In all likelihood, we were probably taking one regardless, but does this all but confirm it? Considering his success with Bradford in St. Louis, Foles in Philly, & now Keenum in MN, he's somewhat of a 'QB whisper'.
I'd be floored if they went any other direction after the work he's done with QBs. Which means it has to be Rosen unless they trade down for some reason. Or unless they're somehow enamored with Darnold but it would be silly to trade up one spot for him unless they think he's a sure thing.
Since the Giants secured the 2nd overall pick I assumed they would take a QB as it is the most logical decision IMO unless the Giants truly do not like any of the top QB's which I have a hard time believing. Sure Barkley is a special talent but this draft is extremely deep at RB and I think the Giants would waste most of Barkley's prime years trying to find their franchise QB if they don't take one this year.
think it increases the chances for Allen. A new coach typically wants his own QB. I still think the Giants may pass on Rosen because of his injury history. I assume the Browns will take Darnold.
But I wouldn't be stunned if the Giants don't take a QB at #2. As someone said, Shurmur is a QB "whisperer." He may well feel he can develop Webb.
to Draft a QB just cuz its a need. This isn't fantasy football guys. You don't pick on need. When you're this high you pick BPA. Now with an older QB if there is a QB that you love there then you take him. IF!!!! To me that QB is Darnold but he will not be there. In that case I do NOT pick Rosen just because he's a QB with good physical abilities. This kid does not IMO have the mental capacity to be a great or good pro QB...not one worth the #2 pick. In that case, if the Giants also feel that way you DON'T take a QB. I don't care if your coach is the all time guru of QB's. You take BPA....and that is...Barkley. Or you can trade down.
think it increases the chances for Allen. A new coach typically wants his own QB. I still think the Giants may pass on Rosen because of his injury history. I assume the Browns will take Darnold.
But I wouldn't be stunned if the Giants don't take a QB at #2. As someone said, Shurmur is a QB "whisperer." He may well feel he can develop Webb.
It is hard to predict what the Giants will do but if I had to guess I would say that Darnold is #1 on their board. I have a feeling that by draft day Allen will be a serious canidate to go 2nd overall if the Browns take Darnold. It also wouldn't surprise me if the Browns took Allen 1st.
However, this is my take. I was not on board with taking a QB at 2 not because I don't want a QB but because the risk os just crazy with these top guys. With that said, if we took a QB at 2 I would feel a lot better about it with Shurmur here. I think the chances increase of having that QB work out.
to Draft a QB just cuz its a need. This isn't fantasy football guys. You don't pick on need. When you're this high you pick BPA. Now with an older QB if there is a QB that you love there then you take him. IF!!!! To me that QB is Darnold but he will not be there. In that case I do NOT pick Rosen just because he's a QB with good physical abilities. This kid does not IMO have the mental capacity to be a great or good pro QB...not one worth the #2 pick. In that case, if the Giants also feel that way you DON'T take a QB. I don't care if your coach is the all time guru of QB's. You take BPA....and that is...Barkley. Or you can trade down.
Who is suggesting they draft a QB because of need? If the Giants truly believe that none of the top 4 QB's are worthy of the 2nd pick then the Giants should trade down and pick up another first round pick next year that they could potentially use to package to move up for a QB then.
I don't think it's a given that his hiring indicates the Giants will select a QB with pick number 2. We still have to go through Senior Bowl, East-West Shrine game, the Combine, not to mention the numerous individual workouts. The results of all of those things will help DG determine if there is a QB worth spending the number 2 pick on. Having Shurmur means they are ready if they find/draft a new QB. If the team doesn't select a QB, Shurmur should be able to help the QBs that are on the roster come OTAs and training camp.
However, this is my take. I was not on board with taking a QB at 2 not because I don't want a QB but because the risk os just crazy with these top guys. With that said, if we took a QB at 2 I would feel a lot better about it with Shurmur here. I think the chances increase of having that QB work out.
The risk is crazy with Barkley also. What if he is the next Trent Richardson. What if he suffers a devastating knee injury during the preseason and is never the same?
of these guys then you have to take him. He's coached so many QB's you gotta think he knows what to look for better than Gettleman or any of the scouts. Coughlin played a big role I'm sure in the Manning decision in '04. Shurmur should play a big role in this upcoming decision.
However, this is my take. I was not on board with taking a QB at 2 not because I don't want a QB but because the risk os just crazy with these top guys. With that said, if we took a QB at 2 I would feel a lot better about it with Shurmur here. I think the chances increase of having that QB work out.
The risk is crazy with Barkley also. What if he is the next Trent Richardson. What if he suffers a devastating knee injury during the preseason and is never the same?
Your argument is a knee injury? Really? That is the same for all players. They all have that risk. I am talking about a guy who may be forced to retire early with the concussions he has suffered already. I am talking about a guy that runs a mickey mouse offense and is basically taking a high school QB in terms of development. I am talking about a guy that has had an alarming completion percentage against inferior competition. Every player has upside but that is what the draft is. You evaualte the players on the information you have now and try to project how that player will be able to perform on the toughest stage in the sport. A knee injury doesn't come into play unless medicals point to a player at an increased risk of tearing something.
How is taking a guy at 2 who either didn't start or complete 12 of his last 20 college games, with a concussion history, a shoulder that's already had surgery and a knee injury a no brainier?
Unless of course you're saying someone with no brain would take him at 2.
