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Mel Kiper's latest mock top 5....surprise at #1

Jints in Carolina : 1/18/2018 9:43 am
1. Josh Allen (Wyoming) Browns
2. Josh Rosen (UCLA) Giants
3. Bradley Chubb (NC State) Colts
4. Saquon Barkley (Penn St) Browns
5. Sam Darnold (USC) Broncos

He has Baker Mayfield going to the Redskins at #13

Very surprised he has Josh Allen going #1 overall.

Thoughts?
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Jay/Reale  
SLIM_ : 1/18/2018 11:52 am : link
I have similar thoughts. I don't think these guys are the prospects that someone like a Peyton, Luck, Eli are. (Yes - I say Eli - carried an Ole Miss team and had the family lineage). If the Giants are completely sold on one of these guys (I'm very scared of Rosen myself), don't overdraft a QB this year.

I get a bounty this year and build the infrastructure (line) for success. Eli can play another year or two and then hand the reins off to Davis Webb all going well. There were a lot of people high on Webb within the org. Many of them are gone now but it gives a year for others to analyze him. If the Giants have a disaster of a year or the new staff isn't as high on Webb as others, we can shoot for QB next year.

2 things to consider.
- If we have a serviceable line, I think we have some excellent talent at receiver (wide/tight) where we shouldn't need an excellent quarterback to be successful. (Looking current to 5 years out).
- I do have some concerns on the replacement to Eli. It takes a special temperament to succeed at QB in NY and also to replace a legend.
Is anyone else scared the hell out of this draft?  
Bramton1 : 1/18/2018 11:52 am : link
I feel like any of these top top 4 quarterbacks (Rosen, Darnold, Allen, Mayfield) could be really good, and any of them could be enormous disasters.
I'm in the "Allen at #1 a possibility" camp.  
Powerclean765 : 1/18/2018 11:53 am : link
Darnold is riding the USC hype machine a bit: he's a spread QB and has not demonstrated an ability to drop back and read a defense. I'm not saying he can't do it, but he hasn't been asked to yet.

I have to give USC credit, it's amazing how easy the Spread makes it on QBs. Always Shotgun - everything's a screen, fake or catch N throw. If all else fails pull it down and run. You're sitting there waiting for him to show the passing skills he'll need in the NFL and it just never happens - it's just Spread. I do credit Darnold for having great ball placement.

It's a great college O - big yards and points, guys running wide open, college D's aren't good enough to stop it - but it does little to prepare you for the NFL. Allen's completion % is low, but he's deadly accurate w/his outside throws from the pocket. Frozen ropes to the correct shoulder. He is running an NFL style offense and going through reads. (Not just catching & throwing within a gimmick offense.) What I saw watching his full games was the pocket routinely breaking down on him before he had time to go through his reads, which forces him to scramble. I'm talking jailbreak at the snap. Allen tried to do too much extending plays. That's where the low completion % comes from.

Build-wise, Allen is noticeably bigger than the other QBs.

He isn't quite as good as Big Ben coming out (IMO) but he's got a similar upside and he may be the most complete package QB.

I'm very much on the Webb bandwagon - I think he's got the goods to be an NFL starter. I'd take Barkley, Chubb or Nelson. But if the Giants are going QB - give me Allen. He's a gamble but so are the other guys.
From the Premium UCLA Message board  
Stan in LA : 1/18/2018 11:55 am : link
What's the severity of Rosen's concussions?

And how will they affect his draft status/future?

UCLA 2002

Possible. He also may have another injury that was not reported on very much.

SinnerBoy

Heard that prospective teams will be wanting to closely examine his repaired shoulder.

Possible. He also may have another injury that was not reported on very much.

What one was that? His knee?

UCLA2002

Upper body injury is all I'll say and it's not the shoulder
Somebody  
King Quis : 1/18/2018 11:55 am : link
Please explain to me why there seems to be the all or nothing mantra to pick up one of these QB’s with the number 2 pick. To me out side of Allen none of them appear to have the upside of Rothlisberger , Manning or Rivers
RE: Is anyone else scared the hell out of this draft?  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/18/2018 11:57 am : link
In comment 13795234 Bramton1 said:
Quote:
I feel like any of these top top 4 quarterbacks (Rosen, Darnold, Allen, Mayfield) could be really good, and any of them could be enormous disasters.


