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If the Giants hire Patricia and switch to 3-4

section125 : 1/12/2018 9:36 am
what pieces do they have to do so? I had this on the Patricia favorite thread but figure it might be worth it's own thread.

Here are my guess at current Giants (yes with resigned FAs) and what positions they would fit in a 3-4:

NT - Snacks/Tomlinson
DE - JPP/Bromley
DE - Vernon/Wynn (If OV to small for a 3-4 DE move Bromley)

LOLB - Okwara (was a LB at ND)/???
ROLB - Vernon(?) / Williams
RILB - Goodsen / Draft Pick
LILB - Kennard / Draft Pick

CB - Jenkins/ DRC
CB - Cockrell/Apple

SS- Collins/Adams
FS - Thompson/Draft Pick

I think Okwara would be perfect as OLB - played some LB at ND and he looked good dropping into zone coverage a couple times and he has a decent pass rush.

Anyway, make corrections or add FAs or draft picks.
Why would they switch?  
Rflairr : 1/12/2018 9:37 am : link
.
I think there is some misconception that the Pats run a  
bLiTz 2k : 1/12/2018 9:38 am : link
3-4 bass...
i doubt  
uncledave : 1/12/2018 9:38 am : link
they switch... 4-3 is in the giants DNA
RE: Why would they switch?  
Brown Recluse : 1/12/2018 9:41 am : link
In comment 13784390 Rflairr said:
Quote:
.


I'm sorry but, its going to take me some time to see your handle on here and not immediately see Marc Ross's face.

Maybe things will be different, in time.

But for right now, I'm just not ready.
RE: i doubt  
antdog24 : 1/12/2018 9:41 am : link
In comment 13784394 uncledave said:
Quote:
they switch... 4-3 is in the giants DNA

Giants won two super bowls with a 3-4 defense under Parcells.
RE: Why would they switch?  
section125 : 1/12/2018 9:42 am : link
In comment 13784390 Rflairr said:
Quote:
.


It is a question, not a foregone conclusion. It is a thread different than the 20 a day on the #2 pick or who is the next coach.
The Patriots have transitioned to the  
pjcas18 : 1/12/2018 9:47 am : link
4-2-5 base D (big nickel) over the past few years.

But as we were discussing in the pinned thread on Matt Patricia, the Patriots were a team that didn't use their base D (whether it was a 3-4 or 4-3 and they've switched multiple times over the years) extensively.

they run sub-packages like the big nickel more than the 4-3 or 3-4.

That does mean though they need to emphasize versatility in their LB's as well as have/or have at least 3 safeties.

Think back to Deion Grant on the Giants. That defense is similar to what the Patriots run, only the Giants strength was their DE's, Pats the LB's (to an extent).
Until Strahan, the 3-4 was in the Giants DNA. If you have a NT,  
Ivan15 : 1/12/2018 9:48 am : link
I think the 3-4 is easier to build.

Yeah I know you need 4 LBs instead of 3.
I think it would  
Powerclean765 : 1/12/2018 9:53 am : link
work great. Heres how Iíd do it:

The #1 reason to switch is Snacks - the best 34NT in the league, the Giants most dominant force defensively and a truly special talent. Building the scheme around Snacks to maximize his utility is a sound plan.

The DEís can be 2 styles - 1 a penetrator/disruptor (think JJ Watt, Malik Jackson or Joey Bosa). I love JPP in this spot. The other DE would be the run stuffer and a perfect spot for Dalvin Tomlinson, who played 34DE in college for Saban.

Then the LBs - I really like OV in the old Carl Banks position at LOLB. (I think hes a strongside player more than weskside).

When it shakes out the 3-4 looks like this:

LOLB - Olivier Vernon
LDE - Jason Pierre-Paul
NT - Snacks
RDE - Dalvin Tomlinson
ROLB - ???

RILB - B.J. Goodson
LILB - ???

