“Gettleman, The Post has learned, is tearing up the Giants’ entire operation when it comes to the draft — from how players are graded, how scouts will be assigned and how the actual draft board is assembled.” Link - ( New Window )
A lot of people wanted everybody gone including the scouts. Imo, they have a ton of experience and connections that are extremely beneficial. They just needed to change how we evaluated players and what we emphasize. Gettleman has been killing it.
Don't be surprised if some people are let go after the draft.
A lot of people wanted everybody gone including the scouts. Imo, they have a ton of experience and connections that are extremely beneficial. They just needed to change how we evaluated players and what we emphasize. Gettleman has been killing it.
Don't be surprised if some people are let go after the draft.
Of course not. My post was about throwing the baby out with the bath water. The entire staff doesn't need to be blown up. I think the quote, "In order to make an omlete you have to crack a few eggs," is most appropriate.
In comment 13797986 KerrysFlask said:
Quote: Quote:
Reese didn’t spend enough time scouting college prospects, according to some people who work for the Giants.
Reese was a Giants scout before he rose through the ranks to top-executive status, but in recent years he increasingly distanced himself from his area of expertise. He assigned himself to only one college game in 2016 and only one in 2017 — Florida State at Louisville, to check out quarterback Lamar Jackson. There were some in the building who wondered why Reese did not at least drive down to Rutgers on game days to check out the Big Ten prospects on the field, or why Reese saw the need to watch a Giants walk-through on a Saturday when there were college games to see on various campuses.////
That surprised me too. Makes me wonder what the hell he was doing. That's supposed to be his busiest time of the year.
Hammer, it pisses the hell out of me, but given the production of the team's college scouting operation over the past five years, I can't really say I'm surprised. Fits in with his arrogance: once he became top dog, maybe he figured he didn't have to work at the most important part of his job.
Anyone hear from rfflair recently on JR's immediate employment prospects?
The size/weight/speed quote was music to my ears Â
with "seductive measurables" and a lack of passion for the game?
Travis Beckum
Clint Sintim
JPP of TE's
Amukamara
Will Beatty
Larry Donnell
So many more.
To me heart matters infinitely more than measurables. If one guy has more raw talent opposite a guy with intense passion for the game, and he's technically sound but doesn't have a 50" vertical that the first guy has... you go with the latter every single time.
Kudos to Gettleman for bringing common sense back to the New York Giants. I have high hopes with news like this.
how Reese changed the process from what was done during the Young/Accorsi days (or if he was running things the way EA was). Funny, EA could draft Linebackers, but he always had issues with Offensive Linemen, if I recall correctly.
Ernie Accorsi didn't draft a single above-average LB in his time with the Giants, unless you believe Dhani Jones was above-average. Reese followed the same model with the same results.
how Reese changed the process from what was done during the Young/Accorsi days (or if he was running things the way EA was). Funny, EA could draft Linebackers, but he always had issues with Offensive Linemen, if I recall correctly.
Ernie Accorsi didn't draft a single above-average LB in his time with the Giants, unless you believe Dhani Jones was above-average. Reese followed the same model with the same results.
Yeah I’m not sure where the “Accorsi could draft LBs” line comes from.
Gerris Wilkinson...Reggie Torbor...Wes Mallard, Quincy Monk, Brandon Short, you mentioned Dhani Jones, Nick Greisen, Ryan Phillips
I’d say Accorsi sucked at drafting LBs. Thankfully we had a pro personnel guy named Gettleman on hand to find FAs like Antonio Pierce, Kawika Mitchell, Michael Boley (who on balance was eh, but was good during the 2011 SB season)
There is nothing wrong with height weight speed criteria Â
You don’t need a bunch of college stars who get run over in the NFL either. Most NFL draft choices were “productive” players. The problem was too many of these “JPP of (fill in position)” didn’t seem all that fast or all that strong or were tweeners. Does anyone think Adrien Robinson was a so fast for his size? How about Rosas’ generational leg? Did Clint Sintim seem mobile and agile?
There was nothing wrong with the criteria but the execution was horrendous. Gettleman won’t be long for the job if his productive players are filled with passion and desire right up until they get run over by some other team’s DL
RE: Remember when Mike Lombardi said that things Â
weren't going to change much in the Giants' front office?
Mike Lombardi is laughably bad. I safely ignore whatever he claims to know.
He knew McAdoo was a terrible hire two years ago. And he know Patricia and McDaniels weren't coming here. His point was the Giants weren't reorganizing their structure - GM who acquires players, owner who hires coach - not that a new GM wouldn't try to put his stamp on things.
Recall many of those LBs as attempts to find low pick Â
Value plays based on measurables (mallard, very fast, for example).
