I’ve been scouring twitter since the steeler game and I’m struck by the outpouring of love from Jags fans to him and how they basically view him as savior of the franchise. People can quibble with how much credit he actually deserves there and how many players he acquired, but the owner has made it clear he is the boss, the coach answers to him, he instills the culture. And look at it from a Jags fan perspective... he is their first coach, the tie to the glory years and 2 afc title games. There is the nostalgia that comes with that. Then of course he returns and after a decade of futility they instantly transform, no matter how you want to divide the credit that indeed happened.
I guess what I’m saying is the point of this post is that Coughlin holds a place in Jags lore that is at least on par if not greater than what he holds here. He basically is the historical face of the Jags franchise in the eyes on their fans. He never sold his home there. He always kept ties. He will want to hold onto this job as long as he can. It’s rare you see a guy who holds such a high place with 2 organizations. Of course it helps that the Jags history is limited
Coughlin & Gilbride should have been retained after 2013 & 2014 should have been the year for Coughlin AND Reese to either win or the house cleaned.
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Odell Beckham lost his temper and got suspended with Coughlin apparently not realizing what was going on.
He made a number of bad moves throughout the year that cost the team games - going for it on 4th down against the Jets (and losing in OT by a FG). Throwing the ball on 3rd down against the Cowboys in the opener when a run would have almost certainly iced the game. He did an awful job managing the end of games in his last year - something I never thought was a strength of his, but was exacerbated that year.
Awful time management. Dumb decisions during crunch time. It was quickly looking like the game was passing him by. Being completely oblivious to what is happening on the field between OBJ and Norman was pretty much the final straw for me.
I don't think the game was necessarily passing him by - he was just never great with end-of-game clock management. There have been a number of mistakes over the years that we got over.
And I agree on the Norman/Odell stuff - that's when I felt like he had to go.
But he wasn't exactly a flexible, adaptive kind of coach.
But the moving on should have been upstairs at Jints Central. He should have been hired to replace the incompetent Reese. I've thought TC had the stuff to be an interesting GM because he essentially wore that hat for the Jags. Just look at this ability to find WR talent. It's as good as it gets - from his time with the Jags to his time with the Jints.
And this is the core of some of the dumbest threads on this site, and it is worst with Coughlin and Eli. They put these guys on a pedestal and want everyone to agree they are responsible for all that is good and have no responsibility for what is bad.
Coughlin can be a good coach whose message and tactics just grew stale here. Suggesting that does not make you anti-Coughlin or not a "real" Giants fan.
Eli's play can be deteriorating WHILE the offensive line sucks. They are not mutually exclusive events where you have to pick one or the other as the cause of the offensive struggles. This offense struggles for a myriad of reasons.
I reached out to the Giants in search of something to put in her room.
TC wrote her a long and personal letter. And called and followed up with notes and letters for months afterwards. Never met her. Never would. He was not asked. He was not rewarded. wrote and spoke to her about courage and dealing with trying times. It made a difference. It made a big difference. Seeing her smile and cry in relief when she opened that first letter....wow.
So to me...im happy his works somehow have a karmic outcome. Too often life does not work that way.
Thanks for the thread. Weird you get shit for a thread on a site filled with so so so much better threads.
Wonderful story, Bill. See, that's the man I choose to remember. Not only a great football coach but a great man period.
What happened to Coughlin was that the cupboard wasn't stocked properly. The wrong people were fired, and it happened over a period of a couple of years, starting with Gilbride. Jerry Reese was the last man standing, now we have completely scorched earth.
All speculation on my part. Injuries combined with Reese getting TC the wrong players(and missing on) for Gilbride's system is what sank the franchise and wasted Eli's prime. It pisses me off, still. I know at the end TC mismanaged the clock but that was fixable. it is much harder to find a person of TCs character that can actually lead grown ass men.
Coughlin just hung around the war room because he had nothing better to do.
Calais Campbell, Dante Fowler Jr., Malik Jackson, Marcel Dareus, Myles Jack, Telvin Smith, Jalen Ramsey, A.J. Bouye, Tashaun Gipson, Barry Church. And even the vet ringleader MLB in Paul Poz.