**This front would be a bitch to run against.
Lining up OV on the outside shoulder of JPP should create big problems for blocking schemes.

The Giants would still need a speed rushing ROLB Elephant and a 3-down ILB - but they need that now anyways.

Devon Kennard would be a key re-sign: He can back up all 4 LB spots and even start at ROLB until they found their guy.
I think  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/12/2018 9:54 am : link
3-4 proponents need to pay attention more to what the Patriots are actually running. Like many teams, they aren't pegged into one system.
3-4 was the defense of the glory days, no?  
GuzzaBlue : 1/12/2018 9:55 am : link
LT at OLB.

JPP at this point in his career would probably serve as a solid 3-4 end with Snacks in the middle. Vernon would be an OLB. If you resign Kennard his best fit might be 34 OLB. You would have to find at least another MLB who can cover ground.
RE: i doubt  
djstat : 1/12/2018 10:02 am : link
In comment 13784394 uncledave said:
Quote:
they switch... 4-3 is in the giants DNA
Yeah LT looked great in the 4-3....oh wait that was a 3-4.

Everyone on BBI gets all hyped about 3-4 or 4-3 and most teams barely are ever in either.
RE: I think  
bLiTz 2k : 1/12/2018 10:02 am : link
In comment 13784425 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
3-4 proponents need to pay attention more to what the Patriots are actually running. Like many teams, they aren't pegged into one system.


exactly. i posted twice already that the Pats are not a traditional 3-4 team. Their defense is year to year and even week to week in terms of personnel groupings and formations. They are primarily a 2-Gap base D that uses a bunch of different looks.
RE: I think  
section125 : 1/12/2018 10:02 am : link
In comment 13784425 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
3-4 proponents need to pay attention more to what the Patriots are actually running. Like many teams, they aren't pegged into one system.


True - I'm only trying to see if a 3-4 is possible with what the Giants have. I like the multiple styles that the Pats run, but in order to do so you need the pieces to shuffle around. The Giants obviously need better LBs to even consider a move to 3-4, but just something to do to fill the day.
RE: RE: I think  
Powerclean765 : 1/12/2018 10:12 am : link
In comment 13784439 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
In comment 13784425 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


3-4 proponents need to pay attention more to what the Patriots are actually running. Like many teams, they aren't pegged into one system.



exactly. i posted twice already that the Pats are not a traditional 3-4 team. Their defense is year to year and even week to week in terms of personnel groupings and formations. They are primarily a 2-Gap base D that uses a bunch of different looks.


No doubt, and agree with thise saying the Giants have been running plenty of 34 concepts the last 3 years under Spags. Part of the reason I know OV and even JPP could be good 34OLBs is how often they play from a 2 pt. stance already.
It's difficult to just purely run a base 3-4  
GuzzaBlue : 1/12/2018 10:14 am : link
in today's game for an entire season. Most offenses will have 3 receivers on the field most of the game. I think the base defenses are built around having 5 DB's on the field.
RE: I think  
BigBlueinChicago : 1/12/2018 10:16 am : link
In comment 13784425 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
3-4 proponents need to pay attention more to what the Patriots are actually running. Like many teams, they aren't pegged into one system.


Correct. They are "multiple" in their defensive fronts.

It allows you to be flexible and depending on the opponent, change what you want to do so you can have an advantage over your opponent.

Patriots play the  
RetroJint : 1/12/2018 10:18 am : link
amoeba which most resembles Wade Phillips conceptually . For the straight 4-3 , Minnesota, Jacksonville and Philadelphia are playing it the best . What many fans donít realize is the traditional Oklahoma 3-4 front is obsolete . 2 gapping up front with huge pluggers. The new inside backer is built for speed- guys like Smith on the Jags and Lee on the Jets.
The Giants need a major infusion of speed added to their defense. The only way to make Collins play ďfasterĒ is to move him up.

