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Interesting blurb from Albert Breer on NYG coaching search

Sean : 1/16/2018 7:56 am
Quote:
• The Giants were always going to prioritize finding their type of guy—candidates were going to have to fit them, not the other way around—and that’s a reason why Shurmur landed the job in New York. The Vikings offensive coordinator has an easy way about him, and has shown a great ability to manage crisis over the last two years in Minnesota. His work with the quarterbacks hasn’t been bad either, which should help in making a decision on Eli Manning’s future, and what to do with the second pick.


Some people will look at this as a negative, but it makes sense. The Giants operate a certain way and it has worked. Only team in the NFL to have a Super Bowl title in each of the last 4 decades in addition to another appearance in 2000. A lot of teams are trying to adopt the Patriots way & the Packers stayed in house for their hire.

Reading this makes me think Shurmur was the guy all along. If you recall, Garafolo & Rapoport never bought into the idea that Patricia was a lock, and Rapoport was touting Shurmur for the gig. It’s clear McDaniels wanted a say in the GM or in the least wanted experience working with him, and ultimately that’s what Patricia opted for as well. All things considered, Shurmur checks off the boxes and has the experience Mara wanted.
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Eric  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 10:27 am : link
One of the quotes that stuck in mind re: the search was something to the effect that "his presentation wowed them". He has a clear plan and vision and apparently they think he can pull it off.

I'm less concerned with how he handles high maintenance guys - I'm more concerned with his pick of coordinators and what his take on the O-Line is.
I like  
DG : 1/16/2018 10:28 am : link
the choice. That said, I think Wilks' upside is higher than any other candidate. We'll see in 5 years. I really like Wilks.
Eric  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 10:29 am : link
It's your site - screw blowback
New way of looking at it  
Breeze_94 : 1/16/2018 10:31 am : link
McDaniels was McAdoo level bad in Denver and is a huge douceh. Patricia looks like a garden gnome.
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 10:32 am : link
In comment 13791857 bc4life said:
Quote:
One of the quotes that stuck in mind re: the search was something to the effect that "his presentation wowed them". He has a clear plan and vision and apparently they think he can pull it off.

I'm less concerned with how he handles high maintenance guys - I'm more concerned with his pick of coordinators and what his take on the O-Line is.


Yeah, I mentioned above that both Shurmur and Patricia wowed them. (supposedly)
Re: motivators  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 10:35 am : link
What is a motivator - guy who gives a fiery speech? Sometimes, sometimes it's done with a whisper, a look, aloofness, example.

That may be overrated. Certainly there are moments in time, events, when you need that - personally I think a lot has to do with getting the right players - isn't that what BB or even Parcells does? "His guys"

Schwartz - m-eh, okay but certainly no burning bush.

I've got no clue if this guy is the right pick, but obviously we all hope for the best.

Next big questions - what does he think of Webb, or the draft QBs. WTF is wrong with the O-Line and how to fix it - along those lines - who will his coordinators be?


I think it will be way more interesting if he doesn't take Spags.
Its very common, even when replacing a manager in a business,  
PatersonPlank : 1/16/2018 10:38 am : link
to go the safe route after getting rid of a flaming situation and employee. The last thing anyone wants is a redo of the last year of the The Mac.
RE: Eric  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/16/2018 10:39 am : link
In comment 13791857 bc4life said:
Quote:


I'm less concerned with how he handles high maintenance guys - I'm more concerned with his pick of coordinators and what his take on the O-Line is.


ITA as it pertains to Odell Beckham in particular. I think 99% of the stuff with Odell is overblown horsecrap anyway. If Odell blows off practice or isn't giving his all on the field... call me then. The guys doing that horseshit are the people a coach really has to worry about.

I also agree that the future coaching staff is a major early barometer for Shurmur. I like Spags A LOT, but I think this team needs new voices/eyes and the defensive room in particular needs an experienced "heavy hand". In addition, there's NO WAY POSSIBLE that Tom Quinn can still have a job here.
picking a HC  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 10:40 am : link
IMO, unless you have a crystal ball - ain't nothing safe, some are just safer
RE: Yup  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 1/16/2018 10:42 am : link
In comment 13791560 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
but let's not sugarcoat this either. Shurmur was the "safe" pick for coach just like Gettleman was the "safe" pick for GM. "Safe" is OK, but will it lead to excellence? Only time well tell.

The other issue with Shurmur is he is pretty milktoast.