That is 10 or 11 big time players. It's a Pro Bowl team - great at all 3 levels. TC made a genius moving signing Campbell though. He brought it all together. He's their War Daddy.
We won't know the full story, obviously, but acting like TC was a bystander while he was advocating for the real talented players is a bit silly.
First, you cannot say MacAdoo was an upgrade from Coughlin. Say what you will about the coach or GM or whoever being responsible, we would be better off with Coughlin. He is a better coach.
Second, Jerry Reese was fired. So I am not sure how you can think in retrospect, that Coughlin was the problem, while supporting firing Reese. In retrospect, the organization should have changed the GM years ago. We failed to upgrade at GM when we should have. We then failed to upgrade at HC as well.
I am having trouble seeing why the Coughlin "apologists" were in any way wrong. Their view looks correct to me. We will never know how we would have done with a new GM, and infusion of defensive talent, and TC as coach. Yes we were a losing team, but we lost without him as well, and this after a significant upgrade in defensive talent.
Would it have been possible to do better with another option at HC, might they have been able to save Reese's job ... maybe, but we'll never know.
As for right now, if mistakes were made, they were made. I wish TC the best and I hope we make better management and roster decisions moving forward.
I am rooting for JAX. I don't think it is all Coughlin there, they have been accumulating talent for years. Congrats to them.
And the same people who now gnash their teeth about how the dastardly Reese continually sabotaged poor TC once crowed about his peerless eye for talent and how much he added to their draft efforts. I remember very clearly being told that the Giants' draft fortunes turned around after 2003 because that boob Fassel was gone and now Coughlin was working hand in hand with Reese on scouting.
I think a lot of people would agree that having him retained in some capacity within the organization would have been really cool. We all love the guy. But it was time for a new head coach.
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Britt in VA : 11:59 am : link : reply
It's weird, they don't want to give Coughlin any praise,
I'd say it's more us being realistic. He didn't hire the coach, he didn't build the team. It's also us knowing that if the Jaguars went 6-10 this season and someone mentioned Coughlin the Britts and HomerJones's's would be saying, "Coughlin isn't the coach! He can't just walk in and wave a magic wand and fix the team."
If you want to live in the la-la land of your serial misrepresentations, that is your business.
First, you cannot say MacAdoo was an upgrade from Coughlin. Say what you will about the coach or GM or whoever being responsible, we would be better off with Coughlin. He is a better coach.
Second, Jerry Reese was fired. So I am not sure how you can think in retrospect, that Coughlin was the problem, while supporting firing Reese. In retrospect, the organization should have changed the GM years ago. We failed to upgrade at GM when we should have. We then failed to upgrade at HC as well.
I am having trouble seeing why the Coughlin "apologists" were in any way wrong. Their view looks correct to me. We will never know how we would have done with a new GM, and infusion of defensive talent, and TC as coach. Yes we were a losing team, but we lost without him as well, and this after a significant upgrade in defensive talent.
Would it have been possible to do better with another option at HC, might they have been able to save Reese's job ... maybe, but we'll never know.
As for right now, if mistakes were made, they were made. I wish TC the best and I hope we make better management and roster decisions moving forward.
I am rooting for JAX. I don't think it is all Coughlin there, they have been accumulating talent for years. Congrats to them.
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Britt in VA : 11:59 am : link : reply
It's weird, they don't want to give Coughlin any praise,
I'd say it's more us being realistic. He didn't hire the coach, he didn't build the team. It's also us knowing that if the Jaguars went 6-10 this season and someone mentioned Coughlin the Britts and HomerJones's's would be saying, "Coughlin isn't the coach! He can't just walk in and wave a magic wand and fix the team."
He did hire the coach and he did build the team which won 3 games the year before. If they had won 6 games, they would have had their most successful season in 7 years. They far exceeded that.
If you want to live in the la-la land of your serial misrepresentations, that is your business.
