Shurmur = More West Coast Offense

just score more pts than we have recently.

Vikes ran the ball a lot this year.

it was PATHETIC!

This offense will be so much better. It has to be.

While most offenses he's been in have a ton of WC concepts, every HC he has served under had pretty different offenses all around.

Hell, the guy coached under 3 Eagles Head Coaches who all have completely different styles...also to note this year with the Vikes, they run quite a bit of Pro-run concepts that dont really fall in-line with a true WCO.

He has worked with Andy Reid and Norv Turner and takes parts of their philosophies to blend with his own. He does believe in running the Ball as opposed to our ex coach.

and ran the ball 501 times.

Giants had 608 passing attempts vs 394 rushing attempts.

Now some of that is certainly situational football, but to think we're going to see the same run/pass splits with PS is insane.

Other notable snap counts:
Rudolph - 82.6%
Morgan (#2 TE): 35%
Ham (FB): 18%

Engram: 71.7%
Ellison: 50%
Smith: 4.6%

Probably a lot more likely to see 21 or 12 personnel.

will include making the most out of Beckham, Engram, Shephard, and a tight end he should know something about -- Rhett Ellison. As an NFC East alum, he also should know about the importance of a running game.

In comment 13790691 bLiTz 2k said:

Quote:

While most offenses he's been in have a ton of WC concepts, every HC he has served under had pretty different offenses all around. Hell, the guy coached under 3 Eagles Head Coaches who all have completely different styles...also to note this year with the Vikes, they run quite a bit of Pro-run concepts that dont really fall in-line with a true WCO.

Well if that's the case, I hope we can be multiple on offense. I like this hire.

Brett Favre played for Holmgren, who ran as pure a WCO as anyone post-Walsh. The years Favre won his MVPs:

12th in pass attempts, 14th in rush attempts
18th in pass attempts, 10th in rush attempts


Andy Reid in KC, another west coast guy,
2014: 28th in pass attempts, 16th in rush attempts
2015: 29th in pass attempts, 12th in rush attempts
2016: 25th in pass attempts, 14th in rush attempts
2017: 17th in pass attempts, 23rd in rush attempts

which Shurmur has shown. Use the system that makes the most of OBJ, Engram, etc.

Did you not hear Aikman say that last night?

Vikings have the 2nd ranked rushing offense. 2nd most rushing attempts. They run the ball 48.74% which is the 5th highest in the league behind Bills, Jaguars, Panthers, & Cowboys.

They are a mix of WCO with a lot of run thrown in. Pardon the pun.

And it’s not as simple as this = more West Coast

Shurmur has run many systems and has taken complementary components of all of them, including Chip Kelly’s spread. If you watch the Vikings they are not a true West Coast Offense. They are a hybrid. Also I think we all need to keep in mind what we saw with McAdoo was the most unrefined unintelligent stubbornly executed offense in recent memory. Shurmur will at the very least not be that.

It’s a power spread designed to stretch the defense out.

A good read on it here
Power spread - ( New Window )

It was Mac's unwillingness to shape game plans around the strength of his players. It was his lack of commitment to the run game. From what i have read on Shurmur, he calls plays to the strength of his players abilities. I think Diggs said Shurmur is really approachable, if the players do not like something and describe why instead of just pouting he is willing to adjust his gameplan. He is great with quarterbacks and definitely has no ego calling plays - whatever works, he'll run it. Can he take charge of this locker room? Can he handle adversity well ?(apparently had problems with Cleveland's media shortly before his firing)...these are the questions that will probably define his tenure here.

I still don't think a WCO meshes well with what Eli does well. Or Webb for that matter. Leads me to believe we are drafting a QB high.

That being said, any offense is better than what McAdoo ran the past two seasons - where I believe the objective was to get the offense off the field as quickly as possible. The anti ball control offense.

If McAdoo were to be given another season, I suspect the natural progression would have been something like: Pass, Punt.

Eli's not the future here.

but his back and forth use of Murray and McKinnon was awfully similar to one who shall not be mentioned.

In comment 13790758 SHO'NUFF said:

Quote:

but his back and forth use of Murray and McKinnon was awfully similar to one who shall not be mentioned.

Cook was getting the majority of the carries until he got hurt

In comment 13790706 clatterbuck said:

Quote:

will include making the most out of Beckham, Engram, Shephard, and a tight end he should know something about -- Rhett Ellison. As an NFC East alum, he also should know about the importance of a running game.

I forgot about Rhett (apparently so did Ben), but he has to be really happy about the news.

and running backs that can find them. Not saying McAdoo was a good or bad coach, but I never cared much for his look, the way he talked, or his personality. Not that any of this translates into being an ineffective head coach.