What the hell is milktoast?
RE: bc4life  
giants#1 : 1/16/2018 10:43 am : link
In comment 13791843 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Inspiring would be the reaction, "YES! We just hired (blank)!!!!"

Most fans are like, "OK, he's good. We could have done worse."

Again, this may be the best moving forward, but let's not kid ourselves. I wrote what I did above before I read Paul Schwartz's column this morning. This is what he said:



Quote:


Q: Is this a good choice for the Giants?

A: It is a safe choice, a solid choice, perhaps not the most inspiring choice, but it is hard to say it is the wrong choice. Picking a coach on the offensive side of the ball is smart, as now there will not be a go-between when it comes to the head coach dealing with the quarterback. There are no red flags with Shurmur, no worry about his compatibility with the Giants’ structure. Is he a renowned motivator when addressing the whole room? That is supposedly not his forte, but we shall see.

A Spagnuolo return? What Pat Shurmur means for Giants - ( New Window )


If Shurmur was 10 years (a la McDaniels), or even 5 years, younger would the choice be viewed as more "inspired"? Both have had success as OCs and flopped as HCs (spectacularly in JMs case).

Fans, rightly or wrongly, view PS as a "retread' with all its negative connotations because he's >50, whereas JM is a rising star.

I wanted a defensive guy (Patricia), but Shurmur is definitely a good choice and has the experience and connections to put together a strong staff. I also love that he's shown an ability to adapt his offensive philosophy to maximize the talent he has. On paper at least, there's no way that Vikings offense should be more productive than this Giants O.
Eric  
RinR : 1/16/2018 10:43 am : link
I don't recall anyone being inspired by Parcells' hire in 1982. And that was a move made from within.

I also think you are putting too much stock in Shurmur's "milktoast" demeanor. Not all successful coaches have been spit-spewing, sideline lunatics like Cowher. I know you know that.
Tom Landry  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 10:45 am : link
come to mind as a quieter, reserved presence on the sidelines - yes/no?
RE: RE: Yup  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/16/2018 10:47 am : link
In comment 13791920 LawrenceTaylor56 said:
Quote:



What the hell is milktoast?


bland or uninteresting.
I get what Eric is saying  
JonC : 1/16/2018 10:48 am : link
I'm not sure that inspiring pick was out there, given BB is locked up and the older retreads had been absent from the league for a decade. Even the hottest assistants didn't inspire a WOW, imv.
RE: I'm not going to lie..  
trueblueinpw : 1/16/2018 10:49 am : link
In comment 13791700 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Being a dick isn't a game-breaker. Not having respect is - you can't lead without respect. Indy probably fits him well so he can outdick Irsay.


For whatever reason, I really like the verb outdick and I suggest we all try to use it in at least three sentences this week.
RE: I get what Eric is saying  
blueblood : 1/16/2018 10:52 am : link
In comment 13791960 JonC said:
Quote:
I'm not sure that inspiring pick was out there, given BB is locked up and the older retreads had been absent from the league for a decade. Even the hottest assistants didn't inspire a WOW, imv.


Wow factor dont win games. Coaching and talent does. I dont care if he is a HOT name or not.
RE: RE: RE: Yup  
BillKo : 1/16/2018 10:52 am : link
In comment 13791958 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13791920 LawrenceTaylor56 said:


Quote:





What the hell is milktoast?



bland or uninteresting.
\

Or, Ben McAdoo.
Top HC Personalities  
giants#1 : 1/16/2018 10:53 am : link
BB, Carroll, Reid, Tomlin are arguably the top HCs in the league and the others coached playoff teams this season:

Milk Toast
BB
Andy Reid
Doug Pederson
Doug Marrone
Mike Mularkey
Sean McDermott?

Enthusiastic
Pete Carroll
Mike Tomlin
Mike Zimmer
Rivera
McVay
Dan Quinn
Sean Payton

Is it really a pre-requisite to have an enthusiastic coach?
LawrenceTaylor56  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 10:56 am : link
mild, boring

You can even read a NJ.com article from an Eagles beat writer saying that was his reputation in Philly. You don't need to take my word (or the beat writer's word) for it... just watch any interview with the guy.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Yup  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/16/2018 10:56 am : link
In comment 13791994 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 13791958 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13791920 LawrenceTaylor56 said:


Quote:





What the hell is milktoast?



bland or uninteresting.

\

Or, Ben McAdoo.