The owner chose to keep Marrone. You're making shit up.
NYT - ( New Window )
And they can't stand you. It's a hell of a match.
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Britt in VA : 11:59 am : link : reply
It's weird, they don't want to give Coughlin any praise,
I'd say it's more us being realistic. He didn't hire the coach, he didn't build the team. It's also us knowing that if the Jaguars went 6-10 this season and someone mentioned Coughlin the Britts and HomerJones's's would be saying, "Coughlin isn't the coach! He can't just walk in and wave a magic wand and fix the team."
He did hire the coach and he did build the team which won 3 games the year before. If they had won 6 games, they would have had their most successful season in 7 years. They far exceeded that.
If you want to live in the la-la land of your serial misrepresentations, that is your business.
I keep seeing you say this. It's not correct.
Maybe the Jags build a statue of him if they win it all. I think it is great, why would any Giant fan not like Coughlin?
This would have correlation if someone else hired Coughlin as a head coach. They didn’t.
The Jags could have hired him to coach, they didn’t. Just because Mcadoo was a failure doesn’t mean it wasn’t time to move on from TC.
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Britt in VA : 11:59 am : link : reply
It's weird, they don't want to give Coughlin any praise,
I'd say it's more us being realistic. He didn't hire the coach, he didn't build the team. It's also us knowing that if the Jaguars went 6-10 this season and someone mentioned Coughlin the Britts and HomerJones's's would be saying, "Coughlin isn't the coach! He can't just walk in and wave a magic wand and fix the team."
He did hire the coach and he did build the team which won 3 games the year before. If they had won 6 games, they would have had their most successful season in 7 years. They far exceeded that.
If you want to live in the la-la land of your serial misrepresentations, that is your business.
They were both hired on the same day.
TC is that dude.
But firing him was not the wrong decision. 4 years of no playoffs was pretty good evidence of that. It was BS that TC got fired and Reese didn't, but it was still the right decision.
Once again with most TC guys, TC isn't culpable in the least for 2012-2015. Yawn.
100% on point.
Backstabbed is a little dramatic. They gave him a franchise QB. Spent a lot of money on a free agent class that brought in three key pieces to the 2007 run. Gave him a dline with multiple pass rushers. Stuck with him in the early years despite the pressure to fire him.
Those two things right there indicated that in Mara's eyes, the coaching was the problem, not the personnel.
Turns out he was wrong, wrong wrong. The offense wasn't broken, but it no longer had the players to execute it.
Two, Jernigan wasn't a player! He was yet another horrible pick. But somehow, Reese convinced Mara that he actually was getting good players, and that the coaches weren't developing them properly.
When you look back at the drafts and acquisitions, and then you look at what Coughlin has done in such a short time in Jacksonville, it should all be pretty clear.
Ben McAdoo's lousy performance doesn't magically mean that firing a 69 year old coach who had four straight losing seasons and had missed the playoffs in 6 out of 7 seasons was some kind of outrage.
Bingo. Been saying this all along. THe mistake wasn't in moving on from COughlin, it was in keep Reese, Ross and the coaching staff in tact.
Hah. This really illustrates the point about people with saintly opinion for TC.
When you look back at the drafts and acquisitions, and then you look at what Coughlin has done in such a short time in Jacksonville, it should all be pretty clear.
Do you think Coughlin didn’t have a hand in the rosters when he was here?
Jalen Ramsey was already there. Malik Jackson was already there. Tashaun Gipson was already there. Telvin Smith was already there. Myles Jack was already there. Fowler was already there.
Coughlin had a hand in some important players coming over like Campbell and Bouye plus the drafting of Fournette and Robinson, but for fucks sake, can we stop acting like the guy assembled the entire team and coached them too?
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When you look back at the drafts and acquisitions, and then you look at what Coughlin has done in such a short time in Jacksonville, it should all be pretty clear.
Do you think Coughlin didn’t have a hand in the rosters when he was here?
