter but Michael Beasley dropping 30 and carrying them to a win doesn't do a ton for for next years team. It's nothing to build on. In fact, a "solid" run of games from Willy and/or Dotson is more valuable than a "Beasley-win" or a "KOQ shuts down Boogie" win.
RE: You have to remember...  
Enzo : 1/11/2018 11:08 am : link
In comment 13782849 Jan in DC said:
Quote:
what your original expectations were coming into the season. I just wanted to see the Knicks progress and develop as a team. This team has overachieved so far and it's hard to argue that these results are disappointing, but the team is still light years beyond what I thought they'd be.

Who has "developed"? If they have overachieved it's been in large part because of contributions from players who have no future here - or are unlikely to have a future here.
RE: RE: You have to remember...  
DanMetroMan : 1/11/2018 11:11 am : link
In comment 13782857 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 13782849 Jan in DC said:


Quote:


what your original expectations were coming into the season. I just wanted to see the Knicks progress and develop as a team. This team has overachieved so far and it's hard to argue that these results are disappointing, but the team is still light years beyond what I thought they'd be.


Who has "developed"? If they have overachieved it's been in large part because of contributions from players who have no future here - or are unlikely to have a future here.


+10
i need to see the whole season play out first  
djm : 1/11/2018 11:12 am : link
..that's all. If the Knicks can deal off some of the vets for future chips while Frank, KP and hopefully Gomez finish strong, it would be a good year. This possible scenario isn't out of the question yet.
RE: As  
Sgrcts : 1/11/2018 11:16 am : link
In comment 13782750 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
much as I love KP... the numbers say he's had a moderate breakout but not some "wow" development. Rookie year .102 WS/48, this season .111.


There's no doubt in my mind KP will not truly break out until he is a full time 5, which won't happen with Hornacek because he simply lacks the imagination. I pretty much agree with Dan on everything. Hornacek is a problem for this team, he's just not a modern enough NBA coach to deal with how unique KP is.

Knicks had a lot of success earlier running KP/Frank combos, and that 100% should be something that you let happen for 75% of Franks minutes. Let them run a 2 man game over and over, results be damned.
i agree  
Carl in CT : 1/11/2018 11:21 am : link
the two man game would force Frenchy to shoot. He needs the reps.
KP needs to be better  
Enzo : 1/11/2018 11:21 am : link
and improve his decision making - but he's going to continue to struggle if the offense consists of him either battling for post position or trying to create his own shot off the dribble from 25 feet out.
RE: i need to see the whole season play out first  
DanMetroMan : 1/11/2018 11:24 am : link
In comment 13782867 djm said:
Quote:
..that's all. If the Knicks can deal off some of the vets for future chips while Frank, KP and hopefully Gomez finish strong, it would be a good year. This possible scenario isn't out of the question yet.


For sure, but I have a problem "assuming" this will happen unless it does.
RE: RE: As  
DanMetroMan : 1/11/2018 11:29 am : link
In comment 13782872 Sgrcts said:
Quote:
In comment 13782750 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


much as I love KP... the numbers say he's had a moderate breakout but not some "wow" development. Rookie year .102 WS/48, this season .111.



There's no doubt in my mind KP will not truly break out until he is a full time 5, which won't happen with Hornacek because he simply lacks the imagination. I pretty much agree with Dan on everything. Hornacek is a problem for this team, he's just not a modern enough NBA coach to deal with how unique KP is.

Knicks had a lot of success earlier running KP/Frank combos, and that 100% should be something that you let happen for 75% of Franks minutes. Let them run a 2 man game over and over, results be damned.


I'm not even particularly clear what Hornacek's strengths are. What would someone point to?

Where would you say "okay I have to admit Hornacek is really strong at..."? I'm genuinely curious. He's supposed to be an offensive minded coach, does anyone ever see any semblance of original/inventive offense?
yeah that's fair, Dan  
djm : 1/11/2018 11:33 am : link
anytime we assume anything good with the Knicks we end miserable.

I was going to start a thread about how you guys think the Knicks will handle the next 2-3 years and if and when they try and go for it? Let's assume they trade off one or two of these vets--and they re-sign Kanter on a relatively affordable 2-3 year deal. OK...so here we are 2 years from this very spot. They have an additional 2 young players from next 2 drafts...where do they go from there? Do they make that "big" move before 2 years out? Do they make it after? What is that move?

