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QB vs. RB @ #2 - a historical view...

Dan in the Springs : 1/18/2018 7:23 pm
There has been a lot of calls for selecting a franchise QB with the #2 overall pick this year. Many have said selecting a QB high is the best way to ensure you have the QB positioned locked down for the next 10 years or so.

So, I took all the QB's selected in the top 10 between 1998 and 2007 to see the probability that a top 10 selection at QB would last 10 years. I picked this period because it gives us a view of at least 10 years in their career. No point evaluating recent draft picks from a historical perspective because their history hasn't been written yet.

Here's the QBs:
1998 - Peyton Manning, Ryan Leaf
1999 - Tim Couch, Donovan McNabb, Akili Smith
2000 - none selected
2001 - Michael Vick
2002 - David Carr, Joey Harrington
2003 - Carson Palmer, Byron Leftwich
2004 - Eli Manning, Philip Rivers
2005 - Alex Smith
2006 - Vince Young, Matt Leinart
2007 - Jamarcus Russell

So of that list, Peyton Manning, Donovan McNabb, Eli Manning and Philip Rivers were the only ones who made it ten years as a starter for the team that drafted them. Michael Vick might have made it were it not for the dog fighting stuff. That's four 10 year starters among 16 players drafted, or 25% of the picks who made it 10 years. Not a great percentage.

Why is everyone so certain that picking a QB @2 will deliver a ten year QB solution when history tells us this is not likely to be the case? Also, look at the bust rate. 7 of the 16 (~44%) picked had absolutely no success in the NFL.

What about RB?

1998 - Curtis Enis, Fred Taylor
1999 - Edgerrin James, Ricky Williams
2000 - Jamal Lewis, Thomas Jones
2001 - LaDainian Tomlinson
2002 - None selected
2003 - None selected
2004 - None selected
2005 - Ronnie Brown, Cedric Benson, Cadillac Williams
2006 - Reggie Bush
2007 - Adrian Peterson

What is the bust rate among top RB's picked? Only one (Enis) never reached 1000 yds rushing in any season. You can probably add Williams in as a bust as well, given he only reached 1000 yds once.

True, the careers are shorter and certainly the peaks are shorter if you go HB over QB in the top ten, but the likelihood of selecting an impact player is much greater selecting RB than QB.

Bottom line: select a QB in the top ten and caveat emptor, while selecting a RB in the top ten likely means getting a difference maker on the field for several seasons.
It will all depend on the scouting  
adamg : 1/18/2018 7:27 pm : link
If there is uncertainty of whether these guys can be franchise QBs I think they have to go Barkley or trade down.
I totally understand wanting to take a QB  
robbieballs2003 : 1/18/2018 7:39 pm : link
But the number one thing that cannot happen to this team is missing on this pick regardless of position.
Why the top 10 ?  
Archer : 1/18/2018 7:58 pm : link
What is the analysis if you look at the top 2 picks ?
Why is the analysis for the top 10 ?

The Giants are picking second
Seems like no brainer to me .  
TMS : 1/18/2018 8:01 pm : link
You have to take Barkley. A game changer at RB for 4/5 years or longer. Franchise RBs are few and far betweeen. Think this guy is the real deal. MO
You're overlooking the fact that the NFL is a QB league  
JohnB : 1/18/2018 8:03 pm : link
Without a top notch QB, it is very hard to go deep in the playoffs. A team can go far with a so-so RB but most are going nowhere with a so-so QB.

Barkley is the best player in the draft but he isn't the most important player in the draft, one of the QB (or maybe 2) are more important to a team's success.
RE: You're overlooking the fact that the NFL is a QB league  
robbieballs2003 : 1/18/2018 8:06 pm : link
In comment 13795967 JohnB said:
Quote:
Without a top notch QB, it is very hard to go deep in the playoffs. A team can go far with a so-so RB but most are going nowhere with a so-so QB.

Barkley is the best player in the draft but he isn't the most important player in the draft, one of the QB (or maybe 2) are more important to a team's success.


Haha.