Not even John Elway could secure the highest grade . Every ensuing draft class’s quarterbacks will be found to have warts-throwing motions , grip span, footwork,recognition etc. Get used to it. Goff went through all of that horseshit. Looks like he’s going to turn out alright. Also get used to the Giants drafting Rosen at 2 unless somebody beats them to it at 1.
Shurmur is 51 or something . He wants to be the Giants coach for 10 years. He nedds a quarterback . What do you think is going to happen? The one possible hedge is if Shurmur and the Vikings had a really positive read on Webb, which is highly unlikely .
Rosen doesn’t have the mental capacity? Interesting take. First I heard of that. I thought he was one of the better at that side of playing QB, but what do I, and everyone else know.
to Draft a QB just cuz its a need. This isn't fantasy football guys. You don't pick on need. When you're this high you pick BPA. Now with an older QB if there is a QB that you love there then you take him. IF!!!! To me that QB is Darnold but he will not be there. In that case I do NOT pick Rosen just because he's a QB with good physical abilities. This kid does not IMO have the mental capacity to be a great or good pro QB...not one worth the #2 pick. In that case, if the Giants also feel that way you DON'T take a QB. I don't care if your coach is the all time guru of QB's. You take BPA....and that is...Barkley. Or you can trade down.
Your argument is a knee injury? Really? That is the same for all players. They all have that risk. I am talking about a guy who may be forced to retire early with the concussions he has suffered already. I am talking about a guy that runs a mickey mouse offense and is basically taking a high school QB in terms of development. I am talking about a guy that has had an alarming completion percentage against inferior competition. Every player has upside but that is what the draft is. You evaualte the players on the information you have now and try to project how that player will be able to perform on the toughest stage in the sport. A knee injury doesn't come into play unless medicals point to a player at an increased risk of tearing something.
My argument was that RB's take more hits than any other position. Now I agree with you that every QB in this draft has questions but there were quite a few questions about Jared Goff and Carson Wentz two years ago. The concerns with Goff was the offense in which he played. With Wentz it was the the weak competition he faced at North Dakota State.
To see the Giants trade up to #1 for Darnold. Especially if Cleveland likes Allen, the way some have stated over the past few weeks. Also could see them really liking Rosen. Injury history doesn't concern me, he will be thoroughly evaluated by the draft.
Your argument is a knee injury? Really? That is the same for all players. They all have that risk. I am talking about a guy who may be forced to retire early with the concussions he has suffered already. I am talking about a guy that runs a mickey mouse offense and is basically taking a high school QB in terms of development. I am talking about a guy that has had an alarming completion percentage against inferior competition. Every player has upside but that is what the draft is. You evaualte the players on the information you have now and try to project how that player will be able to perform on the toughest stage in the sport. A knee injury doesn't come into play unless medicals point to a player at an increased risk of tearing something.
My argument was that RB's take more hits than any other position. Now I agree with you that every QB in this draft has questions but there were quite a few questions about Jared Goff and Carson Wentz two years ago. The concerns with Goff was the offense in which he played. With Wentz it was the the weak competition he faced at North Dakota State.
Everybody is human. There are no slam dunks. Everybody will have weaknesses. The problem is that Goff and Wentz arent a good comparison. I was a big fan of Wentz at the time. This isn't hindsight. This year's QB class is such a unique situation. Rosen just looks the part. He is far ahead of all the other QBs in terms of being pro ready. But those medicals are going to be so critical for him. Mayfield is unique and I don't care about his height but in college he was able to run around all over the field or didn't get pressured much. We saw the difference in the first half and second half when Georgia got after him. Allen can make the biggest jump this offseason but why was his completion rate so low? As most QB evaluators will tell you, accuracy is near the top of the list in terms of things you look for. Darnold? Ugh. Why he chose USC with that offense I dont know. What a pathetic offense. It is all speculation with him. You see the potential with him with these crazy throws. I like the scrambling ability but there is so much in between that just leaves you wanting to see more. It is like he didn't develop while he was at USC.
I am not saying none of these guys succeed. What I am saying is missing on the second overall pick with the position we are in is going to be something that ks going to take a long time to overcome. I am also not saying don't draft a QB. There is so much more that goes into being a successful QB that you don't see on the field.
However, this is my take. I was not on board with taking a QB at 2 not because I don't want a QB but because the risk os just crazy with these top guys. With that said, if we took a QB at 2 I would feel a lot better about it with Shurmur here. I think the chances increase of having that QB work out.
Whether they QB or not, I too feel better with Shurm at the helm that he can better develop the QB.
Is the concussions. Him quitting after a year or two because of them scares me.
I would take Darnold if there or try and trade with Denver of the Jets and take Nelson or Fitzpatrick.
Is the concussions. Him quitting after a year or two because of them scares me.
I would take Darnold if there or try and trade with Denver of the Jets and take Nelson or Fitzpatrick.
Could see them going all in for Darnold and trading to 1, similar to Eli. I think Rosen's injury concerns will be put to bed by the draft, given the due diligence that will occur over the next 4 months.
think it increases the chances for Allen. A new coach typically wants his own QB. I still think the Giants may pass on Rosen because of his injury history. I assume the Browns will take Darnold.
But I wouldn't be stunned if the Giants don't take a QB at #2. As someone said, Shurmur is a QB "whisperer." He may well feel he can develop Webb.
Shurmurs offense needs accuracy. Allen doesn’t fit the mold
Darnold is a great fit for the system, so is Rosen.
Barkley would have the most impact on the Giants NEXT year if they decide to go the BPA route.