Kind of impossible to forecast these next 2-3 years but if you assume the Knicks just hold things down and maybe commit to only Kanter...I would think they have room for one big splash in 2-3 years. I guess we have to wait and see....but I wonder what they could do. Assuming Frank is a solid PG. Hardaway is a solid player. KP. Etc...
Trust the process.  
Keith : 1/11/2018 11:36 am : link
Knicks are in a good position to be a pretty good team in 2 years. We will find out if this new FO will have the vision to do the right thing or if ownership will continue to pressure them to win now.
I like that Hornacek  
Enzo : 1/11/2018 11:36 am : link
has them giving a good effort on defense most nights (we're ranked 15th) which is cause for celebration around here. Other than that, I can't point to anything else I like about him. Actually, I like that orange tie he wears. It's pretty sharp.
RE: RE: As  
Enzo : 1/11/2018 11:44 am : link
In comment 13782872 Sgrcts said:
Quote:
In comment 13782750 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


much as I love KP... the numbers say he's had a moderate breakout but not some "wow" development. Rookie year .102 WS/48, this season .111.



There's no doubt in my mind KP will not truly break out until he is a full time 5

agree. Unfortunately, the morons building the roster the last few years didn't see things that way - and they don't quite have the personnel to play him significant minutes there.
It seems to me that the Knicks expectations and the general  
JustaDiscussion : 1/11/2018 11:57 am : link
consensus of this board's expectations for the season are far different. They seem to want to win first and then development of young players other than KP and Frank seems to be farther down the line. I also think our critique's, mine included, can be a bit hyperbolic. At this point I personally would like to see a bit more stability in the organization, so I'd like to see if Hornacek can learn and grow with the team.
Someone mentioned running the Frank/KP pick and roll more often. If they do, I hope that KP focuses on rolling more. It seems to me that he often misses opportunities at the rim by picking and then fading back for a jump shot.
As for going forward, I hope the Knicks are more clever than I  
JustaDiscussion : 1/11/2018 12:12 pm : link
think they are, but I still doubt they make very many moves this year, if any. I think the biggest key will be Kanter. Unless something drastic happens the Knicks won't have max cap space until 2020. If they sacrifice that cap space for players like Kanter, I will be disappointed. On the other hand, if they do an about face and start trading away pieces, I personally wouldn't mind trying to keep Beasley with the mid level exception and seeing if Hicks has any hope of being an NBA talent.
Very  
DanMetroMan : 1/11/2018 12:18 pm : link
hard time seeing how people can both give Hornacek/The Knicks the benefit of the doubt AND be pro-keeping Kanter. Pretty clearly Hornacek does not believe Kanter's offense is SO good that his defense can be ignored. That's an issue.
Dan, I agree  
JustaDiscussion : 1/11/2018 12:34 pm : link
That's why I believe it would be disappointing if they re-signed Kanter when the time comes. Not only would it kill any available cap space, but also I agree with the poster above who thinks KP should play center. It seems to me that KP struggles with perimeter defense and with bigger players. I can imagine KP bulking up a bit to handle the bigger players, but I struggle to see him improving his perimeter defense. That being said, I'd rather see the Knicks thin out the center position so that KP can play more at that spot.
RE: Very  
Beezer : 1/11/2018 1:00 pm : link
In comment 13782987 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
hard time seeing how people can both give Hornacek/The Knicks the benefit of the doubt AND be pro-keeping Kanter. Pretty clearly Hornacek does not believe Kanter's offense is SO good that his defense can be ignored. That's an issue.


I really don't SEE where Kanter's defense is so awful. Maybe not the best. But he's a tough guy in there and doesn't back down.

The surprise for me is that Kanter can't seem to get into a Knicks game after the first few minutes of the fourth. Odd.
RE: RE: Very  
DanMetroMan : 1/11/2018 1:05 pm : link
In comment 13783072 Beezer said:
Quote:
In comment 13782987 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


hard time seeing how people can both give Hornacek/The Knicks the benefit of the doubt AND be pro-keeping Kanter. Pretty clearly Hornacek does not believe Kanter's offense is SO good that his defense can be ignored. That's an issue.



I really don't SEE where Kanter's defense is so awful. Maybe not the best. But he's a tough guy in there and doesn't back down.

The surprise for me is that Kanter can't seem to get into a Knicks game after the first few minutes of the fourth. Odd.


But the proof is in the pudding right? He's no longer player late in games and at times basically is benched for the 4th quarter (he himself has acknowledged this). So again I ask, how can people both be supportive of Hornacek AND of Kanter. Either Hornacek knows what he's doing and Kanter is THAT bad on defense or Hornacek doesn't know what he's doing.
maybe another HC could get more out of Kanter  
djm : 1/11/2018 1:15 pm : link
in these games down the stretch but I doubt it. Kanter is what he is. HE's a pretty valuable rebounder and low post junk scorer who tries but can't play good enough D to close out games. He can help the team win a lot of regular season games if the surrounding talent is in place. YOu would need that low post defender or two to swap out when needed.

