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Interesting blurb from Albert Breer on NYG coaching search

Sean : 1/16/2018 7:56 am
Quote:
• The Giants were always going to prioritize finding their type of guy—candidates were going to have to fit them, not the other way around—and that’s a reason why Shurmur landed the job in New York. The Vikings offensive coordinator has an easy way about him, and has shown a great ability to manage crisis over the last two years in Minnesota. His work with the quarterbacks hasn’t been bad either, which should help in making a decision on Eli Manning’s future, and what to do with the second pick.


Some people will look at this as a negative, but it makes sense. The Giants operate a certain way and it has worked. Only team in the NFL to have a Super Bowl title in each of the last 4 decades in addition to another appearance in 2000. A lot of teams are trying to adopt the Patriots way & the Packers stayed in house for their hire.

Reading this makes me think Shurmur was the guy all along. If you recall, Garafolo & Rapoport never bought into the idea that Patricia was a lock, and Rapoport was touting Shurmur for the gig. It’s clear McDaniels wanted a say in the GM or in the least wanted experience working with him, and ultimately that’s what Patricia opted for as well. All things considered, Shurmur checks off the boxes and has the experience Mara wanted.
Yup  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 8:15 am : link
but let's not sugarcoat this either. Shurmur was the "safe" pick for coach just like Gettleman was the "safe" pick for GM. "Safe" is OK, but will it lead to excellence? Only time well tell.

The other issue with Shurmur is he is pretty milktoast.
And ThatLimerickGuy posted awhile ago that...  
Milton : 1/16/2018 8:17 am : link
...the Giants were targeting Shurmur.
RE: Yup  
Sean : 1/16/2018 8:18 am : link
In comment 13791560 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
but let's not sugarcoat this either. Shurmur was the "safe" pick for coach just like Gettleman was the "safe" pick for GM. "Safe" is OK, but will it lead to excellence? Only time well tell.

The other issue with Shurmur is he is pretty milktoast.


That is what will be interesting to watch & it likely will drive fans nuts as it does Jet fans with Bowles. I thought all along the Giants will go ‘safe’, I thought it would be Mike Smith. I think no doubt McAdoo scared Mara.
Sean  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 8:21 am : link
Pure speculation on my part, but this definitely feels like Mara. (But what do I know?)

I just hope Shurmur has a behind-the-scenes edge to him because he will need it with this group.
RE: Yup  
TheMick7 : 1/16/2018 8:26 am : link
In comment 13791560 Eric from BBI said:
[quote] but let's not sugarcoat this either. Shurmur was the "safe" pick for coach just like Gettleman was the "safe" pick for GM. "Safe" is OK, but will it lead to excellence? Only time well tell.

The other issue with Shurmur is he is pretty milktoast. [/quote

To me,Shurmur will look & sound like Vince Lombardi after having had to listen to McAdoo's drool. At least we know Shurmur has the experience & preparation for the role of HC as opposed to McAdoo,who was a rush hire(why couldn't we have let Philly have him?) & won in his 1st year because Reese spent $200 million on the D & Spags D won games for him(which is why,with a healthy D,Shurmur should keep Spags as DC).Shurmur is a solid hire!
Calling...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/16/2018 8:26 am : link
Shumur safe means that there are much riskier guys out there.

And I'm not even sure Patricia or McD was going to come here, so any commentary on them really is moot.

I guess Wilks is a wildcard due to his inexperience, but calling Shurmur safe vs. Wilks is really just semantics.

I guess I look at the only safe choice as being Coughlin or a person you know exactly what you're getting. To imply that Shurmur's ceiling is lower because of his demeanor or that an unknown's ceiling is higher is pure speculation.
Well  
mdthedream : 1/16/2018 8:28 am : link
it cant get worse than the shit show we watched this year. Give me a guy that is not afraid to make a change with personal during the preseason and season. Everyone could see that we needed to make some player changes on the Oline during preseason.
RE: Sean  
M.S. : 1/16/2018 8:36 am : link
In comment 13791568 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Pure speculation on my part, but this definitely feels like Mara. (But what do I know?)

I just hope Shurmur has a behind-the-scenes edge to him because he will need it with this group.

"...behind-the scenes edge to him..." Make that a very SHARP edge!!!
RE: Calling...  
Sean : 1/16/2018 8:39 am : link
In comment 13791574 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Shumur safe means that there are much riskier guys out there.

And I'm not even sure Patricia or McD was going to come here, so any commentary on them really is moot.

I guess Wilks is a wildcard due to his inexperience, but calling Shurmur safe vs. Wilks is really just semantics.

I guess I look at the only safe choice as being Coughlin or a person you know exactly what you're getting. To imply that Shurmur's ceiling is lower because of his demeanor or that an unknown's ceiling is higher is pure speculation.


Good point. Coughlin was safe in 2004 with his resume. There was no ‘safe’ pick here. They all carry risks. I think experience did matter here.
I guess "Safe" is better than "DoomsDay"?  
ZogZerg : 1/16/2018 8:41 am : link
But, maybe not?
Sean...  
M.S. : 1/16/2018 8:41 am : link

...interesting post.

But why make this comment?

"Only team in the NFL to have a Super Bowl title in each of the last 4 decades in addition to another appearance in 2000."

Technically, true... but you almost make it sound like we're a more successful franchise than the Pats.

And what good is a long perspective when then last 6 years have essentially sucked?
RE: Yup  
Boy Cord : 1/16/2018 8:48 am : link
In comment 13791560 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
but let's not sugarcoat this either. Shurmur was the "safe" pick for coach just like Gettleman was the "safe" pick for GM. "Safe" is OK, but will it lead to excellence? Only time well tell.

The other issue with Shurmur is he is pretty milktoast.


Coughlin was a safe pick, no? They just stepped out of their comfort zone (or at least their template) with McAdoo.
RE: Calling...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 8:49 am : link
In comment 13791574 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Shumur safe means that there are much riskier guys out there.

And I'm not even sure Patricia or McD was going to come here, so any commentary on them really is moot.

I guess Wilks is a wildcard due to his inexperience, but calling Shurmur safe vs. Wilks is really just semantics.

I guess I look at the only safe choice as being Coughlin or a person you know exactly what you're getting. To imply that Shurmur's ceiling is lower because of his demeanor or that an unknown's ceiling is higher is pure speculation.


If we cut out speculation, then there is no forum. If speculation makes you uncomfortable, I can see why you would have a problem with a fan forum.

The Giants earned the benefit of the doubt after 2007 and 2011. They lost that benefit of the doubt with the last six years of mismanagement.

Five years from now, we me be praising Shurmur and thanking our lucky stars we hired him. But as of January 16, 2018, I'm going to call it like I see it. This was an uninspiring group of only four candidates and the Giants picked one of those four. Two were previously head coaches who were fired. Both know the drill so Mara and Gettleman know there isn't a big learning curve for Shurmur. He also has the added benefit of knowing how to groom QBs, which will be huge when and if they draft a QB with the first pick.

Huh??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/16/2018 8:51 am : link
Quote:
And what good is a long perspective when then last 6 years have essentially sucked?


Aren't you answering your own question? The long view shows we've been consistently successful since the 80's. The only team to win a SB in the past 4 decades.

The short view is saying we've been below average in recent years (yet still won a SB in 2011).

And even in the response that the last 6 years have essentiallyh sucked, you chose a time frame that correlated to after the SB win and conveniently glides over the fact we made the playoffs last year.

I'm not even going to address the comparison to the Pats, as if there's a ton of teams like them and we are the outliers.
Boy Cord  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 8:52 am : link
That game works both ways. Bill Parcells was a horribly risky selection and almost fired. Dan Reeves was a very safe pick.