I wouldn't say he was bland. Towards the end he was a raving lunatic with his cliche usage.
giants#1  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 10:57 am : link
No, but it is an observation and one of the supposed "knocks" on the guy. This isn't just coming from me.
RE: giants#1  
giants#1 : 1/16/2018 10:59 am : link
In comment 13792022 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
No, but it is an observation and one of the supposed "knocks" on the guy. This isn't just coming from me.


Sure, but it's partly a "knock" solely because his predecessor lacked a personality and was a major flop. If McAdoo was the rah-rah type, then fans would be knocking any prospective candidate that wasn't milk toast.
giants#1  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 11:02 am : link
Could be, but I think New Yorkers tend to gravitate towards guys who demonstrate a bit more passion. Again, as you point out, this maybe a non-issue. But we'll have to see how the players respond to his personality.
Schwartz was just on WFAN saying  
Chris684 : 1/16/2018 11:03 am : link
the question with Shurmur remains "if he can remove the laminated diner menu from in front of his face" and lead a team.
and  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 11:03 am : link
when I say New Yorkers, I'm talking about fans, not players. How a coach "sells" with the fans is important.
McAdoo  
AcesUp : 1/16/2018 11:08 am : link
was stubborn, arrogant and condescending. Those personality traits did him in more than his energy.

The Shurmur knock is valid but it isn't necessary to build a winner, there's a long list of boring guys that have had success. There's an aura surrounding Belichick now, but it's not like he was ever the life of the party and going to bowl you over with charisma.

I'd also like to see what kind of staff Shurmur builds here before criticizing this aspect of his hire. He can color in his weaknesses with the right coaches.
RE: Re: motivators  
Section331 : 1/16/2018 11:09 am : link
In comment 13791895 bc4life said:
Quote:
What is a motivator - guy who gives a fiery speech? Sometimes, sometimes it's done with a whisper, a look, aloofness, example.


Agreed, I do think it is overblown a bit. I've seen clips of Belichick in the locker room, he is hardly the rah rah type. You just have to show players who is in charge, and not take any shit. We'll see if Shurmer is that guy.
AcesUp  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 11:09 am : link
Belichick is dreadful with his interviews. If you based a coach on press interactions, you'd think he was one of the worst in the NFL.
RE: and  
giants#1 : 1/16/2018 11:11 am : link
In comment 13792052 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
when I say New Yorkers, I'm talking about fans, not players. How a coach "sells" with the fans is important.


True, but if the players buy-in and the results are good, fans will back the coach no matter how milk toast and dickish they are (BB the ultimate example).

The offensive players in MN certainly seem to love playing for Shurmur.
This is why when fans are holding the pitchforks..  
Sean : 1/16/2018 11:13 am : link
to fire the coach, it is mostly wrong. McAdoo needed to be replaced, but it’s never a given. From 2013, the only hired coach is Andy Reid. Everyone else fired.

There is no perfect candidate.
RE: AcesUp  
AcesUp : 1/16/2018 11:19 am : link
In comment 13792073 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Belichick is dreadful with his interviews. If you based a coach on press interactions, you'd think he was one of the worst in the NFL.


Miserable. I'd be hesitant to hire him as a middle manager at a small company let alone the defacto CEO of a billion dollar entity. You just never know.
RE: RE: We'll probably be taking an enormous risk at #2  
Thegratefulhead : 1/16/2018 11:38 am : link
In comment 13791736 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 13791731 AcesUp said:


Quote:


If this truly is a "safe" pick and that's the direction they went, it's a smart play from a risk management perspective. You can't be rolling the dice at every turn, you e gotta make some hedges, round out that portfolio a little bit. That selection will define the franchise more than anything and this coach gives that pick the greatest chance of success.



^^^ THIS ^^^^

This is the best argument for Shurmur.

I've preached for weeks... they got to get the GM, HC, and QB right.
Eh....I think we just have to get the QB pick right. If that happens, the other 2 look good. IMHO it is always about the QB. O'brien was Meh, then Watson blew it up, they all look good. Philly go it right with Wentz, it's all good. Shurmur is interesting because he made Keenum look good, no one else has. I get the feeling Shurmur had the best answer to "What's your plan?" in the interview process. I bet it was detailed and flexible. I would guess he said something like, "Keenum has a noodle arm and we designed and we offense for him on the fly after the injury. I can make Eli work...This is how. You want to go new, we can do that too, this is how. If we draft (insert Josh, Baker, Sam here) we can do this. You get me the OL and DL and I can do the rest.
It's milquetoast, BTW  
Kevin_in_Pgh : 1/16/2018 11:52 am : link
;-)
RE: RE: Eric  
twostepgiants : 1/16/2018 12:28 pm : link
In comment 13791692 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 13791670 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


can't you say that about every candidate?