Everyone assumes that Vernon would move to LB in a 3-4  
Ivan15 : 1/12/2018 10:22 am : link
but his best year was 2013 and I think he played DE in a 3-4 then. He is light but didnít have any problem in a 3-4. Dolphins DC was Kevin Coyle.

If a switch is made to a 3-4, JPP might be a better LB than Vernon. JPP has played that role a bit, like when Kiwi was hurt. Also his hand problem would not be as big a problem at LB. JPP at rush LB could be pretty effective. Flexibility to play 4-3 would still be there.
Would like to see  
Dankbeerman : 1/12/2018 10:22 am : link
a 4 man line with a true centetfield deep saftey, jenkins, another CB outside and then Collins and DRC flexing to the offenses formattion.

If they come with a run look bring Collins up to the line amd drop DRC in a trafitional S look.

Felx out a TE or add a slot reciever and DRC can line up over him and Collins can line up as a S or LB

Both DRC and Collins blitz better the any LB we have had in forver.
The Patriots base D is not  
pjcas18 : 1/12/2018 10:23 am : link
a 3-4. It is a 4-2-5 (big nickel) and they've been trending that way for a few years, but as others have mentioned they're more of a match-up/scheme defense and show multiple looks.

Plus, as mentioned (by Joey?) the Patriots have managed to switch base D from 3-4 to 4-3 over an off-season, having a player like Wilfork made it easy, as big as he was, he still had versatility to play 3-4 NT or 4-3 DT, and Snacks has that same versatility IMO.

I still think the Giants probably lack the athletic LB's a coach like BB (or presumably Patricia) would emphasize, but that isn't scheme dependent IMO, it's more of an overall defensive philosophy.
regarding Pats 4-2-5  
idiotsavant : 1/12/2018 10:24 am : link
if one of your '2' (lbs"") is OV and the other is Collins

You have available without changing the set: the 5-0-6

3 True DTs (Tomlinson/a NT type draft pick/Snacks)
1 'DE' (jpp strong side)
1 'DE/LB' (OV other side)
1 'S/LB' (Collins)
2 S (Adams and Thompson)
3 Cover corners

and that's without additionals that may come in draft
RE: i doubt  
jvm52106 : 1/12/2018 10:30 am : link
In comment 13784394 uncledave said:
Quote:
they switch... 4-3 is in the giants DNA


DNA- yeah minus all of the 80's and early 90's.... Sure....

Ummm, they can easily switch. This idea that it is like going from flying a kite to the Space Shuttle is nuts.

Vernon could go to 3/4 OLB, JPP is basically a 3/4 end now with more run game ability than pass rush. We would need LB'ers but hello, we fucking need LB'ers now.... They would just be a little different..
I think  
NikkiMac : 1/12/2018 10:30 am : link
Kennard would excel as the weak outside linebacker in that system
RE: I think  
jvm52106 : 1/12/2018 10:32 am : link
In comment 13784425 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
3-4 proponents need to pay attention more to what the Patriots are actually running. Like many teams, they aren't pegged into one system.


But Eric, many here act like making the switch would be too tough and too foreign.,. Bullshit... It can easily be done. This is the NFL not freaking Pee Wee football.
due to OLs getting 50+lbs bigger since the 1980s  
idiotsavant : 1/12/2018 10:34 am : link
and the passing game quicker....


the 5-0-6 brings you much bigger average D linesmen (and 5) and much faster quicker back 6

its got 3/4 or '46' roots, only:

- take 2 of your 4 (the 3/4's LBs) and make them more DL-like (heavier etc) and ....2 other of the 4... make them more safety-like (much quicker and faster with better cover instincts) and you have a 5-0-6

another way of looking at it would be a 'modified' '46' with your formerly known as a 'stud lb' (lined up near the TE) being an actual DE with anti-run OL handing leverage ability....and as above with the other lbs.
Thats where the OP lost me  
idiotsavant : 1/12/2018 10:40 am : link
using guys like Goodson who are neither big enough to crash the line against a run blocking OT or OG...nor quick or instinctive enough to cover.....why waste a spot on the 11?