I am not for the idea of trading down in round 1. Not when you have a chance to land a Franchise QB for your new "QB Whisperer" head coach or a generational talent like Barkley.
Is the concussions. Him quitting after a year or two because of them scares me.
I would take Darnold if there or try and trade with Denver of the Jets and take Nelson or Fitzpatrick.
Could see them going all in for Darnold and trading to 1, similar to Eli. I think Rosen's injury concerns will be put to bed by the draft, given the due diligence that will occur over the next 4 months.
I am not sure concussion concerns could be "put to bed." If Rosen didn't have the two concussions this season I would be very happy if he was the pick at 2. Concussions are very concerning especially with the current state of the Giants offensive line. I just think Rosen is too risky to take at 2.
How is taking a guy at 2 who either didn't start or complete 12 of his last 20 college games, with a concussion history, a shoulder that's already had surgery and a knee injury a no brainier?
Unless of course you're saying someone with no brain would take him at 2.
C'mon, Eman. If we don't re-sign Pugh, we'll need someone who is constantly injured. Otherwise who will everyone bitch about?
Why would it?
If Shurmer is considered a master at mentoring "lesser" QBs (Keenum was undrafted) why wouldn't it equally signify that the NYGs are interested in passing by a QB at #2 and either trading down or take BPA at #2 and take a QB with long term potential in a lower round?
Why would it?
If Shurmer is considered a master at mentoring "lesser" QBs (Keenum was undrafted) why wouldn't it equally signify that the NYGs are interested in passing by a QB at #2 and either trading down or take BPA at #2 and take a QB with long term potential in a lower round?
Because if Shurmur could turn a lesser QB like Keenum into a solid starting QB what could he do with a far more talented QB like Darnold/Rosen/Allen/Mayfield? Do you want to settle for league average or elite?
The real question is, will Shurmer prefer a West Coast Style QB ? Shurmur may prefer a more mobile QB, who is very accurate on the short and intermediate throws.
Mayfield, Darnold , Allen , and Jackson might be more his preference to a pocket passer
The real question is, will Shurmer prefer a West Coast Style QB ? Shurmur may prefer a more mobile QB, who is very accurate on the short and intermediate throws.
Mayfield, Darnold , Allen , and Jackson might be more his preference to a pocket passer
Rosen is accurate on short and intermediate throws as well.
I just hope they don't draft a QB for the sake of it Â
Take one of these guys if they are actually franchise material, not because you have the #2 pick. Taking a QB pretty much prevents us from investing in a 1st round QB for 2-3 years at least, so they need to get it right.
The real question is, will Shurmer prefer a West Coast Style QB ? Shurmur may prefer a more mobile QB, who is very accurate on the short and intermediate throws.
Mayfield, Darnold , Allen , and Jackson might be more his preference to a pocket passer
Rosen is accurate on short and intermediate throws as well.
Rosen’s accuracy has been compared with fellow UCLA alum, Troy Aikman.
How is taking a guy at 2 who either didn't start or complete 12 of his last 20 college games, with a concussion history, a shoulder that's already had surgery and a knee injury a no brainier?
Unless of course you're saying someone with no brain would take him at 2.
C'mon, Eman. If we don't re-sign Pugh, we'll need someone who is constantly injured. Otherwise who will everyone bitch about?
Haha, I hear ya,
Seriously though his injuries are a big concern for me especially the concussions.
I like his talent and think he's the most NFL ready right now and if it weren't for him being so fragile and the injury concerns I'd be all for the Giants taking him at 2. With them though, I'd pass and if Darnold is gone, look to trade back to 5 with Denver.
Why would he draft a QB ? Keenum does not need any Eli "mentoring".
Of course, that would be then end of Eli in NY It would save some money. Keenum has proven he can play ( but won't come cheap)
If it were to come down like this, that eliminates any perceived need to draft a QB and gives us the opportunity to fix the O-line mess
The Giants are going to cut Eli and take a 12 million dollar cap hit to bring over Case Keenum. Keenum has been a great story this year but if the Giants made this move then Gettleman should be fired on the spot. How is Keenum going to do outdoors with the wind in Giants stadium playing with a suspect OL?
Why would he draft a QB ? Keenum does not need any Eli "mentoring".
Of course, that would be then end of Eli in NY It would save some money. Keenum has proven he can play ( but won't come cheap)
If it were to come down like this, that eliminates any perceived need to draft a QB and gives us the opportunity to fix the O-line mess
The Giants are going to cut Eli and take a 12 million dollar cap hit to bring over Case Keenum. Keenum has been a great story this year but if the Giants made this move then Gettleman should be fired on the spot. How is Keenum going to do outdoors with the wind in Giants stadium playing with a suspect OL?
I think the line will have been addressed by the time Keenum took his first live snap, no?
Why would he draft a QB ? Keenum does not need any Eli "mentoring".
Of course, that would be then end of Eli in NY It would save some money. Keenum has proven he can play ( but won't come cheap)
If it were to come down like this, that eliminates any perceived need to draft a QB and gives us the opportunity to fix the O-line mess
The Giants are going to cut Eli and take a 12 million dollar cap hit to bring over Case Keenum. Keenum has been a great story this year but if the Giants made this move then Gettleman should be fired on the spot. How is Keenum going to do outdoors with the wind in Giants stadium playing with a suspect OL?
I think the line will have been addressed by the time Keenum took his first live snap, no?