There is no hidden formula for success. But of the four candidates, Shurmur was the safest. Methinks had the Giants picked one of the other four, you would be defending that selection instead of Shurmur right now.
Look  
PaulN : 1/16/2018 8:56 am : link
We are all concerned with Mara's track record now, all of us should be. But Shurmur is the guy and now we have to hope he does well, there is no way of telling if a guy will be decent or mediocre, like Fassel, bad like McAdoo and Handley, or very good like Coughlin and Parcells.

Thinking back I remember when we hired Dan Reeves, he appeared in 3 SuperBowls but got blown out in all of them, in one season he got the good players left here on his side and turned around the franchise. Things looked real good, even LT was saying how good a coach Reeves was and how happy the defense is again.

Then the power struggle began, him vs. the Giants head of scouting, Tom Boisture, then George Young got involved, and the front office gets fractured, and the team falls apart after one good season. Reeves at worst seemed like a safe pick, it turned out to be a bad.

Fassel was a real chance, no experience, it turned out pretty good, we had some good seasons with him and a SuperBowl appearance, after 7 seasons he lost the team.

Coughlin coming here was a pretty safe hire when we grabbed him, but there was some real pushback from the fans when we hired him, very similar to where we are now, as a safe and familiar pick he turned out to be a great choice.

We are all fans that love the Giants, and get caught up in all this, over the next few seasons we will learn how good or bad this hire is, because it is a huge hire, going down further or staying where we are is a pretty dismal thought. Safe or risky in of themselves are neither good nor bad, it comes down to the people themselves. Gettleman and Shurmur will forever be linked together, are they ready to step up?
Coughlin  
jvm52106 : 1/16/2018 8:57 am : link
as THE choice but far from safe. In fact, he was the complete opposite of Fassel which was why many players had a hard time buying in on the new rules adn strict environment.

To 2003 was way better than 2017 as far as issues goes. We had a decent QB though it was time to start looking for the guy, some weapons at WR, TE and RB and some on defense. BUT, we had some tough personalities that were really just doing whatever the hell they wanted.

This team has more "pieces" on defense than they do on offense but they also have way more controversial issues and personality issues than the 2003 team. Moving on from KC to Eli (with Kurt Warner) is not nearly the problem that Eli presents this off season. The talent at WR is woefully thin and our best one is a headcase no matter how fans want to sugarcoat it. He has to be managed and directed (his energy and persona) for the good of the team. TE is fairly set but needs to be used far better than this past season. RB HUGE question mark but can easily be a committee style approach similar to Minnesota and New England (many backs performing jobs at average to above average results). Our Oline is a disaster... Nothing else to be said there.

Shurmur might be a great choice, at the moment I am more blah about it. I was hoping for McDaniels and a fresh feel to our offense and if that didn't work then I was hoping for Patricia..


Are other coaching searches more exhaustive??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/16/2018 8:59 am : link
Is choosing between 4 candidates imply the search was not conducted well?

Quote:
But as of January 16, 2018, I'm going to call it like I see it. This was an uninspiring group of only four candidates and the Giants picked one of those four. Two were previously head coaches who were fired


I can't really think of many coaching searches that bring in many more candidates and can't think of any NYG search that has.

You can call the list uninspiring, but you probably should pick a target on what's inspiring to find a comparison. Patricia and McD have been part of the most successful run in the NFL - post SB era. Shurmur has consistently improved the offenses of the teams he's been with, including the sad sack Rams, where at the time, he had the best year to year improvement in NFL history (not sure if that's since been exceeded).

To me, this coaching search has been a typical one, either for the Giants or any other team. We looked at several successful coordinators and offered one the job.

If none of these guys were inspiring, you can call it as you see it, but I'd opine that you're seeing it wrong.
Eric...thank you  
Chris684 : 1/16/2018 9:06 am : link
For your responses on this thread.

It's like you are a castoff if you feel like all signs with Shurmur point to a very "safe" Mara pick. I don't know how anyone can argue this the case.

I remember starting a thread on Dottino's interview with WFAN towards the end of the season. He said the Giants would go with a "50-ish" or so year old coordinator with previous HC experience and wouldnt ya know it? Also important to note this was pre-Gettleman being hired.

Prior head coaching experience is terrific, even more so when you can actually point to it as a worthwhile accomplishment. What is to be learned from Shurmur's couple of years in Cleveland in what we all know is a rudderless environment?

We all want Shurmur to be a 10+ year success. I'll be hoping that every day he is on the job. Now that it has been unofficially agreed upon, I'll be very curious to see what happens with the DC post and QB position. Both areas that need a rebirth as far as I'm concerned.
Hope I'm dead  
ryanmkeane : 1/16/2018 9:07 am : link
wrong but it appears Mara came into this search with pre qualifications and if they weren't met, the candidate had more than an uphill climb. Shurmur "checked" all of those boxes that Mara so brilliantly discussed with the media. My guess? He killed the interview, showed that he was more than prepared for the gig and had a steady hand. His work with offense and QBs is well noted, and he learned from his time as HC in Cleveland. He is also a guy that will not be asking for any type of control with personnel, which McDaniels seems to want (if not now, but possibly eventually).

Shurmur is by all accounts a good man and a good coach. He just seems so god damn sleepy, but as discussed, let's hope he has some understated fire in there that can get this team going.

FatMan in Charlotte  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 9:10 am : link
We'll agree to disagree on this. In overly-simplistic terms, what I saw was:

- Two regurgitated head coaches, both which were fired. McDaniels was an utter disaster in Denver. Shurmur at least had decent "excuses" for failing (the Browns being the Browns, ownership change, etc.).

- One first-year defensive coordinator.

- One long-standing defensive coordinator whose defense may have been more due to the head coach running the team.


I didn't have a favorite in this because I know this is a crapshoot. My original guess was that it would be Wilks. But in hindsight, I think Mara - for better of worse - may have gotten scared off by the McAdoo similarities. (But again, pure speculation). Shurmur supposedly wowed the Giants in his interview (as did Patricia).

My biggest problem with Shurmur right now is personality. He seems VERY mild. But I am basing that all on public interviews. We shall see.

I think his coordinator selections will be key. If they keep Spags, I consider that a red flag. I am a little suspicious right now because of the offensive guys are jumping ship but only our DL coach has left.
Furthermore  
Chris684 : 1/16/2018 9:13 am : link
When we hear Gettleman talk about the successes of the defensive HC and read reports about how he "couldnt wait" to get Wilks in front of NYG ownership, are we supposed to believe that was all fake and he didnt really feel that way?

I was hoping to feel like Gettleman really spearheaded this coaching selection and Shurmur doesnt give off that feeling, at least not to me.
Coughlin was a safe pick..  
Chris in Philly : 1/16/2018 9:14 am : link
and that led to excellence. It happens.
let me put this  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 9:15 am : link
in more general teams...

I would be surprised if Gettleman and Shurmur don't make us at the very least a competitive team. Both of these guys are competent. Depending on the QB situation, I could see us going 8-8 next year with the right personnel moves.

My question is what is the ceiling moving forward in 2019 and 2020. Gettleman will be approaching 70. Shurmur has to prove he knows how to build a playoff contender.
Eric..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/16/2018 9:16 am : link
I understand the point you're making. I'm just saying that you don't often have "inspiring" choices when searches like this come about. I was intrigued by Wilks too, but even being here in Carolina, you don't hear a lot about him. McDermott was often discussed as a possible HC candidate. wilks name really only came up because of a connection to Gettleman, and it looks like his other possible openings closed before he could interview, or he interviewed and wasn't chosen.

Everyone talks about how this offseason is crucial for the team. The GM hire looks like we have a competent guy. The HC hire is always going to be an unknown. We have to trust that he can lead the team and develop players, but at least by bringing in a guy with experience, who had developed QB's and has had successful offenses, you hope it is the best move for the team.