I think that's true of any draft really. There is a lot of talent at QB in this draft, but they need to pick the right one.

When Eli wss drafted it turned out that Rivers, Ben, and Eli were all good pros, at the time many thought Rivers wouldn't succeed due to his throwing mechanics, and there were questions about Ben's level of competition. Imo we got the best of the three, but any one would have been a good pick.

Hopefully this time it turns put the same.
RE: Somebody  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/18/2018 11:59 am : link
In comment 13795239 King Quis said:
Quote:
Please explain to me why there seems to be the all or nothing mantra to pick up one of these QB’s with the number 2 pick. To me out side of Allen none of them appear to have the upside of Rothlisberger , Manning or Rivers


Darnold has all the tools.

Many have said that Rosen is the best pure passer in years, but has health concerns.

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of the situation.
RE: RE: Kiper has done what he has always done.  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/18/2018 12:01 pm : link
In comment 13795093 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 13795082 Crispino said:


Quote:


Put a spin on it that’s a little different from others, so that he can act like he’s smarter than everyone else. If the teams don’t go the way he projects, he’ll act mad like he knew better. And then he moves on and does it again the next year, without anyone really analyzing how often he was wrong. Of course, he has no skin in the game so no one really cares. In the immortal words of one GM years ago, “Who the fuck is Mel Kiper?”.


You're absolutely right. Mel bases his draft grades on addressing team needs. If the team doesn't take the player or position he predicts then he gives them a low grade. You would think that a "draft expert" would have realized by now that it is a huge mistake to draft for need.


I could almost see this happening if they like all three of the QBs. Take Barkley and wait to see which QB is there at 4.
Browns May Take Barkley or Cobb At #1  
DeepBlueJint : 1/18/2018 12:09 pm : link
The Browns will take the best player available at #1 or perhaps trade down. They will take Allen at #4. Giants would be smart to publicly show "interest" in Allen at #2 as threat to the Brown's plans. This gives the the potential opportunity to take the BPA at #2 whether it be a QB, Barkley or Cobb. To me it is not out of the question to see the Giants move down in the draft and get another #1 plus other great picks (perhaps from the Broncos or the Jets). To me this is a target rich environment to be exploited.
The  
AcidTest : 1/18/2018 12:11 pm : link
QB to draft is Kurt Benkert.
Just speaking before the combines and workouts  
Rflairr : 1/18/2018 12:12 pm : link
I would be surprised if the Jets didn’t take Mayfield
Dream scenario  
TyreeHelmet : 1/18/2018 12:13 pm : link
But there is zero chance Danorld makes it to 5.
I can certainly see why scouts would fall in love with  
Section331 : 1/18/2018 12:18 pm : link
Allen. The arm is special. The ball just explodes out of his hand, but you cannot simply overlook his 56% completion. It is going to take some work to refine his mechanics so that he is more accurate.

For comparison, Carson Wentz was a 64% passer at NDSU, and before you say “but it was FCS!”, NDSU would compete in the Mountain West.
RE: RE: I'm ready and willing to give Josh Allen a break on the completion %  
allstarjim : 1/18/2018 12:20 pm : link
In comment 13795160 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13795111 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Look, he played 6 of his 11 games in an outdoor stadium in WYOMING. Frigid, windy, WYOMING. Throw a couple of his other road games in Colorado Springs (@ Air Force) in November, two road games in Boise, Idaho (@ Boise State and in his bowl game, in late October and late December, respectively), that is a distinct weather disadvantage that other quarterbacks simply do not have to endure.

I think most of us would agree that throwing AND catching a football in Los Angeles, CA in November is a lot easier than throwing and catching a football in Cheyenne, WY in November.

To top it off, the offensive line he was playing with, the receivers he was playing with, both well below the talent level of most of his opponents. Watch some Allen tape, he is often under duress immediately almost as bad as Darnold vs Ohio State.

