- Patricia made the best impression
- Shurmur made the biggest leap
- McDaniels just like everyone else no one knows what the Giants are thinking
- Wilks presented himself well but he has a far climb up the mountain with Mara & Tisch to convince them hes not McAdoo Jr
Giants 1st Round - (
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Shurmur's tenor as HC of the Browns is nothing like MacAdoo's or McDaniel's for that matter. He did a respectable job for having absolutely nothing at QB. The only reason he was canned was because the Hasleem's bought the team.
You can say Cleveland all you want, at the end of the day it is what it is.
- GM's traditionally survive coaches.
- Probably more due to Abram's but they were in very good cap shape which is a reflection more on GM then coach. (In reality, Reese hung Coughlin out to dry Coughlin's last year by not spending money and have a boat load to use the following year).
- Coughlin's age was against him. Reese's age worked for him.
- Coughlin didn't help by making some game/time management gaff's the first year.
It definitely is Mara's fault the piece meal approach of change.
- McAdoo as OC one year.
- Spags as DC the next.
- McAdoo replaces Coughlin but keeps a lot of assistants including probably having Sullivan forced on him as the OC.
Yeah. I'm not real confident with Mara but I really like Gettleman. He's the big boy in the room and I'm confident that his voice will be greater then Reese's in a HC selection.
Means he probably helped himself the most from his interview in terms of bumping himself up the rankings.
It means he impressed when they weren't expected to be impressed.
agreed. I love Mara....but he's made a few costly mistakes that have cost him some credibility. His instincts have been off a bit.
1) He mishandled the Josh Brown situation.
2) To me, he rubber stamped everything Reese has wanted to do the last 4-5 years, which has costed the Giants. Drafting guys like Flowers, all of those 3rd rounders, etc. Not addressing the OL appropriately.
And yes, technically, Reese should have been fired 2 years ago with Coughlin.
It was speculated somewhere yesterday that perhaps the Giants view him as a "tweener", somewhere in between a HC and a good coordinator. I would agree with that. There are a lot of those guys around the league.
Jim Schwartz
Todd Haley
Pettine
Norv Turner
And he should have been banging on Reese to bang on McAdoo to get Webb prepared to play earlier in the season.
But does Wilks like Gettleman? What does Wilks think about Gettleman the GM? None of us know; but I wonder.
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"made the biggest leap"
Means he probably helped himself the most from his interview in terms of bumping himself up the rankings.
I'll ask again. How does Art know these little tidbits?
Perhaps Coughlin should have gone (and I personally also felt it was time), but many of us felt the transition was half-assed at the time. They dumped Coughlin but kept virtually his entire coaching staff. The Eagles pressured Mara into hiring McAdoo (he even admitted that) and McAdoo was clearly the wrong hire. Did Mara force coaches on McAdoo too? (I would suspect yes and there have been whispers of interference with respect to Tom Quinn staying longer than he should). Ross had been here far too long. He had a horrible track record before coming to the Giants and did nothing to change that after he came here (I was also told recently by someone with good contacts in scouting circles that Ross had a reputation for being lazy).
As long as I've been a Giants fan, there was only one other time when so many critical decisions the franchise had to make at the same time came to a head - GM, coach, QB - and that was back in the 1970s when George Young was hired. IMO, this is the most critical time this franchise has faced in 40 years.
You can say Cleveland all you want, at the end of the day it is what it is.
Only good year Nick Foles ever had was with him. Made Donovan McNabb into a super bowl QB.
Don't want McDaniels. Patricia intriguing to me, but I still worry about BB assistants and what they actually do.
Meh on Shurmur, espceially if he insists on Keenum. He had his Ryan Fitzpatrick big year. Doubt he does it again.
Intrigued by Wilks, especially if true he would bring DeFillipo as OC, but I undertand the fear after the McAdoosh disaster.
HELL NO on Spags. As I said on another thread, if someone suggested SB winning DC Perry Fewell as HC, he would be roasted here and the board would go nuts.
That's simply not true. The Giants have never been in a significant under-spending situation in a long time. That year we had a lot of money because of expiring contracts and that the NFL significantly bumped the cap up, making more room for everyone - which is why several teams also went on spending sprees, the Jags being a notable one.
Perhaps Coughlin should have gone (and I personally also felt it was time), but many of us felt the transition was half-assed at the time. They dumped Coughlin but kept virtually his entire coaching staff. The Eagles pressured Mara into hiring McAdoo (he even admitted that) and McAdoo was clearly the wrong hire. Did Mara force coaches on McAdoo too? (I would suspect yes and there have been whispers of interference with respect to Tom Quinn staying longer than he should). Ross had been here far too long. He had a horrible track record before coming to the Giants and did nothing to change that after he came here (I was also told recently by someone with good contacts in scouting circles that Ross had a reputation for being lazy).
As long as I've been a Giants fan, there was only one other time when so many critical decisions the franchise had to make at the same time came to a head - GM, coach, QB - and that was back in the 1970s when George Young was hired. IMO, this is the most critical time this franchise has faced in 40 years.
I agree with you on Mara. This is his real first revamp. The biggest thing we can learn about him is his ability to learn from his mistakes and his ability to be humble. He's going to get killed if he hasn't learned.
I also thought it was time for Coughlin after 2015, but again Reese and Ross along with the coaching staff should have gone with him. Mara/Tisch just don't do wholesale changes, willy nilly. The apple didn't fall far from the tree vis a vie Wellington to John.
I think you are right and this hire has to be Gettleman's - cold hard business decision. Dave my need to convince Mara/Tisch, but that is his job to stay between toe owners and the team/coaches.
Perhaps Coughlin should have gone (and I personally also felt it was time), but many of us felt the transition was half-assed at the time. They dumped Coughlin but kept virtually his entire coaching staff. The Eagles pressured Mara into hiring McAdoo (he even admitted that) and McAdoo was clearly the wrong hire. Did Mara force coaches on McAdoo too? (I would suspect yes and there have been whispers of interference with respect to Tom Quinn staying longer than he should). Ross had been here far too long. He had a horrible track record before coming to the Giants and did nothing to change that after he came here (I was also told recently by someone with good contacts in scouting circles that Ross had a reputation for being lazy).