Frankly, if we are looking at a #2 pick that may be a QB, and we are looking for a quick turnaround and revamp of the offense, then an offensive guy seems like a good choice.

I do think the extreme failure of Mac plays a part here. And it probably sealed Wilks fate.
Eric  
UConn4523 : 1/16/2018 9:19 am : link
can't you say that about every candidate?
Mara's always been close to the vest, conservative  
micky : 1/16/2018 9:21 am : link
owners. Bland type..but has worked for them for most part
I don't know any of the candidates very well,  
Ira : 1/16/2018 9:22 am : link
so i can't say who's the best. Of the group, Shurmur has the best resume. Also, he has done a great job with the Vikings offense. I agree that the choice of defensive coordinator will be a key move for him and the team. Of he aces that, I'll be feeling very optimistic.
FatMan in Charlotte  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 9:22 am : link
Agree completely that this may have been the best choice given the fact where we are at in the QB process. He will be a tremendous asset for Webb, probably the first pick, and even Eli (if Eli is still here).

Look, I am not condemning the pick. But if you read the reactions to this, even from Giants "inside sources" in today's papers... they all say Shurmur is "solid." Solid is good, but it isn't "inspiring." But maybe that is what the team needs.
RE: Coughlin was a safe pick..  
gmen9892 : 1/16/2018 9:22 am : link
In comment 13791662 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
and that led to excellence. It happens.


Coughlin also wasnt a dynamo, personality-wise, when he first came here in 2004. He was known as a disciplinarian that wasn't exactly outgoing and cheery. It took him until 2007 to change his ways and personality to the outside world.

RE: Furthermore  
JonC : 1/16/2018 9:23 am : link
In comment 13791660 Chris684 said:
Quote:
When we hear Gettleman talk about the successes of the defensive HC and read reports about how he "couldnt wait" to get Wilks in front of NYG ownership, are we supposed to believe that was all fake and he didnt really feel that way?

I was hoping to feel like Gettleman really spearheaded this coaching selection and Shurmur doesnt give off that feeling, at least not to me.


No necessarily, it just likely means as the process played out there was a candidate who rose above DG in their collective eyes.

BBI needs to learn how to view things more fluidly, things may and do change on a dime.
Not hiring  
ryanmkeane : 1/16/2018 9:24 am : link
a guy with little experience because of what happened with McAdoo is complete bullshit. I sincerely hope that wasn't the factor in not hiring Wilks.
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 9:27 am : link
In comment 13791670 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
can't you say that about every candidate?


No. For better or worse, "jazzier" candidates would normally include a big name (i.e., at least talk to Saban or some high profile college coach) or an up-and-coming coordinator who has held the position for a number of years and who is credited with the success of that unit.

It may or may not have been smart to talk to Gruden or Cowher, but was it considered? Was Belichick considered? (Those who automatically laugh at the idea forget there was a time when Parcells wanted to come back and the Giants said no - we only learned that years later).
If Shurmur  
ryanmkeane : 1/16/2018 9:27 am : link
keeps Spags because he gave him a job as OC in St. Louis, I agree with Eric - that's a major red flag. Also - this lovefest that ownership has with Spags is pretty fucking weird at this point. The guy has been in charge of 2 of the worst defenses in Giants history, one of which was the worst in NFL history. We get that he won us a super bowl. That was fun. It was also 11 years ago. Time to move on. If Mara can't see that, I don't trust him to make other decisions...like the head coach.
RE: Furthermore  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/16/2018 9:28 am : link
In comment 13791660 Chris684 said:
Quote:
When we hear Gettleman talk about the successes of the defensive HC and read reports about how he "couldnt wait" to get Wilks in front of NYG ownership, are we supposed to believe that was all fake and he didnt really feel that way?

I was hoping to feel like Gettleman really spearheaded this coaching selection and Shurmur doesnt give off that feeling, at least not to me.


I'm not sure why this is the way you're approaching this. No, you're not supposed to believe it was all fake. Gettleman could have really wanted to give him a shot, Wilks could have just been okay in his interview, and the people in charge could have simply agreed he wasn't the best choice.
Well they could be  
NikkiMac : 1/16/2018 9:29 am : link
Grooming Abrams for the job and using Gettleman as a stop gap

Giants have always and under this ownership will always conduct business

Their way.
ryanmkeane  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 9:29 am : link
You'll see me go (blanking) ballistic if we keep Quinn.
I'm not going to lie..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/16/2018 9:30 am : link
in the absence of information that's really damning, I'd support almost any hire. It's what you have to hope for as fans - that the right decisions are made. We know they aren't always or else we wouldn't have had the disasterous 2017.

The only hire I'd be very critical of is McDaniels and that's only because I have inside info on how much of a dick he is and how he isn't respected by players or team support staff.

Being a dick isn't a game-breaker. Not having respect is - you can't lead without respect. Indy probably fits him well so he can outdick Irsay.
Eric  
BigBlueShock : 1/16/2018 9:30 am : link
Who exactly are the “inspiring” candidates that you think they should have interviewed? And why does being mild mannered equal “safe”? How is Shurmur a safer pick than anyone else? Does having more experience equal safe? And why is safe a bad thing? Why would you assume Shurmers ceiling is lower than any random coach with no HC experience?
Fatman  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 9:31 am : link
McDaniels does seem like a dick. So does Schwartz.


It will be VERY interesting to see how Shurmur deals with Odell Beckham.
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 9:32 am : link
In comment 13791702 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
Who exactly are the “inspiring” candidates that you think they should have interviewed? And why does being mild mannered equal “safe”? How is Shurmur a safer pick than anyone else? Does having more experience equal safe? And why is safe a bad thing? Why would you assume Shurmers ceiling is lower than any random coach with no HC experience?


I think I answered all of your questions above.
A coach with experience is more reassuring. Safe is the wrong word  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/16/2018 9:33 am : link
Norv Turner is 'experienced'. After much trial and error we know he isn't a head coach at this level. Experience isn't a measure of can-do. It's just a way for fans to justify a hiring and feel good about it. There are plenty of success stories of head coaches with comparatively little experience.
Fat Man  
ryanmkeane : 1/16/2018 9:34 am : link
how can you say you'd support any hire based on the way the last hire went down? It's pretty apparent that Mara completely made the wrong choice in McAdoo and made the wrong choice in letting Reese stay on 2 years ago. He also royally fucked up the Eli thing (which I'm over at this point).

Mara has been faced with multiple big time decisions and the results have not been good with any of them. How can you blindly trust this hire?
BigBlueShock  
ryanmkeane : 1/16/2018 9:36 am : link
the point of hiring a coach is not to hire the guy with the highest floor. It is to hire the guy with the highest ceiling that will lead you to a championship. You're right, Shurmur will most likely not be a disaster. That shouldn't be the reason you hire someone.
RE: FatMan in Charlotte  
Mike in NY : 1/16/2018 9:38 am : link
In comment 13791657 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
We'll agree to disagree on this. In overly-simplistic terms, what I saw was:

- Two regurgitated head coaches, both which were fired. McDaniels was an utter disaster in Denver. Shurmur at least had decent "excuses" for failing (the Browns being the Browns, ownership change, etc.).

- One first-year defensive coordinator.

- One long-standing defensive coordinator whose defense may have been more due to the head coach running the team.


I didn't have a favorite in this because I know this is a crapshoot. My original guess was that it would be Wilks. But in hindsight, I think Mara - for better of worse - may have gotten scared off by the McAdoo similarities. (But again, pure speculation). Shurmur supposedly wowed the Giants in his interview (as did Patricia).

My biggest problem with Shurmur right now is personality. He seems VERY mild. But I am basing that all on public interviews. We shall see.

I think his coordinator selections will be key. If they keep Spags, I consider that a red flag. I am a little suspicious right now because of the offensive guys are jumping ship but only our DL coach has left.


