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Million $ Question: Do the Giants tweak things or rebuild?

Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 10:39 am
We should start finding out as we move closer to March, but any guesses about Gettleman's approach to this roster?

To me, a complete blow up would be Gettleman looking at a guy like Janoris Jenkins and saying, "He's not going to be part of the culture I am trying to create."

Because of the dramatic salary cap implications, most assume JPP and Vernon are staying. But does he bite the bullet to clear the decks? (To me, JPP is approaching that coach killer status).

And the biggie... does he rip the bandaid off and part ways with Eli now?

Or does he look at this roster and decide he can work with this?
I think it will be a little of both.  
Section331 : 1/16/2018 10:42 am : link
Eli stays, bring in some vets to fortify the roster, but use the draft to get younger and faster. We're paying a number of vets a lot of money, I don't see how they can go total rebuild right now.
I personally don't think they blow it up.  
PatersonPlank : 1/16/2018 10:43 am : link
My impression is that everyone thinks things need to be tweaked, and a new culture put in. To me this was shown in the different ways they handled Hart (let him go) and Flowers (just sat him). Flowers obviously has more upside than Hart.

I also think they roll with Eli for another 1-2 years, and build around him by improving the OL and RB situations. I think this was a major reason that Shurmur was the guy and not a DC.

The wildcard is Webb. If they think he has the goods then that #1 pick can be used on a OL player or RB.
Gettleman himself said  
robbieballs2003 : 1/16/2018 10:45 am : link
that if he told Mara he would need X amount of years to turn this around that he probably wouldn't get the job. Call it what you want but I would imagine that both Gettleman and Shurmur are not thinking about rebuilding at the expense of losing next year or the year after. They will do what they think will have them succeeding at a championship level soon than most would think. That doesn't mean he will not cut some high priced players. Gettleman's first goal is to reestablish a winning culture.
I think overall, he's going to tweak the roster.  
Brown Recluse : 1/16/2018 10:46 am : link
The only units being rebuilt will probably be the offensive line and the linebacking corps since so many of them are free agents.

In 2016 Janoris Jenkins had one of the best seasons I've ever seen from a cornerback on this team. No way does he get shipped off. His performance that year was every bit as impactful as Damon Harrisons.

I don't see Eli going anywhere either. If they rebuild the offensive line and linebackers, and get another WR and RB - they can be a competitive team and start funneling in young talent through the draft.


Eric  
ZogZerg : 1/16/2018 10:47 am : link
You just indicated we went "Safe" with picking the coach - do you really see the Giants brass "blowing up" the roster? Not a chance. I'm sure they'll make some moves and dump some names, but not a full rebuild.
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 10:48 am : link
In comment 13791954 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
You just indicated we went "Safe" with picking the coach - do you really see the Giants brass "blowing up" the roster? Not a chance. I'm sure they'll make some moves and dump some names, but not a full rebuild.


One could argue that the reason Shurmur was selected was to develop the #2 pick. Does Eli really want to be hear as a placeholder for one year?
I don't think this roster is as bad as the record says it is  
jv : 1/16/2018 10:49 am : link
I think you cut out the guys you think are cancer and fortify the positions that were obvious weakness. (OL being the most glaring)

The NFL is so mediocre now that it's not out of the realm for us to be a playoff team next year.
RE: I think overall, he's going to tweak the roster.  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 10:49 am : link
In comment 13791946 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
The only units being rebuilt will probably be the offensive line and the linebacking corps since so many of them are free agents.

In 2016 Janoris Jenkins had one of the best seasons I've ever seen from a cornerback on this team. No way does he get shipped off. His performance that year was every bit as impactful as Damon Harrisons.

I don't see Eli going anywhere either. If they rebuild the offensive line and linebackers, and get another WR and RB - they can be a competitive team and start funneling in young talent through the draft.



Gettleman did some unpopular things in Carolina and let their top-notch CB go too.
the key  
giantfan2000 : 1/16/2018 10:50 am : link
if we draft QB 1st round then we are going to rebuild mode
and things will get blown up

if Eli is going to be our QB then we are going to make another run with this core team..

A year ago we had 6 pro bowlers on this team - they are all still here ..
there is a case to be made we are OL and LB upgrade away from playoff team ..
Section331 hit it right on the head  
Eli2020 : 1/16/2018 10:52 am : link
If they rebuild now, they'll just be digging a deeper hole for when they want to re-emerge 3 years from now. It's just not fiscally responsible with all the dead money from releasing these guys.

We keep forgetting, this team's talent is boarder-line playoff worthy. If there wasn't such a depletion of talent on the OL, they would have easily been over .500 before all the injuries hit. Add in we will actually have a competent offensive game plan (including a better playbook), this team can easily get back into the wildcard spot and make a run.

Best thing to do is find your future QB, develop the young guns while reloading in the draft and make smart decisions (e.g. Don't resign JPP 2 years from now)
I heard some reporter state  
David B. : 1/16/2018 10:53 am : link
--I can't remember who, but it might have been Kim Jones -- that (and I'm paraphrasing)

The Giants are looking at last year as an aberration (due to the injuries and coaching issues), and that they don't expect to be drafting this high again for the foreseeable future.

The comment was made in the context of draft talk, and the possibility of being able to draft a top QB at #2 overall.

But IF you believe that that's the mentality in the building, THE GIANTS, seem to be thinking of RE-LOAD, rather than Rebuild. They don't think they're as far away as a 3-13 team typically is.

Gettleman also pointed out that there are a lot of young talented players on the team. More than you typically see on a 3-13 team.

Who knows?

IMO, if they can fix the OL, and install a new, more effective offense, and have some better luck with injuries, they could be competitive again rather quickly. Much of that will depend on how fast they can fix the OL.

And (IMO) yes, they should still draft a QB at #2.
Eric  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 10:53 am : link
depends I am not sure Jenkins is a real problem child or just someone who will do some stupid shit from time to time. Odell - does silly shit but like DG says gotta be patient with talent. He's gonna be the straw the stirs the drink on offense. Apple - think it's fixable. Hopefully talking to Meyer will help. If not, he'll be traded before season starts, if not sooner.

Biggest question for me - how quickly can he fix the O-Line. If he moves present pieces around with 1 or 2 additions or does he think most of the pieces he has are broken.
What I don't get is...  
Blue Angel : 1/16/2018 10:54 am : link
Recently we have been seeing more and more rookie QBs starting from game one, i.e., Carson Weitz, Jared Goff, the rookie from Cleveland and so on....If you think Webb is the real thing have him to be your starter, he has been under Eli for a whole full year, don't you think that's enough time and get rid of Eli by trade, cutting him or tell him to take a significant pay cut and battle with Webb for the starting QB position or we will have to cut you.
No  
PaulN : 1/16/2018 10:55 am : link
They are not blowing it up. It is being proved today in many sports that you can rebuild on the fly, it may still take a few years, but you can stay more competitive that way and still do the job.

I think they look for a future QB if they believe there is a player or two to be found in this draft. They will keep Eli if they think the new guy needs time, if they think he needs to play they will trade Eli if they can. If there is no QB of the future they like then why not keep Eli, he still has some game left if you can build an offensive line around him and get a strong running game going. If he has that, he can still win, which is why I hate Reese, he never got that simple point.
IMO, Keeping Eli is a no-brainer  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 10:55 am : link
My God, look at the success Shurmur has had with Keenam. Gotta look to the future though - if Webb ain't the guy, grab Rosen or whoever. Cannot think of a better mentor to a young QB
I think it all needs to be taken on  
bigbluehoya : 1/16/2018 10:55 am : link
A player-by-player basis, but overall I say embrace a pretty deep rebuild.

Jenkins is a player that I’d keep. I think he’s that good when locked in, and I have a hard time pinning too much of Cirque du 2017 on him. I won’t excuse his actions, but I don’t recall anything of him being a distraction other than the bye week travel incident (correct me if I’m wrong). I give him a clean slate one time with new regime.

I’d move on from JPP, eat the negative savings for 2018 and have him not touching the cap for ‘19 and onwards.

Suppose I give Vernon one more year to produce, though not a hill I’d die on.

Oddly enough, I don’t have a strong opinion about Eli. I can see the merits to moving on as well as keeping him. Realistically, I think the decision was already made to keep him, and I personally believe that decision was already communicated to coaching candidates in the process. Possibly GM candidates as well.