As long as I've been a Giants fan, there was only one other time when so many critical decisions the franchise had to make at the same time came to a head - GM, coach, QB - and that was back in the 1970s when George Young was hired. IMO, this is the most critical time this franchise has faced in 40 years.
This. Mara allowed Reese not only to survive, but to scapegoat Coughlin. Almost 100% of the TC staff and all of the Reese staff was kept in place. Like you, I had no problem with them saying it was time for TC to go, but allowing Reese and EVERYBODY ELSE to survive was ridiculous. Along with the 2013 "Super Bowl clock" fiasco, this is one of the 3 biggest things that have lead to this tipping point in franchise history. The 3rd was the 5 years of barren drafts from 2009-2013.
I've making the same '70s analogy here since mid season.
Exactly my sticking point with him. And it's been made more prevalent more recently. Add to it his absence at the office when the Eli/Geno shit went down, and ... I've lost some faith. I think I can get it back, but how often do people in Mara's position have great self-awareness, and a desire to really make tangible adjustments?
There’s 4 guys in the know. Why would any of them leak that kind of information ? Doesn’t make sense to me.
There’s 4 guys in the know. Why would any of them leak that kind of information ? Doesn’t make sense to me.
exactly....
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All good points. I just worry about his instincts. Not impressed so far. He sounds and looks good, but the Giants have botched the major decisions (to date) under his ownership. Got to call it like I see it.
Perhaps Coughlin should have gone (and I personally also felt it was time), but many of us felt the transition was half-assed at the time. They dumped Coughlin but kept virtually his entire coaching staff. The Eagles pressured Mara into hiring McAdoo (he even admitted that) and McAdoo was clearly the wrong hire. Did Mara force coaches on McAdoo too? (I would suspect yes and there have been whispers of interference with respect to Tom Quinn staying longer than he should). Ross had been here far too long. He had a horrible track record before coming to the Giants and did nothing to change that after he came here (I was also told recently by someone with good contacts in scouting circles that Ross had a reputation for being lazy).
As long as I've been a Giants fan, there was only one other time when so many critical decisions the franchise had to make at the same time came to a head - GM, coach, QB - and that was back in the 1970s when George Young was hired. IMO, this is the most critical time this franchise has faced in 40 years.
This. Mara allowed Reese not only to survive, but to scapegoat Coughlin. Almost 100% of the TC staff and all of the Reese staff was kept in place. Like you, I had no problem with them saying it was time for TC to go, but allowing Reese and EVERYBODY ELSE to survive was ridiculous. Along with the 2013 "Super Bowl clock" fiasco, this is one of the 3 biggest things that have lead to this tipping point in franchise history. The 3rd was the 5 years of barren drafts from 2009-2013.
I've making the same '70s analogy here since mid season.
Why do we care about the Super Bowl clock? It was put in to be a motivator and it's always looked at as some huge issue. I would be pissed if I wasn't playing the biggest game of the season on my home field.
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In reality, Reese hung Coughlin out to dry Coughlin's last year by not spending money and have a boat load to use the following year
That's simply not true. The Giants have never been in a significant under-spending situation in a long time. That year we had a lot of money because of expiring contracts and that the NFL significantly bumped the cap up, making more room for everyone - which is why several teams also went on spending sprees, the Jags being a notable one.
Thank you Fats. Reese obviously didn't do a stellar job here his last several seasons but no need to make shit up. What's funny is that it's possible that it was because of Coughlin's inability to let go of aging/non-performing players (Snee and Diehl for instance) that weren't playing up to the contracts they'd received as the reason why the team didn't have a lot of cap space. Which, as GM, Reese must also bear some responsibility as I've repeatedly said that I very much believe that very few decisions were made without both the GM and HC being on board with it.
Yes!! I've been saying this for months. I really am afraid the problem might be something that can't be changed so we'll have to wait to get lucky.
If you want to complain that Reese and Ross should've been shown the door along with Coughlin, fine, but Coughlin was as much a part of the problem as anyone during the losing stretch. The Giants were playing like a poorly coached team long before McAdoo took the reins and there are only so many times you can fire the coordinators without giving the guy who hired them the heave-ho as well. The thing is, Reese had very little to do with Coughlin's choice in coaches, but you can bet Coughlin had a helluva lot to do with the personnel choices that Reese's name was attached to (Coughlin doesn't camp out at the ten yard line during 40-day at the combine because he likes the attention).
He navigated 10-6 and 9-7 seasons into two Super Bowl wins, but his other nine seasons were characterized by heartbreaking collapses and inexcusable losses. If not for two Tony Romo overthrows, Coughlin would have one playoff victory to show for eleven seasons coaching Big Blue.
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In comment 13782749 Eric from BBI said:
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All good points. I just worry about his instincts. Not impressed so far. He sounds and looks good, but the Giants have botched the major decisions (to date) under his ownership. Got to call it like I see it.
Perhaps Coughlin should have gone (and I personally also felt it was time), but many of us felt the transition was half-assed at the time. They dumped Coughlin but kept virtually his entire coaching staff. The Eagles pressured Mara into hiring McAdoo (he even admitted that) and McAdoo was clearly the wrong hire. Did Mara force coaches on McAdoo too? (I would suspect yes and there have been whispers of interference with respect to Tom Quinn staying longer than he should). Ross had been here far too long. He had a horrible track record before coming to the Giants and did nothing to change that after he came here (I was also told recently by someone with good contacts in scouting circles that Ross had a reputation for being lazy).
As long as I've been a Giants fan, there was only one other time when so many critical decisions the franchise had to make at the same time came to a head - GM, coach, QB - and that was back in the 1970s when George Young was hired. IMO, this is the most critical time this franchise has faced in 40 years.
This. Mara allowed Reese not only to survive, but to scapegoat Coughlin. Almost 100% of the TC staff and all of the Reese staff was kept in place. Like you, I had no problem with them saying it was time for TC to go, but allowing Reese and EVERYBODY ELSE to survive was ridiculous. Along with the 2013 "Super Bowl clock" fiasco, this is one of the 3 biggest things that have lead to this tipping point in franchise history. The 3rd was the 5 years of barren drafts from 2009-2013.
