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Value and Allen, Rosen and Darnold

gidiefor : Mod : 1/11/2018 10:37 pm
After watching a good deal of tape on all three of these guys and Webb too for comparison, Allen, Rosen and Darnold have a versatility factor and ability to throw that is on a very different level than Webb. Each of the three of them have sizzle that Webb just does not have:

Webb has a strange little hitch in his throwing motion and almost always lofts the ball -- it often comes down on target but he doesn't always reach the target. He is better at long throughs than short throws, his shorter throws don't have zip, and his throw seems a little awkward.

Rosen's throwing motion is smoother and he can throw the ball accurately with real authority and zip on short passes, he throws accurately on long passes, he spreads the ball around the field, his footwork is awesome, the thing that bothered me in his college games is that his ball throwing mostly seemed a little low to me, low enough that against NFL competition he gets intercepted or batted down more imo, but he seemed to find his mark even so, but many times just narrowly. I will say this, the ball gets in there and it gets there fast.

Allen moves really well in the pocket, can get away from trouble, and he throws a laser with accuracy, and great trajectory. He makes some terrific throws and they look fantastic too his throwing motion is very fluid, he also has a real cannon and is very accurate.

Darnold seems streaky, and he's inventive. He also throws a real laser with great accuracy. He moves around great and is elusive in the pocket, but his throwing motion is not as fluid as Allen and Rosen, he seems to flick it, and the ball gets out a beat quicker.

I thought that if I was making comparisons to them Allen is more Brett Favre, Darnold is more Elway/Wilson, and Rosen is more Eli Manning in style. Webb is just not in this league at all.

Thing is that each these three guys do look like the real deal and that they have great value. A blue chip QB prospect has to be a greater value than a position player, even one as terrific as Barkley is, and I think Barkley is an extremely good player, I just don't see how he has more value than a great QB prospect. Unless a team is going to knock the Giants socks off with incredible value, I just don't think they will be getting value at number 2 if they aren't picking one of these three QBs.
Thanks for the breakdown  
BigBlueHens : 1/11/2018 10:40 pm : link
If they can perform like Farve, Elway, and Eli then we will have no problems!
Excellent write up gidi  
Jay on the Island : 1/11/2018 10:41 pm : link
I agree with basically everything you said.
I bookmarked this thread. Will come in handy.  
Boy Cord : 1/11/2018 10:48 pm : link
Instead of popping a Viagra, all I need to do is read this.
Agree.  
redwhiteandbigblue : 1/11/2018 10:48 pm : link
Those that don't see a franchise potential QB in this draft must be over or under thinking this. There are at least 3-4 potential franchise QB's in the draft. Picking out flaws is easy. You think Eli or Rothlesberger or Rivers didn't have flaws coming out of college? This is the best QB draft since 2004.
Nice gidie  
Sy'56 : 1/11/2018 11:04 pm : link
Agree on a lot of points.
i'd take Elway over Farve or Eli  
gtt350 : 1/11/2018 11:27 pm : link
.
Very well said  
lax counsel : 1/11/2018 11:29 pm : link
I've written about this on other threads. I think you've articulated the distinctions between Webb and Darnold/Rosen. I'll also add that Webbs accurately on intermediate and longer routes is very suspect. I can't speak much to Allen, I haven't watched him play enough. Web isn't a franchise qb, but one of the other three might be.
With all due respect to your opinions, I think you would agree it is  
wgenesis123 : 1/11/2018 11:46 pm : link
the opinion of DG that matters. If DG does see it as you do, I would agree the Giants go QB at pick 2. If he does not like the QB's at pick 2, I still don't see Barkley as a good option for the Giants. This draft is deep in running backs. I see trading down as the second option after QB at pick 2. You can get extra picks to start building an o-line and take a very good back in round 2 or 3. Running backs tend to produce more with a decent o-line that helps to create the threat of a passing game and opens holes to run through. If the QB's are as deep as you think, they may still be able to get a QB in round one after trading down. This is very risky but the potential reward may be greater. It will be interesting to see how aggressive DG is in the draft
Who is gidiefor.? And why should we value his/her opinions?  
NYRiese : 1/11/2018 11:56 pm : link
How many years has he/she been an NFL talent scout?
I kind of want Allen  
bradshaw44 : 1/12/2018 12:05 am : link
He wasn’t even on my radar originally, but I think he’s the Ben of the group. If we are calling these 3 Eli, Phil and Ben. And I kind of want Ben this go around.
Here is why....  
Zepp : 1/12/2018 12:14 am : link
Rosen has been compared way to often to Jay Cutler. Cutler also throws a pretty ball, has a strong arm and a lot of the physical qualities that you want in a QB. But do they have it between the ears? We've been spoiled with a guy like Eli who is so level headed and works hard at the game. If a QB prospect doesn't have those qualities then he's not going to be good no matter how good his physical attributes are.