On Defense, outside of Graham, we don't have a position coach that really has much of a connection to any other organization or a track record of strong units. Spags isn't going to jump ship to be a position coach next season. Considering his ties to Shurmur/Gettleman/Ownership I could see him being offered some front office position if the Giants want to make a clean break from McAdoo tenure and to prevent issues on the coaching staff (previous interim head coach coaching under new head coach)
RE: Sean  
Joey in VA : 1/16/2018 9:41 am : link
In comment 13791568 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Pure speculation on my part, but this definitely feels like Mara. (But what do I know?)

I just hope Shurmur has a behind-the-scenes edge to him because he will need it with this group.
Apparently he’s a huge hard ass who Andy Reid told to lighten up a bit.
Lighten up Francis - ( New Window )
RE: Yup  
BillKo : 1/16/2018 9:43 am : link
In comment 13791560 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
but let's not sugarcoat this either. Shurmur was the "safe" pick for coach just like Gettleman was the "safe" pick for GM. "Safe" is OK, but will it lead to excellence? Only time well tell.

The other issue with Shurmur is he is pretty milktoast.


if he has a heart beat he'll be a major upgrade over the bore fest for a coach we just had...........
We'll probably be taking an enormous risk at #2  
AcesUp : 1/16/2018 9:43 am : link
If this truly is a "safe" pick and that's the direction they went, it's a smart play from a risk management perspective. You can't be rolling the dice at every turn, you e gotta make some hedges, round out that portfolio a little bit. That selection will define the franchise more than anything and this coach gives that pick the greatest chance of success.
RE: BigBlueShock  
BigBlueShock : 1/16/2018 9:45 am : link
In comment 13791714 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
the point of hiring a coach is not to hire the guy with the highest floor. It is to hire the guy with the highest ceiling that will lead you to a championship. You're right, Shurmur will most likely not be a disaster. That shouldn't be the reason you hire someone.

How do you know what Shurmurs ceiling is? He doesn’t yell and scream so it must be low, right?
RE: We'll probably be taking an enormous risk at #2  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 9:45 am : link
In comment 13791731 AcesUp said:
Quote:
If this truly is a "safe" pick and that's the direction they went, it's a smart play from a risk management perspective. You can't be rolling the dice at every turn, you e gotta make some hedges, round out that portfolio a little bit. That selection will define the franchise more than anything and this coach gives that pick the greatest chance of success.


^^^ THIS ^^^^

This is the best argument for Shurmur.

I've preached for weeks... they got to get the GM, HC, and QB right.
The flip side..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/16/2018 9:45 am : link
is how can I blindly dislike the hire just because McAdoo didn't work out?

Quote:
Fat Man
ryanmkeane : 9:34 am : link : reply
how can you say you'd support any hire based on the way the last hire went down? It's pretty apparent that Mara completely made the wrong choice in McAdoo and made the wrong choice in letting Reese stay on 2 years ago. He also royally fucked up the Eli thing (which I'm over at this point).

Mara has been faced with multiple big time decisions and the results have not been good with any of them. How can you blindly trust this hire?


It isn't easy to stay competitive in the NFL. I didn't agree with retaining Reese, as I'd have let him go with Coughlin, but it is really tough to make those calls. Reese built a SB team. He has managed the cap well. He's been a steady GM. He also has blind spots at LB and OL and his attempts to address those positions failed and caused dominoes to tumble. McAdoo was simply a bad hire, but it's easy to see why he was brought on board. The offense under him as OC was productive. Nevermind that it was basically TC's offense.

People get caught up in lineage, even BBI does. Look at the calls for Pats assistants. Look at the love for GB people. McAdoo was a GB guy, and he tried to bring their offense here. Mara, like many of us, failed to see that absent Rodgers, that offense blows. But people get blinded by the GB mystique.

Hell, several BBI'ers were critical that the team didn't look at Eliot Wolf. Why? Because his dad is Ron and he's with GB?

It happens. As a fan, I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt, partially out of homerism, and partially out of a lack of information to the contrary. We'll all see if it fails, so at least enjoy this time now as one with hope.

That's the way I look at it, yet I'm often called a grumpy bastard.
Hopefully if he's the choice, he's a great choice  
arniefez : 1/16/2018 9:46 am : link
but it's pretty easy to see why out of the 3 front runners he'd be the choice. The other two wanted no part of an Owner picking players and a GM in between that Owner and the CEO Owner. Head Coach for the Giants is a middle management job. That's not what Belichick's guys are looking for.
RE: I'm not going to lie..  
SirLoinOfBeef : 1/16/2018 9:47 am : link
In comment 13791700 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
in the absence of information that's really damning, I'd support almost any hire. It's what you have to hope for as fans - that the right decisions are made. We know they aren't always or else we wouldn't have had the disasterous 2017.

The only hire I'd be very critical of is McDaniels and that's only because I have inside info on how much of a dick he is and how he isn't respected by players or team support staff.

Being a dick isn't a game-breaker. Not having respect is - you can't lead without respect. Indy probably fits him well so he can outdick Irsay.


After watching him get bitch-slapped by Brady on national television this year, I had very little faith in him as a HC.
BigBlueShock  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 9:48 am : link
As I said above, this is all a crapshoot.

But Shurmur is well-travelled "journeyman" who was 9-23 in Cleveland (admittedly a tough situation, but still a .281 winning percentage) who hasn't been high on anyone's wish list for HC since. In fact, two years ago, he was "only" a tight ends coach until his promotion to OC again.

He's a coach's coach. Again, the word everyone seems to use with him is "solid."
I bet Eli is excited...  
Strip-Sack : 1/16/2018 9:48 am : link
about this hire. Of course this assumes he’s still in their plans but, if he does remain, it appears we now have a coach and a starting QB well versed in various different schemes and with flexible/adaptable mindsets....IMO this is a very good thing moving forward and will accelerate any learning curve and lend itself to creative schemes and more “in game” adjustments....it always seemed to me that the previous regime was far to rigid and were constantly forcing square pegs into round holes.
RE: RE: Eric  
BigBlueShock : 1/16/2018 9:49 am : link
In comment 13791709 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 13791702 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


Who exactly are the “inspiring” candidates that you think they should have interviewed? And why does being mild mannered equal “safe”? How is Shurmur a safer pick than anyone else? Does having more experience equal safe? And why is safe a bad thing? Why would you assume Shurmers ceiling is lower than any random coach with no HC experience?



I think I answered all of your questions above.

You listed Gruden, Cowher and Belichek as your unsafe options. Gruden was obviously going to the Raiders for $100M. Cowher has said a billion times that he’s not interested in coaching and Belichek has a job and I’m sure Kraft would just go ahead and let him interview with the Giants. Come on now. I’m surprised you didn’t mention Parcells too
RE: Hopefully if he's the choice, he's a great choice  
BillKo : 1/16/2018 9:49 am : link
In comment 13791740 arniefez said:
Quote:
but it's pretty easy to see why out of the 3 front runners he'd be the choice. The other two wanted no part of an Owner picking players and a GM in between that Owner and the CEO Owner. Head Coach for the Giants is a middle management job. That's not what Belichick's guys are looking for.


Owner picks the players?

I just learned something today about NYG.
RE: RE: Sean  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/16/2018 9:49 am : link
In comment 13791728 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 13791568 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Pure speculation on my part, but this definitely feels like Mara. (But what do I know?)

I just hope Shurmur has a behind-the-scenes edge to him because he will need it with this group.

Apparently he’s a huge hard ass who Andy Reid told to lighten up a bit. Lighten up Francis - ( New Window )


Well, that's a bit concerning

Holmgren also noted that Shurmur read every word that was written when he was running the Browns, something he won’t be able to do in New York because there will be a lot more words.