What are the odds that the Giants will completely fix the offensive line in one off-season? The Vikings did it last year but now everyone acts as though that is now the norm. The truth is that is an anomaly. The Giants have been trying to fix the offensive line for years and now all of a sudden they are going to fix it in a few months?? We may have an entirely new offensive line next year with the likelihood that Flowers is moving to RT or possibly RG.
Shurmur will spend tons of time with Webb. Working him up and down the agenda.
I suppose In Shurmur perhaps as much or more than other options we have a guy who would be well suited to make such a determination.
Well ahead of the date of the NFL draft.
I get what you are saying but the only way you can know about a quarterback is to have him play during the NFL regular season. The moronic New York Giants didn't do that in 2017, even when the season was long gone.
Shurmur will spend tons of time with Webb. Working him up and down the agenda.
I suppose In Shurmur perhaps as much or more than other options we have a guy who would be well suited to make such a determination.
Well ahead of the date of the NFL draft.
I get what you are saying but the only way you can know about a quarterback is to have him play during the NFL regular season. The moronic New York Giants didn't do that in 2017, even when the season was long gone.
One of dumbest decisions from the McAdoo/Reese decision makers.
Shurmur will spend tons of time with Webb. Working him up and down the agenda.
I suppose In Shurmur perhaps as much or more than other options we have a guy who would be well suited to make such a determination.
Well ahead of the date of the NFL draft.
I get what you are saying but the only way you can know about a quarterback is to have him play during the NFL regular season. The moronic New York Giants didn't do that in 2017, even when the season was long gone.
To be fair, they had to find out what they had in Geno Smith...
Shurmur will spend tons of time with Webb. Working him up and down the agenda.
I suppose In Shurmur perhaps as much or more than other options we have a guy who would be well suited to make such a determination.
Well ahead of the date of the NFL draft.
I get what you are saying but the only way you can know about a quarterback is to have him play during the NFL regular season. The moronic New York Giants didn't do that in 2017, even when the season was long gone.
To be fair, they had to find out what they had in Geno Smith...
Why, they didn't invest a 3rd round pick in him like they did Webb.
Shurmur will spend tons of time with Webb. Working him up and down the agenda.
I suppose In Shurmur perhaps as much or more than other options we have a guy who would be well suited to make such a determination.
Well ahead of the date of the NFL draft.
I get what you are saying but the only way you can know about a quarterback is to have him play during the NFL regular season. The moronic New York Giants didn't do that in 2017, even when the season was long gone.
To be fair, they had to find out what they had in Geno Smith...
Why? They knew exactly what they had in Geno Smith. And despite what McAdoo said to Mr. Mara or the press, I don't believe he had any intention of putting Webb in this year. If my memory serves me correctly, he was the only one pushing to get Smith on the team prior to his signing. I suspect he wanted to get Geno on the field to prove his system would work- all he needed was a mobile QB not named Eli Manning.
But, Reese did try - two #1s (Pugh, Flowers); two #2s (Beatty & Richburg), but it didn't work. He (and his staff) just weren't good at picking out good O-line talent . It eventually cost him his job.
So ... the Giants reality is to start over. They have the 2nd pick overall; how often does a GOOD team (six AP ALL-PROs in 2016). First team - Harrison, Collins, Beckham); Second team - Vernon, Jenkins, DRC . ...
Pick 2nd over-all in the draft - THAT is not just an anomaly, it's a rare & Golden opportunity.
we're getting a QB. So unless they think their guy may still be there after a tradedown (And with the 2nd pick they WILL get offers!) I'd expect it anyway. Hope the #1 reason it's Shurmur isn't because he'll just do whatever he's told.
The Wildcard? Mayfield! There's talent there, and if Shurmur wants a mobile QB, could he see a better Case Keenum?
The Browns drafted Trent Richardson with their first pick of the first round when Shurmur was there (Brandon Weeden later in the first). You think he learned his lesson from that?
I thought the sarcasm would be obvious in any mention of Geno Smith Â
Shurmur will spend tons of time with Webb. Working him up and down the agenda.
I suppose In Shurmur perhaps as much or more than other options we have a guy who would be well suited to make such a determination.
Well ahead of the date of the NFL draft.
I get what you are saying but the only way you can know about a quarterback is to have him play during the NFL regular season. The moronic New York Giants didn't do that in 2017, even when the season was long gone.
Well, they wanted to but the fans flipped out.
If they covet a QB available at #2, he'll be the pick Â
In the normal world, you are probably correct. On this board, it probably needs to be specified because while you are being sarcastic, there are a plethora of idiots that hold such opinions to be part of their core beliefs.
I don't think the team knows what it wants to do yet ... Â
Films will be reviewed, there will be many meetings between HC and GM, player evaluations still need to occur. Then they have to decide if Webb can be the future QB, how long they plan to hitch the cart to Eli, do they think they can make a SB run in the next year or two, etc.... Nothing is in stone at this point.
Sitting at 2, with Eli where he is in his career, and not picking a QB Â
to Draft a QB just cuz its a need. This isn't fantasy football guys. You don't pick on need. When you're this high you pick BPA. Now with an older QB if there is a QB that you love there then you take him. IF!!!! To me that QB is Darnold but he will not be there. In that case I do NOT pick Rosen just because he's a QB with good physical abilities. This kid does not IMO have the mental capacity to be a great or good pro QB...not one worth the #2 pick. In that case, if the Giants also feel that way you DON'T take a QB. I don't care if your coach is the all time guru of QB's. You take BPA....and that is...Barkley. Or you can trade down.