Finally, if you take a closer look at his 2017 game log, his two worst games were against Boise State and Oregon. Both big time programs, both Wyoming is completely out-gunned and out-matched at likely every position EXCEPT quarterback. If I throw those games out, and I analyze the numbers of the other games, these are the numbers:

59.8% pass completion. And you still have to look at the whole picture, level of competition, overmatched, nearly every week is a bad weather game.

None of this is to ignore Allen as a risky prospect, he is. But I think the criticism of the completion percentage in a bubble has to be looked at in context.

Here's the good with Allen: He clearly can make every throw, has probably the best arm in the class, he appears to throw an accurate ball, is a physical prototype, and can really move. I am very interested in how he'll do at the Senior Bowl, and I can guarantee that a lot of NFL teams are as well. He's a guy I would bet on because I see the talent. At #1 overall or #2? Not over Darnold. But over the other guys? Maybe, yeah.

If you look at him in terms of a possibility for the Giants, I think it's an ideal situation. You still have Eli, and you have Webb, who makes it easier to take a chance on a talent like Allen. I agree with others who say his ceiling is enormous...Aaron Rodgers-type ceiling.



Allen competed 9 passes against Hawaii, possibly the worst division 1 team


See, this is why you really need to examine the "tape" to see what happened. This is that game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz3VtxCSMs4

There were SIX catchable passes in that game that were not caught. He could've easily been 15-19 passing in that game.

Out of the 6 catchable passes, 2 were great passes that went right through the receiver's hands, 2 were great passes that hit them right in the chest and they were dropped, and 2 were not really great throws but were catchable. So he should've AT LEAST been 13-19 passing in that game...68.4%, instead, he was at 47.3% passing.

Out of the incompletions that were not catchable (all 4 of them), one was tipped at the line, a great play by the DE, one was a hail mary at the end of the half (flicked his wrist and the ball went 65 yards in the air), one he sailed out of bounds, possibly on purpose as the coverage was good, and one was the worst throw he made that day... a pass late and outside that should've resulted in a pick six, that the corner dropped.

But if you look at the deep hitches on the far-sideline, the hail mary he threw, the end of the game roll out for the TD, those are the throws that shows me he can play in the NFL.

Point is, you can't make a conclusion just on the stats. 9-19 looks bad, it does. But he wasn't a 9-19 QB in that game, he was much better than that.
RE: I'm ready and willing to give Josh Allen a break on the completion %  
Section331 : 1/18/2018 12:29 pm : link
In comment 13795111 allstarjim said:
Quote:
Look, he played 6 of his 11 games in an outdoor stadium in WYOMING. Frigid, windy, WYOMING. Throw a couple of his other road games in Colorado Springs (@ Air Force) in November, two road games in Boise, Idaho (@ Boise State and in his bowl game, in late October and late December, respectively), that is a distinct weather disadvantage that other quarterbacks simply do not have to endure.

I think most of us would agree that throwing AND catching a football in Los Angeles, CA in November is a lot easier than throwing and catching a football in Cheyenne, WY in November.

To top it off, the offensive line he was playing with, the receivers he was playing with, both well below the talent level of most of his opponents. Watch some Allen tape, he is often under duress immediately almost as bad as Darnold vs Ohio State.

Finally, if you take a closer look at his 2017 game log, his two worst games were against Boise State and Oregon. Both big time programs, both Wyoming is completely out-gunned and out-matched at likely every position EXCEPT quarterback. If I throw those games out, and I analyze the numbers of the other games, these are the numbers:


Carson Wentz played his college games out doors in N Dakota. 64% completion to 56%. And if you’re looking at game logs, don’t forget Allen’s performance against the 133rd ranked defense of Hawaii - 9 of 19 for 94 yards. Granted, it was in Wyoming, but it was in September, so I doubt weather was a factor (HI’s QB was 29-40 for 280 yards against a much better WY defense).