“I told him, ‘You can’t let it get to you,'” Holmgren said. “‘Don’t create an adversarial situation.’ I tried to counsel him that way.”
Fat Man  
ryanmkeane : 1/16/2018 9:50 am : link
no issue at all with you being optimistic or choosing to side with ownership on the hire. I'm usually optimistic too. I always defended Reese (especially for the 2011 title). Was just trying to say that lately, Mara's decision making has been pretty brutal.
Ryan..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/16/2018 9:51 am : link
my hope is that Gettleman's usually excellent decision making outweighs Mara's.
Like Ross's status (he was promptly canned) with Gettleman...  
Chris684 : 1/16/2018 9:51 am : link
What happens with Spagnuolo will be a a pretty good indication of the type of hire this was.

If Shurmur brings in his own new staff, then I am completely wrong and would be happy to say so.

If Spagnuolo, and a lot of his defensive coaches stick around, this is going to be accepted by a fanbase that has been calling out and frustrated by "half measure" type decisions dating back to 2013 now.

I guess we'll find out soon enough.
RE: Hope I'm dead  
gmenatlarge : 1/16/2018 9:53 am : link
In comment 13791649 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
wrong but it appears Mara came into this search with pre qualifications and if they weren't met, the candidate had more than an uphill climb. Shurmur "checked" all of those boxes that Mara so brilliantly discussed with the media. My guess? He killed the interview, showed that he was more than prepared for the gig and had a steady hand. His work with offense and QBs is well noted, and he learned from his time as HC in Cleveland. He is also a guy that will not be asking for any type of control with personnel, which McDaniels seems to want (if not now, but possibly eventually).

Shurmur is by all accounts a good man and a good coach. He just seems so god damn sleepy, but as discussed, let's hope he has some understated fire in there that can get this team going.


Not a good lead-in to your post.
RE: Ryan..  
ryanmkeane : 1/16/2018 9:53 am : link
In comment 13791752 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
my hope is that Gettleman's usually excellent decision making outweighs Mara's.

That's fair. I like Gettleman and think he was the right choice. But ultimately, it looked like Mara picked the coach.
gmenatlarge  
ryanmkeane : 1/16/2018 9:54 am : link
I've stated numerous times that Shurmur is a good football coach who knows offense and QBs. There are lots of guys like that in the NFL. Doesn't mean he's HC material.
I'll say this..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/16/2018 9:56 am : link
in comparison to the Mac hire. I feel that the giants took their time to do intensive interviews and there is a logic behind their selection. I didn't feel that way with Mac. If you fired TC and retained Reese and the coordinators, you basically signaled that it was TC's sole fault.

This time, I feel that Gettleman has a voice and that the out of the pool they interviewed that they made the best choice. I preferred Patricia, but that's absent any real knowledge, just feel as a fan.

I at least understand this hire. I understood the TC hire. I never understood the Mac hire.
BigBlueShock  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 9:58 am : link
I first mentioned college head coaches and long-term successful assistants largely held responsible for their unit's success - you know the kind of candidates that other teams often interview. But you chose to ignore that.

The Gruden-Cowher-Belichick picks are obviously more long-shot type selections, but Gruden has been linked to the Giants in the past. So has Cowher (who despite what he has said publicly, those close to him have said he would consider the Giants...might not be a good idea, but I wonder if this was even considered?). As for Belichick... again there is public posturing and what people say and feel in private. Likely? Hell no. But impossible? I would wager not.
RE: I'll say this..  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 9:59 am : link
In comment 13791768 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
in comparison to the Mac hire. I feel that the giants took their time to do intensive interviews and there is a logic behind their selection. I didn't feel that way with Mac. If you fired TC and retained Reese and the coordinators, you basically signaled that it was TC's sole fault.

This time, I feel that Gettleman has a voice and that the out of the pool they interviewed that they made the best choice. I preferred Patricia, but that's absent any real knowledge, just feel as a fan.

I at least understand this hire. I understood the TC hire. I never understood the Mac hire.


Agree with this too.
As Most Super successful people realize  
chiro56 : 1/16/2018 10:02 am : link
Good is the enemy of great. There is little growth in Comfort. Mara was pushed to the wall with the shitshow this Giant season became. He was forced out of his comfort zone by circumstances created by being comfortable. Rebuilding and reorganizing this Giant Heritage will take being super uncomfortable for Mara, players, and fans. The progression has started. We all hope the Giants are heading in the right direction.
I dont think his demeanor in interviews belies anything  
Jim in Forest Hills : 1/16/2018 10:02 am : link
about the discipline or accountability he will demand. Plenty of quiet guys are very stern and commanding. Especially when what they say for you to do works!
And outside of someone like Tom Coughlin  
Jim in Forest Hills : 1/16/2018 10:05 am : link
who exactly is out there that was a successful head coach and is currently available?

John Fox?
Lovie Smith?

Those guys to me would be "safe" treadmill picks, you know what you are going to get.

Flip side of that coin is a young coordinator, can you find the next Sean Mcvay? We tried already and got McAdoo.

So unless we're coaxing TC back or looking at Wilks as some kind of savior, didn't we just get the best guy out there?
I don't think there was any one 'best' guy out there.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/16/2018 10:07 am : link
.
RE: BigBlueShock  
twostepgiants : 1/16/2018 10:09 am : link
Eric, from what I gathered Shurmur has heavily considered for the Eagles HC job and just lost out to Pederson. It didnt seem like a courtesy interview like the Giants gave to Spags at all.
RE: Fatman  
Section331 : 1/16/2018 10:09 am : link
In comment 13791708 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:

It will be VERY interesting to see how Shurmur deals with Odell Beckham.


That is a good question, but it can't be worse than McAdoo.
Section331  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 10:12 am : link
Things can always get worse.
I'm with you on this Eric.  
Emlen'sGremlins : 1/16/2018 10:15 am : link
The Giants didn't conduct themselves like the storied, flagship franchise they are. They created no separation with the Cardinals, Colts and Lions and pigeonholed themselves into the candidates that the market produced. How about targeting your own special candidate like the Raiders did with Gruden? After the incompetence and stink of McAdoo we really needed a strong, successful HC to remove the odor from that toxic locker room. Shurmur is Mikey Milktoast. Maybe they can get Belichick or Saban to come here two years from now when we're back in the market once again.
Eric  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 10:16 am : link
Define "inspiring pick" - it's such a crap shoot.

BB's coaching tree has produced more failures than successes, if any successes.

Wilks - position coach who could relate to players.

Don't forget, he's not coaching by himself - he'll have coordinators - position coaches.

RE" mismanagement - I think they had the right plan but really bad execution. Fix the O-Line was job 1 - 2 number 1s and a 2, and some high round FAs - abysmal ROI

Mara may not have wanted McAdoo but Marrone  
twostepgiants : 1/16/2018 10:17 am : link
I just looked through the archives and found several guys like Raanan and ESPN guys saying Mara wanted Marrone.

Are we sure that McAdoo was Mara’s hire?
Jim in Fairfax  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 10:18 am : link
Quote:
So unless we're coaxing TC back or looking at Wilks as some kind of savior, didn't we just get the best guy out there?


The "best guy out there"? Odds say no. It's a crapshoot. There are dozens and dozens of candidates who were qualified who weren't interviewed. Again, think of successful OCs and DCs around the league. Think coaching ranks. Many teams go VERY risky and hire the younger "up-and-coming" coordinator now.

The downside to this is the risk. (See McAdoo) McDaniels was the hot coordinator hired by Denver and that was a disaster. Belichick failed in Cleveland and went onto become the greatest ever in New England. Cowher was a special teams coach who went onto great success. Landry was a DC. Etc., etc.