Zepp- you are a very very very smart man. This is how I feel exactly.
why QB @ #2 is almost a slam dunk ... BUT we are forgetting the Minny QB situation. We will need a #2 vet regardless if we are trying to get another SB this upcoming season. Then What about Bridgewater or Bradford behind Eli hell even an open competition. If Bridgewater's knee checks out the options at 2 open up immensely.
They will not keep both.
This is assuming the new GM, HC and OC don't like Webb at all (#3). If they think he can be a franchise QB then again we are in for an interesting off-season and draft with options.
researched Webb and like what they see. They are both smart guys who know the position and what they can do with talent at that position. That would be great for us and save our #2 for something else. Wishful thinking.
Was going to possibly be the next coach, my mind immediately told me that the #2 selection was now going to be a QB. Then I started to think about it more, and researched Shurmur a bit more, and you see what he has done with all of these average to below average QBs (Keenum, Foles, McCoy, Bradford). He was able to coax above average to great seasons out of some average QBs.
You also see that almost everywhere he has gone, he has had ELITE running backs (Westbrook, McCoy, Steven Jackson, drafted Cook this year). He puts a heavy emphasis in the run game.
That leads me to believe that he can possibly make do with what he has right now with Eli and Webb, while drafting a Quarterback in rounds 2-4 to compete with Webb for the future spot. If he can make all of the previous QBs look good, he probably figures he can do the same with a much more talented QB in Eli for possibly 2 more years.
Was going to possibly be the next coach, my mind immediately told me that the #2 selection was now going to be a QB. Then I started to think about it more, and researched Shurmur a bit more, and you see what he has done with all of these average to below average QBs (Keenum, Foles, McCoy, Bradford). He was able to coax above average to great seasons out of some average QBs.
You also see that almost everywhere he has gone, he has had ELITE running backs (Westbrook, McCoy, Steven Jackson, drafted Cook this year). He puts a heavy emphasis in the run game.
That leads me to believe that he can possibly make do with what he has right now with Eli and Webb, while drafting a Quarterback in rounds 2-4 to compete with Webb for the future spot. If he can make all of the previous QBs look good, he probably figures he can do the same with a much more talented QB in Eli for possibly 2 more years.
Your theory if correct could bring Saquon Barkley into play at #2 .
With a lot of people on here but probably the best QB for Shurmer system is Baker Mayfield and it’s quite possible we may be able to get him and extra picks. I prefer Rosen and I think we should stay away from Darnold.
With a lot of people on here but probably the best QB for Shurmer system is Baker Mayfield and it’s quite possible we may be able to get him and extra picks. I prefer Rosen and I think we should stay away from Darnold.
I actually agree with this, but if Mayfield is your guy, you take him at 2. It's QB, you don't play around trying to squeeze out every drop of value at that position. It's too important to get right.
The flip side is that they could think Shurmur will resurrect Eli while developing Webb.
But lets hope they decide they have the future set with Shurmur and Rosen.
resurrecting a 38 year old QB, really, I doubt it....
He doesnt need to be resurrected. He just needs some damn help. You have to at least see what he has to offer with a decent OL and a threat of a running game.
But lets hope they decide they have the future set with Shurmur and Rosen.
But I wouldn't be stunned if the Giants don't take a QB at #2. As someone said, Shurmur is a QB "whisperer." He may well feel he can develop Webb.
But lets hope they decide they have the future set with Shurmur and Rosen.
I think they believe that Shurmur can resurrect Eli but they will still take a QB as they will be able to develop a QB on his own terms.
But I wouldn't be stunned if the Giants don't take a QB at #2. As someone said, Shurmur is a QB "whisperer." He may well feel he can develop Webb.
It is hard to predict what the Giants will do but if I had to guess I would say that Darnold is #1 on their board. I have a feeling that by draft day Allen will be a serious canidate to go 2nd overall if the Browns take Darnold. It also wouldn't surprise me if the Browns took Allen 1st.
Who is suggesting they draft a QB because of need? If the Giants truly believe that none of the top 4 QB's are worthy of the 2nd pick then the Giants should trade down and pick up another first round pick next year that they could potentially use to package to move up for a QB then.
The risk is crazy with Barkley also. What if he is the next Trent Richardson. What if he suffers a devastating knee injury during the preseason and is never the same?
I’d imagine Gettleman and his group will involve Shurmur and whoever he hires on the offense to evaluate the QBs in the draft.
Quote:
However, this is my take. I was not on board with taking a QB at 2 not because I don't want a QB but because the risk os just crazy with these top guys. With that said, if we took a QB at 2 I would feel a lot better about it with Shurmur here. I think the chances increase of having that QB work out.
The risk is crazy with Barkley also. What if he is the next Trent Richardson. What if he suffers a devastating knee injury during the preseason and is never the same?
Your argument is a knee injury? Really? That is the same for all players. They all have that risk. I am talking about a guy who may be forced to retire early with the concussions he has suffered already. I am talking about a guy that runs a mickey mouse offense and is basically taking a high school QB in terms of development. I am talking about a guy that has had an alarming completion percentage against inferior competition. Every player has upside but that is what the draft is. You evaualte the players on the information you have now and try to project how that player will be able to perform on the toughest stage in the sport. A knee injury doesn't come into play unless medicals point to a player at an increased risk of tearing something.
How is taking a guy at 2 who either didn't start or complete 12 of his last 20 college games, with a concussion history, a shoulder that's already had surgery and a knee injury a no brainier?