He is a special talent, but he is also a project. While I would argue that he’s a better bet than Webb, there is still a bust factor.
RE: RE: I'm ready and willing to give Josh Allen a break on the completion %  
allstarjim : 1/18/2018 12:31 pm : link
In comment 13795302 Section331 said:
Quote:
In comment 13795111 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Look, he played 6 of his 11 games in an outdoor stadium in WYOMING. Frigid, windy, WYOMING. Throw a couple of his other road games in Colorado Springs (@ Air Force) in November, two road games in Boise, Idaho (@ Boise State and in his bowl game, in late October and late December, respectively), that is a distinct weather disadvantage that other quarterbacks simply do not have to endure.

I think most of us would agree that throwing AND catching a football in Los Angeles, CA in November is a lot easier than throwing and catching a football in Cheyenne, WY in November.

To top it off, the offensive line he was playing with, the receivers he was playing with, both well below the talent level of most of his opponents. Watch some Allen tape, he is often under duress immediately almost as bad as Darnold vs Ohio State.

Finally, if you take a closer look at his 2017 game log, his two worst games were against Boise State and Oregon. Both big time programs, both Wyoming is completely out-gunned and out-matched at likely every position EXCEPT quarterback. If I throw those games out, and I analyze the numbers of the other games, these are the numbers:




Carson Wentz played his college games out doors in N Dakota. 64% completion to 56%. And if you’re looking at game logs, don’t forget Allen’s performance against the 133rd ranked defense of Hawaii - 9 of 19 for 94 yards. Granted, it was in Wyoming, but it was in September, so I doubt weather was a factor (HI’s QB was 29-40 for 280 yards against a much better WY defense).

He is a special talent, but he is also a project. While I would argue that he’s a better bet than Webb, there is still a bust factor.


Please see my above post regarding the HI game. I'm also not one that puts Allen on the level of Wentz as a prospect. I do think Allen has more risk than Wentz as I thought Wentz was pretty pro-ready and he had everything. But you also have to understand that Wentz had a much better team around him than Allen. Much better, not even close.
Also,  
allstarjim : 1/18/2018 12:40 pm : link
the weather in Cheyenne against HI was mid-40's with wind between 8-13 mph, up to 21 mph gusts, plus some rain.

Josh Rosen played that day in Stanford, CA. It was 65 degrees and sunny. ;)
RE: RE: RE: I'm ready and willing to give Josh Allen a break on the completion %  
ajr2456 : 1/18/2018 12:41 pm : link
In comment 13795285 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 13795160 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13795111 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Look, he played 6 of his 11 games in an outdoor stadium in WYOMING. Frigid, windy, WYOMING. Throw a couple of his other road games in Colorado Springs (@ Air Force) in November, two road games in Boise, Idaho (@ Boise State and in his bowl game, in late October and late December, respectively), that is a distinct weather disadvantage that other quarterbacks simply do not have to endure.

I think most of us would agree that throwing AND catching a football in Los Angeles, CA in November is a lot easier than throwing and catching a football in Cheyenne, WY in November.

To top it off, the offensive line he was playing with, the receivers he was playing with, both well below the talent level of most of his opponents. Watch some Allen tape, he is often under duress immediately almost as bad as Darnold vs Ohio State.

Finally, if you take a closer look at his 2017 game log, his two worst games were against Boise State and Oregon. Both big time programs, both Wyoming is completely out-gunned and out-matched at likely every position EXCEPT quarterback. If I throw those games out, and I analyze the numbers of the other games, these are the numbers:

59.8% pass completion. And you still have to look at the whole picture, level of competition, overmatched, nearly every week is a bad weather game.

None of this is to ignore Allen as a risky prospect, he is. But I think the criticism of the completion percentage in a bubble has to be looked at in context.

Here's the good with Allen: He clearly can make every throw, has probably the best arm in the class, he appears to throw an accurate ball, is a physical prototype, and can really move. I am very interested in how he'll do at the Senior Bowl, and I can guarantee that a lot of NFL teams are as well. He's a guy I would bet on because I see the talent. At #1 overall or #2? Not over Darnold. But over the other guys? Maybe, yeah.