I understand the rationale for Shurmur... solid, safe, unlikely to flame out, great with QBs on a team that is going to make a QB transition. He may have been the best given the situation right now. But the upside is the question mark. Can he inspire and lead a team? Can he handle Eli Apple, Odell Beckham, Janoris Jenkins, etc.?
RE: Mara may not have wanted McAdoo but Marrone  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/16/2018 10:19 am : link
In comment 13791827 twostepgiants said:
Quote:


Are we sure that McAdoo was Mara’s hire?


People started saying that just to be able to vent their frustration at the team. Nobody actually has any information there.
RE: Saban  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 10:20 am : link
Coaching college players desiring to "play on Sunday" is different from coaching pros.

But my bigger concern would be loyalty - he's a god in Alabama, what's to say he won't walk away like he did in Miami.

Bellichek was never coming here, never
bc4life  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 10:23 am : link
Inspiring would be the reaction, "YES! We just hired (blank)!!!!"

Most fans are like, "OK, he's good. We could have done worse."

Again, this may be the best moving forward, but let's not kid ourselves. I wrote what I did above before I read Paul Schwartz's column this morning. This is what he said:

Quote:
Q: Is this a good choice for the Giants?

A: It is a safe choice, a solid choice, perhaps not the most inspiring choice, but it is hard to say it is the wrong choice. Picking a coach on the offensive side of the ball is smart, as now there will not be a go-between when it comes to the head coach dealing with the quarterback. There are no red flags with Shurmur, no worry about his compatibility with the Giants’ structure. Is he a renowned motivator when addressing the whole room? That is supposedly not his forte, but we shall see.

A Spagnuolo return? What Pat Shurmur means for Giants - ( New Window )
Thanks Eric...  
Chris684 : 1/16/2018 10:27 am : link
Not exactly what I want to read regarding command of the room.

Also, doesnt fit the mold of the CEO type Gettleman says he was looking for.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 10:27 am : link
In recent years on BBI, I've found that at times it is not worthy to question things because of the blowback.

For example, last August, I started questioning Brandon Marshall's play as we were getting no reports out of camp about him making any plays. I was basically told to pipe down.

When we hired McAdoo, I was hopeful but had concerns. I largely kept those quiet.

Moving forward - again, with the understanding that the Giants no longer get the benefit of the doubt in my mind - I intend to question things more.

If this considered being "too negative", so be it.
Eric  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 10:27 am : link
One of the quotes that stuck in mind re: the search was something to the effect that "his presentation wowed them". He has a clear plan and vision and apparently they think he can pull it off.

I'm less concerned with how he handles high maintenance guys - I'm more concerned with his pick of coordinators and what his take on the O-Line is.
I like  
DG : 1/16/2018 10:28 am : link
the choice. That said, I think Wilks' upside is higher than any other candidate. We'll see in 5 years. I really like Wilks.
Eric  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 10:29 am : link
It's your site - screw blowback
New way of looking at it  
Breeze_94 : 1/16/2018 10:31 am : link
McDaniels was McAdoo level bad in Denver and is a huge douceh. Patricia looks like a garden gnome.
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 10:32 am : link
In comment 13791857 bc4life said:
Quote:
One of the quotes that stuck in mind re: the search was something to the effect that "his presentation wowed them". He has a clear plan and vision and apparently they think he can pull it off.

I'm less concerned with how he handles high maintenance guys - I'm more concerned with his pick of coordinators and what his take on the O-Line is.


Yeah, I mentioned above that both Shurmur and Patricia wowed them. (supposedly)
Re: motivators  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 10:35 am : link
What is a motivator - guy who gives a fiery speech? Sometimes, sometimes it's done with a whisper, a look, aloofness, example.

That may be overrated. Certainly there are moments in time, events, when you need that - personally I think a lot has to do with getting the right players - isn't that what BB or even Parcells does? "His guys"

Schwartz - m-eh, okay but certainly no burning bush.

I've got no clue if this guy is the right pick, but obviously we all hope for the best.

Next big questions - what does he think of Webb, or the draft QBs. WTF is wrong with the O-Line and how to fix it - along those lines - who will his coordinators be?


I think it will be way more interesting if he doesn't take Spags.
Its very common, even when replacing a manager in a business,  
PatersonPlank : 1/16/2018 10:38 am : link
to go the safe route after getting rid of a flaming situation and employee. The last thing anyone wants is a redo of the last year of the The Mac.
RE: Eric  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/16/2018 10:39 am : link
In comment 13791857 bc4life said:
Quote:


I'm less concerned with how he handles high maintenance guys - I'm more concerned with his pick of coordinators and what his take on the O-Line is.


ITA as it pertains to Odell Beckham in particular. I think 99% of the stuff with Odell is overblown horsecrap anyway. If Odell blows off practice or isn't giving his all on the field... call me then. The guys doing that horseshit are the people a coach really has to worry about.

I also agree that the future coaching staff is a major early barometer for Shurmur. I like Spags A LOT, but I think this team needs new voices/eyes and the defensive room in particular needs an experienced "heavy hand". In addition, there's NO WAY POSSIBLE that Tom Quinn can still have a job here.
picking a HC  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 10:40 am : link
IMO, unless you have a crystal ball - ain't nothing safe, some are just safer
RE: Yup  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 1/16/2018 10:42 am : link
In comment 13791560 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
but let's not sugarcoat this either. Shurmur was the "safe" pick for coach just like Gettleman was the "safe" pick for GM. "Safe" is OK, but will it lead to excellence? Only time well tell.

The other issue with Shurmur is he is pretty milktoast.


What the hell is milktoast?
RE: bc4life  
giants#1 : 1/16/2018 10:43 am : link
In comment 13791843 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Inspiring would be the reaction, "YES! We just hired (blank)!!!!"

Most fans are like, "OK, he's good. We could have done worse."

Again, this may be the best moving forward, but let's not kid ourselves. I wrote what I did above before I read Paul Schwartz's column this morning. This is what he said:



Quote:


Q: Is this a good choice for the Giants?

A: It is a safe choice, a solid choice, perhaps not the most inspiring choice, but it is hard to say it is the wrong choice. Picking a coach on the offensive side of the ball is smart, as now there will not be a go-between when it comes to the head coach dealing with the quarterback. There are no red flags with Shurmur, no worry about his compatibility with the Giants’ structure. Is he a renowned motivator when addressing the whole room? That is supposedly not his forte, but we shall see.

A Spagnuolo return? What Pat Shurmur means for Giants - ( New Window )


If Shurmur was 10 years (a la McDaniels), or even 5 years, younger would the choice be viewed as more "inspired"? Both have had success as OCs and flopped as HCs (spectacularly in JMs case).

Fans, rightly or wrongly, view PS as a "retread' with all its negative connotations because he's >50, whereas JM is a rising star.

I wanted a defensive guy (Patricia), but Shurmur is definitely a good choice and has the experience and connections to put together a strong staff. I also love that he's shown an ability to adapt his offensive philosophy to maximize the talent he has. On paper at least, there's no way that Vikings offense should be more productive than this Giants O.
Eric  
RinR : 1/16/2018 10:43 am : link
I don't recall anyone being inspired by Parcells' hire in 1982. And that was a move made from within.

I also think you are putting too much stock in Shurmur's "milktoast" demeanor. Not all successful coaches have been spit-spewing, sideline lunatics like Cowher. I know you know that.
Tom Landry  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 10:45 am : link
come to mind as a quieter, reserved presence on the sidelines - yes/no?
RE: RE: Yup  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/16/2018 10:47 am : link
In comment 13791920 LawrenceTaylor56 said:
Quote:



What the hell is milktoast?


bland or uninteresting.
I get what Eric is saying  
JonC : 1/16/2018 10:48 am : link
I'm not sure that inspiring pick was out there, given BB is locked up and the older retreads had been absent from the league for a decade. Even the hottest assistants didn't inspire a WOW, imv.
RE: I'm not going to lie..  
trueblueinpw : 1/16/2018 10:49 am : link
In comment 13791700 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Being a dick isn't a game-breaker. Not having respect is - you can't lead without respect. Indy probably fits him well so he can outdick Irsay.