I like Darnold. Don't like Rosen at all. On top of that he has concussion history. Don't need a concussion prone Jay Cutler.

No thanks...safe bet...draft Barkley and try to win.
It seems the G-men are likely to land a  
DonQuixote : 1/12/2018 12:15 am : link
really good QB prospect.

From what I see, the Rosen injuries are the biggest red flag. It is nice to be at #2 when there are more than two choices.
I can't help but think moving back to 4 to allow the  
bigbluescot : 1/12/2018 5:18 am : link
Browns to select Barkley and their choice of QB would be beneficial. You run the danger of someone coming up to 3 and taking a QB, but fundamentally if you can swing a low cost trade with the Browns it would maximize value.

Certainly if you work out Allen is your guy it's something to explore. Maybe the Browns don't do it, or the Browns want to move to 3 to ensure that Barkley is there.
But the question is those three versus wherever  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 1/12/2018 7:10 am : link
Webb is now, not his college tape. Hard to know how much changes to footwork have impacted everything else.
RE: Here is why....  
Sy'56 : 1/12/2018 7:18 am : link
In comment 13784146 Zepp said:
Quote:
Rosen has been compared way to often to Jay Cutler. Cutler also throws a pretty ball, has a strong arm and a lot of the physical qualities that you want in a QB. But do they have it between the ears? We've been spoiled with a guy like Eli who is so level headed and works hard at the game. If a QB prospect doesn't have those qualities then he's not going to be good no matter how good his physical attributes are.

I like Darnold. Don't like Rosen at all. On top of that he has concussion history. Don't need a concussion prone Jay Cutler.

No thanks...safe bet...draft Barkley and try to win.


Rosen is extremely intelligent. There is zero comparison to Cutler there.
...  
Mdgiantsfan : 1/12/2018 7:27 am : link
can a 56% completion rate justify a QB as being accurate? I know Allen is not playing with SEC type players, but that completion rate is troublesome. Especially in today’s college football offenses. I like the measureables though.
Hey, Sy...  
Seventh Spiel : 1/12/2018 7:30 am : link
You said you agree with Gidie on a lot of points. What do you disagree about?
RE: RE: Here is why....  
Zepp : 1/12/2018 7:31 am : link
In comment 13784211 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13784146 Zepp said:


Quote:


Rosen has been compared way to often to Jay Cutler. Cutler also throws a pretty ball, has a strong arm and a lot of the physical qualities that you want in a QB. But do they have it between the ears? We've been spoiled with a guy like Eli who is so level headed and works hard at the game. If a QB prospect doesn't have those qualities then he's not going to be good no matter how good his physical attributes are.

I like Darnold. Don't like Rosen at all. On top of that he has concussion history. Don't need a concussion prone Jay Cutler.

No thanks...safe bet...draft Barkley and try to win.



Rosen is extremely intelligent. There is zero comparison to Cutler there.



He might be and I'm sure Cutler is intelligent its their personality thats an issue. And several have described Rosen as immature. We don't need that not in a market like NY. We have been spoiled by a guy like Eli. Not every QB prosepect will have his temperment and that is almost as important if not more than your physical abilities.
At  
AcidTest : 1/12/2018 7:51 am : link
this point, Webb's college tape isn't very relevant because he's been in an NFL camp for a year. A lot of the problems you cite may have been fixed. People also forget that 60-65% of Webb's passes in college were within 10 yards of the LOS. That wasn't his fault. It was a function of the west coast system he played in at Berkley. If Webb was inaccurate at the second level in college, it may have been because the system he was in didn't require him to make many of those throws.

Rosen has an injury history with concussions that may moot his talent.

Darnold was erratic. He also has a loop in his throwing motion, stares down receivers, and thew a lot of INTs.

Allen is raw., and did not play well against better competition. But he has the highest upside, so I'd take him if forced to pick a QB at #2.

Remember the Giants could decide Webb isn't the answer and still not take a QB at #2.
People  
AcidTest : 1/12/2018 8:01 am : link
are understandably overthinking this whole situation. We have the #2 pick, which thankfully doesn't happen often, so there is a lot of attention. Many QBs are also eligible, and Eli is aging.

But assuming Cleveland takes a QB, there are really only two scenarios:

(1) Cleveland takes Darnold. That leaves the Giants with Rosen or Allen. For different reasons, neither is worth the #2 pick. I'd probably trade down.

(2) Cleveland takes Allen. That leaves the Giants with Rosen or Darnold. I'd still probably prefer to trade down, but Darnold is defensible. Rosen's injury history is troublesome.
I ve believed  
joeinpa : 1/12/2018 8:04 am : link
From the start that the Giants like all three of Rosen, Darnold, Allen, and will be selecting one

Building for next season and hoping Webb is the answer is a move an impatient fan would make, or maybe someone who just doesn't want to see Eli replaced.
RE: People  
Zepp : 1/12/2018 8:09 am : link
In comment 13784231 AcidTest said:
Quote:
are understandably overthinking this whole situation. We have the #2 pick, which thankfully doesn't happen often, so there is a lot of attention. Many QBs are also eligible, and Eli is aging.