If you DO do a 3/4...

...use 3 true DTs....2 of your LBs have to be actually DE-like, not smaller versions...and 2 basically fully functioning safeties...not rehashed old fashioned mikes.

so, Kennard MAYBE as a big...maybe...but Goodson would not have a roll either way.
here see gap increase between DL/OL since 1980  
idiotsavant : 1/12/2018 10:47 am : link
Also ...  
Beer Man : 1/12/2018 10:50 am : link
One of MacAdoo's many faults is that he refused (or didn't know how) to adapt his system to take advantage of the talent that he had on the team. The Giants currently don't have the types of players needed for a 3-4 D. If this is the D that Patricia would want as his base, he is going to have to adapt and implement it over a few seasons. Fortunately, he demonstrated in NE that he is capable of getting the most out of his defensive players. The Pats D has been consistently good (not the best) even though they don't have a lot of star power.
another  
idiotsavant : 1/12/2018 10:51 am : link




sort of indicates why a 3/4 nowadays (taking into account quick release passing game) maybe really ought to be a 5-0-6
you could use the word 'divergence'  
idiotsavant : 1/12/2018 10:54 am : link
and the traditional slowish, tough 245lb LB of 1980 is the one being diverged away from.

its either bigger and badder, or smaller and much faster and with more field vision.
I agree with Powerclean, I think some of  
Section331 : 1/12/2018 11:20 am : link
our key personnel is better suited to a 3-4. Snacks is exactly what you want in a NT, and DE. My main concern is OV, heís not a 3-4 DE or OLB.
I doubt it happens  
Matt M. : 1/12/2018 11:31 am : link
But, if you move Vernon to LB it isn't going to be ILB, it will be to OLB.
BB  
Alex_Webster : 1/12/2018 11:33 am : link
changed his formations all through career with the same personnel. I think Patricia will use same philosophy.




Bill Belichick Explains changing defense - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Why would they switch?  
Rflairr : 1/12/2018 11:41 am : link
In comment 13784400 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
In comment 13784390 Rflairr said:


Quote:


.



I'm sorry but, its going to take me some time to see your handle on here and not immediately see Marc Ross's face.

Maybe things will be different, in time.

But for right now, I'm just not ready.


I really donít give a shit. Thatís your problem
Just because a D Coordinator runs a certain defense on one team  
PatersonPlank : 1/12/2018 12:02 pm : link
doesn't mean he'll run the same on another team. These guys don't only understand one setup. They will look at the talent and come up with the best way to win
Bill and Patricia have always run a hybrid defense that fits their  
jlukes : 1/12/2018 12:04 pm : link
personnel.

It's not a 3-4 and it's not a 4-3. It is a situational mix.
RE: Bill and Patricia have always run a hybrid defense that fits their  
Alex_Webster : 1/12/2018 1:11 pm : link
In comment 13784665 jlukes said:
Quote:
personnel.

It's not a 3-4 and it's not a 4-3. It is a situational mix.


Exactly! Correct! BB has explained this on many occasions.
Once most pro teams went to a Spread Offense...  
STLGiant : 1/12/2018 1:18 pm : link
that pretty much killed the 3-4, unless you have 2 VERY fast Hybrid OLB. How fast? They'd need to have 40 times like most CBs or WRs, but tough enough to stop any edge rushing RB or cover a TE/H like Engram...

In some ways the 4-2-5 "mimics" the 3-4 of the Giant's past by having four rushers (LT rushed more than he covered passes); two inside LBs (Like Carson & Reasons/VanPelt) to protect against RB plays tackle-to-tackler and 4 DBs (3 fast CBs like the nickel to cover the outside WR and the slot WR; and one tough SS to matchup with a hybrid TE/H-backs.
The Pats have run a version of the 4-3 as their base defense...  
Torrag : 1/12/2018 1:25 pm : link
...for years now...so there's that.
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