I see a lot of posters starting threads about the merits of taking a QB vs. a RB, or vice versa lately. Lots of threads trying to figure out which has bigger bust potential, etc... Are you trying to convince others of the right way to go, or are you trying to convince yourself it's the right thing because you are unsure?
The truth is, the Giants are in a great position no matter how they go. I'm excited for this offseason, because in free agency and the draft we should get a good indicator of what mold they want to build the team in.
If they take a QB, then great, it will be because they have total conviction that he's worth the 2nd pick.
Hopefully they find the guy that will be Eli's successor. If they don't then they weren't sold on any of these guys and we have to respect that.
If they take a RB or some other position, then that's great too because it means they feel they have the pieces to win now and turn it around quickly.
They are going to take the best player on their board. And with the number two pick overall, you almost have to do that. The pick absolutely cannot be forced.
Honestly, you can make the case for a lot of things here, including a trade down, but that doesn't mean that any one solution is right and the other is wrong. This offseason will tell us a lot about what type of football team they are building.
Get the best player here.
Who says it's a 2 year rebuild? That's the type of thing I'm talking about. You're forcing a QB pick based on some hypothetical rebuild time period.
Three of the four teams in the Championship game were not in the playoffs last year, and finished .500 or worse (8-8, 7-9, 3-13).
This team has talent on it. McAdoo was horrible. A new coach and philosophy might be better at showcasing that talent, especially on offense.
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at that point Eli will be 39. we dont have the ammo to rebuild in one offseason. in two years we will be forced to move on from Eli and now move up in the draft to get a QB... we should just grab one now at #2 and be done with it.. If this was a one year rebuild i would think different but we are not contending for atleast two seasons.. By then Eli will be too old to build around.
Who says it's a 2 year rebuild? That's the type of thing I'm talking about. You're forcing a QB pick based on some hypothetical rebuild time period.
Three of the four teams in the Championship game were not in the playoffs last year, and finished .500 or worse (8-8, 7-9, 3-13).
This team has talent on it. McAdoo was horrible. A new coach and philosophy might be better at showcasing that talent, especially on offense.
Thats my thinking. I dont see anyway how this team contends next season.. thats just my .02.. I know I shouldnt look ahead 2 years or so. I just hate to trade picks in a couple seasons to move up... But, again, im not getting paid to do this..LOL... im glad im just a fan.
Just because there may not be the same conviction that those guys turn into a 2-time Superbowl MVP doesn't mean you are "forcing it".
We need to get better at the position and we need it to happen sooner vs. later...
I won't start any threads on the #2 pick because I don't have strong feelings about who they should pick or even if they should stay in that spot.
I'm surprised so many people are cut-dried on this. Setting themselves up for disappointment if the draft doesn't turn out the way they want, even if their way isn't ideal.
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at that point Eli will be 39. we dont have the ammo to rebuild in one offseason. in two years we will be forced to move on from Eli and now move up in the draft to get a QB... we should just grab one now at #2 and be done with it.. If this was a one year rebuild i would think different but we are not contending for atleast two seasons.. By then Eli will be too old to build around.
Who says it's a 2 year rebuild? That's the type of thing I'm talking about. You're forcing a QB pick based on some hypothetical rebuild time period.
Three of the four teams in the Championship game were not in the playoffs last year, and finished .500 or worse (8-8, 7-9, 3-13).
This is important. With the exception of New England every season is essentially a crapshoot. Who would have thought when Bradford and Cook got hurt the Vikings would be playing for a Super Bowl birth? Or that the Jaguars would turn around this quickly.
That’s also why I would take the QB at 2. If this is a quick turnaround you’ll potentially have your franchise QB to be part of it.
I won't start any threads on the #2 pick because I don't have strong feelings about who they should pick or even if they should stay in that spot.
I'm surprised so many people are cut-dried on this. Setting themselves up for disappointment if the draft doesn't turn out the way they want, even if their way isn't ideal.
Me too, that's why I started the thread. I'm hoping to come away feeling pretty good with whoever they pick, honestly. It's a good position to be in.