But assuming Cleveland takes a QB, there are really only two scenarios:

(1) Cleveland takes Darnold. That leaves the Giants with Rosen or Allen. For different reasons, neither is worth the #2 pick. I'd probably trade down.

(2) Cleveland takes Allen. That leaves the Giants with Rosen or Darnold. I'd still probably prefer to trade down, but Darnold is defensible. Rosen's injury history is troublesome.


A third option is drafting Barkley and try to win now with a roster that is one year removed from going 11-5 and with contracts that you just can't get out of.
Josh Allen Intrigues Me...  
Jim in Tampa : 1/12/2018 8:09 am : link
But if the OP looked at "tape" of Allen and got the impression that Allen "throws a laser with accuracy" then he OP have been watching Allen's YouTube highlights.

The knock on Allen is that he's not very accurate. In two years as a starting QB Allen's completion percentage was 56.0% (2016) and 56.3% (2017).

I'm not saying there isn't an explanation for that low a percentage rate or that Allen can't improve it with better coaching at the next level...but I don't know how you look at his body of work and describe Allen as an accurate passer at this point.
RE: People  
Jim in Tampa : 1/12/2018 8:17 am : link
In comment 13784231 AcidTest said:
Quote:
are understandably overthinking this whole situation. We have the #2 pick, which thankfully doesn't happen often, so there is a lot of attention. Many QBs are also eligible, and Eli is aging.

But assuming Cleveland takes a QB, there are really only two scenarios:

(1) Cleveland takes Darnold. That leaves the Giants with Rosen or Allen. For different reasons, neither is worth the #2 pick. I'd probably trade down.

(2) Cleveland takes Allen. That leaves the Giants with Rosen or Darnold. I'd still probably prefer to trade down, but Darnold is defensible. Rosen's injury history is troublesome.


I'm not trying to single you out, but can you think of any recent Giants' draft when you haven't wanted them to trade down?

Maybe I'm confusing you with another poster, but it seems like you ALWAYS advocate trading down for more picks, regardless of the situation.
Gidiefor - Can you look at Mayfield?  
Rong5611 : 1/12/2018 8:18 am : link
Wondering how he would stack up to these guys?
RE: RE: People  
AcidTest : 1/12/2018 8:24 am : link
In comment 13784237 Zepp said:
Quote:
In comment 13784231 AcidTest said:


Quote:


are understandably overthinking this whole situation. We have the #2 pick, which thankfully doesn't happen often, so there is a lot of attention. Many QBs are also eligible, and Eli is aging.

But assuming Cleveland takes a QB, there are really only two scenarios:

(1) Cleveland takes Darnold. That leaves the Giants with Rosen or Allen. For different reasons, neither is worth the #2 pick. I'd probably trade down.

(2) Cleveland takes Allen. That leaves the Giants with Rosen or Darnold. I'd still probably prefer to trade down, but Darnold is defensible. Rosen's injury history is troublesome.



A third option is drafting Barkley and try to win now with a roster that is one year removed from going 11-5 and with contracts that you just can't get out of.


Yes, Barkely is a third option. I'd still probably trade down, but would be fine with him.
good stuff gidie. Webb is a project.  
Victor in CT : 1/12/2018 9:00 am : link
I have a feeling they take Barkley. Just doesn't seem like any of the QBs are sure things.
RE: good stuff gidie. Webb is a project.  
section125 : 1/12/2018 9:23 am : link
In comment 13784322 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
I have a feeling they take Barkley. Just doesn't seem like any of the QBs are sure things.


And neither is Barkley. Why take him at #2 when you can likely get similar ability in the 2nd round from Guice, Chubb, and Michel. There are others.

The draft is not about this year, it is about the future. Even the most ardent Eli fan knows he has one maybe two years left.
Kinda breezed through the other comments  
gmen9892 : 1/12/2018 9:35 am : link
But from everything Ive read and heard, Allen has bad accuracy. Coaches have said that the one thing that you cant teach and doesnt change post college is accuracy. That scares me off or Allen.

As for Rosen and Darnold, neither is without risk or downside, but I wouldnt be upset if we drafted either of them. It really depends on who is the coach and who the Offensive Coordinator.
RE: RE: good stuff gidie. Webb is a project.  
Zepp : 1/12/2018 9:49 am : link
In comment 13784367 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13784322 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


I have a feeling they take Barkley. Just doesn't seem like any of the QBs are sure things.



And neither is Barkley. Why take him at #2 when you can likely get similar ability in the 2nd round from Guice, Chubb, and Michel. There are others.