In comment 13790771 Diver_Down said:

Quote:

In comment 13790706 clatterbuck said: Quote: will include making the most out of Beckham, Engram, Shephard, and a tight end he should know something about -- Rhett Ellison. As an NFC East alum, he also should know about the importance of a running game. I forgot about Rhett (apparently so did Ben), but he has to be really happy about the news.

Running from spread out formations makes Ellison even more valuable. I’d bet we see him as the pulling FB often

Pulling guards running...maybe Inside zone runs...mid depth passing.

Looks like he has been able to adjust here and there.

But I agree we do have to minimize the dink and dunk and run as pass junk. Reed isn't really super replicable anyway .

In comment 13790749 Modus Operandi said:

Quote:

I still don't think a WCO meshes well with what Eli does well. Or Webb for that matter. Leads me to believe we are drafting a QB high. That being said, any offense is better than what McAdoo ran the past two seasons - where I believe the objective was to get the offense off the field as quickly as possible. The anti ball control offense. If McAdoo were to be given another season, I suspect the natural progression would have been something like: Pass, Punt.

Shurmer is flexable. West Coast offense is 3/5 step drops and all timing. Vikings through plenty down field and their offense was more Norv Turners then Andy Reids. Don't let names fool you. The true WCO has long been dead and buried. Mac did not run a WCO he ran a crap offense with one formation.

In comment 13790781 GeofromNJ said:

Quote:

and running backs that can find them. Not saying McAdoo was a good or bad coach, but I never cared much for his look, the way he talked, or his personality. Not that any of this translates into being an ineffective head coach.

We had the same personnel when Sully took over as OC, and ultimately, after McAdoo was exhiled, our offense looked drastically different.

I attributed that to spags making a few common sense adjusts. Adjust to ball. Catch. Go down. Move chains.

In comment 13790758 SHO'NUFF said:

Quote:

but his back and forth use of Murray and McKinnon was awfully similar to one who shall not be mentioned.

The concept of just one RB getting all the work is almost as dead as the FB position. Unless you have somebody special there that you invested a lot of picks or money in, there are no "workhorse" backs anymore.

as soon as we see the Giants vs the 2 high look which McAdoo couldn't figure out.

and you can run any kind of offense you want.

Outside zone move players, or big pile mover's, guards that pull or what have you. It will be educational to watch whatever they do.

In comment 13790758 SHO'NUFF said:

Quote:

but his back and forth use of Murray and McKinnon was awfully similar to one who shall not be mentioned.

Most teams are doing this.

Unless you're PIT, LAR, KC or BUF, you probably had at least two guys splitting a good deal of carries.

MIN was 7th in the NFL in rush YPG so it's obviously working out alright.

moves Mayfield up on the Giants' board. Just hope he and Gettleman are on the same page.

Shurmur looks like a nice, quite guy. Problem is though, I'm not sure the Giants' don't need a tougher nut. Oh well, appearances can be deceiving.

In comment 13791048 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

In comment 13790758 SHO'NUFF said: Quote: but his back and forth use of Murray and McKinnon was awfully similar to one who shall not be mentioned. Most teams are doing this. Unless you're PIT, LAR, KC or BUF, you probably had at least two guys splitting a good deal of carries. MIN was 7th in the NFL in rush YPG so it's obviously working out alright.

it's true, but I like to go with the hot hand, and not alternate series. So the question is, does Shurmer value the rb position enough to pick Barkley at #2 (to use like he did Cook), or is he ok with 50/50 split between Darkwa/Gallman (to use like he did with Murray/McKinnon)?

In comment 13791048 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

In comment 13790758 SHO'NUFF said: Quote: but his back and forth use of Murray and McKinnon was awfully similar to one who shall not be mentioned. Most teams are doing this. Unless you're PIT, LAR, KC or BUF, you probably had at least two guys splitting a good deal of carries. MIN was 7th in the NFL in rush YPG so it's obviously working out alright.

As the season wore on, Murray did the bulk of the running with McKinnon essentially a 3rd down and change of pace back.

Current roster vs the second overall pick for RB.

You have 6 other picks and Lord knows how many free agents.

I wouldn't call Minny's offense even close to a traditional West Coast offense.

With a middling OL, Adam Thielen, Stephon Diggs, Case Keenum and a stable of veteran nobodies at RB.

In comment 13791070 HomerJones45 said:

Quote:

In comment 13791048 arcarsenal said: Quote: In comment 13790758 SHO'NUFF said: Quote: but his back and forth use of Murray and McKinnon was awfully similar to one who shall not be mentioned. Most teams are doing this. Unless you're PIT, LAR, KC or BUF, you probably had at least two guys splitting a good deal of carries. MIN was 7th in the NFL in rush YPG so it's obviously working out alright. As the season wore on, Murray did the bulk of the running with McKinnon essentially a 3rd down and change of pace back.