Get the best player here.
THIS!!
I won't start any threads on the #2 pick because I don't have strong feelings about who they should pick or even if they should stay in that spot.
I'm surprised so many people are cut-dried on this. Setting themselves up for disappointment if the draft doesn't turn out the way they want, even if their way isn't ideal.
I’m for taking the QB at 2, but I won’t be disappointed if they don’t because you’re potentially getting a franchise changer at 2, regardless of position.
I’d be dissapointed if they didn’t come out this draft with a quarterback that could be the future.
I'm surprised you find this surprising.
I mean, nice in theory, but are we simply 'trying to convince ourselves' that it's OK to covet a WR or some shirt early?
Theories can be very problematic.
Those banking in selecting a qb in future years, I will say what if it's a weak class, it's happened many times over recent years and the Giants are in a position of needing one? Do they contemplate a bears type trade for a weak qb out of need?
I don't want another WCO here but the difference between Shurmur and McAdoo is night and day. Shurmur is an accomplished offensive mind who understands how to put a good offense together. He wouldn't have a bottom-feeding offense with Eli, Odell, Engram and Shepard.
This doesn't speak perfectly well of them, but I think human nature set in. The D carried the O all year in 2016 and as soon as they saw it was "same old shit" they gave up. Get the defense believing again, get a real special teams unit, and the ship can be righted.
I'll tell you another reason teams may be wary of franchise QB's. When you have guys like Kirk Cousins, who are getting paid through the roof based on market value, teams may reconsider how they build their team so that that position may be more interchangeable.
Gettleman said it himself, despite the evolution, you still win in this league by running the ball, stopping the run, and rushing the passer.
Look at Jacksonville and Minny? They don't need franchise quarterback play to be successful, they just need good/smart QB play. And if they find an average to above average guy? They're in contention every year.
Look at Jacksonville and Minny? They don't need franchise quarterback play to be successful, they just need good/smart QB play. And if they find an average to above average guy? They're in contention every year.
Yes they also need a top defense. A great running game alone won't get you anywhere if your defense sucks.
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Look at Jacksonville and Minny? They don't need franchise quarterback play to be successful, they just need good/smart QB play. And if they find an average to above average guy? They're in contention every year.
Yes they also need a top defense. A great running game alone won't get you anywhere if your defense sucks.
So maybe they go DE @ 2.
I'll tell you another reason teams may be wary of franchise QB's. When you have guys like Kirk Cousins, who are getting paid through the roof based on market value, teams may reconsider how they build their team so that that position may be more interchangeable.
Gettleman said it himself, despite the evolution, you still win in this league by running the ball, stopping the run, and rushing the passer.
Look at Jacksonville and Minny? They don't need franchise quarterback play to be successful, they just need good/smart QB play. And if they find an average to above average guy? They're in contention every year.
Only 6 times has a QB making over 10% of the cap have won a Super Bowl and they all either are HOFers or will be in the HOF. The idea has always been that the QB should be the highest paid on the team because the WR's and RB's aren't effective without it, but Minnesota proves otherwise.
Maybe the bubble on QB salaries will burst.
That is the guy I want, as well. But again, I think they will benefit from anybody they draft if he is their BPA.
I tend to agree EXCEPT on Keenum. No thanks. His Joe Hardy year is about to end. a few weeks later than Ryan Fitzpatrick's did in 2015.
I'll tell you another reason teams may be wary of franchise QB's. When you have guys like Kirk Cousins, who are getting paid through the roof based on market value, teams may reconsider how they build their team so that that position may be more interchangeable.
Gettleman said it himself, despite the evolution, you still win in this league by running the ball, stopping the run, and rushing the passer.
Look at Jacksonville and Minny? They don't need franchise quarterback play to be successful, they just need good/smart QB play. And if they find an average to above average guy? They're in contention every year.
It exists as much as ever. This year is the exception, not the rule. I believe there are 31 qbs who have won a Super Bowl, I counted 7 that weren't franchise qbs. Over the past 15 years, how many non franchise qbs have won a sb? Look no further than last years final 4, which was more the norm of qb talent level.