If you look at him in terms of a possibility for the Giants, I think it's an ideal situation. You still have Eli, and you have Webb, who makes it easier to take a chance on a talent like Allen. I agree with others who say his ceiling is enormous...Aaron Rodgers-type ceiling.



Allen competed 9 passes against Hawaii, possibly the worst division 1 team



See, this is why you really need to examine the "tape" to see what happened. This is that game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz3VtxCSMs4

There were SIX catchable passes in that game that were not caught. He could've easily been 15-19 passing in that game.

Out of the 6 catchable passes, 2 were great passes that went right through the receiver's hands, 2 were great passes that hit them right in the chest and they were dropped, and 2 were not really great throws but were catchable. So he should've AT LEAST been 13-19 passing in that game...68.4%, instead, he was at 47.3% passing.

Out of the incompletions that were not catchable (all 4 of them), one was tipped at the line, a great play by the DE, one was a hail mary at the end of the half (flicked his wrist and the ball went 65 yards in the air), one he sailed out of bounds, possibly on purpose as the coverage was good, and one was the worst throw he made that day... a pass late and outside that should've resulted in a pick six, that the corner dropped.

But if you look at the deep hitches on the far-sideline, the hail mary he threw, the end of the game roll out for the TD, those are the throws that shows me he can play in the NFL.

Point is, you can't make a conclusion just on the stats. 9-19 looks bad, it does. But he wasn't a 9-19 QB in that game, he was much better than that.


And if we counted drops Jacksons competiton % would be in the 70%s. Allen gets excuses made for him, while other QBs don't. It's a weird dynamic
RE: Giants & Colts  
81_Great_Dane : 1/18/2018 12:43 pm : link
In comment 13795028 CromartiesKid21 said:
Quote:
would be receiving some substantial offers for their picks with Rosen & Darnold falling
Another likely scenario: Giants draft Darnold, but continue to receive substantial offers. If a player they love is still on the board when one of those teams is on the clock, I could see them doing something like the opposite of the Eli trade: swap one QB prospect for a bunch of picks and still get a QB.
Mayfield to foreskins  
Giant John : 1/18/2018 12:46 pm : link
Is my worst nightmare. They will be kicking our butts for years.
I don't know  
Modus Operandi : 1/18/2018 12:47 pm : link
Who we end up taking, but I hope that draft unfolds the way Piper suggests. It won't, but I hope it does.
RE: Mayfield to foreskins  
Brown Recluse : 1/18/2018 12:51 pm : link
In comment 13795330 Giant John said:
Quote:
Is my worst nightmare. They will be kicking our butts for years.


You mean like they did all those years after they drafted RG3?

I know...that RG3 is a nightmare. Can't wait till he retires.
RE: RE: Giants & Colts  
JonC : 1/18/2018 12:56 pm : link
In comment 13795329 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
In comment 13795028 CromartiesKid21 said:


Quote:


would be receiving some substantial offers for their picks with Rosen & Darnold falling

Another likely scenario: Giants draft Darnold, but continue to receive substantial offers. If a player they love is still on the board when one of those teams is on the clock, I could see them doing something like the opposite of the Eli trade: swap one QB prospect for a bunch of picks and still get a QB.


I think Darnold will be their #1 prospect, but your point is well made.
someone posted a while back  
Dr. D : 1/18/2018 1:08 pm : link
I think it was a pretty successful GM who once said something to the effect that he would rather take a QB from a non elite program that elevated a team that lacked talent vs. one that was surrounded by talent. Allen seems to fit that description.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm ready and willing to give Josh Allen a break on the completion %  
allstarjim : 1/18/2018 1:12 pm : link
In comment 13795326 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 13795285 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 13795160 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 13795111 allstarjim said:


Quote:


Look, he played 6 of his 11 games in an outdoor stadium in WYOMING. Frigid, windy, WYOMING. Throw a couple of his other road games in Colorado Springs (@ Air Force) in November, two road games in Boise, Idaho (@ Boise State and in his bowl game, in late October and late December, respectively), that is a distinct weather disadvantage that other quarterbacks simply do not have to endure.