-Blake Bortles
-Case Keenum
-Nick Foles
Also  
Archer : 1/18/2018 8:07 pm : link
Why is it significant that thd QB plays for the same team ?
Why is 1000 yards significant?

I think that question is what is the probability of success in drafting a QB or RB second in the draft?

Success is hard to define but let’s say its player that you can win a super bowl with at his position

Dan I understand your point  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/18/2018 8:21 pm : link
but if you look at Superbowl winning teams -- the overwhelming majority of them are led by great QBs.

Correspondingly there are more great RBs that haven't made it to the game -- take your lists for example -- more QBs on those two lists made it to the Superbowl then RBs.

There is no doubt that a team with a great QB has a better chance of being in the Superbowl than a team featuring a great running back.

Now I'm not saying there isn't appeal for Barkley - but your argument doesn't wash using your own examples in the context of successful football
Bortles was the #3 pick  
GeorgeAdams33 : 1/18/2018 8:36 pm : link
Tom Brady on the other hand.......
Maybe list the top performing QBs and RBs and the rounds  
DonQuixote : 1/18/2018 8:41 pm : link
they were taken,
Dan, you make some interesting points.  
Gregorio : 1/18/2018 9:18 pm : link
I want to ask though; What about the success rate of those running backs, compared to the success rate of the QB’s? Going by the criteria in the OP, having 10 years as a starter, only 1 of 12 RBs started for over 10 years (L Tomlinson). That comes to an 8% success rate compared to 25% of the QBs who started 10 years.

The other factor is the overall value of the position. QB is involved with every offensive decision, pass and run play, and is a factor on almost every scoring play. Even the best featured RB in today’s league handles the ball a much lower % of plays.
Another view of historical succcess  
Gregorio : 1/18/2018 9:32 pm : link
is the ArrowheadPride success study. It defines success as having started for at least half of an NFL career. Going by this criteria, QB has a slightly higher probability of success than RB.


1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)
2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB(25%)
3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)


https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2015/2/20/8072877/what-the-statistics-tell-us-about-the-draft-by-round
Faulty analysis  
Jerry K : 1/18/2018 9:48 pm : link
Your using a different unit of analysis to compare QBs to RBs. For QBs you count the number of years as starters but for RBs you look at whether or not they had a thousand yard season. You've selected a much higher standard of success for QBs.
You're  
Jerry K : 1/18/2018 10:00 pm : link
not your.
RE: RE: You're overlooking the fact that the NFL is a QB league  
lax counsel : 1/18/2018 10:42 pm : link
In comment 13795968 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 13795967 JohnB said:


Quote:


Without a top notch QB, it is very hard to go deep in the playoffs. A team can go far with a so-so RB but most are going nowhere with a so-so QB.

Barkley is the best player in the draft but he isn't the most important player in the draft, one of the QB (or maybe 2) are more important to a team's success.



Haha.

-Blake Bortles
-Case Keenum
-Nick Foles


So let's take the very rare exception as the general rule. And who were the 4 qbs in the championship last year, Brady, Ben, Rodgers, Ryan. Most years you don't have a shot without a top qb. This year is an anomaly.
RE: RE: You're overlooking the fact that the NFL is a QB league  
Larry in Pencilvania : 1/18/2018 11:37 pm : link
In comment 13795968 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 13795967 JohnB said:


Quote:


Without a top notch QB, it is very hard to go deep in the playoffs. A team can go far with a so-so RB but most are going nowhere with a so-so QB.

Barkley is the best player in the draft but he isn't the most important player in the draft, one of the QB (or maybe 2) are more important to a team's success.



Haha.

-Blake Bortles
-Case Keenum
-Nick Foles


Tom Brady....Muah Ha Ha
The only argument I can make about not taking a RB at 2  
Breeze_94 : 1/19/2018 12:47 am : link
Is look at how many Super Bowls Adrian Peterson, Ladanian Tomlinson or Barry Sanders have won. Even Payton only won one, and that was because he was on the 1985 bears aka the greatest Defense of all time.