Does he have a hand in Jacksonville's success? Because you have people here talking out of both sides of their mouth, playing up his involvement with the NYG roster as indicative that he was just as responsible for the failure as Reese, while downplaying his involvement in Jacksonville's dramatic turnaround.
That's what this discussion has been about.
I reached out to the Giants in search of something to put in her room.
TC wrote her a long and personal letter. And called and followed up with notes and letters for months afterwards. Never met her. Never would. He was not asked. He was not rewarded. wrote and spoke to her about courage and dealing with trying times. It made a difference. It made a big difference. Seeing her smile and cry in relief when she opened that first letter....wow.
So to me...im happy his works somehow have a karmic outcome. Too often life does not work that way.
Thanks for the thread. Weird you get shit for a thread on a site filled with so so so much better threads.
Great story.
Coughlin is amazing.
Now do us all a favor and beat the shit out of the Patriots this weekend...
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In comment 13792822 Britt in VA said:
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When you look back at the drafts and acquisitions, and then you look at what Coughlin has done in such a short time in Jacksonville, it should all be pretty clear.
Do you think Coughlin didn’t have a hand in the rosters when he was here?
Does he have a hand in Jacksonville's success? Because you have people here talking out of both sides of their mouth, playing up his involvement with the NYG roster as indicative that he was just as responsible for the failure as Reese, while downplaying his involvement in Jacksonville's dramatic turnaround.
That's what this discussion has been about.
He's not the GM or the coach. He's been there for barely over a calendar year, and most of the starters were there before he got there.
He was here for 11 years, odds are he had more of an impact on the situation here than in Jacksonville.
Jalen Ramsey was already there. Malik Jackson was already there. Tashaun Gipson was already there. Telvin Smith was already there. Myles Jack was already there. Fowler was already there.
facts, lol.
nah, just coughlin magic. woulda been 6-10 without him
Those two things right there indicated that in Mara's eyes, the coaching was the problem, not the personnel.
Turns out he was wrong, wrong wrong. The offense wasn't broken, but it no longer had the players to execute it.
Two, Jernigan wasn't a player! He was yet another horrible pick. But somehow, Reese convinced Mara that he actually was getting good players, and that the coaches weren't developing them properly.
When you look back at the drafts and acquisitions, and then you look at what Coughlin has done in such a short time in Jacksonville, it should all be pretty clear.
Yea, Jerry Reese would risk his job to sabotage Tom Coughlin - a guy who helped Reese win two Super Bowls and made him a lot of money.
Basically, they scapegoated TC by letting him go while promoting the OC, retaining the DC and keeping the FO. The only significant change was firing the HC.
It was pretty clear that things were broken on many fronts. If there was a time to clean house, so to say - that was it. New GM. New HC. New coordinators.
They basically put their hopes on the fact TC was the sole issue and McAdoo was the solution.
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has to be one of the dumbest I've ever seen around here. How exactly does a GM benefit from sabotaging his HC? The depths some of you will sink to put ALL of the blame on Reese are really weird.
Agree. "Sabotage" implies that somehow it was deliberate. Reese simply did not do a good job after about 2008, had a 200 million dollar rescue mission launched on his behalf and finally crashed and burned this year. He should have been fired when it became apparent that the 2009-2013 drafts and UDFA produced virtually nothing. If there was any doubt, he certainly should have been canned when Coughlin was let go but that is on the two boobs in the owner's box.
I have no problem with this post.
What I do disagree with is that it appears that some want to put all of the blame on Reese and very little to none on Coughlin's part in it... which was pretty substantial in my opinion.
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Cam Robinson is the only guy on that OL that wasn't there already.
Jalen Ramsey was already there. Malik Jackson was already there. Tashaun Gipson was already there. Telvin Smith was already there. Myles Jack was already there. Fowler was already there.
facts, lol.
nah, just coughlin magic. woulda been 6-10 without him
Here is a link with a list of the Jags players released and those signed in 2017. If you watched the game Sunday you may see some names you recognize. The list does not include Dareus who was acquired from Buffalo for a 6th rounder. Or Keelan Cole, signed as a rookie UDFA who caught 42 passes this year.