The draft is not about this year, it is about the future. Even the most ardent Eli fan knows he has one maybe two years left.


Uhhhh no you cant get a guy of Barkleys value later in the draft. Barkley is probably going to be the best player of this draft, a dynamic special player. You most likely wont find that later in the draft.

The draft does NOT have to be about the future. We still have guys like Eli and on defense that are under contracts that we just can't get out of and are 1 year removed from going 11-5. The goal is to win is it not? Add Barkley to an upgraded oline and this team becomes a playoff contender......G U A R A N T E E D!
Josh Allen  
armstead98 : 1/12/2018 9:57 am : link
Quote:
Allen moves really well in the pocket, can get away from trouble, and he throws a laser with accuracy, and great trajectory.


A lot of nice points but disagree with this one. Allen's weakness is that he doesn't have the NFL pocket presence, he's too quick to just race out to his right and he misses reads as a result. See the video breakdown in the link for some examples

Some argue it's because his line is bad, which may be partially true, but it's definitely something he has to improve or he'll fail in the NFL.

Agree he has the best arm though.
Allen in the Pocket - ( New Window )
I thought that Rosen  
cjac : 1/12/2018 9:59 am : link
looked a lot like Eli in pocket as well. He really looks like a younger version of him. The thing that concerns me about Rosen is his injury history. Also him sitting out the bowl game bothers me too.
Well thats not good..  
Zepp : 1/12/2018 10:00 am : link
Cuz guess what? Our line is bad and many times in the NFL he will face tons of pressure. That was actually one of the things that drew Accorsi to Eli was that he played on a lesser team in Mississippi and was able to elevate the teams play.
These last few posts cover just about every uncertainty out there  
DonQuixote : 1/12/2018 10:10 am : link
Rosen has a history of injury.

Allen may have accuracy issues.

Barkley is a generational player, or, RB class is deep and he not worth a premium pick.

The Giants need a franchise QB to rebuild around.

The Giants are close and only need a stud RB and OL upgrades.

As a fan, I have no idea which of these are true, and I respect all these opinions. My view is that the Giants need to draft a QB, and among the blue chip prospects I am most concerned about Rosen's injuries and Mayfield off the field.

I do worry about trading down and resolving the QB issue later...if we become a mediocre team, then we will just have to trade up later.

Draft Darnold or Allen, or, draft Barkley and avoid the complete rebuild. Don't trade down...
Allen's accuracy issues are a bit overblown  
montanagiant : 1/12/2018 11:18 am : link
He has a 56.2% completion ratio
Darnold is at 64%

The other factors to take into account is Wyoming was all Allen. They had no other skill players on that Offense in 2017 and had only one skill player drafted from 2016 (Hill RB 5th rd). Both of his starting WR's from 2016 graduated. There is zero talent besides Allen on that team.

Darnold has the #4 rated RB in the Draft in Jones and a possible 1st rd pick in WR Burnett. The difference is staggering as far as supporting cast goes

RE: Allen's accuracy issues are a bit overblown  
DonQuixote : 1/12/2018 11:29 am : link
In comment 13784588 montanagiant said:
Quote:
He has a 56.2% completion ratio
Darnold is at 64%

The other factors to take into account is Wyoming was all Allen. They had no other skill players on that Offense in 2017 and had only one skill player drafted from 2016 (Hill RB 5th rd). Both of his starting WR's from 2016 graduated. There is zero talent besides Allen on that team.

Darnold has the #4 rated RB in the Draft in Jones and a possible 1st rd pick in WR Burnett. The difference is staggering as far as supporting cast goes


I like Allen to the Giants.
RE: RE: Allen's accuracy issues are a bit overblown  
cjac : 1/12/2018 11:38 am : link
In comment 13784605 DonQuixote said:
Quote:
In comment 13784588 montanagiant said:


Quote:


He has a 56.2% completion ratio
Darnold is at 64%

The other factors to take into account is Wyoming was all Allen. They had no other skill players on that Offense in 2017 and had only one skill player drafted from 2016 (Hill RB 5th rd). Both of his starting WR's from 2016 graduated. There is zero talent besides Allen on that team.

Darnold has the #4 rated RB in the Draft in Jones and a possible 1st rd pick in WR Burnett. The difference is staggering as far as supporting cast goes




I like Allen to the Giants.


He's my favorite right now, esp considering he will probably be sitting for a year or two
Allen is not accurate  
Thegratefulhead : 1/12/2018 11:39 am : link
Accuracy is not something QB typically improve upon. You can watch tape, and he may make some very accurate throws. Beautiful even amazing(so does Jay Cutler) This does not make him accurate. His completion percentage tells the story.
Allen  
Dragon : 1/12/2018 12:23 pm : link
Did also play in Wyoming not exactly the best weather conditions compared to California.
Allen is the one they really need to scout  
JonC : 1/12/2018 12:27 pm : link
Suspect Darnold will be their #1, but if the Browns pick him NYG needs to be prepared to pick another QB or potentially trade down for a QB or potentially Connor Williams. I don't think Orlando Brown or Mayfield will be in the mix.