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I'm not sure "franchise quarterback" means what it used to mean. I'm not even sure those guys exist anymore really. Luck is the last one I can remember being in the true franchise QB mold.
I'll tell you another reason teams may be wary of franchise QB's. When you have guys like Kirk Cousins, who are getting paid through the roof based on market value, teams may reconsider how they build their team so that that position may be more interchangeable.
Gettleman said it himself, despite the evolution, you still win in this league by running the ball, stopping the run, and rushing the passer.
Look at Jacksonville and Minny? They don't need franchise quarterback play to be successful, they just need good/smart QB play. And if they find an average to above average guy? They're in contention every year.
It exists as much as ever. This year is the exception, not the rule. I believe there are 31 qbs who have won a Super Bowl, I counted 7 that weren't franchise qbs. Over the past 15 years, how many non franchise qbs have won a sb? Look no further than last years final 4, which was more the norm of qb talent level.
The true franchise QBs are getting long in the tooth. The league is littered with more of the Marriotta type QBs than Drew Brees or Brady type.
Historical data doesn’t mean much until all of the true franchise type guys hang em up.
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In comment 13796732 Britt in VA said:
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I'm not sure "franchise quarterback" means what it used to mean. I'm not even sure those guys exist anymore really. Luck is the last one I can remember being in the true franchise QB mold.
I'll tell you another reason teams may be wary of franchise QB's. When you have guys like Kirk Cousins, who are getting paid through the roof based on market value, teams may reconsider how they build their team so that that position may be more interchangeable.
Gettleman said it himself, despite the evolution, you still win in this league by running the ball, stopping the run, and rushing the passer.
Look at Jacksonville and Minny? They don't need franchise quarterback play to be successful, they just need good/smart QB play. And if they find an average to above average guy? They're in contention every year.
It exists as much as ever. This year is the exception, not the rule. I believe there are 31 qbs who have won a Super Bowl, I counted 7 that weren't franchise qbs. Over the past 15 years, how many non franchise qbs have won a sb? Look no further than last years final 4, which was more the norm of qb talent level.
The true franchise QBs are getting long in the tooth. The league is littered with more of the Marriotta type QBs than Drew Brees or Brady type.
Historical data doesn’t mean much until all of the true franchise type guys hang em up.
Seems like that is said every time a group of franchise qbs retires. Whether it was the guys in the 70s, the class of 83, manning/Brady/brees, the 2004 class- it's always the same sentiment, era of franchise qb is over. There will be a new class of truly franchise qbs in the coming years just like there always are. Perhaps the start is the 2018 class. It will never go away in this league. It's a tried and tested method to having a shot at a sb. Yes, there will be years where a truly dominant defenses can carry you, it's just not al that often.
Look at this:
2007
1: JaMarcus Russell, Raiders
22: Brady Quinn, Browns
2008
3: Matt Ryan, Falcons
18: Joe Flacco, Ravens
2009
1: Matthew Stafford, Lions
5: Mark Sanchez, Jets
17: Josh Freeman, Buccaneers
2010
1: Sam Bradford, Rams
25: Tim Tebow, Broncos
2011
1: Cam Newton, Panthers
8: Jake Locker, Titans
10: Blaine Gabbert, Jaguars
12: Christian Ponder, Vikings
2012
1: Andrew Luck, Colts
2: Robert Griffin III, Redskins
8: Ryan Tannehill, Dolphins
22: Brandon Weeden, Browns
2013
16: EJ Manuel, Bills
2014
3: Blake Bortles, Jaguars
22: Johnny Manziel, Browns
32: Teddy Bridgewater, Vikings
2015
1: Jameis Winston, Buccaneers
2: Marcus Mariota, Titans
2016
1: Jared Goff, Rams
2: Carson Wentz, Eagles
26: Paxton Lynch, Broncos
There just don't appear to be the classic mold franchise QB's out there anymore.... They are becoming more and more scarce...
And like Will said, once they retire, what will be left?