For whatever reason, I really like the verb outdick and I suggest we all try to use it in at least three sentences this week.
RE: I get what Eric is saying  
blueblood : 1/16/2018 10:52 am : link
In comment 13791960 JonC said:
Quote:
I'm not sure that inspiring pick was out there, given BB is locked up and the older retreads had been absent from the league for a decade. Even the hottest assistants didn't inspire a WOW, imv.


Wow factor dont win games. Coaching and talent does. I dont care if he is a HOT name or not.
RE: RE: RE: Yup  
BillKo : 1/16/2018 10:52 am : link
In comment 13791958 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13791920 LawrenceTaylor56 said:


Quote:





What the hell is milktoast?



bland or uninteresting.
\

Or, Ben McAdoo.
Top HC Personalities  
giants#1 : 1/16/2018 10:53 am : link
BB, Carroll, Reid, Tomlin are arguably the top HCs in the league and the others coached playoff teams this season:

Milk Toast
BB
Andy Reid
Doug Pederson
Doug Marrone
Mike Mularkey
Sean McDermott?

Enthusiastic
Pete Carroll
Mike Tomlin
Mike Zimmer
Rivera
McVay
Dan Quinn
Sean Payton

Is it really a pre-requisite to have an enthusiastic coach?
LawrenceTaylor56  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 10:56 am : link
mild, boring

You can even read a NJ.com article from an Eagles beat writer saying that was his reputation in Philly. You don't need to take my word (or the beat writer's word) for it... just watch any interview with the guy.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Yup  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/16/2018 10:56 am : link
In comment 13791994 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 13791958 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 13791920 LawrenceTaylor56 said:


Quote:





What the hell is milktoast?



bland or uninteresting.

\

Or, Ben McAdoo.


I wouldn't say he was bland. Towards the end he was a raving lunatic with his cliche usage.
giants#1  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 10:57 am : link
No, but it is an observation and one of the supposed "knocks" on the guy. This isn't just coming from me.
RE: giants#1  
giants#1 : 1/16/2018 10:59 am : link
In comment 13792022 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
No, but it is an observation and one of the supposed "knocks" on the guy. This isn't just coming from me.


Sure, but it's partly a "knock" solely because his predecessor lacked a personality and was a major flop. If McAdoo was the rah-rah type, then fans would be knocking any prospective candidate that wasn't milk toast.
giants#1  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 11:02 am : link
Could be, but I think New Yorkers tend to gravitate towards guys who demonstrate a bit more passion. Again, as you point out, this maybe a non-issue. But we'll have to see how the players respond to his personality.
Schwartz was just on WFAN saying  
Chris684 : 1/16/2018 11:03 am : link
the question with Shurmur remains "if he can remove the laminated diner menu from in front of his face" and lead a team.
and  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 11:03 am : link
when I say New Yorkers, I'm talking about fans, not players. How a coach "sells" with the fans is important.
McAdoo  
AcesUp : 1/16/2018 11:08 am : link
was stubborn, arrogant and condescending. Those personality traits did him in more than his energy.

The Shurmur knock is valid but it isn't necessary to build a winner, there's a long list of boring guys that have had success. There's an aura surrounding Belichick now, but it's not like he was ever the life of the party and going to bowl you over with charisma.

I'd also like to see what kind of staff Shurmur builds here before criticizing this aspect of his hire. He can color in his weaknesses with the right coaches.
RE: Re: motivators  
Section331 : 1/16/2018 11:09 am : link
In comment 13791895 bc4life said:
Quote:
What is a motivator - guy who gives a fiery speech? Sometimes, sometimes it's done with a whisper, a look, aloofness, example.


Agreed, I do think it is overblown a bit. I've seen clips of Belichick in the locker room, he is hardly the rah rah type. You just have to show players who is in charge, and not take any shit. We'll see if Shurmer is that guy.
AcesUp  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 11:09 am : link
Belichick is dreadful with his interviews. If you based a coach on press interactions, you'd think he was one of the worst in the NFL.
RE: and  
giants#1 : 1/16/2018 11:11 am : link
In comment 13792052 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
when I say New Yorkers, I'm talking about fans, not players. How a coach "sells" with the fans is important.


True, but if the players buy-in and the results are good, fans will back the coach no matter how milk toast and dickish they are (BB the ultimate example).

The offensive players in MN certainly seem to love playing for Shurmur.
This is why when fans are holding the pitchforks..  
Sean : 1/16/2018 11:13 am : link
to fire the coach, it is mostly wrong. McAdoo needed to be replaced, but it’s never a given. From 2013, the only hired coach is Andy Reid. Everyone else fired.

There is no perfect candidate.
RE: AcesUp  
AcesUp : 1/16/2018 11:19 am : link
In comment 13792073 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Belichick is dreadful with his interviews. If you based a coach on press interactions, you'd think he was one of the worst in the NFL.


Miserable. I'd be hesitant to hire him as a middle manager at a small company let alone the defacto CEO of a billion dollar entity. You just never know.
RE: RE: We'll probably be taking an enormous risk at #2  
Thegratefulhead : 1/16/2018 11:38 am : link
In comment 13791736 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 13791731 AcesUp said:


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If this truly is a "safe" pick and that's the direction they went, it's a smart play from a risk management perspective. You can't be rolling the dice at every turn, you e gotta make some hedges, round out that portfolio a little bit. That selection will define the franchise more than anything and this coach gives that pick the greatest chance of success.



^^^ THIS ^^^^

This is the best argument for Shurmur.

I've preached for weeks... they got to get the GM, HC, and QB right.
Eh....I think we just have to get the QB pick right. If that happens, the other 2 look good. IMHO it is always about the QB. O'brien was Meh, then Watson blew it up, they all look good. Philly go it right with Wentz, it's all good. Shurmur is interesting because he made Keenum look good, no one else has. I get the feeling Shurmur had the best answer to "What's your plan?" in the interview process. I bet it was detailed and flexible. I would guess he said something like, "Keenum has a noodle arm and we designed and we offense for him on the fly after the injury. I can make Eli work...This is how. You want to go new, we can do that too, this is how. If we draft (insert Josh, Baker, Sam here) we can do this. You get me the OL and DL and I can do the rest.
It's milquetoast, BTW  
Kevin_in_Pgh : 1/16/2018 11:52 am : link
;-)
RE: RE: Eric  
twostepgiants : 1/16/2018 12:28 pm : link
In comment 13791692 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 13791670 UConn4523 said:


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can't you say that about every candidate?



No. For better or worse, "jazzier" candidates would normally include a big name (i.e., at least talk to Saban or some high profile college coach) or an up-and-coming coordinator who has held the position for a number of years and who is credited with the success of that unit.

It may or may not have been smart to talk to Gruden or Cowher, but was it considered? Was Belichick considered? (Those who automatically laugh at the idea forget there was a time when Parcells wanted to come back and the Giants said no - we only learned that years later).



Eric, you seem to be lamenting the Fassel over Bill Parcells hire in 1997

Would Parcells have done any better?

They both coached the same amount of games from that point forward

Fassel was 58-53-1 in his Giants years

He was 2-3 in the playoffs.

Parcells was 63-48-1 with Jets & Dallas

He was 1-3 in playoffs

Fassel had the Trey Junkin botched FG to lise playoff game.
Parcells had Tony Romo botched FG to lose playoff game

Fassel did win an NFC Championship and coach in the Super Bowl
Kind of silly to equate Parcells 1997 with Belichick today  
Greg from LI : 1/16/2018 12:33 pm : link
Parcells was always a nomadic coach. Outside of his ten seasons with the Giants as DC and HC, he never stayed anywhere else for more than four years, and that includes all of his college coaching jobs. For better or worse, he seems like a guy that always wanted new challenges.