Still very early in the scouting process.
because I believe Rosen's concussions  
JonC : 1/12/2018 12:28 pm : link
might be of concern.
Solid write up  
Peppers : 1/12/2018 12:33 pm : link
Nice job.

I'm hoping Josh Allen can graduate early and get accepted into the senior bowl. Would be nice to see Mayfield and Allen that week. If scheduling goes right, I'll be there.
QB  
Nomad Crow on the Madison : 1/12/2018 12:35 pm : link
is almost a guarantee at #2. Rosen, Darnold, Allen and Mayfield are too talented to pass up. Haven't watched enough film on Mayfield to make any intelligent observations, but at this juncture I am a firm believer in Rosen as the best of the bunch. I believe his concussions will subside, especially if he sits for a year, learns the system and builds up his body to take the pounding. In that time we should be able to build a solid OL. Sidney Crosby has had concussions galore, but he is still going strong.

RE: People  
Reale01 : 1/12/2018 12:38 pm : link
In comment 13784231 AcidTest said:
Quote:
are understandably overthinking this whole situation. We have the #2 pick, which thankfully doesn't happen often, so there is a lot of attention. Many QBs are also eligible, and Eli is aging.

But assuming Cleveland takes a QB, there are really only two scenarios:

(1) Cleveland takes Darnold. That leaves the Giants with Rosen or Allen. For different reasons, neither is worth the #2 pick. I'd probably trade down.

(2) Cleveland takes Allen. That leaves the Giants with Rosen or Darnold. I'd still probably prefer to trade down, but Darnold is defensible. Rosen's injury history is troublesome.


3) Cleveland takes Rosen
RE: Allen's accuracy issues are a bit overblown  
Sy'56 : 1/12/2018 12:50 pm : link
In comment 13784588 montanagiant said:
Quote:
He has a 56.2% completion ratio
Darnold is at 64%

The other factors to take into account is Wyoming was all Allen. They had no other skill players on that Offense in 2017 and had only one skill player drafted from 2016 (Hill RB 5th rd). Both of his starting WR's from 2016 graduated. There is zero talent besides Allen on that team.

Darnold has the #4 rated RB in the Draft in Jones and a possible 1st rd pick in WR Burnett. The difference is staggering as far as supporting cast goes


Who played against tougher opponents?
Sy  
ryanmkeane : 1/12/2018 1:52 pm : link
would be a safe assumption that if Browns go Darnold, your pick for Giants will be 1A Rosen and 1B Barkley?
gidiefor/sy/bbi  
Snacks : 1/12/2018 2:08 pm : link
The hitch in Webb's throwing motion. Is that what you see in his "Giants" tape? Or are we talking college?

In other words, having been in the NFL for 1 season now does he still have the hitch in his throwing motion?
RE: Solid write up  
batman11 : 1/12/2018 2:11 pm : link
In comment 13784703 Peppers said:
Quote:
Nice job.

I'm hoping Josh Allen can graduate early and get accepted into the senior bowl. Would be nice to see Mayfield and Allen that week. If scheduling goes right, I'll be there.


For what it's worth, seniorbowl.com lists Josh Allen as an "accepted invite".
Link - ( New Window )
RE: Sy  
Sy'56 : 1/12/2018 2:23 pm : link
In comment 13784840 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
would be a safe assumption that if Browns go Darnold, your pick for Giants will be 1A Rosen and 1B Barkley?


As of right now. Still waiting to see if one of these LT's can up their stock in the coming months.
RE: gidiefor/sy/bbi  
Sy'56 : 1/12/2018 2:24 pm : link
In comment 13784860 Snacks said:
Quote:
The hitch in Webb's throwing motion. Is that what you see in his "Giants" tape? Or are we talking college?

In other words, having been in the NFL for 1 season now does he still have the hitch in his throwing motion?


What I saw at training camp was progress from his college throwing motion. But it obviously was not natural to him, which is understandable. All about reps for a kid like that.

I am standing by my opinion of him...he is going to be a very high quality backup for a long time.
RE: RE: gidiefor/sy/bbi  
Snacks : 1/12/2018 2:29 pm : link
In comment 13784882 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13784860 Snacks said:


Quote:


The hitch in Webb's throwing motion. Is that what you see in his "Giants" tape? Or are we talking college?

In other words, having been in the NFL for 1 season now does he still have the hitch in his throwing motion?



What I saw at training camp was progress from his college throwing motion. But it obviously was not natural to him, which is understandable. All about reps for a kid like that.

I am standing by my opinion of him...he is going to be a very high quality backup for a long time.