The team is a year removed from an 11 and 5 season  
Dinger : 1/16/2018 10:57 am : link
I think you have to retool and adjust the gameplan. Root out some of the bad apples(or Jenkins' or DRC's or Harts') and add some offensive linemen. I truly believe they can make a run with the right coach gameplan, two (three would be better) new OL and they need a serious pass rusher. The glaring issue during the 2016 season was the OL BUT the thing they could cover up was the lack of pass rush in the loss to the Packers. I think they can grab a QB in the first round, IF they really like one, or go DE or OL (especially if hey can trade down). in 2018, you will have a bunch of injured players back, hopefully a coach with a better game plan and a more disciplined team. If you go for a complete gut job, you still have a lot of work and unknowns. You know what you have now and you ca definitely build on some of it.....
Mixture.  
AcidTest : 1/16/2018 10:57 am : link
Harris, Marshall, and maybe DRC and Jerry, will be cut. I also don't think we'll resign Pugh, and probably not Richburg either.

I don't see Eli being cut. The cap hit is too much. Same for OV and JPP. DG also already said he thinks what he saw from Eli against Philadelphia shows that he can still play. This time next year is when the Giants will probably consider a massive veteran purge. Eli, OV, and JPP could be gone then.
Well we're already off  
Powerclean765 : 1/16/2018 10:57 am : link
to an odd start.

Gettleman is old school Giants. Power football. Big, nasty MF'ers up front.

And Shurmur is WCO. Zone blocking. Do-it-all RBs.

There is a certain type of personnel required for each system. Hope they're on the same page but I'm already skeptical and it looks like AGAIN there is no vision/same page from ownership/GM/Head Coach. That's been a problem.
RE: the key  
Milton : 1/16/2018 10:58 am : link
In comment 13791982 giantfan2000 said:
Quote:
if we draft QB 1st round then we are going to rebuild mode and things will get blown up.
As I've been saying all along, drafting a QB #2 overall does not prevent the Giants from going for it all with Eli at the helm. Some smart moves in free agency and better health and this team could be competing for a Super Bowl next year. And if Eli and the offense have a good year, let him play out his contract. Rosen can wait until he's 23 before taking over the reins. It'll be like going from Favre to Rodgers or from Brees to Rivers.
RE: What I don't get is...  
B in ALB : 1/16/2018 10:59 am : link
In comment 13792004 Blue Angel said:
Quote:
Recently we have been seeing more and more rookie QBs starting from game one, i.e., Carson Weitz, Jared Goff, the rookie from Cleveland and so on....If you think Webb is the real thing have him to be your starter, he has been under Eli for a whole full year, don't you think that's enough time and get rid of Eli by trade, cutting him or tell him to take a significant pay cut and battle with Webb for the starting QB position or we will have to cut you.


We're not seeing this at all. And Goff sat a year before he played. Please get your facts straight before posting.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 11:00 am : link
Is any of our starting offensive linemen in 2018 on the roster now?

Same question at linebacker?
if rosen is the pick...  
mphbullet36 : 1/16/2018 11:01 am : link
he shouldn't be playing behind anyone...he knows how to make reads and can make all the throws he's NFL ready.

If Darnold or Allen are the picks I could obvoiusly see Eli being the place holder for another year.

But if we pick Rosen we should really move on from Eli...
Dinger  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 11:01 am : link
I'm playing devil's advocate, but isn't the 11-5 season the outlier at this point?
Eric  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 11:01 am : link
I'd say yes. Wheeler, Jones, Fluker.
RE: ...  
blueblood : 1/16/2018 11:02 am : link
In comment 13792031 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Is any of our starting offensive linemen in 2018 on the roster now?

Same question at linebacker?


OL yes..

LB.. probably not
Didn't MIN rebuild their ENTIRE OL this year?  
BigBlue4You09 : 1/16/2018 11:03 am : link
I'm sure he had a huge say in that
Kevin Abrams  
giants#1 : 1/16/2018 11:04 am : link
The dead money would be substantial, but Abrams structured all the big deals (Jenkins/Snacks/Vernon) such that the team would actually see cap savings if any of those players are cut this year.
Both  
Biteymax22 : 1/16/2018 11:04 am : link
I think certain position groups need to be blown up and rebuilt but not the entire roster.

If you told me we had 5 different O-Lineman next year I would be for it.

If Shurmur/Gettleman get rid of the personalities in the secondary and replace them with team guys it would make sense.

We also need (and contract status may force us anyway) at least 2 new linebackers.

The rest of the roster can be tweaked. 1 more pass rusher would make a difference, as would 1 more big bodied receiver.
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 11:05 am : link
In comment 13792039 bc4life said:
Quote:
I'd say yes. Wheeler, Jones, Fluker.


Jones doesn't fit Gettleman's prototype, but we'll see. Fluker is a FA.
Regarding lack of value  
idiotsavant : 1/16/2018 11:07 am : link
For money spent on defensive ends last season.

You might be able to get better value out of them by adjusting the D line scheme a bit and adding one more great nose DT.

Allow ends to take more risks.

Faster better lbs or more dime etc.

But either way - you have to give coach some authority and the ability to motivate or scare any doggers. JPP is very frustrating because he still.flashes on random occasion.
and the real million $ question  
giants#1 : 1/16/2018 11:09 am : link
is what do Gettleman/Shurmur think of Webb's long term prospects? If they believe he can be a legit starting QB, then they'll look to tweak/reload rather than rebuild and that #2 can be used to fix the OL and/or running game (trade back to #5/6 could get them enough picks to address OL/RB/LB in the top 75 picks).

If they think Webb's a future backup, you have to draft a QB at #2 and then you're more or less looking at a rebuild and should look to deal Eli and get something in return.
Eric  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 11:09 am : link
wasn't nothing but a wag anyway (wild assed guess)
I am intrigued  
bc4life : 1/16/2018 11:11 am : link
by Jackie Slater's opinion of Wheeler though. Know they are both former Trojans but Slater could have quietly worked with him out without all the praise if he didn't really see it.
Imho  
idiotsavant : 1/16/2018 11:11 am : link
Coach, OC and OL unit coach will have a say in who to keep or bring in on OL.

If you don't want their input, you hire someone who's input you do want.

I think the days of players thinking that they work directly for the GM are gone and over.
RE: Dinger  
Dinger : 1/16/2018 11:15 am : link
In comment 13792037 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I'm playing devil's advocate, but isn't the 11-5 season the outlier at this point?


I guess, but do you think if they invested the kind of money they did in the defense and KEPT coughlin, would they have had the same success in 2016 and then not had the 'coaching' issues they had in 2017? I think perhaps. You have an above average QB a well above average receiving corp, an average running back group and a below average OL. On defense you have an above average interior line and average DE's. Above average CB's(when they want to be) and above average saftey play with below average LB's(I think by design, to my consternation). Now I've excluded ST and I'm not sure what happened to Wing, but Rosas has got to go. So maybe I have rose colored glasses, but I think there is enough talent there for a good coach to add a part or three and make a good run.....
Flowers  
AcidTest : 1/16/2018 11:15 am : link
may be the only starting OL next year who is currently on the roster. If Kennard doesn't return, then I'm not sure any of our current LBs will be starting next year.

Rosen is the only QB who can play next year. Darnold and Allen aren't ready. But Rosen has an injury history and is a pocket passer. That could be problematic behind this OL. The simple truth is that if we don't fix the OL, the QB will take a beating next year, and all our shiny toys won't be able to function.
the cult of eli  
sundayatone : 1/16/2018 11:16 am : link
must end,if not, prepare for more losing.
Agree that the Gettlemen and Shurmer Hires  
clatterbuck : 1/16/2018 11:16 am : link
indicate it's more of a reload/reboot than a wholesale rebuilding. Why would Shurmur even take the job if he's told the team is going blow things up and there's a chance he may get left holding the bag after 2-3 years? Ownership seems to think they aren't that far away from being a good team and it will be up to Gettlemen and Shurmur to make the calls on Jackrabbit, DRC, Apple and others re lockerroom culture issues.
RE: Dinger  
Milton : 1/16/2018 11:17 am : link
In comment 13792037 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I'm playing devil's advocate, but isn't the 11-5 season the outlier at this point?
What makes it an outlier is that over the last four years, the 11-5 season was the only one in which the Giants enjoyed good health. The other three seasons consisted of not just bad health, but historically bad health.
From a distance  
idiotsavant : 1/16/2018 11:18 am : link
It seemed like some of the players and maybe even some of the unit coaches felt that they had a relationship with the team that superceded their accountability to their direct leader on the side.