No. For better or worse, "jazzier" candidates would normally include a big name (i.e., at least talk to Saban or some high profile college coach) or an up-and-coming coordinator who has held the position for a number of years and who is credited with the success of that unit.

It may or may not have been smart to talk to Gruden or Cowher, but was it considered? Was Belichick considered? (Those who automatically laugh at the idea forget there was a time when Parcells wanted to come back and the Giants said no - we only learned that years later).



Eric, you seem to be lamenting the Fassel over Bill Parcells hire in 1997

Would Parcells have done any better?

They both coached the same amount of games from that point forward

Fassel was 58-53-1 in his Giants years

He was 2-3 in the playoffs.

Parcells was 63-48-1 with Jets & Dallas

He was 1-3 in playoffs

Fassel had the Trey Junkin botched FG to lise playoff game.
Parcells had Tony Romo botched FG to lose playoff game

Fassel did win an NFC Championship and coach in the Super Bowl
Kind of silly to equate Parcells 1997 with Belichick today  
Greg from LI : 1/16/2018 12:33 pm : link
Parcells was always a nomadic coach. Outside of his ten seasons with the Giants as DC and HC, he never stayed anywhere else for more than four years, and that includes all of his college coaching jobs. For better or worse, he seems like a guy that always wanted new challenges.

Belichick has been with New England for eighteen seasons. He runs the show up there, unless you choose to believe the rumors that Kraft is suddenly butting in, which I don't. He's never shown any inclination to leaving.
RE: RE: I get what Eric is saying  
JonC : 1/16/2018 12:41 pm : link
In comment 13791991 blueblood said:
Quote:
In comment 13791960 JonC said:


Quote:


I'm not sure that inspiring pick was out there, given BB is locked up and the older retreads had been absent from the league for a decade. Even the hottest assistants didn't inspire a WOW, imv.



Wow factor dont win games. Coaching and talent does. I dont care if he is a HOT name or not.


Suit yourself, me think a different tune would be sung if NYG somehow pried BB loose from NE.
RE: and  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/16/2018 12:46 pm : link
In comment 13792052 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
when I say New Yorkers, I'm talking about fans, not players. How a coach "sells" with the fans is important.


I'd say this is true but only to a point. Everybody was on board with McAdoo until they started losing.

Winning covers up a lot. Belichick doesn't get away with 90% of his public persona without winning.
RE: It's milquetoast, BTW  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/16/2018 1:31 pm : link
In comment 13792222 Kevin_in_Pgh said:
Quote:
;-)

twostepgiants  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 1:40 pm : link
If you are asking me if I would have preferred Parcells over Fassel, the answer is yes.
Thegratefulhead  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 1:42 pm : link
We just witnessed six years of having a good quarterback and a poor OL, running game, special teams, and too often, defense.

It's more than the QB.
Eric is right  
GiantTuff1 : 1/16/2018 1:50 pm : link
this place went dead after the Shurmur news broke.

Heading into this process I was hoping for champagne popping pictures of excitement for the new hire thread. That may have been possible maybe for BB, or Patricia could have garnered that. McDaniels to a lesser extent. Nobody else really from the interview crop,and like Eric said they didn't go farther for high profile candidates from what we know, which was disappointing... and of the whole lot, Shurmur was likely the least inspiring from a fan perspective.

Shurmur's probably a guy Mara can enjoy at his backyard BBQ, or someone you'd want as your son's little league coach, but does he have what it takes to do the big job?

This team needs a kick in the pants, some infusion of fire and new concepts, and Shurmur... Meh.

I literally had no reaction to the hire.

Double down on "Meh" from the fanbase if he keeps old coaches (I'm personally not against Spags).

I hope he does well, but this fan base is not going to be overly patient for a coaching hire they aren't excited about... He may be under the crossfire of fans from the get go because of it, and the only people to blame will be Giants management for botching decision after decision the past several years. It's been a cumulative cascade.
RE: Thegratefulhead  
Thegratefulhead : 1/16/2018 2:04 pm : link
In comment 13792582 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
We just witnessed six years of having a good quarterback and a poor OL, running game, special teams, and too often, defense.