This article is from prior to last year's draft, and is an interesting read:
Agent’s Take: Recent draft history shows first-round QBs are more likely to fail - ( New Window )
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In comment 13796804 lax counsel said:
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In comment 13796732 Britt in VA said:
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I'm not sure "franchise quarterback" means what it used to mean. I'm not even sure those guys exist anymore really. Luck is the last one I can remember being in the true franchise QB mold.
I'll tell you another reason teams may be wary of franchise QB's. When you have guys like Kirk Cousins, who are getting paid through the roof based on market value, teams may reconsider how they build their team so that that position may be more interchangeable.
Gettleman said it himself, despite the evolution, you still win in this league by running the ball, stopping the run, and rushing the passer.
Look at Jacksonville and Minny? They don't need franchise quarterback play to be successful, they just need good/smart QB play. And if they find an average to above average guy? They're in contention every year.
It exists as much as ever. This year is the exception, not the rule. I believe there are 31 qbs who have won a Super Bowl, I counted 7 that weren't franchise qbs. Over the past 15 years, how many non franchise qbs have won a sb? Look no further than last years final 4, which was more the norm of qb talent level.
The true franchise QBs are getting long in the tooth. The league is littered with more of the Marriotta type QBs than Drew Brees or Brady type.
Historical data doesn’t mean much until all of the true franchise type guys hang em up.
Seems like that is said every time a group of franchise qbs retires. Whether it was the guys in the 70s, the class of 83, manning/Brady/brees, the 2004 class- it's always the same sentiment, era of franchise qb is over. There will be a new class of truly franchise qbs in the coming years just like there always are. Perhaps the start is the 2018 class. It will never go away in this league. It's a tried and tested method to having a shot at a sb. Yes, there will be years where a truly dominant defenses can carry you, it's just not al that often.
I think you are severely discounting the proliferation of the spread offense in college football.
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at that point Eli will be 39. we dont have the ammo to rebuild in one offseason. in two years we will be forced to move on from Eli and now move up in the draft to get a QB... we should just grab one now at #2 and be done with it.. If this was a one year rebuild i would think different but we are not contending for atleast two seasons.. By then Eli will be too old to build around.
Who says it's a 2 year rebuild? That's the type of thing I'm talking about. You're forcing a QB pick based on some hypothetical rebuild time period.
Three of the four teams in the Championship game were not in the playoffs last year, and finished .500 or worse (8-8, 7-9, 3-13).
This team has talent on it. McAdoo was horrible. A new coach and philosophy might be better at showcasing that talent, especially on offense.
Its effeminately not a 2 year rebuild. If we signed Whitworth, which we should have, we were likely a playoff team this year (of course that means the massive injury bug had to have not happened, etc). We are a RT, LT and G away from being very competitive. That is not a 2 year rebuild. However, I welcome a full rebuild as well, even if its 2-3 years. I want new blood, new system (we got it) new things to root for.
That way we will only be a franchise QB away from getting into the playoffs over the next decade.
solid thinking...
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In comment 13796827 WillVAB said:
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In comment 13796804 lax counsel said:
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In comment 13796732 Britt in VA said:
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I'm not sure "franchise quarterback" means what it used to mean. I'm not even sure those guys exist anymore really. Luck is the last one I can remember being in the true franchise QB mold.
I'll tell you another reason teams may be wary of franchise QB's. When you have guys like Kirk Cousins, who are getting paid through the roof based on market value, teams may reconsider how they build their team so that that position may be more interchangeable.
Gettleman said it himself, despite the evolution, you still win in this league by running the ball, stopping the run, and rushing the passer.
Look at Jacksonville and Minny? They don't need franchise quarterback play to be successful, they just need good/smart QB play. And if they find an average to above average guy? They're in contention every year.
It exists as much as ever. This year is the exception, not the rule. I believe there are 31 qbs who have won a Super Bowl, I counted 7 that weren't franchise qbs. Over the past 15 years, how many non franchise qbs have won a sb? Look no further than last years final 4, which was more the norm of qb talent level.