If true, that could account for all sorts of ills.

So, revamping the process is happening ...for sure. And the schemes obviously...contracts? We shall see.
You only need to look as far as Mara quote (12/29/17)  
STLGiant : 1/16/2018 11:19 am : link
"I expect us to be a good team in 2018. You go from last to first or first to last, teams do that every year. And we do have some talent on this roster. We obviously have a lot of holes to fill as well, but I don't see any reason why we can't have a successful team next year."

I just cannot see a QB being selected with the overall #2 pick. Strategic thinking in the NFL illustrates that Webb carries the clipboard for 2 years and then gets his shot of taking the reigns. Conventional thinking would be to start a QB immediately or very shortly into his first season. QB hell can result if the pick is wasted on a QB who cannot perform immediately (see the David Carr fiasco in Houston)--or even worse, your rookie makes a serious run for your team, then goes down to injury just before the playoffs (2018 Eagles).

If Mara "truly" feels we are close, I think they go with selecting Saquon Barkley, continue to rebuild the OL with FAs and Draft picks and try to make a run over the next two years and then worry about drafting a QB (if even needed based on Shurmer working with Webb) after a few years.

While other RBs can indeed be selected in later rounds as others have noted on BBI), only Barkley has ALL the tools to start immediately in the NFL and be an impact player (he runs, blocks, and catches) and has done so with a mediocre OL. Chubb and other RBs just don't have that kind of resume or do so behind a strong OL. Barkley reminds me of the starting RBs in Pittsburgh and Dallas...NYG's Tiki Barber (minus the 'tude)
The biggest issue is going to pay or not to pay Beckham  
Go Terps : 1/16/2018 11:24 am : link
Is it a good idea to pay a WR what figures to be $18M-$20M a year for 4 or 5 years?

This isn't proof of anything, but the highest cap number of any WR still alive in these playoffs is Brandin Cooks at $8.459M. He is in the last year of his rookie deal. Does anyone think the Patriots will give him a big contract? Me neither.
Shurmur  
Phil in LA : 1/16/2018 11:24 am : link
runs a power-spread, not the classic WCO.
Power Spread - ( New Window )
STL  
idiotsavant : 1/16/2018 11:25 am : link
So, is what your saying:

'QB hell is not just not having one...its paying top $$ for one who doesn't perform'

That makes sense to me.
And IMO Retaining Eli Another Year  
clatterbuck : 1/16/2018 11:28 am : link
while drafting his eventual replacement is not incompatible.
Milton  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/16/2018 11:29 am : link
You sound like Jerry Reese now.
I think  
Les in TO : 1/16/2018 11:29 am : link
it will be somewhere between a tweak or a rebuild - maybe a significant reno.

I think he will draft a QB at #2 who will sit behind Eli for at least a year, rebuild the offensive line, and will not overpay to keep our free agents. He will also bring in some external free agents to address some positional talent deficits.

I don't think he's going to start cutting players under contract like Jenkins JPP or Vernon where there would be a big cap hit.

He has already stated that Apple gets a clean slate with him, so if someone that messed up gets another chance, then I think Flowers and Jenkins are safe.
I think it is a complete rebuild.  
DonQuixote : 1/16/2018 11:29 am : link
We are going to draft a QB at #2, Eli only keeps his job if he is willing to take the mentor role, which he said he does not want.

Our OL has few few decent players that are not FAs.

I see a Gettleman move in cutting JPP, might not happen, but the DL needs to be revised in some way.

I think the ONE area that may not be rebuilt is the secondary. I could see Gettleman keeping Jenkins, Apple and DRC.

I'm tired of hearing health as an excuse  
Go Terps : 1/16/2018 11:30 am : link
If health is such a determining factor in wins and losses, then we should be changing how we construct the roster and employ it on the field.
RE: The biggest issue is going to pay or not to pay Beckham  
giants#1 : 1/16/2018 11:33 am : link
In comment 13792124 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Is it a good idea to pay a WR what figures to be $18M-$20M a year for 4 or 5 years?

This isn't proof of anything, but the highest cap number of any WR still alive in these playoffs is Brandin Cooks at $8.459M. He is in the last year of his rookie deal. Does anyone think the Patriots will give him a big contract? Me neither.


1. Fortuitous timing seeing as the NFL highest paid WR was just eliminated last week after posting a 7 rec/132 yds/2 TD performance on a bad calf.

2. Brown/Hopkins just signed big deals for $17M and $16M AAV, respectively so it's more likely they end up with Beckham earning $17-18M than $20M. And that's assuming he is: a) healthy and b) posts a monster year similar to his first 3 seasons.

3. Isn't it your preference to have young QBs on the roster precisely so that you can pay top performers at other premium positions? That's exactly where the Giants will be in the next 1-2 years with Eli's time coming to an end. If you're not going to use that extra cap space on a top 3 player at his position, where are you going to use it?
These Half Measures  
lax counsel : 1/16/2018 11:34 am : link
Are proven not to work in this league and for this team specifically. You could look at it that this team is one year removed from the playoffs or you could choose to look at a larger sample size and say this team has posted a losing record 4 of the last 5 seasons. I think a half measure try to make a run with this team is a recipe for a lot of mediocre football in the coming years.

If in 2004, they had decided to ride it out with Kerry Collins and co do we all have 2005-2012 and two memorable runs? I mean guessing not. The team is at that exact same crossroad now. Team has a high draft pick with at least two viable candidates as franchise qbs, and a high second round pick. My feeling is take the qb and ol with pick 1 and 2 and begin to construct a team that can sustain success.

My biggest fear for this team is that they roll with Eli, endure two mediocre seasons, Webbs isn't the answer, and they are never really in a position to get a franchise qb at the top for a number of years and end up in limbo for a decade plus.
RE: I'm tired of hearing health as an excuse  
giants#1 : 1/16/2018 11:36 am : link
In comment 13792156 Go Terps said:
Quote:
If health is such a determining factor in wins and losses, then we should be changing how we construct the roster and employ it on the field.


I believe it is highly correlated with success.

That said, one thing you always see is guys with semi-major injuries going on IR after their team is losing when they would likely battle through the injury if their team was still competitive. So this could skew the analyses quite a bit as I don't believe they account for this.


(not a knock on the players as this is often in the best interest of both the team and player)
Don’t Think It Will Be G’s Call  
MojoEd : 1/16/2018 11:37 am : link
I think the entire NYG organization and roster need a complete raze and rebuild. I think Gettleman is capable of getting that done, but I don’t think ownership is smart enough to know that is needed. I hope I am wrong, but I am getting the sense that G’s mandate might only be for a patch job. For the first time as a NYG fan, I am pessimistic about the franchise.
my worry is  
UESBLUE : 1/16/2018 11:39 am : link
they try and do both simultaneously bacisally accomplishing neither. Its kinda like trying to build muscle and get ripped at the same time. Prescription for failure on both fronts. Choose your priorities and focus on that one first.
There's too much talent  
ryanmkeane : 1/16/2018 11:41 am : link
on this team for a complete rebuild. New leadership from GM and HC was necessary. I think there's more than enough talent on O and D to bring in some new pieces and blend a new team together that doesn't completely wipe away everything.

As noted, the team as 11-5 in 2016 and had one of the best defenses in the league. We also lost a shitload of games in 2015 in the last few minutes.
Injuries  
idiotsavant : 1/16/2018 11:43 am : link
Result from a poorly considered team and crap line play.

Imagine this team in 2017 with all healthy wrs, but without EE and Apple and yet -with- two great linemen, and also with a rational O scheme...and with running.

10-6?
Rebuild  
AcesUp : 1/16/2018 11:45 am : link
It's kind of a broad term but I think the front office should be looking at this as a transition year with personnel decisions building towards the 2019 season. The cupboard isn't bare, there are pieces. I see about 6-7 pro bowl calibers and 2-3 all pros but we are severely lacking in dependable role players and glue guys. We're looking at completely baren units at OL and LB, potentially one at CB depending on how they address DRC and Apple. Other obvious holes as well.