Thanks. If reps are what this young man needs then put me in the group of people who wonder WTH the former HC was doing when the season went down the tubes and no reps were given.

Not even in practice from the sounds of it. (until the very end)

Strange.
There's no mystery  
JonC : 1/12/2018 2:33 pm : link
BM was trying to save his job, he determined Geno over Eli might spark his best chance to pull it off.

This suggests Webb is not ready for focused practice reps, let alone more. If they're still working on his footwork, study, ability to read defenses, work from under center, they're re-working a lot of his fundamental mechanics and busting his comfort zone. It takes time, which BM didn't have.

Coaches were all focused on saving their jobs.
RE: gidiefor/sy/bbi  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/12/2018 2:35 pm : link
In comment 13784860 Snacks said:
Quote:
The hitch in Webb's throwing motion. Is that what you see in his "Giants" tape? Or are we talking college?

In other words, having been in the NFL for 1 season now does he still have the hitch in his throwing motion?


I am/was comparing tapes of college game time for all of them -- so that I can compare apples to apples. Webb has not really played in the NFL except in preseason, and I did not review his preseason performance. In college tape -- it really is clear that Webb does not have anything close to the skill set and sizzle of Allen, Rosen and Darnold coming out of college.

I did not look thoroughly at Mayfield -- I disqualified him because of his off-field behavior - but if he somehow was in the same skill range as Allen, Rosen and Darnold - that does not change much of the thinking that I expressed above.

As to Allen -- his throws are startlingly accurate on the whole in my opinion -- I saw some Rodgers/Favre attributes in him, including some Hail Mary's (and when I say some this was not a single isolated throw - there were several) that were absolutely thrillingly stunning - 1 chance in a million type throws - right on the money. But while they stand out that is not the only thing that led me to my accuracy conclusion. Allen throws a really good ball and can make all the throws with authority, both when he is set (and he has decent footwork when he sets himself by the way), and on the run when he is unable to use good footwork.

You want to pan Allen statistically for being behind a shit oline and not having decent position players to throw to? That's not what I was looking at -- I was looking at his ability. In fact I looked at zero stats - only film.

Surprise..The Giants will  
Alwaysblue22 : 1/12/2018 2:49 pm : link
NOT take another QB... they will trade down and build around ELI and for now Webb. Maybe you really don't believe what Gettleman has said. I do not believe from what I hear that he thinks we need another QB, and he intends on fixing the O-LINE and he really means it, unlike Reese. There is no QB that can step in and play right out of college except for Baker Mayfield. And DG wants BIG GUYS so Mayfield would not appeal to him.
RE: RE: gidiefor/sy/bbi  
Thegratefulhead : 1/12/2018 2:52 pm : link
In comment 13784904 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13784860 Snacks said:


Quote:


The hitch in Webb's throwing motion. Is that what you see in his "Giants" tape? Or are we talking college?

In other words, having been in the NFL for 1 season now does he still have the hitch in his throwing motion?



I am/was comparing tapes of college game time for all of them -- so that I can compare apples to apples. Webb has not really played in the NFL except in preseason, and I did not review his preseason performance. In college tape -- it really is clear that Webb does not have anything close to the skill set and sizzle of Allen, Rosen and Darnold coming out of college.

I did not look thoroughly at Mayfield -- I disqualified him because of his off-field behavior - but if he somehow was in the same skill range as Allen, Rosen and Darnold - that does not change much of the thinking that I expressed above.

As to Allen -- his throws are startlingly accurate on the whole in my opinion -- I saw some Rodgers/Favre attributes in him, including some Hail Mary's (and when I say some this was not a single isolated throw - there were several) that were absolutely thrillingly stunning - 1 chance in a million type throws - right on the money. But while they stand out that is not the only thing that led me to my accuracy conclusion. Allen throws a really good ball and can make all the throws with authority, both when he is set (and he has decent footwork when he sets himself by the way), and on the run when he is unable to use good footwork.

You want to pan Allen statistically for being behind a shit oline and not having decent position players to throw to? That's not what I was looking at -- I was looking at his ability. In fact I looked at zero stats - only film.
I think you would see the same thing when you scout Jay Cutler. I have huge arm talent, can still sling it 60 yards at 50, I can hit a telephone pole 55 yards away. I can't do that consistently, but I can do it. Accuracy is statistics, not the eye test. I don't care if he can make a one in a million throw. NFL QBs need to be consistently accurate. Allen is not good enough.
RE: RE: gidiefor/sy/bbi  
Snacks : 1/12/2018 3:08 pm : link
In comment 13784904 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13784860 Snacks said:


Quote:


The hitch in Webb's throwing motion. Is that what you see in his "Giants" tape? Or are we talking college?

In other words, having been in the NFL for 1 season now does he still have the hitch in his throwing motion?