I think most of us would agree that throwing AND catching a football in Los Angeles, CA in November is a lot easier than throwing and catching a football in Cheyenne, WY in November.

To top it off, the offensive line he was playing with, the receivers he was playing with, both well below the talent level of most of his opponents. Watch some Allen tape, he is often under duress immediately almost as bad as Darnold vs Ohio State.

Finally, if you take a closer look at his 2017 game log, his two worst games were against Boise State and Oregon. Both big time programs, both Wyoming is completely out-gunned and out-matched at likely every position EXCEPT quarterback. If I throw those games out, and I analyze the numbers of the other games, these are the numbers:

59.8% pass completion. And you still have to look at the whole picture, level of competition, overmatched, nearly every week is a bad weather game.

None of this is to ignore Allen as a risky prospect, he is. But I think the criticism of the completion percentage in a bubble has to be looked at in context.

Here's the good with Allen: He clearly can make every throw, has probably the best arm in the class, he appears to throw an accurate ball, is a physical prototype, and can really move. I am very interested in how he'll do at the Senior Bowl, and I can guarantee that a lot of NFL teams are as well. He's a guy I would bet on because I see the talent. At #1 overall or #2? Not over Darnold. But over the other guys? Maybe, yeah.

If you look at him in terms of a possibility for the Giants, I think it's an ideal situation. You still have Eli, and you have Webb, who makes it easier to take a chance on a talent like Allen. I agree with others who say his ceiling is enormous...Aaron Rodgers-type ceiling.



Allen competed 9 passes against Hawaii, possibly the worst division 1 team



See, this is why you really need to examine the "tape" to see what happened. This is that game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz3VtxCSMs4

There were SIX catchable passes in that game that were not caught. He could've easily been 15-19 passing in that game.

Out of the 6 catchable passes, 2 were great passes that went right through the receiver's hands, 2 were great passes that hit them right in the chest and they were dropped, and 2 were not really great throws but were catchable. So he should've AT LEAST been 13-19 passing in that game...68.4%, instead, he was at 47.3% passing.

Out of the incompletions that were not catchable (all 4 of them), one was tipped at the line, a great play by the DE, one was a hail mary at the end of the half (flicked his wrist and the ball went 65 yards in the air), one he sailed out of bounds, possibly on purpose as the coverage was good, and one was the worst throw he made that day... a pass late and outside that should've resulted in a pick six, that the corner dropped.

But if you look at the deep hitches on the far-sideline, the hail mary he threw, the end of the game roll out for the TD, those are the throws that shows me he can play in the NFL.

Point is, you can't make a conclusion just on the stats. 9-19 looks bad, it does. But he wasn't a 9-19 QB in that game, he was much better than that.



And if we counted drops Jacksons competiton % would be in the 70%s. Allen gets excuses made for him, while other QBs don't. It's a weird dynamic


Perhaps. I promise you Allen has had a lot more drops as a percentage of his throws than Jackson.

I'm not saying Allen is this elite, can't miss prospect. I'm saying there are reasons his numbers aren't there with the other top QBs that are separate from his performance and ability.
Not too sure about that  
ajr2456 : 1/18/2018 1:21 pm : link
I watched Lousivlle WRs drop dimes that would have been TDS on back to back plays vs Florida State
RE: Video comparing Lamar Jackson v. Josh Allen  
Tom in NY : 1/18/2018 1:34 pm : link
In comment 13795157 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Jackson is more poised and polished a prospect than Allen is. Link - ( New Window )


Go check out Jackson's last 2 bowl games (vs. LSU and Miss St.) and let me know if you still want him as your QB.

He's a good college QB, potentially a developmental NFL QB, but no way I'd take that guy in either the 1st or 2nd rounds.
I've been picking Allen to go 1 or 2 for months.  
DonQuixote : 1/18/2018 1:37 pm : link
He is a freak of nature. I am sure there is a downside, and I am no expert, but I've watched the draft enough years to know a physical specimen QB like that is going to go right up there at the top.
There has been  
Beer Man : 1/18/2018 1:42 pm : link
a few draft boards / talking heads predicting Allen at #1 to the Browns.
RE: RE: Video comparing Lamar Jackson v. Josh Allen  
Modus Operandi : 1/18/2018 1:47 pm : link
In comment 13795412 Tom in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 13795157 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Jackson is more poised and polished a prospect than Allen is. Link - ( New Window )



Go check out Jackson's last 2 bowl games (vs. LSU and Miss St.) and let me know if you still want him as your QB.