That Mara quote above scares me a little because I think it's a little deluded. There's more evidence to suggest that 2015 was just as much an outlier as last season was, the market just corrected on our 6-7 win team. We can tweak things and probably get ourselves knocked out of the wild card round next year, but we're not close enough to contend immediately. There's too much rot that needs to be addressed to fast track this, enough to demand that our resources be focused internally before looking for quick fixes outside.
at 3-13  
Ron Johnson : 1/16/2018 11:45 am : link
the Giants took the 1 seed in the nfc to the wire twice. in the nfl you almost never more than good health and a little luck away from making the playoffs.
I think it is rebuild  
SomeFan : 1/16/2018 11:46 am : link
with a QB drafted at 2 but rebuilding can happen in one year these days.
The  
AcidTest : 1/16/2018 11:48 am : link
offense was completely moribund, and that put way too much pressure on the defense. And that was because of the OL. I understand drafting a QB at #2 if the Giants aren't sold on Webb and love one of Rosen, Darnold, or Allen, but it won't make any difference if we don't fix the OL. Doing that and getting some coverage LBs who can play in space are the highest priorities, unless the Giants think one of the QBs is worthy of the #2 pick. Remember we gave up a TD to opposing TEs in a record number of games.
*2016 not 2015  
AcesUp : 1/16/2018 11:52 am : link
New Year is screwing me up.
Regarding QB at 2..  
idiotsavant : 1/16/2018 11:52 am : link
We are hearing lots of definitive statements from fans here about this one or that one. I have not looked at players at all this year and feel you need various and professional sets of eyes on that spot at QB in particular

So it makes the mocking highly variable.

Never take the received wisdom especially not now.

Maybe its a definitional issue....  
Reb8thVA : 1/16/2018 11:52 am : link
but I don't think what they need to do is to "blow it all up" or what some may say "selling the future for Eli." I think what they need to do they will have to do for whoever is QB or if they want to take the next step forward.

1.) Fix the OL. This is the number one no fail mission. You need an OL that can open up the running game and protect the QB. Succeed in this and everything will fall in place. It doesn't matter if your QB is Eli, Webb, Darnold, Rosen or whoever.

2.) Find your bell cow RB. Even though many teams are moving towards RB by committee, you still need that featured back. Gallman is an important piece going forward but he ain't the guy. RB should be a top priority in FA or the draft.

3.) Improve the Pass Rush- The current crop ain't getting it done. We need the third pass rushing threat like when we had Strahan, Tuck, and Osi. Whether it is a Chris Canty type DT or another DE, We have to get to the QB. Bradley Chubb anyone.

4.) Linebackers- What can you say that hasn't been said before? We need speed and we need coverage skills

Abrams always finds a way with the cap  
uncledave : 1/16/2018 11:53 am : link
I think we retain more than people here think, especially on defense but I could see Pugh and Richburg going. I'd say we would get the same/slightly better production out of FAs like Russell Bodine and Austin Pazstor for a lesser price tag anyway (both are still young). I also really like the Damien Mama signing and think he will be in the fold and I think we resign Fluker.

I think DG kind of turns his attention at this point to the draft, once they figure out coordinators and figure out a gameplan for the season. In the meantime, they need to be prepping for the Senior Bowl, All-Star game, Combine, Pro days... we're at that point.

There is no way we ditch Eli and I doubt we take a QB it just doesn't make sense. Eli has never missed a start and we have Webb, you can get a kid like Benkurt in the 4-6rds this year, just not worth it in my opinion but if they did I vote Josh Allen.
RE: I think it will be a little of both.  
old man : 1/16/2018 11:56 am : link
In comment 13791919 Section331 said:
Quote:
Eli stays, bring in some vets to fortify the roster, but use the draft to get younger and faster. We're paying a number of vets a lot of money, I don't see how they can go total rebuild right now.

+1.
Ive said they have to 1) decide the kind of team they want; 2) find a GM to build that; 3) hire a coach that can coach that;4) get coordinators and position coaches that can best make that happen.
They seem to have done 1) and have a GM that at least understands 1) and seems to know how to do that.
From ownership's POV  
Jerry K : 1/16/2018 12:03 pm : link
They blew it up by firing the coach and GM. I think it's too difficult to find good players to replace the OL while also replacing high-priced low-perfermors such as JPP, or high-priced temperamental players like Jenkins, along with the relative deadwood such as Brandon Marshall and most of the LBs.

So, in terms of personnel, I don't think it will be blown up but I do expect quite a few changes and, hopefully, some surprises.
I think there are going to be some painful moves  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/16/2018 12:21 pm : link
and some tweaking - but you have a lot of clues to follow here

1) Gettleman says you do not give up on talent -- therefore:
- Flowers has a chance to stay - but he may be moved (tweak)
- Apple has already been told he has a clean slate (no change there)
- RBs in contract can compete -
- Pugh and Richburg he will evaluate -- but likely gone as their value is likely not in sync with the money they will command -- painful moves but could be addition by subtraction
- Jerry will compete but is probably expendable
- Snacks and Tomlinson aren't going anywhere
- Engram and Ellison aren't going anywhere
- Beckham and Shep aren't going anywhere - Gettleman is not getting rid of Beckham - he's going to get his contract -- see John Mara
- Jackrabbit gets a year to see if he fits the new regime
- LBs Goodson isn't going anywhere yet - will he rehire Kennard?
2) Gettleman has historically gotten rid of aging vets -- so here are your ?marks --

DRC - either takes a cut or is gone imo
JPP - too painful to cut in 2018
OV - also too painful to cut in 2018
Eli - not going to be cut in 2018 -- that idea even in modified form cost the last GM and HC their jobs
Harris -- likely gone
Marshall -- he's a ?

The rest of roster and FAs -- I doubt a lot of the FAs are coming back -- that includes Hertz, Berhe, -- maybe Kennard, Cockrell are possibilities to sign

Looking at the above issues and the large number of FAs Gettleman has plenty of opportunities to make his stamp on the team by:
- signing a slew of shrewd depth players
-- adding a couple of beefy mollyhogs
-- adding a couple of his kind of LBs
-- adding a couple of unheralded CBs
-- adding/subtracting an aging vet WR fill in if he decides Marshall has to go - or if Shurmur decides a bunch of the WR fill-ins really have to go -- and a lot of them will/have to

there you have it -- some tweaks -- some areas of possible pain -- and get to work on FA before the draft

Gettleman has his work cut out for him and it really should be a mixed bag -- but there is a core of talent that will definitely remain and which a winning team can be built from in 2018

I would say gidiefor has spoken -- but that sends all the third party police into a frenzy




oh hire a bell cow RB  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/16/2018 12:23 pm : link
...pleeze
RE: ...  
paesan98 : 1/16/2018 12:26 pm : link
In comment 13792031 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Is any of our starting offensive linemen in 2018 on the roster now?

Same question at linebacker?


I think Flowers will start, but maybe not at LT. A guard spot or RT may be more likely. We could see all new starting LBs, but I think that may be stretching it a bit too far. We may have to have one of our current LBs start next year, but couldn't say who it would be. Maybe Goodson, if he is healthy and they don't bring in a high quality replacement.
RE: I think there are going to be some painful moves  
Rong5611 : 1/16/2018 12:33 pm : link
Well said. What positions would you focus on in the draft. Assuming we take a QB at #2...

OL, DL?


In comment 13792311 gidiefor said:
Quote:
and some tweaking - but you have a lot of clues to follow here

1) Gettleman says you do not give up on talent -- therefore:
- Flowers has a chance to stay - but he may be moved (tweak)
- Apple has already been told he has a clean slate (no change there)
- RBs in contract can compete -
- Pugh and Richburg he will evaluate -- but likely gone as their value is likely not in sync with the money they will command -- painful moves but could be addition by subtraction
- Jerry will compete but is probably expendable
- Snacks and Tomlinson aren't going anywhere
- Engram and Ellison aren't going anywhere
- Beckham and Shep aren't going anywhere - Gettleman is not getting rid of Beckham - he's going to get his contract -- see John Mara
- Jackrabbit gets a year to see if he fits the new regime
- LBs Goodson isn't going anywhere yet - will he rehire Kennard?
2) Gettleman has historically gotten rid of aging vets -- so here are your ?marks --

DRC - either takes a cut or is gone imo
JPP - too painful to cut in 2018
OV - also too painful to cut in 2018
Eli - not going to be cut in 2018 -- that idea even in modified form cost the last GM and HC their jobs
Harris -- likely gone
Marshall -- he's a ?