The true franchise QBs are getting long in the tooth. The league is littered with more of the Marriotta type QBs than Drew Brees or Brady type.
Historical data doesn’t mean much until all of the true franchise type guys hang em up.
Seems like that is said every time a group of franchise qbs retires. Whether it was the guys in the 70s, the class of 83, manning/Brady/brees, the 2004 class- it's always the same sentiment, era of franchise qb is over. There will be a new class of truly franchise qbs in the coming years just like there always are. Perhaps the start is the 2018 class. It will never go away in this league. It's a tried and tested method to having a shot at a sb. Yes, there will be years where a truly dominant defenses can carry you, it's just not al that often.
I think you are severely discounting the proliferation of the spread offense in college football.
Spread offenses have always been around. We will agree to disagree. It just seems like every time an outgoing group of qbs retires, we hear about the end of the franchise qb. When Aikman, Marino, Montana, Young, Farve and co hung it up, we saw a brief period where you could get by with Kerry Collins, Trent dilfer, and Brad Johnson. Then, the manning brothers emerged, Ben, Brady, and Brees.
I think we're seeing that late 1990s early 2000s right now, where an ok qb can get you by. But I think we ll see an uptick back with top qbs. We're already starting to see it with Goff and Wentz. I think the 2018 class just furthers the next generation of great qbs.
The reason we haven't seen a lot of great qbs Over the last decade come out, is because they just don't come out very often. It's always been that way. That's why if you see one you grab one.
That way we will only be a franchise QB away from getting into the playoffs over the next decade.
solid thinking...
Have you read the thread or just carrying over from another thread? This isn't solely about QB. It's about not forcing a pick when you have such a valuable position.
It's a lot bigger picture than you're making it out to be. There is more than one way to build a championship team. Nick Foles, Blake Bortles, and Case Keenum are all Championship starting QB's this weekend. Recent draft history shows that "the top QB's" in the draft don't always turn into the top QB's in the NFL.
Look at this:
2007
1: JaMarcus Russell, Raiders
22: Brady Quinn, Browns
2008
3: Matt Ryan, Falcons
18: Joe Flacco, Ravens
2009
1: Matthew Stafford, Lions
5: Mark Sanchez, Jets
17: Josh Freeman, Buccaneers
2010
1: Sam Bradford, Rams
25: Tim Tebow, Broncos
2011
1: Cam Newton, Panthers
8: Jake Locker, Titans
10: Blaine Gabbert, Jaguars
12: Christian Ponder, Vikings
2012
1: Andrew Luck, Colts
2: Robert Griffin III, Redskins
8: Ryan Tannehill, Dolphins
22: Brandon Weeden, Browns
2013
16: EJ Manuel, Bills
2014
3: Blake Bortles, Jaguars
22: Johnny Manziel, Browns
32: Teddy Bridgewater, Vikings
2015
1: Jameis Winston, Buccaneers
2: Marcus Mariota, Titans
2016
1: Jared Goff, Rams
2: Carson Wentz, Eagles
26: Paxton Lynch, Broncos
There just don't appear to be the classic mold franchise QB's out there anymore.... They are becoming more and more scarce...
And like Will said, once they retire, what will be left?
This article is from prior to last year's draft, and is an interesting read: Agent’s Take: Recent draft history shows first-round QBs are more likely to fail - ( New Window )
What’s going to happen I think is as the true franchise qbs move on, the next wave will likely be on the level of Darnold, Rosen, etc...instead of expecting A+ level of play, perhaps the next wave only offers B+ level play. It’s been a while since the last “true” franchise qb of this era was produced. Perhaps the sport is seeing a transition away from the true franchise qb?
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at that point Eli will be 39. we dont have the ammo to rebuild in one offseason. in two years we will be forced to move on from Eli and now move up in the draft to get a QB... we should just grab one now at #2 and be done with it.. If this was a one year rebuild i would think different but we are not contending for atleast two seasons.. By then Eli will be too old to build around.
Who says it's a 2 year rebuild? That's the type of thing I'm talking about. You're forcing a QB pick based on some hypothetical rebuild time period.