Facts. Try them for once.
Instead of trying to justify what now looks like one of the most foolish decisions ever, why not observe how a 3-13 team wins its division the following year- the first team since the merger in 1970 to do so- through a change in culture, the accurate appraisal of the roster, the astute gathering of talent and the philosophical alignment of a competent coach and front office.
List of players released and signed by the Jags in 2017 - ( New Window )
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In comment 13792919 arcarsenal said:
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Cam Robinson is the only guy on that OL that wasn't there already.
Jalen Ramsey was already there. Malik Jackson was already there. Tashaun Gipson was already there. Telvin Smith was already there. Myles Jack was already there. Fowler was already there.
facts, lol.
nah, just coughlin magic. woulda been 6-10 without him
and yet with these wonderful players, they won 3 whole games the year before and had not won more than 5 in 7 seasons.
Telvin Smith was in his second year. Ramsey was a rookie. How many wins would you expect out of a team whose best players have barely win in the league?
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In comment 13792919 arcarsenal said:
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Cam Robinson is the only guy on that OL that wasn't there already.
Jalen Ramsey was already there. Malik Jackson was already there. Tashaun Gipson was already there. Telvin Smith was already there. Myles Jack was already there. Fowler was already there.
facts, lol.
nah, just coughlin magic. woulda been 6-10 without him
and yet with these wonderful players, they won 3 whole games the year before and had not won more than 5 in 7 seasons.
Here is a link with a list of the Jags players released and those signed in 2017. If you watched the game Sunday you may see some names you recognize. The list does not include Dareus who was acquired from Buffalo for a 6th rounder. Or Keelan Cole, signed as a rookie UDFA who caught 42 passes this year.
Facts. Try them for once.
Instead of trying to justify what now looks like one of the most foolish decisions ever, why not observe how a 3-13 team wins its division the following year- the first team since the merger in 1970 to do so- through a change in culture, the accurate appraisal of the roster, the astute gathering of talent and the philosophical alignment of a competent coach and front office. List of players released and signed by the Jags in 2017 - ( New Window )
Marcel Dareus has 18 tackles and 1 sack in 9 games. Did you just see a name you recognize and think he was playing like a star? It's pretty obvious to most people that the Jaguars have been solid at finding talent in the draft. The same GM from before Coughlin is still there. Same guy who drafted Ramsey, Fowler, Yannick, Jack, and smith. The core of that team was excellent. Getting Calais Campbell was probably the move of the offseason.That UDFA reciever helping them now is playing because their best reciever blew an ACL. Allen Robinson is a 1400 yard reciever who they drafted years ago. The only reason to hand all the success to Coughlin as if they had no idea how to find players before he got there is homer nonsense.
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In comment 13792919 arcarsenal said:
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Cam Robinson is the only guy on that OL that wasn't there already.
Jalen Ramsey was already there. Malik Jackson was already there. Tashaun Gipson was already there. Telvin Smith was already there. Myles Jack was already there. Fowler was already there.
facts, lol.
nah, just coughlin magic. woulda been 6-10 without him
and yet with these wonderful players, they won 3 whole games the year before and had not won more than 5 in 7 seasons.
Here is a link with a list of the Jags players released and those signed in 2017. If you watched the game Sunday you may see some names you recognize. The list does not include Dareus who was acquired from Buffalo for a 6th rounder. Or Keelan Cole, signed as a rookie UDFA who caught 42 passes this year.
Facts. Try them for once.
Instead of trying to justify what now looks like one of the most foolish decisions ever, why not observe how a 3-13 team wins its division the following year- the first team since the merger in 1970 to do so- through a change in culture, the accurate appraisal of the roster, the astute gathering of talent and the philosophical alignment of a competent coach and front office. List of players released and signed by the Jags in 2017 - ( New Window )
Maybe there were a lot of good players in place and Doug Marrone has actually done a much better job with them than Gus Bradley did?
I guess we're not allowed to suggest that because it would take a little bit of credit away from Coughlin, and god forbid he doesn't get ALL of it....