The rest of roster and FAs -- I doubt a lot of the FAs are coming back -- that includes Hertz, Berhe, -- maybe Kennard, Cockrell are possibilities to sign

Looking at the above issues and the large number of FAs Gettleman has plenty of opportunities to make his stamp on the team by:
- signing a slew of shrewd depth players
-- adding a couple of beefy mollyhogs
-- adding a couple of his kind of LBs
-- adding a couple of unheralded CBs
-- adding/subtracting an aging vet WR fill in if he decides Marshall has to go - or if Shurmur decides a bunch of the WR fill-ins really have to go -- and a lot of them will/have to

there you have it -- some tweaks -- some areas of possible pain -- and get to work on FA before the draft

Gettleman has his work cut out for him and it really should be a mixed bag -- but there is a core of talent that will definitely remain and which a winning team can be built from in 2018

I would say gidiefor has spoken -- but that sends all the third party police into a frenzy



RE: I think there are going to be some painful moves  
paesan98 : 1/16/2018 12:34 pm : link
In comment 13792311 gidiefor said:
Quote:
and some tweaking - but you have a lot of clues to follow here

1) Gettleman says you do not give up on talent -- therefore:
- Flowers has a chance to stay - but he may be moved (tweak)
- Apple has already been told he has a clean slate (no change there)
- RBs in contract can compete -
- Pugh and Richburg he will evaluate -- but likely gone as their value is likely not in sync with the money they will command -- painful moves but could be addition by subtraction
- Jerry will compete but is probably expendable
- Snacks and Tomlinson aren't going anywhere
- Engram and Ellison aren't going anywhere
- Beckham and Shep aren't going anywhere - Gettleman is not getting rid of Beckham - he's going to get his contract -- see John Mara
- Jackrabbit gets a year to see if he fits the new regime
- LBs Goodson isn't going anywhere yet - will he rehire Kennard?
2) Gettleman has historically gotten rid of aging vets -- so here are your ?marks --

DRC - either takes a cut or is gone imo
JPP - too painful to cut in 2018
OV - also too painful to cut in 2018
Eli - not going to be cut in 2018 -- that idea even in modified form cost the last GM and HC their jobs
Harris -- likely gone
Marshall -- he's a ?

The rest of roster and FAs -- I doubt a lot of the FAs are coming back -- that includes Hertz, Berhe, -- maybe Kennard, Cockrell are possibilities to sign

Looking at the above issues and the large number of FAs Gettleman has plenty of opportunities to make his stamp on the team by:
- signing a slew of shrewd depth players
-- adding a couple of beefy mollyhogs
-- adding a couple of his kind of LBs
-- adding a couple of unheralded CBs
-- adding/subtracting an aging vet WR fill in if he decides Marshall has to go - or if Shurmur decides a bunch of the WR fill-ins really have to go -- and a lot of them will/have to

there you have it -- some tweaks -- some areas of possible pain -- and get to work on FA before the draft

Gettleman has his work cut out for him and it really should be a mixed bag -- but there is a core of talent that will definitely remain and which a winning team can be built from in 2018

I would say gidiefor has spoken -- but that sends all the third party police into a frenzy





Gidie, I agree with everything you say, with perhaps, one minor caveat. Is DRC's contract out of line when you factor in that Apple may not come around, either mentally or with his play on the field?
I'd  
AcidTest : 1/16/2018 12:35 pm : link
be surprised if Cockrell isn't resigned. Apple may have a "clean slate," but he's also reaching the end of his safe status as a top 10 pick. DRC may also leave.
They should tweak things  
Jay on the Island : 1/16/2018 12:36 pm : link
They should also take a QB with the 2nd pick but still try to win now as there are pieces in place especially with Eli returning. They need to fix the offensive line, add a LB, and a RB to team with Gallman and they are ready to compete for a playoff spot.
seems like giants are going towards just tweaking things  
micky : 1/16/2018 12:41 pm : link
not rebuild. Imo, they should've rebuild now instead of patchwork like last go around
RE: RE: I think there are going to be some painful moves  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/16/2018 12:42 pm : link
In comment 13792347 paesan98 said:
Quote:

Gidie, I agree with everything you say, with perhaps, one minor caveat. Is DRC's contract out of line when you factor in that Apple may not come around, either mentally or with his play on the field?


DRC only played about 1/3 of the snaps last year -- I don't see that increasing -- he's ripe for a salary cut -- Apple will not be allowed to sabotage the team -- Gettleman has a good track record with Drafting CBs -- there are going to be CBs and OLs drafted this year no matter what happens in FA

Also he will sign a vet kicker and a vet punter and there will be a real competition in camp this year -- Everyone has to earn a spot here
RE: STL  
STLGiant : 1/16/2018 12:44 pm : link
In comment 13792131 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
So, is what your saying:

'QB hell is not just not having one...its paying top $$ for one who doesn't perform'

That makes sense to me.


ABSOLUTELY! If we truly knew that Webb was just another Nassib it would be one thing, but we don't know (or the Giants know and don't want to publicize). I know that both offensive and defensive players are saying good things about Webb, something that only one Giant ever said about Nassib. I could only find one quote on the web, by his college teammate and possibly another former Giant, Justin Pugh saying he could become an NFL QB. Unfortunately, the Browns, Saints, Cowboys all kicked the tires and let him and his sub 47% completion rate go. Think he's currently the #4 QB for Jacksonville Jags...isn't that camp fodder material?
RE: RE: RE: I think there are going to be some painful moves  
paesan98 : 1/16/2018 12:46 pm : link
In comment 13792382 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13792347 paesan98 said:


Quote:



Gidie, I agree with everything you say, with perhaps, one minor caveat. Is DRC's contract out of line when you factor in that Apple may not come around, either mentally or with his play on the field?



DRC only played about 1/3 of the snaps last year -- I don't see that increasing -- he's ripe for a salary cut -- Apple will not be allowed to sabotage the team -- Gettleman has a good track record with Drafting CBs -- there are going to be CBs and OLs drafted this year no matter what happens in FA

Also he will sign a vet kicker and a vet punter and there will be a real competition in camp this year -- Everyone has to earn a spot here


OK, thanks for the clarification. I don't get to see many games- live near Bumfuck, Egypt (Indianapolis). Chose not to waste my money at the bar this year
RE: I think there are going to be some painful moves  
AcesUp : 1/16/2018 12:52 pm : link
In comment 13792311 gidiefor said:
Quote:


DRC - either takes a cut or is gone imo
JPP - too painful to cut in 2018
OV - also too painful to cut in 2018
Eli - not going to be cut in 2018 -- that idea even in modified form cost the last GM and HC their jobs
Harris -- likely gone
Marshall -- he's a ?



The idea of cutting Eli in 2018 should be discussed. I don't care where you stand on it, due diligence puts that on the table. I'm personally in the camp that thinks he has a couple of good years in him, just not with our team. 23M is a lot for a placeholder on a team with tons of holes that probably needs those resources. I can understand the argument for keeping him, but this is a real conversation that needs to be discussed at length internally.
yeah  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/16/2018 12:57 pm : link
they discussed it -- and decided -- not going to happen
There are longterm benefits  
AcesUp : 1/16/2018 12:58 pm : link
to moving on from Eli sooner rather than later. It's more likely than not that he's our starting QB week 1, but it's not something I would bank on as certainty.
Lets blow the whole thing up  
Alwaysblue22 : 1/16/2018 1:16 pm : link
So we can suck like the Browns and have the first or second pick next year... that makes a of sense dosen't it..lets get rid of Snaks, OV, JPP Landon Collins, DRC, Jackrabbit on defense, Odell Beckham,, Evan Engram, Sterling Sheppard, Wayne Gallman on offense and of course the OVER THE HILL Eli Manning.. then we can rebuild with a new QB taken with the second pick..make sense? Or we could draft the o-lineman we need and a bigger fiercer Running back and let that old Goat Eli Manning run the offense, and add some fast linebackers and perhaps a safety on defense.. but then we will not have that Next GUARANTEED franchise QB you hear about on the NEWS. I dont know about any of you but I do not believe our next great Franchise is THREE YEARS FROM NOW. We have the foundation of it RIGHT NOW. Webb is in the plans and he is working hard to replace Eli when that becomes necessary.
They're not going to blow the whole thing up  
JonC : 1/16/2018 1:38 pm : link
I expect them to go QB at #2, work hard to rebuild the OL, the culture of the locker room, and figure out which big salaries can lose now.
and as Milton said  
JonC : 1/16/2018 1:38 pm : link
going QB at #2 doesn't necessarily mean the Eli Era ends immediately.
No, but it does mean  
AcesUp : 1/16/2018 1:54 pm : link
The Eli era is ending before his contract expires. I think drafting a QB at 2 means you are addressing Eli this offseason or next. There's no precedent for a QB drafted that high sitting for 2 years in the modern era. So you are putting Eli on the clock.