I am/was comparing tapes of college game time for all of them -- so that I can compare apples to apples. Webb has not really played in the NFL except in preseason, and I did not review his preseason performance. In college tape -- it really is clear that Webb does not have anything close to the skill set and sizzle of Allen, Rosen and Darnold coming out of college.

I did not look thoroughly at Mayfield -- I disqualified him because of his off-field behavior - but if he somehow was in the same skill range as Allen, Rosen and Darnold - that does not change much of the thinking that I expressed above.

As to Allen -- his throws are startlingly accurate on the whole in my opinion -- I saw some Rodgers/Favre attributes in him, including some Hail Mary's (and when I say some this was not a single isolated throw - there were several) that were absolutely thrillingly stunning - 1 chance in a million type throws - right on the money. But while they stand out that is not the only thing that led me to my accuracy conclusion. Allen throws a really good ball and can make all the throws with authority, both when he is set (and he has decent footwork when he sets himself by the way), and on the run when he is unable to use good footwork.

You want to pan Allen statistically for being behind a shit oline and not having decent position players to throw to? That's not what I was looking at -- I was looking at his ability. In fact I looked at zero stats - only film.


Thanks gidiefor, i think. ;)

Was this whole post for me?
RE: There's no mystery  
Snacks : 1/12/2018 3:18 pm : link
In comment 13784900 JonC said:
Quote:
BM was trying to save his job, he determined Geno over Eli might spark his best chance to pull it off.

This suggests Webb is not ready for focused practice reps, let alone more. If they're still working on his footwork, study, ability to read defenses, work from under center, they're re-working a lot of his fundamental mechanics and busting his comfort zone. It takes time, which BM didn't have.

Coaches were all focused on saving their jobs.



What you said (as usual sir) makes a lot of sense.

My question now is why, after BM was canned, did we not make an effort to give the kid more reps? (until last week of season)

At that point everyone knew what was gonna happen. We should have been trying to see what we have.
Coaches and players were all focused on saving their jobs.  
JonC : 1/12/2018 3:20 pm : link
Ownership wouldn't begrudge them the opportunity to put the best team possible out there, given that.

It's also quite possible Webb would've gotten his arse kicked behind that OL.

As a fan, I understand the question.
RE: Coaches and players were all focused on saving their jobs.  
Snacks : 1/12/2018 3:34 pm : link
In comment 13784991 JonC said:
Quote:
Ownership wouldn't begrudge them the opportunity to put the best team possible out there, given that.

It's also quite possible Webb would've gotten his arse kicked behind that OL.

As a fan, I understand the question.


Hmm, we are about to have the chance to draft a QB really high and have a relatively unknown QB that we just drafted already on the roster.

We knew we were cleaning house.

Best decision for the GIANTS was to let the coaches who most likely wouldn't be here next year put what THEY thought was the best team out on the field?

We should have been evaluating in my uneducated and humble opinion.
RE: RE: Coaches and players were all focused on saving their jobs.  
Victor in CT : 1/12/2018 3:41 pm : link
In comment 13785023 Snacks said:
Quote:
In comment 13784991 JonC said:


Quote:


Ownership wouldn't begrudge them the opportunity to put the best team possible out there, given that.

It's also quite possible Webb would've gotten his arse kicked behind that OL.

As a fan, I understand the question.



Hmm, we are about to have the chance to draft a QB really high and have a relatively unknown QB that we just drafted already on the roster.

We knew we were cleaning house.

Best decision for the GIANTS was to let the coaches who most likely wouldn't be here next year put what THEY thought was the best team out on the field?

We should have been evaluating in my uneducated and humble opinion.


Evaluating what? It's been said in this thread and others ad nauseum: Webb was a reach/project who was not ready to play norperhaps even practice. And to force him in behind that OL with what as left of their receiving corp would have been criminally irresponsible.
RE: RE: RE: Coaches and players were all focused on saving their jobs.  
Snacks : 1/12/2018 3:52 pm : link
In comment 13785038 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13785023 Snacks said:


Quote:


In comment 13784991 JonC said:


Quote:


Ownership wouldn't begrudge them the opportunity to put the best team possible out there, given that.

It's also quite possible Webb would've gotten his arse kicked behind that OL.

As a fan, I understand the question.



Hmm, we are about to have the chance to draft a QB really high and have a relatively unknown QB that we just drafted already on the roster.

We knew we were cleaning house.

Best decision for the GIANTS was to let the coaches who most likely wouldn't be here next year put what THEY thought was the best team out on the field?

We should have been evaluating in my uneducated and humble opinion.



Evaluating what? It's been said in this thread and others ad nauseum: Webb was a reach/project who was not ready to play norperhaps even practice. And to force him in behind that OL with what as left of their receiving corp would have been criminally irresponsible.