Lesson being :'pick higher.'
But lesson two (slightly better, Goff) looking for INTs and PDs...
Finally, for ALL defensive players ...you look for the outlier or indicator plays made
I.e. more than a handful of fumbles caused and recovered (even for DTs, for example)... Passes defended (even for DEs for example, tipped)...tackles behind the line... Sidelines.. In addition to height weight and tackles...and certainly over and above name of school.
Playmakers. Then. At lb...you have subsets based on the divergence of bigger and bigger OLs and quicker passing games. So pick your poison...more safety like or more able to take on huge O tackles.
Seems like former scouts would start with a single name Â
Much better to spreadsheet all players ALL, not just leading or good schools, eligible at a position...
And All stats ALL.. and height weight and age etc...
Than look for outliers.. Passes caught... Not just yards per.... Ints per game averages...not just highlight hits... Etc..regardless of name, school, etc...then work from there ...including that stuff with a grain of salt... or not (school, hype, name..)
Put the board together before the combine nonsense and change it only if you find off the field / behavioral issues, a new discovery pops up or some other significant suprise.
I’ve never understood scouts that obsess about 40 yard speed, how many bench presses, etc. By far the best indicator of future success is game performance.
Value plays based on measurables (mallard, very fast, for example).
Lesson being :'pick higher.'
But lesson two (slightly better, Goff) looking for INTs and PDs...
Finally, for ALL defensive players ...you look for the outlier or indicator plays made
I.e. more than a handful of fumbles caused and recovered (even for DTs, for example)... Passes defended (even for DEs for example, tipped)...tackles behind the line... Sidelines.. In addition to height weight and tackles...and certainly over and above name of school.
Playmakers. Then. At lb...you have subsets based on the divergence of bigger and bigger OLs and quicker passing games. So pick your poison...more safety like or more able to take on huge O tackles.
True - but Accorsi helped build our SB teams with some great hits on mid-late round picks at other positions - Jacobs, Diehl, Tuck, Bradshaw, Cofield, Gibril Wilson - all solid starters or better for our SB teams
Point being, which is an aside to the overall discussion, outside of Armstead this team really hasn’t drafted a stud LB since Pepper Johnson in 86. Which is weird.
Was hoping the article would at least mention the role of the Â
nothing wrong with focus on measurables, but obviously there is more to assess than that when picking good players.
Giants certainly haven't drafted well and I don't need a 32-team analysis to prove that. We have focused drafting along just a few key positions and left others to die on the vine. And to exacerbate the issue, we weren't all that good at drafting quality players at those key positions (DL, CB and WR). Meanwhile LB, OL, TE and RB have been abysmal.
We have been short for many years at just finding what I would say are "football players"...guys that have both talent and limitations, but somehow bring their football intelligence and desire to the field and minimize their limitations as best they can.
I was never really a David Diehl fan until I saw what a friggin' train-wreck Ereck Flowers is. I cannot believe any human being can get paid as a scout and say that James Brewer is our kind of guy. How does someone not realize that the league is moving towards faster Tight Ends that can create mismatches until 2017? At what point do you say we need somebody that can cover a Tight End like Jason Witten that plays in our division and draft an athletic Linebacker versus keeping Mark Herzlich on the roster?
Evening guys: If one actually reads the article carefully really the only thing that is going to change in the short term is the way the Giants stack their board. And that raises something that never really made a whole lot of sense from the previous regime. In the past couple of years Ross in particular was quoted a couple of times saying that in fact the Giants ranked players in rows as every team does but then he said that the Giants would have 32 guys in each row. Which sounds like they differentiated players by rounds and then ranked them within rounds. It will be interesting to see what Gettleman means by 'vertical and horizontal' which sounds a bit like 3-D chess!
That said I think people need to hold their water at least until we actually see the results. In fact if you look at the 5 Carolina drafts in DG's tenure they don't loo a whole lot unlike the Giants in the same period. They used 2 premium picks on OL, we had three; they did draft one LB with a premium pick (who was 7th on the team in tackles this fall); they had 2 players taken in that period go to Pro Bowls; we had two; they also got one starter out of their third-day picks in that period.
Bottom line is that if the Giants and DG luck out and hit some picks, especially the 2nd this year, he'll end up going down as a pretty good fix at GM. If he ain't lucky he'll end up being just another stupid Mara decision.
Are so easily fooled he stayed with the same draft service, all but two of the top head scout guys, put a different form to be completed and the most important thing scouts will now judge the players love for the game along with production. Damn folks sounds like what’s been being done for years not a whole lot different to me. You can give someone a different form but the ideas will in most cases remain 90%+ the same. I’m not going to rate player A below player B just because I filled out a different form.