Assessing your priorities and the question at hand in this thread, is it better to do so now than next offseason?
RE: The biggest issue is going to pay or not to pay Beckham  
ajr2456 : 1/16/2018 1:55 pm : link
In comment 13792124 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Is it a good idea to pay a WR what figures to be $18M-$20M a year for 4 or 5 years?

This isn't proof of anything, but the highest cap number of any WR still alive in these playoffs is Brandin Cooks at $8.459M. He is in the last year of his rookie deal. Does anyone think the Patriots will give him a big contract? Me neither.


Three of the four QBs left have small cap hits. Maybe they should cut Eli and start Rosen.
RE: and as Milton said  
AcidTest : 1/16/2018 2:05 pm : link
In comment 13792561 JonC said:
Quote:
going QB at #2 doesn't necessarily mean the Eli Era ends immediately.


I think the Giants will take a QB at #2, but I'm not as convinced they will as you are. I base my conclusion on Eli's age, it being a QB rich draft, and the fact that most coaches and GMs want their own QB. Webb was picked by a prior regime.

But if the Browns pick Darnold, that leaves the Giants with Rosen and Allen. His talent notwithstanding, Rosen may be excluded because of his injury history and off the field comments. Allen is too raw for the #2 pick, although that's who I would take if forced to choose between the three. That would leave Barkley or a trade down.

Even if the Giants don't think Webb is Eli's successor, they may not also think that any QB is worthy of the #2 pick. The Giants could also use a day two pick on a QB to compete with Webb. My sleeper is Benkert from UVA.
Jon...  
ryanmkeane : 1/16/2018 2:06 pm : link
you think Gettleman would think hard about Barkley at 2?
RE: RE: and as Milton said  
JonC : 1/16/2018 2:12 pm : link
In comment 13792668 AcidTest said:
Quote:
In comment 13792561 JonC said:


Quote:


going QB at #2 doesn't necessarily mean the Eli Era ends immediately.



I think the Giants will take a QB at #2, but I'm not as convinced they will as you are. I base my conclusion on Eli's age, it being a QB rich draft, and the fact that most coaches and GMs want their own QB. Webb was picked by a prior regime.

But if the Browns pick Darnold, that leaves the Giants with Rosen and Allen. His talent notwithstanding, Rosen may be excluded because of his injury history and off the field comments. Allen is too raw for the #2 pick, although that's who I would take if forced to choose between the three. That would leave Barkley or a trade down.

Even if the Giants don't think Webb is Eli's successor, they may not also think that any QB is worthy of the #2 pick. The Giants could also use a day two pick on a QB to compete with Webb. My sleeper is Benkert from UVA.


I don't think they'll force a QB, but I don't think Webb's presence plays a role either.

I'd concur a long look at Barkley or seek to trade down and secure Connor Williams if he rises could wind up the best option if no QB at #2.
Some solid points here  
Peppers : 1/16/2018 2:17 pm : link
But I think its mainly tweaks with the exception of a few positions. You have to look at key factors here.

1. We brought back Gettleman who has a bit of a reputation as a henchman. He'll make the tough decisions.

2. Shurmur has success with the OL and with QBs. Both of which are what separated him from other candidates.


Obviously they'll blow up the entire OL and they'll use a lot of our assets to repair it.

4 of the last 5 seasons we've had losing records.. Thats with Eli at the helm. If they have the intention of drafting a QB with the second overall pick (which is a very safe bet) they will move on from Eli. I think some fans need to better prepare themselves for that.

Shurmur will have the 2nd overall pick, Davis Webb, and more than likely they add a vet like Bradford to help bridge the gap. Much like they did with Warner/Eli.

The defensive philosophy throughout the organization needs to change. And by that I mean, we need to understand the importance of LBs to a defense. Then we need to add quality depth along the dline. Both of which really hindered our Defense this past season.


RE: RE: RE: I think there are going to be some painful moves  
shyster : 1/16/2018 2:17 pm : link
In comment 13792382 gidiefor said:
Quote:


DRC only played about 1/3 of the snaps last year -- I don't see that increasing -- he's ripe for a salary cut


Agree with most of your points but DRC at only 33% defensive snaps didn't sound right.

Actually played 55% of defensive snaps in 2017. And adjusting for one game he was suspended would put the figure near 60%. Not that much of a drop from 2016's 66%.
is there really that much "tearing down" to be done?  
Victor in CT : 1/16/2018 2:18 pm : link
Defense: No LBs AT ALL. Nothing real at FS. Corners are all ?? due to age (DRC), attitude (Jenkins, more so Apple), FA (Cockrell). DEs are not good and overpaid, probably can't be cut. DT ans SS the only + positions they have right now.

Offense: Line a mess. Flowers probably gets 1 more chance. Pugh and Richburg prob gone and aren't very good anyway. WRs Beckham a mega talent IF he learns to behave. ANd he may not stay. Shepard a good support/slot guy, Then what? TE a + position. RBs Gallman may be a good NFL back but not a a star. PErkins regressed. Darkwa not worth keeping. I keep Eli even if they draft a QB. Rookie scale does not make that prohibitive.

ST: Both kickers stink.

They already are in rebuild mode.

RE: Dinger  
Victor in CT : 1/16/2018 2:22 pm : link
In comment 13792037 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I'm playing devil's advocate, but isn't the 11-5 season the outlier at this point?


Yes it most definitely is
RE: yeah  
Thegratefulhead : 1/16/2018 2:28 pm : link
In comment 13792434 gidiefor said:
Quote:
they discussed it -- and decided -- not going to happen
Had not read that..link? You think they told the HC candidates, "Eli is going to be on our payroll regardless of which QB you believe gives us the best chance to win. He is not getting cut, traded or demoted."
Count me in the minority  
ryanmkeane : 1/16/2018 2:36 pm : link
that doesn't believe 2016 was an outlier.

2015 - basically the same team went 6-10 and if not for just clear cut bad game management, we beat Atlanta, New Orleans, Jets, and beat the Pats if Collins catches that INT. Yes, we went 6-10, but the team wasn't that far off from being good.
RE: RE: yeah  
Peppers : 1/16/2018 2:37 pm : link
In comment 13792734 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 13792434 gidiefor said:


Quote:


they discussed it -- and decided -- not going to happen

Had not read that..link? You think they told the HC candidates, "Eli is going to be on our payroll regardless of which QB you believe gives us the best chance to win. He is not getting cut, traded or demoted."


Honestly, that statement sounds more like wishful thinking. Fact remains, Mara signed off on benching Eli Manning. Lets not omit that.
If Eli sucks  
Alwaysblue22 : 1/16/2018 3:23 pm : link
Who wold take him in a Trade? Some say Jacksonville. I say our D has the personal to be like Jax only with Eli as the QB instead of Bortles
Original question.  
Thegratefulhead : 1/16/2018 3:48 pm : link
Back to Eric’s original question rebuild or tweek. Also, it seems Eric is asking, “What do you think the Giants will do” not “What should the Giants do” These are 2 different questions that often get confused here.

Gettlemen. What has he said, what has he done? The answers to these question give us our best insight on to what he might do. I would think the new HC will get input as well. I am going to assume for the sake of discussion Shurmur gets input here as well.

Gettlemen likes “Hog Mollies” his actions as GM seem to back up his words. I think he spends draft picks(more than 1) for both the OL and DL. I think this works well with Shurmur as HC. Gettlemen does not like to give up on talent. How many humans on this planet can cover NFL receivers man to man? Jenkins stays because he still does what he is paid for, very well. I expect us to sign FA OL and DL. He is going to be driven to prove he can "find" another Norwell or O'Hara.