I've making the same '70s analogy here since mid season.
Why do we care about the Super Bowl clock? It was put in to be a motivator and it's always looked at as some huge issue. I would be pissed if I wasn't playing the biggest game of the season on my home field.
Because that should have been when the rebuild started. It set them back another year. The core was on fumes already when they won in 2011. I understand giving that group a chance to repeat in 2012. It was obvious by the end of 2012 that they had serious issues and it was time to start a serious rebuild. Pretending to be in the SB hunt in 2013 was moronic.
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In comment 13782749 Eric from BBI said:
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All good points. I just worry about his instincts. Not impressed so far. He sounds and looks good, but the Giants have botched the major decisions (to date) under his ownership. Got to call it like I see it.
Perhaps Coughlin should have gone (and I personally also felt it was time), but many of us felt the transition was half-assed at the time. They dumped Coughlin but kept virtually his entire coaching staff. The Eagles pressured Mara into hiring McAdoo (he even admitted that) and McAdoo was clearly the wrong hire. Did Mara force coaches on McAdoo too? (I would suspect yes and there have been whispers of interference with respect to Tom Quinn staying longer than he should). Ross had been here far too long. He had a horrible track record before coming to the Giants and did nothing to change that after he came here (I was also told recently by someone with good contacts in scouting circles that Ross had a reputation for being lazy).
As long as I've been a Giants fan, there was only one other time when so many critical decisions the franchise had to make at the same time came to a head - GM, coach, QB - and that was back in the 1970s when George Young was hired. IMO, this is the most critical time this franchise has faced in 40 years.
This. Mara allowed Reese not only to survive, but to scapegoat Coughlin. Almost 100% of the TC staff and all of the Reese staff was kept in place. Like you, I had no problem with them saying it was time for TC to go, but allowing Reese and EVERYBODY ELSE to survive was ridiculous. Along with the 2013 "Super Bowl clock" fiasco, this is one of the 3 biggest things that have lead to this tipping point in franchise history. The 3rd was the 5 years of barren drafts from 2009-2013.
I've making the same '70s analogy here since mid season.
Why do we care about the Super Bowl clock? It was put in to be a motivator and it's always looked at as some huge issue. I would be pissed if I wasn't playing the biggest game of the season on my home field.
I was thinking the same thing. Don't understand that why that clock is being brought up as often as it has been... and anyway, again, does anyone really think it was put up without Coughlin's consent?
Bingo. You can't overreact because of similar backgrounds. Each person is different.
and he wasn't very good.
and he wasn't very good.
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worries me are Mara's instincts. He comes across as a really smart guy and he seems sincere. But I still can't get around the fact that when push came to shove, in his determination last year, Reese and Ross weren't the problem but Coughlin was. Now a lot of fans felt the same way, but he's supposed to know better, in fact, better than anyone.
I'm sure he does know better than anyone. We don't know what goes on in the war room. Maybe when it came down to contrasting opinions, Reese was proven right more often than Coughlin was.
If you want to complain that Reese and Ross should've been shown the door along with Coughlin, fine, but Coughlin was as much a part of the problem as anyone during the losing stretch. The Giants were playing like a poorly coached team long before McAdoo took the reins and there are only so many times you can fire the coordinators without giving the guy who hired them the heave-ho as well. The thing is, Reese had very little to do with Coughlin's choice in coaches, but you can bet Coughlin had a helluva lot to do with the personnel choices that Reese's name was attached to (Coughlin doesn't camp out at the ten yard line during 40-day at the combine because he likes the attention).
He navigated 10-6 and 9-7 seasons into two Super Bowl wins, but his other nine seasons were characterized by heartbreaking collapses and inexcusable losses. If not for two Tony Romo overthrows, Coughlin would have one playoff victory to show for eleven seasons coaching Big Blue.
yes, Yes and Yes AGAIN to the bold part!
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worries me are Mara's instincts. He comes across as a really smart guy and he seems sincere. But I still can't get around the fact that when push came to shove, in his determination last year, Reese and Ross weren't the problem but Coughlin was. Now a lot of fans felt the same way, but he's supposed to know better, in fact, better than anyone.
I'm sure he does know better than anyone. We don't know what goes on in the war room. Maybe when it came down to contrasting opinions, Reese was proven right more often than Coughlin was.
If you want to complain that Reese and Ross should've been shown the door along with Coughlin, fine, but Coughlin was as much a part of the problem as anyone during the losing stretch. The Giants were playing like a poorly coached team long before McAdoo took the reins and there are only so many times you can fire the coordinators without giving the guy who hired them the heave-ho as well. The thing is, Reese had very little to do with Coughlin's choice in coaches, but you can bet Coughlin had a helluva lot to do with the personnel choices that Reese's name was attached to (Coughlin doesn't camp out at the ten yard line during 40-day at the combine because he likes the attention).
He navigated 10-6 and 9-7 seasons into two Super Bowl wins, but his other nine seasons were characterized by heartbreaking collapses and inexcusable losses. If not for two Tony Romo overthrows, Coughlin would have one playoff victory to show for eleven seasons coaching Big Blue.
Ok, so now BBI has minimized our two SB victories into 2 overthrows by Romo? Lets forget about all the other playoff wins, the other 59.5 minutes of the Cowboys games (on the road by the way), and the SB game itself. Or what about some other passes earlier in the game that Romo was lucky on? Geez.
Linehan is skating on thin ice in Dallas.
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In comment 13782707 Eric from BBI said:
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worries me are Mara's instincts. He comes across as a really smart guy and he seems sincere. But I still can't get around the fact that when push came to shove, in his determination last year, Reese and Ross weren't the problem but Coughlin was. Now a lot of fans felt the same way, but he's supposed to know better, in fact, better than anyone.
I'm sure he does know better than anyone. We don't know what goes on in the war room. Maybe when it came down to contrasting opinions, Reese was proven right more often than Coughlin was.