The NFL draft is a three or four year final results process to see results if he had changed more personnel then I could see a major shift in drafted guys. Now if he is going to be the final vote on or between player A and B he had better hope the information his scouts provides is correct or he really will be in the film room forever. From past experience people are almost always against immediate changes and lazy in performing new doctrines in a very short time frame. Evaluate the present system tweet it in the beginning and after a total system process run then make adjustments that bring people on board with your ideas. Nothing worse then having employees guessing what is he really looking for me to provide since we’ve done it this way for years.
I hear a big cheer for DG changing everything but the rankings of players on most boards remain quite close. As for draft experts they will also love or like the same players given a range of ten picks one way or the other. I’ll admit that we might not see any below 600 rated players drafted in the fifth or sixth round but it’s still a very high miss rate more than hit rate draft process. We could draft the top 10 range BPA in each round but that still does not mean three or four years from now all 6/7 players will still be on the roster or team assets.
Humans sing the praise for those who have done nothing yet because the voice is new but overtime the voice without true and real production will turn to cries of tears of frustration.
Two family members who were 1st round busts. One RB who played 10 years as a back-up and one LT who had success switching to RG for 12 years.
They both had one thing in common. They HATED football. I come from a family with a pro golfer, tennis player, 2 time Olympic medalist and a whole lot of just misses.
These two guys (both by marriage, the others are blood) are the only two who wouldn't allow for their profession talk during or after their playing days.
Had they been 4th round picks (which they should have been) they would have not have been busts. The talent and measurables were off the charts but their hearts were not in it. I'm talking all the way back to high school.
Gettleman has to know that many a measureable guy does not like the game. I'm two for two so I'm guessing there are a ton of them.
Homer that always reminds me of next door neighbor growing up. He had the size, talent and smarts to be an NFL player. He got a full ride at Penn State until his junior year he lost the drive to play ball. He transfered out on an academic scholarship and became a doctor
Are so easily fooled he stayed with the same draft service, all but two of the top head scout guys, put a different form to be completed and the most important thing scouts will now judge the players love for the game along with production. Damn folks sounds like what’s been being done for years not a whole lot different to me. You can give someone a different form but the ideas will in most cases remain 90%+ the same. I’m not going to rate player A below player B just because I filled out a different form.
The NFL draft is a three or four year final results process to see results if he had changed more personnel then I could see a major shift in drafted guys. Now if he is going to be the final vote on or between player A and B he had better hope the information his scouts provides is correct or he really will be in the film room forever. From past experience people are almost always against immediate changes and lazy in performing new doctrines in a very short time frame. Evaluate the present system tweet it in the beginning and after a total system process run then make adjustments that bring people on board with your ideas. Nothing worse then having employees guessing what is he really looking for me to provide since we’ve done it this way for years.
I hear a big cheer for DG changing everything but the rankings of players on most boards remain quite close. As for draft experts they will also love or like the same players given a range of ten picks one way or the other. I’ll admit that we might not see any below 600 rated players drafted in the fifth or sixth round but it’s still a very high miss rate more than hit rate draft process. We could draft the top 10 range BPA in each round but that still does not mean three or four years from now all 6/7 players will still be on the roster or team assets.
Humans sing the praise for those who have done nothing yet because the voice is new but overtime the voice without true and real production will turn to cries of tears of frustration.
Must be a real drag for you to have to interact with humans so much
Evening guys: If one actually reads the article carefully really the only thing that is going to change in the short term is the way the Giants stack their board. And that raises something that never really made a whole lot of sense from the previous regime. In the past couple of years Ross in particular was quoted a couple of times saying that in fact the Giants ranked players in rows as every team does but then he said that the Giants would have 32 guys in each row. Which sounds like they differentiated players by rounds and then ranked them within rounds. It will be interesting to see what Gettleman means by 'vertical and horizontal' which sounds a bit like 3-D chess!
That said I think people need to hold their water at least until we actually see the results. In fact if you look at the 5 Carolina drafts in DG's tenure they don't loo a whole lot unlike the Giants in the same period. They used 2 premium picks on OL, we had three; they did draft one LB with a premium pick (who was 7th on the team in tackles this fall); they had 2 players taken in that period go to Pro Bowls; we had two; they also got one starter out of their third-day picks in that period.
Bottom line is that if the Giants and DG luck out and hit some picks, especially the 2nd this year, he'll end up going down as a pretty good fix at GM. If he ain't lucky he'll end up being just another stupid Mara decision.