Gettlemen likes to grind tape. What does he see when he studies Eli? I am going to guess here, best anyone can do is GUESS. I think he sees the same arm talent that he always had. He might be a notch slower making decisions. I think he sees a QB that is below average in accuracy. What Shurmur wants here will count heavily. You don’t bring in a QB guru coach and not listen to him. My guess is they try to free up some money with Eli(re-structure or pay cut depending on what the tape reveals) If Eli is strongly against this, they cut or trade him and use that money to rebuild roster. Shurmur did it with Foles and Keenum, why couldn’t he do it with Webb or a high draft pick.

All of that said. I am a small business owner and have been a hiring manager for most of the last 30 years. I like to hire people when I start and make them loyal to me, develop them. I need people who buy into what I am selling, not people who say “We used to do it this way and it worked fine” I think Free Agents and former draft picks not producing to their level of pay need to be on very short notice. I will often shoot an Indian(not PC to say anymore, sorry, I’m old) I think Gettlemen shoots some Indians to get attention.

Based on his earlier dealings with FA’s I don’t think he breaks the bank for OBJ. If OBJ wants to be the highest paid player in the NFL, he will do it elsewhere. If I had to pick one wild thing that might happen. OBJ gets traded on draft day. Just a hunch, maybe to Indy for the number 3 pick. Luck would sure like to have him.
RE: Gettleman himself said  
Big_Pete : 1/16/2018 3:49 pm : link
In comment 13791936 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
that if he told Mara he would need X amount of years to turn this around that he probably wouldn't get the job. Call it what you want but I would imagine that both Gettleman and Shurmur are not thinking about rebuilding at the expense of losing next year or the year after. They will do what they think will have them succeeding at a championship level soon than most would think. That doesn't mean he will not cut some high priced players. Gettleman's first goal is to reestablish a winning culture.


Very good point, I was going to comment along similar lines.

Going back to Eric's original post, I expect Gettlemen will do a mix of tweak and rebuild.

He will get contracts/locker room under control. But I could see something of a rebuild on the offensive line and possibly at LB.

I'm very late to the thread, but I think it will be a combination.  
yatqb : 1/16/2018 4:13 pm : link
I expect us to draft a QB early and to have him playing by mid-season next year; given that, it's a rebuild of sorts.

But I expect us to also invest heavily and quickly in the Oline, so that our offense quickly becomes more multidimensional. I also expect us to land a LB or two, so that the middle and intermediate areas of the field aren't devoid of talent.

With those changes I think that we can be relatively respectable next year, and back in contention in 2 seasons.
there are players who are overpaid  
fkap : 1/16/2018 4:16 pm : link
such as Vernon, but really only a few well paid players who are dead weight, such as Harris or Marshall. JPP's last year was dreadfully pathetic, but I wouldn't give up on him yet. He may still bring something to the field knowing from here on out any year could be his last highly paid year.

There's not a lot of players you would question whether or not to cut. On this roster, there's a lot of players who obviously need an upgrade, so you're likely to see a lot of turnover, even if there aren't a lot of sexy moves.

You also have some FA who simply aren't worth bringing back at the price they'll want, such as Pugh.

Bottom line is that this team has a lot of room for improvement. 'Blow it up and rebuild' is what you do when you have a lot of aging vets past their prime. We've got a bunch of players who never had a prime.
RE: Original question.  
ajr2456 : 1/16/2018 4:27 pm : link
In comment 13792916 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:

Based on his earlier dealings with FA’s I don’t think he breaks the bank for OBJ. If OBJ wants to be the highest paid player in the NFL, he will do it elsewhere. If I had to pick one wild thing that might happen. OBJ gets traded on draft day. Just a hunch, maybe to Indy for the number 3 pick. Luck would sure like to have him.


The only time what you're referencing to happened in Carolina was with Norman. Norman is nowhere near the talent that Odell is.
RE: RE: RE: I think there are going to be some painful moves  
adamg : 1/16/2018 5:40 pm : link
In comment 13792382 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 13792347 paesan98 said:


Quote:



Gidie, I agree with everything you say, with perhaps, one minor caveat. Is DRC's contract out of line when you factor in that Apple may not come around, either mentally or with his play on the field?



DRC only played about 1/3 of the snaps last year -- I don't see that increasing -- he's ripe for a salary cut -- Apple will not be allowed to sabotage the team -- Gettleman has a good track record with Drafting CBs -- there are going to be CBs and OLs drafted this year no matter what happens in FA

Also he will sign a vet kicker and a vet punter and there will be a real competition in camp this year -- Everyone has to earn a spot here


DRC played 54.9 percent of defensive snaps and 33.8 percent of specials teams snaps.

RE: RE: The biggest issue is going to pay or not to pay Beckham  
Go Terps : 1/16/2018 5:49 pm : link
In comment 13792639 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13792124 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Is it a good idea to pay a WR what figures to be $18M-$20M a year for 4 or 5 years?

This isn't proof of anything, but the highest cap number of any WR still alive in these playoffs is Brandin Cooks at $8.459M. He is in the last year of his rookie deal. Does anyone think the Patriots will give him a big contract? Me neither.



Three of the four QBs left have small cap hits. Maybe they should cut Eli and start Rosen.


That's exactly what I would do.
This was already one of the youngest teams in the NFL  
eclipz928 : 1/16/2018 5:52 pm : link
last season - they can't get much younger. They'll tweak.
RE: RE: Original question.  
Thegratefulhead : 1/16/2018 5:59 pm : link
In comment 13792993 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13792916 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:



Based on his earlier dealings with FA’s I don’t think he breaks the bank for OBJ. If OBJ wants to be the highest paid player in the NFL, he will do it elsewhere. If I had to pick one wild thing that might happen. OBJ gets traded on draft day. Just a hunch, maybe to Indy for the number 3 pick. Luck would sure like to have him.



The only time what you're referencing to happened in Carolina was with Norman. Norman is nowhere near the talent that Odell is.
He let popular FA players walk that thought they worth more than he did. Yes Odell is WAY WAY better, but Odell wants more money than a QB. How does that fit on our roster with JPP, Vernon, and Eli. We cannot fit anymore overpaid players. Odell is one soft tissue injury away from being irrelevant. He lose that burst and he is just a guy, doesn't JJones or Megatron's size. I would not make Odell the NFL highest paid receiver never mind the highest paid player like he wants.
RE: RE: RE: The biggest issue is going to pay or not to pay Beckham  
ajr2456 : 1/16/2018 5:59 pm : link
In comment 13793189 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13792639 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13792124 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Is it a good idea to pay a WR what figures to be $18M-$20M a year for 4 or 5 years?

This isn't proof of anything, but the highest cap number of any WR still alive in these playoffs is Brandin Cooks at $8.459M. He is in the last year of his rookie deal. Does anyone think the Patriots will give him a big contract? Me neither.



Three of the four QBs left have small cap hits. Maybe they should cut Eli and start Rosen.



That's exactly what I would do.


Only 6 times has a team with QB that takes up more than 10% of the cap won a Super Bowl.

1994: Young
1996: Favre
2006: Peyton
2011: Eli
2014: Brady
2015: Peyton
RE: RE: RE: Original question.  
ajr2456 : 1/16/2018 6:01 pm : link
In comment 13793201 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 13792993 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13792916 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:



Based on his earlier dealings with FA’s I don’t think he breaks the bank for OBJ. If OBJ wants to be the highest paid player in the NFL, he will do it elsewhere. If I had to pick one wild thing that might happen. OBJ gets traded on draft day. Just a hunch, maybe to Indy for the number 3 pick. Luck would sure like to have him.



The only time what you're referencing to happened in Carolina was with Norman. Norman is nowhere near the talent that Odell is.

He let popular FA players walk that thought they worth more than he did. Yes Odell is WAY WAY better, but Odell wants more money than a QB. How does that fit on our roster with JPP, Vernon, and Eli. We cannot fit anymore overpaid players. Odell is one soft tissue injury away from being irrelevant. He lose that burst and he is just a guy, doesn't JJones or Megatron's size. I would not make Odell the NFL highest paid receiver never mind the highest paid player like he wants.


Which popular FA? He lost his job because he wanted to move on from older high priced vets like Davis, Smith and Olsen.