It's more than the QB.
Eli is and always has been a dependent QB. If we draft the next (Brady, Rodgers, Brees, P Manning ect) We will be in a VERY Good spot. These QB have all had some poor OLs, lousy running games and injuries but they raise the level of play of those around them. I love Eli, he is the "man" in my book. It isn't ALL about the QB, but in the NFL you have one or you don't. I think Shurmur is the right guy to pick and develop that guy. Shurmur has made a few (just a guy) look good. All that said I was excited about Wilks because of his fire and ability to relate. I think Wilks could have said things to OBJ that Shurmur cannot. Still, Wilks would have have made first time HC mistakes that Shurmur likely will not make....Get off the ledge man, it is going to be good. I hope :)
Thegratefulhead  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 3:14 pm : link
I hear ya, but we'll agree to disagree. I think you got to get the GM and HC right, in addition to the QB.
RE: AcesUp  
BillKo : 1/16/2018 3:37 pm : link
In comment 13792073 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Belichick is dreadful with his interviews. If you based a coach on press interactions, you'd think he was one of the worst in the NFL.


But how long has he done that? Earlier in his career....was he more loquacious with the press?

I tend to think as he became more and more successful, and kept hearing stupid questions from certain press people, he just started shutting it down, meaning I don't really have time for this crap!

He's actually quite interesting in sit down interviews.
how do people on this board know that Shurmer has the job  
Jersey55 : 1/16/2018 5:02 pm : link
especially since he is still committed to his team in the playoffs, have the Giants been tampering against the league rules...
RE: And outside of someone like Tom Coughlin  
81_Great_Dane : 1/16/2018 5:09 pm : link
In comment 13791796 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
didn't we just get the best guy out there?


I am not crazy about the whole idea of "the best guy out there."

Guys are good at different things, and are good in different situations. The Giants are a different situation than the Lions, Cards or Titans.

The Giants like stability, so first they need a guy who can restore order and right the ship. They also need a guy who can manage the QB transition, help nurture their next QB whether that's Webb or someone else, and someone who can grow with the team. Shurmur fits at least some of that profile.

RE: twostepgiants  
twostepgiants : 1/16/2018 6:13 pm : link
In comment 13792575 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
If you are asking me if I would have preferred Parcells over Fassel, the answer is yes.


Eric, I understand. Everyone would. Its Parcells. he’s better than Fassel. But a lot of that was based on the past.

But judging by the results, they basically did the same exact thing over ensuing 7 years that they coached. Maybe even a slight edge to Fassel. He won an NFC Title.

Im not so sure that Parcells could have done much better than Jim Fassel did during those 7 years. Would Parcells have delivered a title in those 7 years with the same players? Im not sure any coach could have won with what Fassel had at QB. Brown, Graham, Kanell and Collins. Maybe they could have been more consistent. But would they actually have delivered a Super Bowl title?

I love Parcells. Im not knocking him.

My point is - even a big name like Saban or Cowher or Gruden or even Belichick may not be the right move. The right move meaning the best available candidate at he time that can get the team to achieve as high as they can with the talent given.

I agree with you The Giants are in terrible shape. Worse than people realize. They need to be stripped down. The culture has been destroyed. The team identity of football has been lost. A QB needs to be found.

First and foremost, the ship needs to be righted. Super Bowls are a long way off. If Shurmur can right the ship, he’s the right hire. Even if we have to fire him in 4-5 seasons for not winning a championship.

Rebuild this team, establish an identity, restore the culture. Get a QB. That’s the job Shurmur needs to accomplish right now. Championships will come after that happens- by him or the next guy.
RE: how do people on this board know that Shurmer has the job  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/16/2018 6:14 pm : link
In comment 13793107 Jersey55 said:
Quote:
especially since he is still committed to his team in the playoffs, have the Giants been tampering against the league rules...


The Cardinals reopening their interviews and interviewing Munchak should probably clue you in that Arizona knows something about the Shurmer hire -- since the two teams that wanted Shurer were Arizona and NY
RE: RE: AcesUp  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/16/2018 11:26 pm : link
In comment 13792885 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 13792073 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Belichick is dreadful with his interviews. If you based a coach on press interactions, you'd think he was one of the worst in the NFL.



But how long has he done that? Earlier in his career....was he more loquacious with the press?

I tend to think as he became more and more successful, and kept hearing stupid questions from certain press people, he just started shutting it down, meaning I don't really have time for this crap!

He's actually quite interesting in sit down interviews.


He was never personable at any point in interacting with the press or on camera. It's not a new thing. I too have seen it written and said that he's got quite a personality away from cameras, but his personality was the same in Cleveland if you believe the stories, part of why George Young wanted nothing to do with Belichick taking the HC job after Parcells.
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