That being said, I like Saquon at #2 because I think he is BPA and he elevated the Giants the most. There is no Lawrence Taylor or Khalil Mack type of edge, no Franchise Left Tackle and I like Darnold but think he goes to CLE.

Not sold on 56% comp Josh Allen or concussion and Injury prone and immobile Josh Rosen
This analysis  
hassan : 1/19/2018 7:59 am : link
Also fails to show that many backs as productive as the set mentioned in first round are taken all over the draft. Many of the current top backs were 2nd-4th round picks.

While the bust rate is high for qbs the prospects of finding one later in draft is even more difficult. Sure there are a few like Wilson, Brady Etc but much harder.

And just because a player has a 1,000 yard season hardly makes that good value for a top 10 pick.
RE: I totally understand wanting to take a QB  
Victor in CT : 1/19/2018 8:18 am : link
In comment 13795940 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
But the number one thing that cannot happen to this team is missing on this pick regardless of position.


BINGO! BPA. Don't reach based on need. If they determine that one of the QBs is truky worthy of that pick, fine. If not, take whoever is.
Guys  
hassan : 1/19/2018 9:39 am : link
There is no guarantee for any pick. So I don’t get the Giants must take a ‘sure thing’. Who is more of a sure thing in this draft?

It is a sure thing a top prospect at qb will go high and it’s rare NYG pick this high. The other sure thing is rbs are available later that can replicate the production of a #2 overall pick at back.

So BPA analysis has to consider the relative worth of the position and the typical cost of acquiring.

This is a qb rich draft so unless Giants hate the qbs after scouting I’m betting they go this way.



A lot will depend on what  
TMS : 1/19/2018 9:46 am : link
Shurmur and DG think of who we have on board now. How much does ELI have left and how developal is Webb with this new "QB Whisperer" and a new offensive scheme.
Not having a franchise QB  
Jay on the Island : 1/19/2018 10:33 am : link
will force the Giants to not only have a great RB but a great defense as well if they want to make the playoffs. Look at the Vikings and Jags. Great defenses and great RB's but the problem with this strategy is that it is not sustainable. Unless Belichick comes aboard and the Giants have the best draft in their history on the defensive side of the ball then their defense will likely be in the 15-25 range. If they take Barkley and he performs as hoped this is likely a 7-9 team. Great they are improved but now as Gettleman put it they are in "QB hell" as they aren't bad enough to be in range to get a top QB in the draft. If they want one they will have to trade at least an additional 1st round pick plus a couple of day two picks to move up to get one. That is assuming that team picking high doesn't need a QB because if they do they won't trade it.

I think those that want Barkley, Chubb, Nelson, etc will have to live with the realization that the Giants are likely to go QB in the first round.
Jay  
hassan : 1/19/2018 11:17 am : link
Nailed it. Qb hell is a much harder problem to solve than RB hell. It more often than not requires investing a top pick (and maybe two should your web go bust-see Tennessee with Locker and Mariota). But just because there is a bust factor doesn’t change the fact you have to take your shot at one if available.

It’s more about value than performance.  
Section331 : 1/19/2018 11:27 am : link
If you look at the list of QB’s, the ones who were successful had an immediate impact on their teams’ won-loss records. You can’t say that about the RB’s.

If the Giants feel they need a QB, and if they feel any of the QB’s available are truly franchise QB’s, then you take them. We hope that they will not be drafting this high for a while, so they need to get the QB situation settled.

If they think they have the QB situation figured out with Eli and Webb, and/or none of the QB’s available are worthy, than they should trade down. Even a very good RB is rarely worth the extra picks they can grab.
In the Giants position with Eli  
AnnapolisMike : 1/19/2018 11:33 am : link
You take a QB if you believe he is the guy. Otherwise BPA...if that guy is a RB than fine, but I think RB at 2 is a bad value. RB's are a dime a dozen.

A RB like Barkley will make  
TMS : 1/19/2018 3:17 pm : link
everybody better instantly. He is take to the house any time he gets the ball and a huge problem catching passes long and short out of the backfield. When is the last time we had that type of weapon to go with our receivers. Never as I recall.
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