Belichick has been with New England for eighteen seasons. He runs the show up there, unless you choose to believe the rumors that Kraft is suddenly butting in, which I don't. He's never shown any inclination to leaving.
RE: RE: I get what Eric is saying  
JonC : 1/16/2018 12:41 pm : link
In comment 13791991 blueblood said:
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In comment 13791960 JonC said:


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I'm not sure that inspiring pick was out there, given BB is locked up and the older retreads had been absent from the league for a decade. Even the hottest assistants didn't inspire a WOW, imv.



Wow factor dont win games. Coaching and talent does. I dont care if he is a HOT name or not.


Suit yourself, me think a different tune would be sung if NYG somehow pried BB loose from NE.
RE: and  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/16/2018 12:46 pm : link
In comment 13792052 Eric from BBI said:
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when I say New Yorkers, I'm talking about fans, not players. How a coach "sells" with the fans is important.


I'd say this is true but only to a point. Everybody was on board with McAdoo until they started losing.

Winning covers up a lot. Belichick doesn't get away with 90% of his public persona without winning.
RE: It's milquetoast, BTW  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/16/2018 1:31 pm : link
In comment 13792222 Kevin_in_Pgh said:
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;-)

twostepgiants  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 1:40 pm : link
If you are asking me if I would have preferred Parcells over Fassel, the answer is yes.
Thegratefulhead  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 1:42 pm : link
We just witnessed six years of having a good quarterback and a poor OL, running game, special teams, and too often, defense.

It's more than the QB.
Eric is right  
GiantTuff1 : 1/16/2018 1:50 pm : link
this place went dead after the Shurmur news broke.

Heading into this process I was hoping for champagne popping pictures of excitement for the new hire thread. That may have been possible maybe for BB, or Patricia could have garnered that. McDaniels to a lesser extent. Nobody else really from the interview crop,and like Eric said they didn't go farther for high profile candidates from what we know, which was disappointing... and of the whole lot, Shurmur was likely the least inspiring from a fan perspective.

Shurmur's probably a guy Mara can enjoy at his backyard BBQ, or someone you'd want as your son's little league coach, but does he have what it takes to do the big job?

This team needs a kick in the pants, some infusion of fire and new concepts, and Shurmur... Meh.

I literally had no reaction to the hire.

Double down on "Meh" from the fanbase if he keeps old coaches (I'm personally not against Spags).

I hope he does well, but this fan base is not going to be overly patient for a coaching hire they aren't excited about... He may be under the crossfire of fans from the get go because of it, and the only people to blame will be Giants management for botching decision after decision the past several years. It's been a cumulative cascade.
RE: Thegratefulhead  
Thegratefulhead : 1/16/2018 2:04 pm : link
In comment 13792582 Eric from BBI said:
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We just witnessed six years of having a good quarterback and a poor OL, running game, special teams, and too often, defense.

It's more than the QB.
Eli is and always has been a dependent QB. If we draft the next (Brady, Rodgers, Brees, P Manning ect) We will be in a VERY Good spot. These QB have all had some poor OLs, lousy running games and injuries but they raise the level of play of those around them. I love Eli, he is the "man" in my book. It isn't ALL about the QB, but in the NFL you have one or you don't. I think Shurmur is the right guy to pick and develop that guy. Shurmur has made a few (just a guy) look good. All that said I was excited about Wilks because of his fire and ability to relate. I think Wilks could have said things to OBJ that Shurmur cannot. Still, Wilks would have have made first time HC mistakes that Shurmur likely will not make....Get off the ledge man, it is going to be good. I hope :)
Thegratefulhead  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 3:14 pm : link
I hear ya, but we'll agree to disagree. I think you got to get the GM and HC right, in addition to the QB.
RE: AcesUp  
BillKo : 1/16/2018 3:37 pm : link
In comment 13792073 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Belichick is dreadful with his interviews. If you based a coach on press interactions, you'd think he was one of the worst in the NFL.


But how long has he done that? Earlier in his career....was he more loquacious with the press?

I tend to think as he became more and more successful, and kept hearing stupid questions from certain press people, he just started shutting it down, meaning I don't really have time for this crap!

He's actually quite interesting in sit down interviews.
how do people on this board know that Shurmer has the job  
Jersey55 : 1/16/2018 5:02 pm : link
especially since he is still committed to his team in the playoffs, have the Giants been tampering against the league rules...
RE: And outside of someone like Tom Coughlin  
81_Great_Dane : 1/16/2018 5:09 pm : link
In comment 13791796 Jim in Forest Hills said:
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didn't we just get the best guy out there?


I am not crazy about the whole idea of "the best guy out there."

Guys are good at different things, and are good in different situations. The Giants are a different situation than the Lions, Cards or Titans.

The Giants like stability, so first they need a guy who can restore order and right the ship. They also need a guy who can manage the QB transition, help nurture their next QB whether that's Webb or someone else, and someone who can grow with the team. Shurmur fits at least some of that profile.

RE: twostepgiants  
twostepgiants : 1/16/2018 6:13 pm : link
In comment 13792575 Eric from BBI said:
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If you are asking me if I would have preferred Parcells over Fassel, the answer is yes.


Eric, I understand. Everyone would. Its Parcells. he’s better than Fassel. But a lot of that was based on the past.

But judging by the results, they basically did the same exact thing over ensuing 7 years that they coached. Maybe even a slight edge to Fassel. He won an NFC Title.

Im not so sure that Parcells could have done much better than Jim Fassel did during those 7 years. Would Parcells have delivered a title in those 7 years with the same players? Im not sure any coach could have won with what Fassel had at QB. Brown, Graham, Kanell and Collins. Maybe they could have been more consistent. But would they actually have delivered a Super Bowl title?

I love Parcells. Im not knocking him.

My point is - even a big name like Saban or Cowher or Gruden or even Belichick may not be the right move. The right move meaning the best available candidate at he time that can get the team to achieve as high as they can with the talent given.

I agree with you The Giants are in terrible shape. Worse than people realize. They need to be stripped down. The culture has been destroyed. The team identity of football has been lost. A QB needs to be found.

First and foremost, the ship needs to be righted. Super Bowls are a long way off. If Shurmur can right the ship, he’s the right hire. Even if we have to fire him in 4-5 seasons for not winning a championship.

Rebuild this team, establish an identity, restore the culture. Get a QB. That’s the job Shurmur needs to accomplish right now. Championships will come after that happens- by him or the next guy.
RE: how do people on this board know that Shurmer has the job  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/16/2018 6:14 pm : link
In comment 13793107 Jersey55 said:
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especially since he is still committed to his team in the playoffs, have the Giants been tampering against the league rules...


The Cardinals reopening their interviews and interviewing Munchak should probably clue you in that Arizona knows something about the Shurmer hire -- since the two teams that wanted Shurer were Arizona and NY
RE: RE: AcesUp  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/16/2018 11:26 pm : link
In comment 13792885 BillKo said:
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In comment 13792073 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Belichick is dreadful with his interviews. If you based a coach on press interactions, you'd think he was one of the worst in the NFL.



But how long has he done that? Earlier in his career....was he more loquacious with the press?

I tend to think as he became more and more successful, and kept hearing stupid questions from certain press people, he just started shutting it down, meaning I don't really have time for this crap!

He's actually quite interesting in sit down interviews.


He was never personable at any point in interacting with the press or on camera. It's not a new thing. I too have seen it written and said that he's got quite a personality away from cameras, but his personality was the same in Cleveland if you believe the stories, part of why George Young wanted nothing to do with Belichick taking the HC job after Parcells.
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