Kanter can serve a purpose but you can't overpay. I don't think Horn has mis-handled Kanter here at all. Doesn't mean I like Horn that much.

If you don't want to bring back Kanter that's fine too. Just have to make sure the dollars Kanter would take here are spent wisely on a different player.
RE: RE: You have to remember...  
Jan in DC : 1/11/2018 1:47 pm : link
In comment 13782857 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 13782849 Jan in DC said:


Quote:


what your original expectations were coming into the season. I just wanted to see the Knicks progress and develop as a team. This team has overachieved so far and it's hard to argue that these results are disappointing, but the team is still light years beyond what I thought they'd be.


Who has "developed"? If they have overachieved it's been in large part because of contributions from players who have no future here - or are unlikely to have a future here.


I think that KP has obviously progressed. And I just used the word "develop" and not said players specifically because it's obvious that they've gone from a Melo iso team to developing a team dynamic.

I totally agree that the players that are not going to be here are dominating the playing time. Hopefully the front office recognizes this and makes some shrewd moves at the deadline to get us some younger assets.

My main point was that any increase in expectations now would have been mostly unfathomable at the beginning of the season, and if judged by that standard the season has been successful thus far, though it's disappointing to lose games like these Chicago games.
Hornacek  
Pete44 : 1/11/2018 3:40 pm : link
I agree with Dan, I have no idea what Hornacek is doing with the rotations. Also, the crunch time offense has Michael Beasley playing the role of Melo.

At this point, the young guys should be playing, because Frenchie will only get better with playing time.

Overall, this team is better off losing and moving higher in the draft.
A month ago everyone was set on what the Knicks should do.  
Keith : 1/11/2018 3:50 pm : link
Personally, I wanted to see how things unfolded as time goes on. When the Kanter trade happened, I wanted to move him right away. Then when he played really well, I could see the case for keeping him around. Now that we are in mid January, I don't see how we could keep him. He's young and a good player, but the timing just doesn't work with what we currently have. I don't see any justification for keeping him at this point. Like I said yesterday, maybe we have the opportunity to bring him back in 2 years when we have the cap space and we are more of a mature team.
I think KP has progressed  
Greg from LI : 1/11/2018 3:52 pm : link
What I don't think is that he's healthy, and I don't think he's been healthy for a while, which is concerning in its own way.
I honestly think that Kanter  
Jan in DC : 1/11/2018 4:18 pm : link
really helps KP in a way. He's sort of a bigger more physical defender. We've all seen KP look pretty fatigued some nights. I just am not sure he's got the stamina currently to bang with centers. So I think Kanter is sort of an ideal compliment to him, at least defensively.

But I do agree, we have a glut at center, and Kanter is going to get paid by SOMEONE. I'm not sure if it should be the Knicks. I go back and forth, depending on the night.
Knicks in terms of sports/time  
idiotsavant : 1/11/2018 4:52 pm : link
...it seems like forever:

Fan dissatisfaction, aggressive trades and moves in order to try for a 'quick fix'.

Result, team without a particular style, or identity.

Prospective coaches showed no respect, feels like a revolving door.

It takes time to erase that. Calm down people.

It may be true that Hornys vision doesn't match the team EXACTLY - right at the moment. But that doesn't give fans a reason to suddenly ditch him. You establish a respectable stability and improve from there.

Kantor/Porz respective and best rolls on this team will become more clear over time ....additional draft picks next year will help further rationalize the roster.
With regards to the young core gaining experience,  
JustaDiscussion : 1/11/2018 6:32 pm : link
what if the front office views the current Knicks situation similar to the Giants situation? There was little reason to play Davis Webb this year because the offensive talent was so poor that he couldn't learn or grow. Similarly, maybe the best way for KP and Frank to progress is to surround them with players with experience and some ability, thus giving them a better nba experience to learn from. Instead of assuming that selling off all of the veteran players is better for growth, it could also be argued that it's the exact opposite. I don't know, just a random thought.
Also.the current roster may be a weird puzzle  
idiotsavant : 1/11/2018 7:17 pm : link
Of course, some people see a weird puzzle and want to tip the table over then run out to Toys Are Us and buy a different, also unfinished, puzzle.

I say...your only a couple of pieces away. Patience.
Typo. You are  
idiotsavant : 1/11/2018 7:18 pm : link
Not your''
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