If you want to complain that Reese and Ross should've been shown the door along with Coughlin, fine, but Coughlin was as much a part of the problem as anyone during the losing stretch. The Giants were playing like a poorly coached team long before McAdoo took the reins and there are only so many times you can fire the coordinators without giving the guy who hired them the heave-ho as well. The thing is, Reese had very little to do with Coughlin's choice in coaches, but you can bet Coughlin had a helluva lot to do with the personnel choices that Reese's name was attached to (Coughlin doesn't camp out at the ten yard line during 40-day at the combine because he likes the attention).
He navigated 10-6 and 9-7 seasons into two Super Bowl wins, but his other nine seasons were characterized by heartbreaking collapses and inexcusable losses. If not for two Tony Romo overthrows, Coughlin would have one playoff victory to show for eleven seasons coaching Big Blue.
yes, Yes and Yes AGAIN to the bold part!
I wanted to type something similar, but thought I would get roasted.
In the Prime of Eli's career we won 10 games 4 out of 12 seasons under Coughlin. That's when we had a ton of talent on the roster. It burned out fast at the end.
The whole chicken and the egg thing with Coughlin and Reese has got to stop. They both played equal parts into the disaster. There were reasons Coughlin's head was wanted more then one time before he won the first and second Super Bowl.
Reese got the pass last time, probably because he never had a chance to actually pick his own head coach. He inherited Coughlin, who at the time was on very thin ice.
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In comment 13782805 Milton said:
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In comment 13782707 Eric from BBI said:
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worries me are Mara's instincts. He comes across as a really smart guy and he seems sincere. But I still can't get around the fact that when push came to shove, in his determination last year, Reese and Ross weren't the problem but Coughlin was. Now a lot of fans felt the same way, but he's supposed to know better, in fact, better than anyone.
I'm sure he does know better than anyone. We don't know what goes on in the war room. Maybe when it came down to contrasting opinions, Reese was proven right more often than Coughlin was.
If you want to complain that Reese and Ross should've been shown the door along with Coughlin, fine, but Coughlin was as much a part of the problem as anyone during the losing stretch. The Giants were playing like a poorly coached team long before McAdoo took the reins and there are only so many times you can fire the coordinators without giving the guy who hired them the heave-ho as well. The thing is, Reese had very little to do with Coughlin's choice in coaches, but you can bet Coughlin had a helluva lot to do with the personnel choices that Reese's name was attached to (Coughlin doesn't camp out at the ten yard line during 40-day at the combine because he likes the attention).
He navigated 10-6 and 9-7 seasons into two Super Bowl wins, but his other nine seasons were characterized by heartbreaking collapses and inexcusable losses. If not for two Tony Romo overthrows, Coughlin would have one playoff victory to show for eleven seasons coaching Big Blue.
yes, Yes and Yes AGAIN to the bold part!
I wanted to type something similar, but thought I would get roasted.
In the Prime of Eli's career we won 10 games 4 out of 12 seasons under Coughlin. That's when we had a ton of talent on the roster. It burned out fast at the end.
The whole chicken and the egg thing with Coughlin and Reese has got to stop. They both played equal parts into the disaster. There were reasons Coughlin's head was wanted more then one time before he won the first and second Super Bowl.
Reese got the pass last time, probably because he never had a chance to actually pick his own head coach. He inherited Coughlin, who at the time was on very thin ice.
EXACTLY! And your last paragraph is precisely why I thought Reese should've stayed. Of course NOW, with hindsight, that was a the wrong move but it didn't appear to be the year after Coughlin left.
Perhaps Coughlin should have gone (and I personally also felt it was time), but many of us felt the transition was half-assed at the time. They dumped Coughlin but kept virtually his entire coaching staff. The Eagles pressured Mara into hiring McAdoo (he even admitted that) and McAdoo was clearly the wrong hire. Did Mara force coaches on McAdoo too? (I would suspect yes and there have been whispers of interference with respect to Tom Quinn staying longer than he should). Ross had been here far too long. He had a horrible track record before coming to the Giants and did nothing to change that after he came here (I was also told recently by someone with good contacts in scouting circles that Ross had a reputation for being lazy).
As long as I've been a Giants fan, there was only one other time when so many critical decisions the franchise had to make at the same time came to a head - GM, coach, QB - and that was back in the 1970s when George Young was hired. IMO, this is the most critical time this franchise has faced in 40 years.
I think Mara put to much trust into Jerry Resse and like being stuck in a bad marrigae didnt see it until to late. I am hoping at least he will make more calculated decisions going forward
The difference could be personality and humility in being able to adapt .... TC mellowed a bit ... as we saw Mac was inflexible and it did not pan out .... Hopefully the brass is not bringing the Bob "baggage" into this new pending "relationship" ...
I wanted to let Coughlin go as head coach, I never really thought seriously of him as GM, I also wanted to dump Reese, I never thought much of Reese. But, I did think they should keep McAdoo, so I know I was also wrong.
But as was pointed out, I am a fucking nobody, a fan, our owner is supposed to understand and know what is best for this team, and he obviously does not have a fucking clue. That is very concerning moving forward, you must understand, we won those last two championships under the old regime, the new regime had not taken full hold yet, Eli alone was not the new regime, the defensive and offensive lines were the old regime. The last Super Bowl win was a 9-7 season that we all conveniently want to write off and just say, but we won it all. Why though, Eli played great, the defensive line and in particular Justin Tuck played great. Sure there were parts of the new regime mixed in, the wide receivers which had a great playoff run, but after that last playoff run, this franchise under the new regime has been bad, and Mara leads the way in that.
And Gettleman is a great hire.
Link - ( New Window )
That being said - let's move on and hire the best coach possible to lead this team for the next 10-12 years - with or without Eli.
Mara's judgement came into question for me when he chose to tell the press that Jerrell Jernigan could play and implied they waited too long to put him on the field. Sample size was embarrasingly small to be saying that with such conviction.
Certainly an indictment of TC not allowing Reese/Ross's 'young ascending' players to grow. Barf.
Yes but my feel is that he put the blame on Coughlin, even before 2015, he hid behind him and then Macadoo was Resses pick to try and make knowing how he was going to attack FA with money in his pocket. He was looking for all the credit for the bounce back to prove he could get them right back in the playoffs. Then after his pick in Macadoo was failing he went all in on its Elis fault hoping to buy himself more time.