Victor, I understand that. I really do. Webb IS a project and i'm not saying he should have seen game action. I'm thinking we should have bumped him up to #2 a lot earlier than we did, maybe get him a series or two toward the end of the year. Eli i think has said himself the best thing for a young QB sometimes is to get out there and learn from mistakes. (or something like that)

Not saying I know better than anyone here. In fact, i'm probably wrong. But that's why i love this place. I think it's a great place to talk football.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Coaches and players were all focused on saving their jobs.  
Victor in CT : 1/12/2018 3:58 pm : link
In comment 13785065 Snacks said:
Quote:
In comment 13785038 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


In comment 13785023 Snacks said:


Quote:


In comment 13784991 JonC said:


Quote:


Ownership wouldn't begrudge them the opportunity to put the best team possible out there, given that.

It's also quite possible Webb would've gotten his arse kicked behind that OL.

As a fan, I understand the question.



Hmm, we are about to have the chance to draft a QB really high and have a relatively unknown QB that we just drafted already on the roster.

We knew we were cleaning house.

Best decision for the GIANTS was to let the coaches who most likely wouldn't be here next year put what THEY thought was the best team out on the field?

We should have been evaluating in my uneducated and humble opinion.



Evaluating what? It's been said in this thread and others ad nauseum: Webb was a reach/project who was not ready to play norperhaps even practice. And to force him in behind that OL with what as left of their receiving corp would have been criminally irresponsible.



Victor, I understand that. I really do. Webb IS a project and i'm not saying he should have seen game action. I'm thinking we should have bumped him up to #2 a lot earlier than we did, maybe get him a series or two toward the end of the year. Eli i think has said himself the best thing for a young QB sometimes is to get out there and learn from mistakes. (or something like that)

Not saying I know better than anyone here. In fact, i'm probably wrong. But that's why i love this place. I think it's a great place to talk football.


That I agree with. At 0-5 there was no reason to give 2nd team snaps to Smith instead of Webb
RE: RE: RE: gidiefor/sy/bbi  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/12/2018 4:24 pm : link
In comment 13784971 Snacks said:
Quote:

Thanks gidiefor, i think. ;)

Was this whole post for me?


no -- the comments on Allen were to address some other posters comments about his lack of accurasy
RE: RE: RE: RE: gidiefor/sy/bbi  
Snacks : 1/12/2018 4:30 pm : link
In comment 13785130 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13784971 Snacks said:


Quote:



Thanks gidiefor, i think. ;)

Was this whole post for me?



no -- the comments on Allen were to address some other posters comments about his lack of accurasy


Got it. Good post gidiefor.
RE: Allen  
montanagiant : 1/12/2018 5:25 pm : link
In comment 13784684 Dragon said:
Quote:
Did also play in Wyoming not exactly the best weather conditions compared to California.

Excellent point
I hope we take a long, long look at Mr. Allen.  
bceagle05 : 1/12/2018 5:31 pm : link
He can really sling a football.
RE: RE: Allen's accuracy issues are a bit overblown  
montanagiant : 1/12/2018 5:35 pm : link
In comment 13784726 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 13784588 montanagiant said:


Quote:


He has a 56.2% completion ratio
Darnold is at 64%

The other factors to take into account is Wyoming was all Allen. They had no other skill players on that Offense in 2017 and had only one skill player drafted from 2016 (Hill RB 5th rd). Both of his starting WR's from 2016 graduated. There is zero talent besides Allen on that team.

Darnold has the #4 rated RB in the Draft in Jones and a possible 1st rd pick in WR Burnett. The difference is staggering as far as supporting cast goes




Who played against tougher opponents?

In relation to Talent on the team? The argument could be made that it's Wyoming. As far as who played a tougher schedule it's USC but once again you have One team that will most likely have 6 players drafted vs the other team that will have only 1. That's not even counting that fact that USC will have other 4-5 players signed as UFA while Wyoming won't have a single one.
My top three  
RAIN : 1/12/2018 6:48 pm : link
I got Darnold ahead of Rosen, because of the escapability and what he could do without an Online. He looks alot like Russell Wilson in all honesty. Not quite as nifty on the run, but pretty close.

I got Rosen as a pure passer that is really accurate and can go to the third read pretty quickly. He's a surgeon that can climb the pocket and throw it deep with amazing accuracy.

I got Barkley at three, because he's ridiculous. You could make an offense around him.

The top two are fairly polished for college QB's though, and interviews there will be critical. If your convinced that Josh Allen is a winner with impeccable character and you want to roll the dice, I would only trade down a spot or two to get him. He's got everything you want ala Wentz, but does he have Wentz's worth ethic and leadership at a young age?

In all of these scenario's, the interviews are what are critical and demand the most attention, because the on-field stuff is very promising in all three QB cases aside from the RB (whom I think is a sure thing in every respect).
Was any of the tape of Webb beyond college?  
steve in ky : 1/13/2018 1:51 pm : link
.
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