Unless of course you're saying someone with no brain would take him at 2.
Shurmur is 51 or something . He wants to be the Giants coach for 10 years. He nedds a quarterback . What do you think is going to happen? The one possible hedge is if Shurmur and the Vikings had a really positive read on Webb, which is highly unlikely .
In comment 13791237 Zepp said:
Your argument is a knee injury? Really? That is the same for all players. They all have that risk. I am talking about a guy who may be forced to retire early with the concussions he has suffered already. I am talking about a guy that runs a mickey mouse offense and is basically taking a high school QB in terms of development. I am talking about a guy that has had an alarming completion percentage against inferior competition. Every player has upside but that is what the draft is. You evaualte the players on the information you have now and try to project how that player will be able to perform on the toughest stage in the sport. A knee injury doesn't come into play unless medicals point to a player at an increased risk of tearing something.
My argument was that RB's take more hits than any other position. Now I agree with you that every QB in this draft has questions but there were quite a few questions about Jared Goff and Carson Wentz two years ago. The concerns with Goff was the offense in which he played. With Wentz it was the the weak competition he faced at North Dakota State.
Each case is different. In ours Shurmur could have been the favorite because DG wants to go QB.
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Your argument is a knee injury? Really? That is the same for all players. They all have that risk. I am talking about a guy who may be forced to retire early with the concussions he has suffered already. I am talking about a guy that runs a mickey mouse offense and is basically taking a high school QB in terms of development. I am talking about a guy that has had an alarming completion percentage against inferior competition. Every player has upside but that is what the draft is. You evaualte the players on the information you have now and try to project how that player will be able to perform on the toughest stage in the sport. A knee injury doesn't come into play unless medicals point to a player at an increased risk of tearing something.
My argument was that RB's take more hits than any other position. Now I agree with you that every QB in this draft has questions but there were quite a few questions about Jared Goff and Carson Wentz two years ago. The concerns with Goff was the offense in which he played. With Wentz it was the the weak competition he faced at North Dakota State.
Everybody is human. There are no slam dunks. Everybody will have weaknesses. The problem is that Goff and Wentz arent a good comparison. I was a big fan of Wentz at the time. This isn't hindsight. This year's QB class is such a unique situation. Rosen just looks the part. He is far ahead of all the other QBs in terms of being pro ready. But those medicals are going to be so critical for him. Mayfield is unique and I don't care about his height but in college he was able to run around all over the field or didn't get pressured much. We saw the difference in the first half and second half when Georgia got after him. Allen can make the biggest jump this offseason but why was his completion rate so low? As most QB evaluators will tell you, accuracy is near the top of the list in terms of things you look for. Darnold? Ugh. Why he chose USC with that offense I dont know. What a pathetic offense. It is all speculation with him. You see the potential with him with these crazy throws. I like the scrambling ability but there is so much in between that just leaves you wanting to see more. It is like he didn't develop while he was at USC.
I am not saying none of these guys succeed. What I am saying is missing on the second overall pick with the position we are in is going to be something that ks going to take a long time to overcome. I am also not saying don't draft a QB. There is so much more that goes into being a successful QB that you don't see on the field.
Whether they QB or not, I too feel better with Shurm at the helm that he can better develop the QB.
I would take Darnold if there or try and trade with Denver of the Jets and take Nelson or Fitzpatrick.
I would take Darnold if there or try and trade with Denver of the Jets and take Nelson or Fitzpatrick.
Could see them going all in for Darnold and trading to 1, similar to Eli. I think Rosen's injury concerns will be put to bed by the draft, given the due diligence that will occur over the next 4 months.
But I wouldn't be stunned if the Giants don't take a QB at #2. As someone said, Shurmur is a QB "whisperer." He may well feel he can develop Webb.
Shurmurs offense needs accuracy. Allen doesn’t fit the mold
Darnold is a great fit for the system, so is Rosen.
Barkley would have the most impact on the Giants NEXT year if they decide to go the BPA route.
I am not for the idea of trading down in round 1. Not when you have a chance to land a Franchise QB for your new "QB Whisperer" head coach or a generational talent like Barkley.
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Is the concussions. Him quitting after a year or two because of them scares me.
I would take Darnold if there or try and trade with Denver of the Jets and take Nelson or Fitzpatrick.
Could see them going all in for Darnold and trading to 1, similar to Eli. I think Rosen's injury concerns will be put to bed by the draft, given the due diligence that will occur over the next 4 months.
I am not sure concussion concerns could be "put to bed." If Rosen didn't have the two concussions this season I would be very happy if he was the pick at 2. Concussions are very concerning especially with the current state of the Giants offensive line. I just think Rosen is too risky to take at 2.
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No brainer.
How is taking a guy at 2 who either didn't start or complete 12 of his last 20 college games, with a concussion history, a shoulder that's already had surgery and a knee injury a no brainier?
Unless of course you're saying someone with no brain would take him at 2.
C'mon, Eman. If we don't re-sign Pugh, we'll need someone who is constantly injured. Otherwise who will everyone bitch about?
If Shurmer is considered a master at mentoring "lesser" QBs (Keenum was undrafted) why wouldn't it equally signify that the NYGs are interested in passing by a QB at #2 and either trading down or take BPA at #2 and take a QB with long term potential in a lower round?
If Shurmer is considered a master at mentoring "lesser" QBs (Keenum was undrafted) why wouldn't it equally signify that the NYGs are interested in passing by a QB at #2 and either trading down or take BPA at #2 and take a QB with long term potential in a lower round?