Mara should have fired everyone when Coughlin went. He somehow fell for Resse more then Coughlin.
Resse got the job thinking Tom was on his last leg and he could go get a coach after 2007. dont feel they were ever o the same page
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He helped bring his organization another two championships.
Yes but my feel is that he put the blame on Coughlin, even before 2015, he hid behind him and then Macadoo was Resses pick to try and make knowing how he was going to attack FA with money in his pocket. He was looking for all the credit for the bounce back to prove he could get them right back in the playoffs. Then after his pick in Macadoo was failing he went all in on its Elis fault hoping to buy himself more time.
Mara should have fired everyone when Coughlin went. He somehow fell for Resse more then Coughlin.
Resse got the job thinking Tom was on his last leg and he could go get a coach after 2007. dont feel they were ever o the same page
Wow... about the only thing I think I agree with is the first sentence in your second paragraph regarding Mara firing everyone when Coughlin left... and that's only using hindsight.
Other than that, you make A LOT of assumptions in your post. So many that I'm not sure I feel like using time and energy to post what I think you're wrong about to be honest. I'll just say that it's amazing to me how some have made Reese out to be this conniving, deceitful, diabolical man who had to 'hide' behind... 'blame'... and got jobs because Coughlin was supposedly on his last leg (as if he was content to be under Accorsi and in late 2006 thought to himself 'YES! Coughlin should be gone after this year and so NOW'S the time to make my move!').
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worries me are Mara's instincts. He comes across as a really smart guy and he seems sincere. But I still can't get around the fact that when push came to shove, in his determination last year, Reese and Ross weren't the problem but Coughlin was. Now a lot of fans felt the same way, but he's supposed to know better, in fact, better than anyone.
Mara's judgement came into question for me when he chose to tell the press that Jerrell Jernigan could play and implied they waited too long to put him on the field. Sample size was embarrasingly small to be saying that with such conviction.
Certainly an indictment of TC not allowing Reese/Ross's 'young ascending' players to grow. Barf.
good post.
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complain about a lot of things Reese has done. This isn't one of them:
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In reality, Reese hung Coughlin out to dry Coughlin's last year by not spending money and have a boat load to use the following year
That's simply not true. The Giants have never been in a significant under-spending situation in a long time. That year we had a lot of money because of expiring contracts and that the NFL significantly bumped the cap up, making more room for everyone - which is why several teams also went on spending sprees, the Jags being a notable one.
Thank you Fats. Reese obviously didn't do a stellar job here his last several seasons but no need to make shit up. What's funny is that it's possible that it was because of Coughlin's inability to let go of aging/non-performing players (Snee and Diehl for instance) that weren't playing up to the contracts they'd received as the reason why the team didn't have a lot of cap space. Which, as GM, Reese must also bear some responsibility as I've repeatedly said that I very much believe that very few decisions were made without both the GM and HC being on board with it.
Reese and his front office people sucked and Jawn and Steve Gump listened to his excuses and followed his pointing finger. Erroneous conclusions, stupid bunch of decisions based on erroneous conclusions and then bad execution on top of it. There's a reason this franchise is in position right behind the Cleveland Browns.
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In comment 13782759 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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complain about a lot of things Reese has done. This isn't one of them:
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In reality, Reese hung Coughlin out to dry Coughlin's last year by not spending money and have a boat load to use the following year
That's simply not true. The Giants have never been in a significant under-spending situation in a long time. That year we had a lot of money because of expiring contracts and that the NFL significantly bumped the cap up, making more room for everyone - which is why several teams also went on spending sprees, the Jags being a notable one.
Thank you Fats. Reese obviously didn't do a stellar job here his last several seasons but no need to make shit up. What's funny is that it's possible that it was because of Coughlin's inability to let go of aging/non-performing players (Snee and Diehl for instance) that weren't playing up to the contracts they'd received as the reason why the team didn't have a lot of cap space. Which, as GM, Reese must also bear some responsibility as I've repeatedly said that I very much believe that very few decisions were made without both the GM and HC being on board with it.
Funny? What alternatives did Reese provide: lousy draft picks, barren UDFA signings, reaches, tweenders, dumpster dives, has-beens and never was's. In fact, given how fast this franchise turned into the Hindenberg after changing out one guy, it is an open question as to whether that one guy was the only thing keeping the craft in the air at all.
Reese and his front office people sucked and Jawn and Steve Gump listened to his excuses and followed his pointing finger. Erroneous conclusions, stupid bunch of decisions based on erroneous conclusions and then bad execution on top of it. There's a reason this franchise is in position right behind the Cleveland Browns.
Yeah, yeah yeah.... I'll just repeat what I said again for you here:
"I've repeatedly said that I very much believe that very few decisions were made without both the GM and HC being on board with it."
You want to keep pinning all the failures on Reese and ownership and exonerate Coughlin and his role in those failures feel free. Doesn't make it true though.
Do you know that after Chris Snee, the only OL the Giants drafted over the next FOUR YEARS was Adam Koets?!! Then in 2009 they finally invest a premium pick and it's Will Beatty. Followed the next 3 drafts by Petrus, McCants, Moseley and Brewer. When they reached for Pugh, Richburg and Flowers out of desperation, they ALL played if they were healthy. JFC, Kevin Booth hung on for years because they had nobody else.
Gimme a break. He had no choice but to play those guys until they dropped. There were no replacements.
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In reality, Reese hung Coughlin out to dry Coughlin's last year by not spending money and have a boat load to use the following year
That's simply not true. The Giants have never been in a significant under-spending situation in a long time. That year we had a lot of money because of expiring contracts and that the NFL significantly bumped the cap up, making more room for everyone - which is why several teams also went on spending sprees, the Jags being a notable one.
In hindsight, it appears Reese simply wasn't up to the task of building a solid football team. Paralysis by no analysis, I suspected for a long time.
Reese was a good GM from a cap/contract standpoint, in general from a 1st/2nd round standpoint and from a demeanor standpoint.
His failing ultimately came to bear because he had position groups that were serially inept, either due to ignoring them, like the LB corps, or because his moves failed to address the shortcomings (the OL). Frankly, most GM's have these type of holes, and when they end up causing the team to fail, that's when they are let go.