Murray did get more carries as the year wore on, but they were still both pretty involved in terms of getting touches. The disparity didn't get that large until the final two weeks.

Touches by week after Cook was hurt:

Murray:

14, 16, 18, 20, 17, 16, 20, 19, 11, 21, 22, 21

McKinnon:

22, 20, 17, 20, 12, 19, 14, 14, 9, 16, 8, 12

What know is that this team needs a running game which it has not had in years. I think Shurmur and Gettleman will get together and do the right thing. West Coast or no West Coast offense, the running game is just as important, as the passing game. I think Shurmur will establish the running game.

..

In comment 13791147 CGiants07 said:

Quote:

..

People are ignoring the spread concepts Shurmur uses. They see WCO and think he's going to come in here and run a carbon copy of what McAdoo did.

We will be a better running team with Shurmur and I think whoever plays QB for us will be better suited for RPO's than Eli.

and BBI seems very positive, first of all about DG's hire, and now the HC search.

Gettleman I am sure will do a good job, but I was hoping the Giants circle of trust could expand beyond former employees.
I'm sure Shurmur will be a good HC, but he also does not have any HC experience, and he also runs a west coast offense.

Not saying Gettleman is Reese, and I'm certainly not saying Shurmur would be Mac 2.0, but they seem to be following the same philosophies that have gotten them to a 3 win season.

So I sit back and wait. Have to admit, not thrilled, but hope to end up satisfied, with Gettleman, and of the HC candidates, I think I would chose Mike Smith, and then Patricia. They will get the best available. Not excited, not panicked, just waiting to see what happens, and then see how well it all works.

In comment 13791442 Glover said:

Quote:

and BBI seems very positive, first of all about DG's hire, and now the HC search. Gettleman I am sure will do a good job, but I was hoping the Giants circle of trust could expand beyond former employees. I'm sure Shurmur will be a good HC, but he also does not have any HC experience, and he also runs a west coast offense. Not saying Gettleman is Reese, and I'm certainly not saying Shurmur would be Mac 2.0, but they seem to be following the same philosophies that have gotten them to a 3 win season. So I sit back and wait. Have to admit, not thrilled, but hope to end up satisfied, with Gettleman, and of the HC candidates, I think I would chose Mike Smith, and then Patricia. They will get the best available. Not excited, not panicked, just waiting to see what happens, and then see how well it all works.

Uhh...Shurmur has two years of HC experience with the Browns, probably one of the reasons why he is the lead candidate..

About his offense is his commitment to running the ball.

his WCO definitely did not abandon the run.

Andy Reid only abandons the run when he can win the game with a big lead and has the best back in the league :-)

In comment 13791445 Peppers said:

Quote:

About his offense is his commitment to running the ball.

This. People misinterpret what a WCO means. It is not antithetical to a good running game.

In comment 13791722 Section331 said:

Quote:

In comment 13791445 Peppers said: Quote: About his offense is his commitment to running the ball. This. People misinterpret what a WCO means. It is not antithetical to a good running game.

Exactly. I believe that the majority of people that see West Coast Offense means throwing the ball all over the place and not running the football.

That is a completely false assumption. First off like every offensive scheme or system there are variations of that system, so it is not wise to make a blanket statement or assumption.

Second it is simply NOT true.

The Eagles have run a WCO, They have an effective running game with Blount and Ajayi.

The Andy Reid Eagles teams had effective running attacks with Brian Westbrookand Shady Mcoy,

Andy Reid also had a very effective running attack with Jamaal Charles and currently has Kareem Hunt as a rookie leading the NFL in rushing.

Mike Shanahan ran the WCO during John Elway's Superbowl wins and had Terell Davis are RB.. so we know there was an affective rushing attack there.

The Rams under McVay run a WCO and Todd Gurley is having an MVP caliber season..

The Falcons run a WCO and have a two headed attack with Freeman and Coleman...

And of course the Bill Walsh 49ers had Roger Craig at running back.

So it is inaccurate to say that a WCO doesnt have a solid rushing attack. We have seen dominant runners and NFL Hall of Famers and NFL rushing leaders come from WCO systems.

However what is a key to a WCO is a running back that is adept at BOTH running the football and receiving out of the backfield a trait that all these backs listed here share in common. They also need to be able to protect the QB as all running backs should be able to.

The Giants will need to find a RB who is both a good runner and receiver out of the backfield to optimize Shurmur's version of a WCO which has been called by some a. Power Spread offense.