Because if Shurmur could turn a lesser QB like Keenum into a solid starting QB what could he do with a far more talented QB like Darnold/Rosen/Allen/Mayfield? Do you want to settle for league average or elite?
Mayfield, Darnold , Allen , and Jackson might be more his preference to a pocket passer
Mayfield, Darnold , Allen , and Jackson might be more his preference to a pocket passer
Rosen is accurate on short and intermediate throws as well.
Why would he draft a QB ? Keenum does not need any Eli "mentoring".
Of course, that would be then end of Eli in NY It would save some money. Keenum has proven he can play ( but won't come cheap)
If it were to come down like this, that eliminates any perceived need to draft a QB and gives us the opportunity to fix the O-line mess
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The real question is, will Shurmer prefer a West Coast Style QB ? Shurmur may prefer a more mobile QB, who is very accurate on the short and intermediate throws.
Mayfield, Darnold , Allen , and Jackson might be more his preference to a pocket passer
Rosen is accurate on short and intermediate throws as well.
Rosen’s accuracy has been compared with fellow UCLA alum, Troy Aikman.
The $$ part of dumping Eli.
http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2017/11/will_giants_cut_eli_manning_now_in_2018_salary_cap.html
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In comment 13791243 Optimus-NY said:
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No brainer.
How is taking a guy at 2 who either didn't start or complete 12 of his last 20 college games, with a concussion history, a shoulder that's already had surgery and a knee injury a no brainier?
Unless of course you're saying someone with no brain would take him at 2.
C'mon, Eman. If we don't re-sign Pugh, we'll need someone who is constantly injured. Otherwise who will everyone bitch about?
Haha, I hear ya,
Seriously though his injuries are a big concern for me especially the concussions.
I like his talent and think he's the most NFL ready right now and if it weren't for him being so fragile and the injury concerns I'd be all for the Giants taking him at 2. With them though, I'd pass and if Darnold is gone, look to trade back to 5 with Denver.
Why would he draft a QB ? Keenum does not need any Eli "mentoring".
Of course, that would be then end of Eli in NY It would save some money. Keenum has proven he can play ( but won't come cheap)
If it were to come down like this, that eliminates any perceived need to draft a QB and gives us the opportunity to fix the O-line mess
The Giants are going to cut Eli and take a 12 million dollar cap hit to bring over Case Keenum. Keenum has been a great story this year but if the Giants made this move then Gettleman should be fired on the spot. How is Keenum going to do outdoors with the wind in Giants stadium playing with a suspect OL?
I suppose In Shurmur perhaps as much or more than other options we have a guy who would be well suited to make such a determination.
Well ahead of the date of the NFL draft.
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Why would he draft a QB ? Keenum does not need any Eli "mentoring".
Of course, that would be then end of Eli in NY It would save some money. Keenum has proven he can play ( but won't come cheap)
If it were to come down like this, that eliminates any perceived need to draft a QB and gives us the opportunity to fix the O-line mess
The Giants are going to cut Eli and take a 12 million dollar cap hit to bring over Case Keenum. Keenum has been a great story this year but if the Giants made this move then Gettleman should be fired on the spot. How is Keenum going to do outdoors with the wind in Giants stadium playing with a suspect OL?
I think the line will have been addressed by the time Keenum took his first live snap, no?
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In comment 13791356 Manny in CA said:
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Why would he draft a QB ? Keenum does not need any Eli "mentoring".
Of course, that would be then end of Eli in NY It would save some money. Keenum has proven he can play ( but won't come cheap)
If it were to come down like this, that eliminates any perceived need to draft a QB and gives us the opportunity to fix the O-line mess
The Giants are going to cut Eli and take a 12 million dollar cap hit to bring over Case Keenum. Keenum has been a great story this year but if the Giants made this move then Gettleman should be fired on the spot. How is Keenum going to do outdoors with the wind in Giants stadium playing with a suspect OL?
I think the line will have been addressed by the time Keenum took his first live snap, no?
What are the odds that the Giants will completely fix the offensive line in one off-season? The Vikings did it last year but now everyone acts as though that is now the norm. The truth is that is an anomaly. The Giants have been trying to fix the offensive line for years and now all of a sudden they are going to fix it in a few months?? We may have an entirely new offensive line next year with the likelihood that Flowers is moving to RT or possibly RG.
Just mention it because it has been mentioned here - as a point of discussion.
Whether it's Eli, Keenum or anybody else, as long as we're stuck with this O-line that QB is going to struggle.
I suppose In Shurmur perhaps as much or more than other options we have a guy who would be well suited to make such a determination.
Well ahead of the date of the NFL draft.
I get what you are saying but the only way you can know about a quarterback is to have him play during the NFL regular season. The moronic New York Giants didn't do that in 2017, even when the season was long gone.
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Shurmur will spend tons of time with Webb. Working him up and down the agenda.
I suppose In Shurmur perhaps as much or more than other options we have a guy who would be well suited to make such a determination.
Well ahead of the date of the NFL draft.
I get what you are saying but the only way you can know about a quarterback is to have him play during the NFL regular season. The moronic New York Giants didn't do that in 2017, even when the season was long gone.
One of dumbest decisions from the McAdoo/Reese decision makers.
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Shurmur will spend tons of time with Webb. Working him up and down the agenda.
I suppose In Shurmur perhaps as much or more than other options we have a guy who would be well suited to make such a determination.
Well ahead of the date of the NFL draft.