Reese simply didn't continue to build the team successfully.
If true, that's another red flag in my book. I wonder how much a puppet Goodell is or how much of these self-destructive policies are his (and his staff's) ideas.
until they dropped. There were no replacements.
You're assuming that Coughlin wasn't in favor of playing them until they dropped. Didn't he have input on personnel? You really think he was banging a drum to have Son in Law replaced?
It was like the argument I used to have with people about Kuhn. Do you really think that, had Coughlin gone to Reese and said "Look, you have got to get me someone better than this guy. He's not cutting it but I have to play him because we have no one better", Reese would have just told him to go pound sand?
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In hindsight, it appears Reese simply wasn't up to the task of building a solid football team. Paralysis by no analysis, I suspected for a long time.
Reese was a good GM from a cap/contract standpoint, in general from a 1st/2nd round standpoint and from a demeanor standpoint.
His failing ultimately came to bear because he had position groups that were serially inept, either due to ignoring them, like the LB corps, or because his moves failed to address the shortcomings (the OL). Frankly, most GM's have these type of holes, and when they end up causing the team to fail, that's when they are let go.
Reese simply didn't continue to build the team successfully.
Knowing the had never really had to even concern himself with a QB issue/change, Reese's "shortcomings" are actually amplified. He focused extremely heavy on a few positions (WR, CB, DE) and was completely inept at staffing others (OL, TE, LB, Specials). The problem though is he ultimately still had to pay big free agent dollars to get some of our better players at his areas of focus (Vernon, Jenkins, Harris amongst others)
He really kind of stunk up the place...
Well yeah... we had a young, solid line for those next four years and it appears that the team didn't see a need to try and upgrade the depth behind them but for some small additions. Can't say I really blame them for that and I don't recall anyone bitching about it during that time on this site. By the way... the first premium pick they spent (Beatty) was a starting LT on a SB team as well. I also vividly remember a great number of posters on this very site being very excited to have added 'hidden gems' like McCants and Moseley so late in the draft. Don't remember too many people stating those were wasted picks/additions. Again... don't recall hearing too much bitchin when Pugh, Richburg and Flowers (well... maybe a lil with Flowers) were added either.
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Gimme a break. He had no choice but to play those guys
until they dropped. There were no replacements.
You're assuming that Coughlin wasn't in favor of playing them until they dropped. Didn't he have input on personnel? You really think he was banging a drum to have Son in Law replaced?
It was like the argument I used to have with people about Kuhn. Do you really think that, had Coughlin gone to Reese and said "Look, you have got to get me someone better than this guy. He's not cutting it but I have to play him because we have no one better", Reese would have just told him to go pound sand?
And this too!
I think you're wrong to believe that he didn't recognize that Reese and Ross were issues. The difference was the GM (and a young one at that) was always going to be on a different timeline than the older head coach. The Giants have had only 3 GMs in nearly 40 years... they're not interested in frequent turnover in that area. They gave Jerry a short leash and he lasted just 1+ more season.
As for Coughlin, any coach with the losing streaks he had during his final three seasons would've lost his job. If people can't understand that by now, I don't know what to say.
They made plenty of mistakes but the franchise has had abysmal injury luck for quite a long time now.
Steve Smith is 32
Manningham is 31
Cruz is 31
Wilson is 26
Heck, Jake Ballard is 30
Kenny Phillips is 31
Terrell Thomas is 33
We didn't have any of those players into their 30's.
In comment 13783116 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Gimme a break. He had no choice but to play those guys
until they dropped. There were no replacements.
You're assuming that Coughlin wasn't in favor of playing them until they dropped. Didn't he have input on personnel? You really think he was banging a drum to have Son in Law replaced?
It was like the argument I used to have with people about Kuhn. Do you really think that, had Coughlin gone to Reese and said "Look, you have got to get me someone better than this guy. He's not cutting it but I have to play him because we have no one better", Reese would have just told him to go pound sand?
In comment 13783116 Greg from LI said:
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In comment 13783078 Victor in CT said:
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Gimme a break. He had no choice but to play those guys
until they dropped. There were no replacements.
You're assuming that Coughlin wasn't in favor of playing them until they dropped. Didn't he have input on personnel? You really think he was banging a drum to have Son in Law replaced?
It was like the argument I used to have with people about Kuhn. Do you really think that, had Coughlin gone to Reese and said "Look, you have got to get me someone better than this guy. He's not cutting it but I have to play him because we have no one better", Reese would have just told him to go pound sand?
thank you. I'm sure they never wanted a TE either.
Oh , how could I have forgotten Adrien Robinson, The JPP of TEs.
Ugh
In comment 13783116 Greg from LI said:
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In comment 13783078 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
Gimme a break. He had no choice but to play those guys
until they dropped. There were no replacements.
You're assuming that Coughlin wasn't in favor of playing them until they dropped. Didn't he have input on personnel? You really think he was banging a drum to have Son in Law replaced?
It was like the argument I used to have with people about Kuhn. Do you really think that, had Coughlin gone to Reese and said "Look, you have got to get me someone better than this guy. He's not cutting it but I have to play him because we have no one better", Reese would have just told him to go pound sand?
He said he was assuming that Coughlin... not Gilbride... wasn't in favor of playing them until they dropped. Just because Gilbride felt a certain way (which, honestly, I'm not sure I completely believe) doesn't mean Coughlin did as well... and it's Coughlin's opinion that would carry the most weight.
Steve Smith is 32
Manningham is 31
Cruz is 31
Wilson is 26
Heck, Jake Ballard is 30
Kenny Phillips is 31
Terrell Thomas is 33
We didn't have any of those players into their 30's.
Injuries are part of the NFL. I get that. They will always happen. What doesn't seem to happen with as much frequency to other teams are sudden career-ending (or career-drastically-degrading in some cases) injuries. Players on other teams get hurt, have surgery, and generally come back and play for a while longer. So many of the best Giants get hurt....and never play again, or limp along for a little while at a much lower level of play.