He's a good college QB, potentially a developmental NFL QB, but no way I'd take that guy in either the 1st or 2nd rounds.


Totally agree.
RE: After the Combine  
section125 : 1/18/2018 2:04 pm : link
In comment 13795124 Miamijints said:
Quote:
everyone will want Jackson.


Ah, no they won't. Well maybe after Darnold, Rosen, Allen and Mayfield are gone.
Pretty good discussion on Allen...  
Modus Operandi : 1/18/2018 2:09 pm : link
Allstarjim has made some compelling arguements. I'm not a fan, and think Allen will bust, but good posts.
One sportswriter predicts Darnold  
NikkiMac : 1/18/2018 2:27 pm : link
To get fat like Sonny Jorgensen says he’s got the same type body

I’ve heard it all LOL
Great Mike Leach quote on accuracy  
AcesUp : 1/18/2018 2:29 pm : link
Quote:
“Then they say ‘Well all he has to do is work on his accuracy. Well ok. He won’t be accurate in high school. Then some college will take him, and then he won’t be accurate there, and then the NFL says ‘all he has to do is work on his accuracy,’ and they’ll take him there, and he won’t be accurate there and then he’ll be out of the league.”

“The thing that’s amazing to me, is that after all of high school he’s not accurate, and now all of a sudden you’re special and you’re going to make him accurate? And then after college he’s not accurate, and you’re special and you’re going to make him accurate? I just haven’t seen that happen. I’ve seen guys improve, but they don’t all of a sudden become accurate.”


If you look at the success rate of college QBs with low completion %, they back that quote up. I think you are more likely to teach a short Baker Mayfield how to find throwing lanes than the prototypical Josh Allen how to be accurate in NFL windows. It's a trap coaches and talent evaluators fall into all of the time.
Some great points  
Marty866b : 1/18/2018 3:33 pm : link
By allstarjim. I think Allen is going to blow the doors open at the combine and if I had to bet on it I would say he is our guy.
As for the posters here who say USC runs the spread offense. Not really. Darnold rarely runs the ball. he ran for a whopping 82 years on the season. The spread offense quarterbacks gain that in one game.
leadership and work ethic counts a lot at QB  
xtian : 1/18/2018 3:37 pm : link
guys have to want to play with/for him. also, this is amplified in NY/NJ area.

from what i have read, questionable if rosen does that regardless of the pretty ball. i want allen or darnold for the giants, or barkley. otherwise, trade down [a few times] and take chubb or best OT so we have extra 2 and/or 3s.

we will know much more after all the evals.
I find it interesting that the some of the same criticisms  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/18/2018 3:51 pm : link
Kiper & McShay applied to Kizer last year they could apply to Allen, but have simply chosen to ignore or excuse them.
RE: A lot of people think Allen has the highest ceiling  
Rflairr : 1/18/2018 3:54 pm : link
In comment 13795174 David B. said:
Quote:
But his floor is a lot lower than Darnold's or Rosen's.




It’s hard to argue the arm talent Allen has. I mean go look at the vids. That dude has Jeff George type arm talent. Not sure what he willl be but he looks to have a stronger arm than any one in the league right now
RE: One sportswriter predicts Darnold  
BillKo : 1/18/2018 4:03 pm : link
In comment 13795501 NikkiMac said:
Quote:
To get fat like Sonny Jorgensen says he’s got the same type body

I’ve heard it all LOL


Funny, but I'll tell ya, when I look at him he doesn't have a QB body - or so it appears.

Almost looks like he should be a wrestler.
I've been all in on hoping we get Allen for awhile  
You'reMyBoyBlue!! : 1/18/2018 4:52 pm : link
Simply in terms of talent, he's legitimately, imo, in that rarified Elway tier of elite talents. He's that gifted physically.