Three of the four teams in the Championship game were not in the playoffs last year, and finished .500 or worse (8-8, 7-9, 3-13).
This team has talent on it. McAdoo was horrible. A new coach and philosophy might be better at showcasing that talent, especially on offense.
Many things have to fall in place for that to happen: first, your core players have to fit your next years schemes; then you need the right PLAYERS, COACHES, SCHEMES,BOUNCES, SCHEDULE. Look at our '15,'16,17 seasons! Down,up,down. Let's see those teams in '18 before we get excited by quick fixes because its no guarantee it will happen to NYFG.
2 years to respectability+ is a good view, IMO.
What’s going to happen I think is as the true franchise qbs move on, the next wave will likely be on the level of Darnold, Rosen, etc...instead of expecting A+ level of play, perhaps the next wave only offers B+ level play. It’s been a while since the last “true” franchise qb of this era was produced. Perhaps the sport is seeing a transition away from the true franchise qb?
Could be. Which then begs the ? which of those QBs do they want. But this idea that the Giants can't take a QB because none of them are the perfect, flawless prospect makes me chuckle. Pretty sure Brady wasn't seen as the perfect prospect coming out of College, either. You can be a less than perfect prospect and still wind up being a great QB/football player..
While the league may be shifting away from the true franchise QB, it’s always beneficial to acquire a guy who may potentially be among the better players at the position whenever it is the next wave settles in. That’s just my POV.
2) There may not be a more proven formula for sustained success than pairing a quality head coach with a top QB.
3) There aren't that many quality QBs out there. Teams who do not have an obvious quality starting QB frequently struggle to have sustained success
4) The team is unlikely to be in a position to address their long term needs at QB like they are now any time soon. And if options to address down the road require trade up, they can be VERY costly. So there are very real risks to not getting a guy now while they have this opportunity
4) There are no guarantees we are getting a quality starting QB, even if we draft one @2.
5) Selecting the wrong QB @ #2 can be risky. Committing to a QB who doesn't pan out will set your franchise back a few years, so you better be sure.
I think many are over complicating this. If the team believes there one of the QBs is going to be a top 10 type QB, I believe it is a no brainer to draft him. Eli has a limited window, Webb is a long shot, and good QBs are too valuable and too hard to come by. On the other hand, if they don't have that level of confidence in a guy, there are other very attractive non-QB options which should be taken.
This is going to come down to the team's evaluation of the top QB prospects in this draft, plain and simple. If they have conviction on a QB an he is there @2, they will take him and let our QB guru head coach try to turn him into something special. But if they don't, they will go in a different direction, the PS RB and trade down with a team who does like a QB both seem like very attractive options.
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at that point Eli will be 39. we dont have the ammo to rebuild in one offseason. in two years we will be forced to move on from Eli and now move up in the draft to get a QB... we should just grab one now at #2 and be done with it.. If this was a one year rebuild i would think different but we are not contending for atleast two seasons.. By then Eli will be too old to build around.
Who says it's a 2 year rebuild? That's the type of thing I'm talking about. You're forcing a QB pick based on some hypothetical rebuild time period.
Three of the four teams in the Championship game were not in the playoffs last year, and finished .500 or worse (8-8, 7-9, 3-13).
This team has talent on it. McAdoo was horrible. A new coach and philosophy might be better at showcasing that talent, especially on offense.
Spot on as usual Britt.
I also think it would be a wasted opportunity to have the #2 pick, needing a QB, and not getting one. If they don’t think any QB is worth the #2 , then I really hope they trade away that pick for 2019 picks sufficient to guarantee the buying power to move into the #1 position in 2019. They really need to use this pick to translate into the next franchise QB who plays for the next 15 years.
IF a QB is in the top tier, I'd put emphasis on that position. Within a tier, position/need ALWAYS factor in. it should be no different here.
Do not pick a QB who is not in your top tier.
Keenum is going to cash in on this magical year. All FA QB's not named Kaepernick who have a decent year cash in. There is no such thing as a modest deal bringing him in.