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Nicks isn't yet 30
Steve Smith is 32
Manningham is 31
Cruz is 31
Wilson is 26
Heck, Jake Ballard is 30
Kenny Phillips is 31
Terrell Thomas is 33
We didn't have any of those players into their 30's.
Injuries are part of the NFL. I get that. They will always happen. What doesn't seem to happen with as much frequency to other teams are sudden career-ending (or career-drastically-degrading in some cases) injuries. Players on other teams get hurt, have surgery, and generally come back and play for a while longer. So many of the best Giants get hurt....and never play again, or limp along for a little while at a much lower level of play.
You can even add guys like Chad Jones and David Wilson to this list.
No favoritism towards his son-in-law right? [sarcasm off]
Steve Smith was not hurt in college. He was just undersized, and didn't have top end speed.
That's true....but a lot of those guys have long, productive careers anyway. Hell, Thomas Davis had the same injuries as T2, and he's STILL playing (and was in the league before T2 to boot).
And for Tuck being injured in college, he wasn't sidelined all that much as a pro.
Since when are smat people automatically great businessmen. Great at character assememts. And in Mara's Case that he's been around football all his life means pretty much nothing. He's mad some horrible
Mistakes bin the last few years.
Wellington was a great guy and a great owner but he made some horrible management mistakes too.
I don't know enough about who really is the best choice. My hope is that ownership who rushed to hire Gettleman despite the many posters here who wanted to pretend it was some long process let him pretty much make he choice.
You can't have it both ways. If Gettleman the guy please let hire make the Choice. It's obvious TC was not on the same page as Reese. I know that for a fact from the smart Dodge pick from his old ST Coach who told me TC didn't want him drafted or kept.
Now on the plus side all of the top choices seem to be all legit candidates. That they we so sold on McAdoo makes we hope and pray they are listening hard to their new GM.
Jesus Christ.
Since when are smat people automatically great businessmen. Great at character assememts. And in Mara's Case that he's been around football all his life means pretty much nothing. He's mad some horrible
Mistakes bin the last few years.
Wellington was a great guy and a great owner but he made some horrible management mistakes too.
I don't know enough about who really is the best choice. My hope is that ownership who rushed to hire Gettleman despite the many posters here who wanted to pretend it was some long process let him pretty much make he choice.
You can't have it both ways. If Gettleman the guy please let hire make the Choice. It's obvious TC was not on the same page as Reese. I know that for a fact from the smart Dodge pick from his old ST Coach who told me TC didn't want him drafted or kept.
Now on the plus side all of the top choices seem to be all legit candidates. That they we so sold on McAdoo makes we hope and pray they are listening hard to their new GM.
TC was upset over a 7th rd pick, that's your proof that they weren't on the same page for the more important picks like 1st and 2nd rounders. Come on!
On the other hand, Reese had 1 huge mistake over a period of time and that mistake was never fixed and pretty much killed this season. He never built an OL. He made assumptions that certain players players would step up and they didn't or they got hurt. If the team had a decent OL, not a great one but decent, this team, warts and all, could have gone to the playoffs. If an OL could have gotten a running game going, this team would score and the defense would not have would not have to get back on the field minutes after another 3 and out. The OL is the foundation of the team and without a foundation, everything crumbles. For me, Reese's draft and free agent signings were an indication that he was either unaware of how they were on thin ice or how stubborn he was.
How the hell do they draft Engram plus when there were good OL available in the draft and how do they only bring in Fluker as a free agent? We had a horrible OL and they draft Biz and sign Wheeler as a UFDA and with Fluker, that's supposed to make a difference? And, Reese was not helped by McAdoo who went with Hart as a starter with Fluker and Jones on the bench.
I have been concerned about Reese for a few seasons but I don't think he should have been fired when Coughlin was let go. But, he made assumptions about the OL that warranted his being let go. I'm assuming it was the Eli benching that triggered a midseason firing but he was a goner anyway.
On the other hand, Reese had 1 huge mistake over a period of time and that mistake was never fixed and pretty much killed this season. He never built an OL. He made assumptions that certain players players would step up and they didn't or they got hurt. If the team had a decent OL, not a great one but decent, this team, warts and all, could have gone to the playoffs. If an OL could have gotten a running game going, this team would score and the defense would not have would not have to get back on the field minutes after another 3 and out. The OL is the foundation of the team and without a foundation, everything crumbles. For me, Reese's draft and free agent signings were an indication that he was either unaware of how they were on thin ice or how stubborn he was.
How the hell do they draft Engram plus when there were good OL available in the draft and how do they only bring in Fluker as a free agent? We had a horrible OL and they draft Biz and sign Wheeler as a UFDA and with Fluker, that's supposed to make a difference? And, Reese was not helped by McAdoo who went with Hart as a starter with Fluker and Jones on the bench.
I have been concerned about Reese for a few seasons but I don't think he should have been fired when Coughlin was let go. But, he made assumptions about the OL that warranted his being let go. I'm assuming it was the Eli benching that triggered a midseason firing but he was a goner anyway.
Excellent post!
Mara was the one so enamored with hiring McAdoo. Stay out of it this time
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In comment 13783206 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Nicks isn't yet 30
Steve Smith is 32
Manningham is 31
Cruz is 31
Wilson is 26
Heck, Jake Ballard is 30
Kenny Phillips is 31
Terrell Thomas is 33
We didn't have any of those players into their 30's.
Injuries are part of the NFL. I get that. They will always happen. What doesn't seem to happen with as much frequency to other teams are sudden career-ending (or career-drastically-degrading in some cases) injuries. Players on other teams get hurt, have surgery, and generally come back and play for a while longer. So many of the best Giants get hurt....and never play again, or limp along for a little while at a much lower level of play.
You can even add guys like Chad Jones and David Wilson to this list.
In defense of Reese, I understand that McCadoo was not his first choice as HC. I think Mara was too lazy to do anything but promote the guy in the building alreadyu.
Yes, he was the last interview (on Wednesday).
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I thought he was on the list too.
Yes, he was the last interview (on Wednesday).
Thanks Eric, now I see in the article that he would be a "stunner" as the HC hire.