I get what you are saying but the only way you can know about a quarterback is to have him play during the NFL regular season. The moronic New York Giants didn't do that in 2017, even when the season was long gone.
To be fair, they had to find out what they had in Geno Smith...
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In comment 13791370 Beezer said:
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Shurmur will spend tons of time with Webb. Working him up and down the agenda.
I suppose In Shurmur perhaps as much or more than other options we have a guy who would be well suited to make such a determination.
Well ahead of the date of the NFL draft.
I get what you are saying but the only way you can know about a quarterback is to have him play during the NFL regular season. The moronic New York Giants didn't do that in 2017, even when the season was long gone.
To be fair, they had to find out what they had in Geno Smith...
Why, they didn't invest a 3rd round pick in him like they did Webb.
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In comment 13791370 Beezer said:
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Shurmur will spend tons of time with Webb. Working him up and down the agenda.
I suppose In Shurmur perhaps as much or more than other options we have a guy who would be well suited to make such a determination.
Well ahead of the date of the NFL draft.
I get what you are saying but the only way you can know about a quarterback is to have him play during the NFL regular season. The moronic New York Giants didn't do that in 2017, even when the season was long gone.
To be fair, they had to find out what they had in Geno Smith...
Why? They knew exactly what they had in Geno Smith. And despite what McAdoo said to Mr. Mara or the press, I don't believe he had any intention of putting Webb in this year. If my memory serves me correctly, he was the only one pushing to get Smith on the team prior to his signing. I suspect he wanted to get Geno on the field to prove his system would work- all he needed was a mobile QB not named Eli Manning.
But, Reese did try - two #1s (Pugh, Flowers); two #2s (Beatty & Richburg), but it didn't work. He (and his staff) just weren't good at picking out good O-line talent . It eventually cost him his job.
So ... the Giants reality is to start over. They have the 2nd pick overall; how often does a GOOD team (six AP ALL-PROs in 2016). First team - Harrison, Collins, Beckham); Second team - Vernon, Jenkins, DRC . ...
Pick 2nd over-all in the draft - THAT is not just an anomaly, it's a rare & Golden opportunity.
The Wildcard? Mayfield! There's talent there, and if Shurmur wants a mobile QB, could he see a better Case Keenum?
The Browns drafted Trent Richardson with their first pick of the first round when Shurmur was there (Brandon Weeden later in the first). You think he learned his lesson from that?
...then the Giants are saying, "We believe Eli Manning can take us deep into the playoffs and a shot at the Super Bowl."
To which I would reply, "We are royally screwed."
I'm sure he'll evaluate him on tape, as will DG.
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Shurmur will spend tons of time with Webb. Working him up and down the agenda.
I suppose In Shurmur perhaps as much or more than other options we have a guy who would be well suited to make such a determination.
Well ahead of the date of the NFL draft.
I get what you are saying but the only way you can know about a quarterback is to have him play during the NFL regular season. The moronic New York Giants didn't do that in 2017, even when the season was long gone.
Well, they wanted to but the fans flipped out.
In the normal world, you are probably correct. On this board, it probably needs to be specified because while you are being sarcastic, there are a plethora of idiots that hold such opinions to be part of their core beliefs.
No thanks.
I think if it is Shurmur, trade down and maybe snag Mayfield. The QB whisperer with Baker would be awesome!
Zepp- you are a very very very smart man. This is how I feel exactly.
They will not keep both.
This is assuming the new GM, HC and OC don't like Webb at all (#3). If they think he can be a franchise QB then again we are in for an interesting off-season and draft with options.
No thanks.
I think if it is Shurmur, trade down and maybe snag Mayfield. The QB whisperer with Baker would be awesome!
You also see that almost everywhere he has gone, he has had ELITE running backs (Westbrook, McCoy, Steven Jackson, drafted Cook this year). He puts a heavy emphasis in the run game.
That leads me to believe that he can possibly make do with what he has right now with Eli and Webb, while drafting a Quarterback in rounds 2-4 to compete with Webb for the future spot. If he can make all of the previous QBs look good, he probably figures he can do the same with a much more talented QB in Eli for possibly 2 more years.
You also see that almost everywhere he has gone, he has had ELITE running backs (Westbrook, McCoy, Steven Jackson, drafted Cook this year). He puts a heavy emphasis in the run game.
That leads me to believe that he can possibly make do with what he has right now with Eli and Webb, while drafting a Quarterback in rounds 2-4 to compete with Webb for the future spot. If he can make all of the previous QBs look good, he probably figures he can do the same with a much more talented QB in Eli for possibly 2 more years.
I actually agree with this, but if Mayfield is your guy, you take him at 2. It's QB, you don't play around trying to squeeze out every drop of value at that position. It's too important to get right.
But lets hope they decide they have the future set with Shurmur and Rosen.
resurrecting a 38 year old QB, really, I doubt it....
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The flip side is that they could think Shurmur will resurrect Eli while developing Webb.
But lets hope they decide they have the future set with Shurmur and Rosen.
resurrecting a 38 year old QB, really, I doubt it....
He doesnt need to be resurrected. He just needs some damn help. You have to at least see what he has to offer with a decent OL and a threat of a running game.
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would be gross negligence...
Unless the team thinks they already have their future QB and wants to roll the dice to strengthen the team in other areas.
My statement stands...
They found out this year why the guy never played. He was not ready and terrible
Maybe Webb wasnt ready? What that means is that he would be a danger to himself and others on the field