But obviously being a QB in the NFL is a lot more than physical ability. The accuracy issues (while I think overblown after watching most of his games) are still a legitimate concern for any team considering him, and, maybe most importantly, it's difficult to project his ability to read NFL defenses and make adjustments presnap (but that issue is true of pretty much every collegiate QB)

Daniel Jeremiah was on the Rich Eisen show recently and said Allen has more upside than Wentz (which blew Eisens mind) but is more raw. I think that's pretty fair and accurate. I'm more than willing to gamble (even with the number 2 pick) on that type of greatness, especially after watching most of his full game clips online (not just highlights) and not really seeing the huge accuracy concerns ( I think he can definitely clean stuff up tho) that most people point to when criticizing him.
FWIW  
ajr2456 : 1/18/2018 5:19 pm : link
Allen had the lowest drop % of the senior QBs
Drop rate - ( New Window )
I’ve enjoyed watching Rosen play QB...  
bw in dc : 1/18/2018 5:43 pm : link
for UCLA these last three years. A lot of his game screams NFL QB savant...the Peyton Manning comparisons are legit. And Rosen has a better arm.

However, I am praying to the football gods that Darnold is available at the 2 slot. And then we take him. The combination of poise, durable body, underrated arm, and football junkie make him the better pick than Rosen. It’s worth the risk that Rosen will break down more, or have greater outside interests other than football, than Sam. So take the safer, surer result...

If Darnold is taken, and Rosen is there at #2, my other prayer to the football gods is that we trade out of that spot for someone who really wants Risen, and we move down to eventually draft the Freak - Josh Allen. And maybe he gets more tutoring time under a Manning/veteran type...
RE: Allen feels to me more like a traditional Reese pick  
Vanzetti : 1/18/2018 5:43 pm : link
In comment 13795075 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
All upside and physical talent, but a little too raw. I don't want the JPP of quarterbacks.


Allen is kind of the JPP of quarterbacks
Wouldn' t be shocked if  
OC2.0 : 1/18/2018 5:47 pm : link
We don't take a QB at 2. Later in the rd. with a trade back maybe.
I just watched Allen's highlights tape  
David B. : 1/18/2018 8:30 pm : link
Yes, he looks good. I'm not a pro scout, but to me he doesn't look as good as either Darnold or Rosen.

Also, he seems to take off and run too much (not to extend the play but to get yards), and to me, he almost looks TOO tall to be doing that. He'll get killed at the next level.

I'm sure he's a good prospect, but if we're talking about "a higher ceiling" than the other two, I personally don't see that. And his floor is lower.
RE: The Jets are grabbing a QB  
djm : 1/18/2018 9:04 pm : link
In comment 13795058 spike said:
Quote:
.
Mayfield is gonna be a Jet


I'd be quite ok with that. Jets games would be interesting.
On Allen  
djm : 1/18/2018 9:31 pm : link
I feel like if you have to make excuses for a collegiate qb not having the stats, that player isn't elite. Allen is a prospect but not an elite prospect in my view.

Eli Manning had garbage around him back at ole miss. He still produced. Big Ben was a talented freaky athlete who played for a small school. He put up monster numbers.

Josh Allen could split the atom with 80 yard bombs at the combine for all I care. He still didn't put up wow numbers in college. Can't hide that.
You've got three qbs ahead of Allen  
djm : 1/18/2018 9:33 pm : link
Probably 4. Every one of the four out produced Allen by a wide margin and all had tougher competition.
Rosen vs. Darnold according to Raanan  
jeff57 : 1/19/2018 8:58 am : link
Quote:
It’s early, but in my estimation Darnold seems to be the most Giants-like quarterback of the bunch. He will check all the boxes with his off-the-field attitude and work ethic. There have been nothing but raves about his ability to command a huddle and his standing in the locker room. His teammates love him, according to his former left tackle Chad Wheeler.

Link - ( New Window )
Kiper is always wrong  
Jersey55 : 1/19/2018 11:02 am : link
every year at this time..
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