On the other hand, Reese had 1 huge mistake over a period of time and that mistake was never fixed and pretty much killed this season. He never built an OL. He made assumptions that certain players players would step up and they didn't or they got hurt. If the team had a decent OL, not a great one but decent, this team, warts and all, could have gone to the playoffs. If an OL could have gotten a running game going, this team would score and the defense would not have would not have to get back on the field minutes after another 3 and out. The OL is the foundation of the team and without a foundation, everything crumbles. For me, Reese's draft and free agent signings were an indication that he was either unaware of how they were on thin ice or how stubborn he was.
How the hell do they draft Engram plus when there were good OL available in the draft and how do they only bring in Fluker as a free agent? We had a horrible OL and they draft Biz and sign Wheeler as a UFDA and with Fluker, that's supposed to make a difference? And, Reese was not helped by McAdoo who went with Hart as a starter with Fluker and Jones on the bench.
I have been concerned about Reese for a few seasons but I don't think he should have been fired when Coughlin was let go. But, he made assumptions about the OL that warranted his being let go. I'm assuming it was the Eli benching that triggered a midseason firing but he was a goner anyway.
So yeah, comfort yourself as you sift through the ashes of Reese's Hindenberg. The very fact you think that a team with Preston Parker, Larry Donnell, Daniel Fells, Rashad Jennings, Stevie Brown, Jameel McClain, Cullen Jenkins, Chykie Brown, JD Walton and the rest of luminaries constituted a "good team" shows you really do not know your ass from a two base hit.
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There's no question Coughlin had to go. His last year coaching here was a horror show. I don't ever remember a good team losing a game the way we lost to Dallas opening day. And, there were other games during the year that we gave away. With that as an aside, I can see why they kept Reese at least that year. And, people conveniently forget that the year after Coughlin was fired, the team won 11 games and went to the playoffs. I understand alot of people will ignore that but it happened.
On the other hand, Reese had 1 huge mistake over a period of time and that mistake was never fixed and pretty much killed this season. He never built an OL. He made assumptions that certain players players would step up and they didn't or they got hurt. If the team had a decent OL, not a great one but decent, this team, warts and all, could have gone to the playoffs. If an OL could have gotten a running game going, this team would score and the defense would not have would not have to get back on the field minutes after another 3 and out. The OL is the foundation of the team and without a foundation, everything crumbles. For me, Reese's draft and free agent signings were an indication that he was either unaware of how they were on thin ice or how stubborn he was.
How the hell do they draft Engram plus when there were good OL available in the draft and how do they only bring in Fluker as a free agent? We had a horrible OL and they draft Biz and sign Wheeler as a UFDA and with Fluker, that's supposed to make a difference? And, Reese was not helped by McAdoo who went with Hart as a starter with Fluker and Jones on the bench.
I have been concerned about Reese for a few seasons but I don't think he should have been fired when Coughlin was let go. But, he made assumptions about the OL that warranted his being let go. I'm assuming it was the Eli benching that triggered a midseason firing but he was a goner anyway.
You can comfort yourself with those thoughts. They are wrong-headed as events (including a 200 million spend on free agency to rectify the for shit defense Reese put together) have clearly proved. Reese should have got the axe after the 2013 season when three lousy drafts in a row and bungled free agency left the team without a tight end, running back, wideouts or much else.
So yeah, comfort yourself as you sift through the ashes of Reese's Hindenberg. The very fact you think that a team with Preston Parker, Larry Donnell, Daniel Fells, Rashad Jennings, Stevie Brown, Jameel McClain, Cullen Jenkins, Chykie Brown, JD Walton and the rest of luminaries constituted a "good team" shows you really do not know your ass from a two base hit.
Why are you upset today? Have a snickers.
Mara was the one so enamored with hiring McAdoo. Stay out of it this time
This GM is the one pushing Wilks. I'm not sure how your statement fits the situation.
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In comment 13783465 Samiam said:
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There's no question Coughlin had to go. His last year coaching here was a horror show. I don't ever remember a good team losing a game the way we lost to Dallas opening day. And, there were other games during the year that we gave away. With that as an aside, I can see why they kept Reese at least that year. And, people conveniently forget that the year after Coughlin was fired, the team won 11 games and went to the playoffs. I understand alot of people will ignore that but it happened.
On the other hand, Reese had 1 huge mistake over a period of time and that mistake was never fixed and pretty much killed this season. He never built an OL. He made assumptions that certain players players would step up and they didn't or they got hurt. If the team had a decent OL, not a great one but decent, this team, warts and all, could have gone to the playoffs. If an OL could have gotten a running game going, this team would score and the defense would not have would not have to get back on the field minutes after another 3 and out. The OL is the foundation of the team and without a foundation, everything crumbles. For me, Reese's draft and free agent signings were an indication that he was either unaware of how they were on thin ice or how stubborn he was.
How the hell do they draft Engram plus when there were good OL available in the draft and how do they only bring in Fluker as a free agent? We had a horrible OL and they draft Biz and sign Wheeler as a UFDA and with Fluker, that's supposed to make a difference? And, Reese was not helped by McAdoo who went with Hart as a starter with Fluker and Jones on the bench.
I have been concerned about Reese for a few seasons but I don't think he should have been fired when Coughlin was let go. But, he made assumptions about the OL that warranted his being let go. I'm assuming it was the Eli benching that triggered a midseason firing but he was a goner anyway.
You can comfort yourself with those thoughts. They are wrong-headed as events (including a 200 million spend on free agency to rectify the for shit defense Reese put together) have clearly proved. Reese should have got the axe after the 2013 season when three lousy drafts in a row and bungled free agency left the team without a tight end, running back, wideouts or much else.
So yeah, comfort yourself as you sift through the ashes of Reese's Hindenberg. The very fact you think that a team with Preston Parker, Larry Donnell, Daniel Fells, Rashad Jennings, Stevie Brown, Jameel McClain, Cullen Jenkins, Chykie Brown, JD Walton and the rest of luminaries constituted a "good team" shows you really do not know your ass from a two base hit.
Why are you upset today? Have a snickers.
LOL! I thought about asking him ‘Why are you so angry?’ but wasn’t in the mood to feel the wrath myself.
Fruit of a poisonous tree after Chip Kelly.