And any player is one soft tissue injury away from being irrelevant. Heck, any player could be irrelevant after the first play of preseason next year due to a hit.
RE: RE: The biggest issue is going to pay or not to pay Beckham  
Thegratefulhead : 1/16/2018 6:11 pm : link
In comment 13792639 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13792124 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Is it a good idea to pay a WR what figures to be $18M-$20M a year for 4 or 5 years?

This isn't proof of anything, but the highest cap number of any WR still alive in these playoffs is Brandin Cooks at $8.459M. He is in the last year of his rookie deal. Does anyone think the Patriots will give him a big contract? Me neither.



Three of the four QBs left have small cap hits. Maybe they should cut Eli and start Rosen.
I would, getting paid the same as Brady but WAY WAY less production. Antonio Brown have ring? Julio Jones? Calvin Johnson? Owens? Moss? Great WR make great highlights, sell lots of jersey's. In a salary cap league my money would be spent on the QB and both lines. If we make OBJ the highest paid player in the league be prepared to suck until he is gone, too much resources in a wideout.
RE: RE: RE: The biggest issue is going to pay or not to pay Beckham  
ajr2456 : 1/16/2018 6:14 pm : link
In comment 13793227 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 13792639 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13792124 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Is it a good idea to pay a WR what figures to be $18M-$20M a year for 4 or 5 years?

This isn't proof of anything, but the highest cap number of any WR still alive in these playoffs is Brandin Cooks at $8.459M. He is in the last year of his rookie deal. Does anyone think the Patriots will give him a big contract? Me neither.



Three of the four QBs left have small cap hits. Maybe they should cut Eli and start Rosen.

I would, getting paid the same as Brady but WAY WAY less production. Antonio Brown have ring? Julio Jones? Calvin Johnson? Owens? Moss? Great WR make great highlights, sell lots of jersey's. In a salary cap league my money would be spent on the QB and both lines. If we make OBJ the highest paid player in the league be prepared to suck until he is gone, too much resources in a wideout.


See above. Only 5 QBs have won a title having hire than 10% of the cap. You can make that case for any position
RE: RE: RE: RE: The biggest issue is going to pay or not to pay Beckham  
Thegratefulhead : 1/16/2018 6:29 pm : link
In comment 13793233 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13793227 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 13792639 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13792124 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Is it a good idea to pay a WR what figures to be $18M-$20M a year for 4 or 5 years?

This isn't proof of anything, but the highest cap number of any WR still alive in these playoffs is Brandin Cooks at $8.459M. He is in the last year of his rookie deal. Does anyone think the Patriots will give him a big contract? Me neither.



Three of the four QBs left have small cap hits. Maybe they should cut Eli and start Rosen.

I would, getting paid the same as Brady but WAY WAY less production. Antonio Brown have ring? Julio Jones? Calvin Johnson? Owens? Moss? Great WR make great highlights, sell lots of jersey's. In a salary cap league my money would be spent on the QB and both lines. If we make OBJ the highest paid player in the league be prepared to suck until he is gone, too much resources in a wideout.



See above. Only 5 QBs have won a title having hire than 10% of the cap. You can make that case for any position
You will find exactly ZERO WRs which is the point. A small, diva WR prone(not fair but he has missed games)to injury cannot be paid like a QB if you expect to compete in a salary cap league. I am not an OBJ hater. 14-15 million/ year for 4-5 sign me up....If he is thinking 20 per...GTFO.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: The biggest issue is going to pay or not to pay Beckham  
ajr2456 : 1/16/2018 6:41 pm : link
In comment 13793251 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 13793233 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13793227 Thegratefulhead said:


Quote:


In comment 13792639 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13792124 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Is it a good idea to pay a WR what figures to be $18M-$20M a year for 4 or 5 years?

This isn't proof of anything, but the highest cap number of any WR still alive in these playoffs is Brandin Cooks at $8.459M. He is in the last year of his rookie deal. Does anyone think the Patriots will give him a big contract? Me neither.



Three of the four QBs left have small cap hits. Maybe they should cut Eli and start Rosen.

I would, getting paid the same as Brady but WAY WAY less production. Antonio Brown have ring? Julio Jones? Calvin Johnson? Owens? Moss? Great WR make great highlights, sell lots of jersey's. In a salary cap league my money would be spent on the QB and both lines. If we make OBJ the highest paid player in the league be prepared to suck until he is gone, too much resources in a wideout.



See above. Only 5 QBs have won a title having hire than 10% of the cap. You can make that case for any position

You will find exactly ZERO WRs which is the point. A small, diva WR prone(not fair but he has missed games)to injury cannot be paid like a QB if you expect to compete in a salary cap league. I am not an OBJ hater. 14-15 million/ year for 4-5 sign me up....If he is thinking 20 per...GTFO.


Or he can, if you have a QB on a rookie contract. Having a QB taking up over 10% of your cap has only won when the QB was Hall of Famer.
My vote  
Mark from Jersey : 1/16/2018 7:18 pm : link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM5MHUs76CE
RE: This was already one of the youngest teams in the NFL  
The_Boss : 1/16/2018 8:54 pm : link
In comment 13793193 eclipz928 said:
Quote:
last season - they can't get much younger. They'll tweak.


6th youngest
In theory, the players should get better. But, in reality, how many of our guys 25 and younger do we have faith of actually becoming very good players?
Looking at the roster page, I counted just 4: Shep, Collins, Engram, and Tomlinson. That’s not nearly enough.
Gentleman isn’t going to make that distinction...  
baadbill : 1/17/2018 7:22 am : link
He’s going to make the moves he thinks will build a winning team.

It’s a virtual certainty some of his decisions will be met with derision by that special group on BBI who actually believe they know more than the 32 people on earth who are actually paid by the NFL to be General Managers. Like whatever his decision is with Eli.
There are SOME good pieces here  
Carson53 : 1/17/2018 9:09 am : link
if they can get their heads out of their collective asses!
I wouldn't say they need a total rebuild, but a retooling for sure. If that includes moving on from Eli, so be it.
I am not sure how some can say Rosen is ready to start in
this league as well, you have no clue util you see him perform in the NFL. What he did in the PAC-12, doesn't matter at the next level. He could be the most pro ready,
still you have to see it. I think it would be silly not
to go QB at No. 2 however.
Gidie Analysis  
Percy : 1/17/2018 9:44 am : link
First rate! The DE situation is a real challenge. The two overpaid starters are no longer true assets -- so what to do about the position? Of course, the OL, LB, and S situations are not easy to fix either.
RE: There are SOME good pieces here  
Victor in CT : 1/17/2018 9:56 am : link
In comment 13793719 Carson53 said:
Quote:
if they can get their heads out of their collective asses!
I wouldn't say they need a total rebuild, but a retooling for sure. If that includes moving on from Eli, so be it.
I am not sure how some can say Rosen is ready to start in
this league as well, you have no clue util you see him perform in the NFL. What he did in the PAC-12, doesn't matter at the next level. He could be the most pro ready,
still you have to see it. I think it would be silly not
to go QB at No. 2 however.


even if the QBs aren't rated worthy of a #2 overall?
RE: RE: There are SOME good pieces here  
Carson53 : 1/17/2018 10:19 am : link
In comment 13793789 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 13793719 Carson53 said:


Quote:


if they can get their heads out of their collective asses!
I wouldn't say they need a total rebuild, but a retooling for sure. If that includes moving on from Eli, so be it.
I am not sure how some can say Rosen is ready to start in
this league as well, you have no clue util you see him perform in the NFL. What he did in the PAC-12, doesn't matter at the next level. He could be the most pro ready,
still you have to see it. I think it would be silly not
to go QB at No. 2 however.



even if the QBs aren't rated worthy of a #2 overall?


Says who exactly? They are no worse than what has been coming out in recent years in my book.
People can quibble with that if they like, that's just
the way I see it...
as Eli gets older and his talents continue to diminish  
Jersey55 : 1/17/2018 4:36 pm : link
he puts extra pressure on the team to get better O line talent to protect him, and that makes him a burden...
one more thing on the Eli subject  
Jersey55 : 1/17/2018 4:46 pm : link
suppose we pass on a QB in round 1 in the hope that Eli can play better for a new head coach and we pick a different position and Eli flops again because he's just too old and the game has passed him by like it does for every QB who ever played the position, then we've wasted the opportunity to get a round 1 franchise QB, then what...
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