Colin the article mentions changing the grading system metrics in addition to changing the way the board is stacked
Evening guys: If one actually reads the article carefully really the only thing that is going to change in the short term is the way the Giants stack their board. And that raises something that never really made a whole lot of sense from the previous regime. In the past couple of years Ross in particular was quoted a couple of times saying that in fact the Giants ranked players in rows as every team does but then he said that the Giants would have 32 guys in each row. Which sounds like they differentiated players by rounds and then ranked them within rounds. It will be interesting to see what Gettleman means by 'vertical and horizontal' which sounds a bit like 3-D chess!
That said I think people need to hold their water at least until we actually see the results. In fact if you look at the 5 Carolina drafts in DG's tenure they don't loo a whole lot unlike the Giants in the same period. They used 2 premium picks on OL, we had three; they did draft one LB with a premium pick (who was 7th on the team in tackles this fall); they had 2 players taken in that period go to Pro Bowls; we had two; they also got one starter out of their third-day picks in that period.
Bottom line is that if the Giants and DG luck out and hit some picks, especially the 2nd this year, he'll end up going down as a pretty good fix at GM. If he ain't lucky he'll end up being just another stupid Mara decision.
Colin - The Panthers are a perennial playoff team in large part because of what DG did for 4 years there, he kept the OL and DL strong and that allows you do just about anything you want on O or D. This draft will look vastly different to what we've been doing which is using the tape measure and stop watch and hoping for success. Erik Flowers is the poster child for that failure as is Eli Apple. Both have every measurable you want in those premium positions, but neither produced well nor had their heads on straight and that was evident on tape. We'll be adding more football players, not guys who look good on a sheet.
RE: I think that deep in this is a key underlying issue Â
A big problem that we have seen over the past several years is that there have been a number of players with "raw talent"- but no real love for the game.
Sure you can "hit a HR" drafting those types of players- but the problem is that that type of player is quite often unwilling to put in anything more than what will maintain their current state- and is definitely not willing to go "all in" to get better.
In some ways, I think this is what Coughlin was referring to years ago about injuries being a mental thing. When you live off your talent, you often are not willing to go at less than 100% simply because you do not have the mental strength to push through unless you can physically dominate your opponent- and a player at 80% is just another guy- meaning you aren't going to beat your opponent.
Think of some of the end season articles and reports that came out- where we learned that Collins and DRC, in particular, had been gutting it out through difficult injuries. THAT is the player willing to leave it all out there.
While I do not have any inside knowledge of the injuries that Apple or Hart had, the questions that were raised by many inside and outside the team about their toughness and willingness to do what it took raises questions in my mind about how much they love the game- and whether they play the game because their natural physical skills let them play vs. working to be the best player they can be.
Of course, we all know that the hardest thing to measure in a player is their heart and passion for the game- too many prospects are trained in the draft prep to say and do the right things before the draft, so that it is difficult to get to what makes the guy tick until you get him on the practice field.
However, I think that, Gettleman is attempting to get the scouts to find out what makes the player tick and how much he WANTS to play in the NFL when they are assessing how the physical skills translate to the NFL.
Aren’t you the same clown who thought the Giants had an awesome draft last year?
Evening guys: If one actually reads the article carefully really the only thing that is going to change in the short term is the way the Giants stack their board. And that raises something that never really made a whole lot of sense from the previous regime. In the past couple of years Ross in particular was quoted a couple of times saying that in fact the Giants ranked players in rows as every team does but then he said that the Giants would have 32 guys in each row. Which sounds like they differentiated players by rounds and then ranked them within rounds. It will be interesting to see what Gettleman means by 'vertical and horizontal' which sounds a bit like 3-D chess!
That said I think people need to hold their water at least until we actually see the results. In fact if you look at the 5 Carolina drafts in DG's tenure they don't loo a whole lot unlike the Giants in the same period. They used 2 premium picks on OL, we had three; they did draft one LB with a premium pick (who was 7th on the team in tackles this fall); they had 2 players taken in that period go to Pro Bowls; we had two; they also got one starter out of their third-day picks in that period.
Bottom line is that if the Giants and DG luck out and hit some picks, especially the 2nd this year, he'll end up going down as a pretty good fix at GM. If he ain't lucky he'll end up being just another stupid Mara decision.
This is just another idiotic hot take from a faux draft guru.
The draft is not luck. Building a roster is not luck. If it was, we would see a revolving door of dominant teams around the league and that’s simply not the case.
It’s about having a vision for the team and finding players who fit that vision. It’s refreshing to have a GM with an actual plan.
RE: I think that deep in this is a key underlying issue Â
A big problem that we have seen over the past several years is that there have been a number of players with "raw talent"- but no real love for the game.
Sure you can "hit a HR" drafting those types of players- but the problem is that that type of player is quite often unwilling to put in anything more than what will maintain their current state- and is definitely not willing to go "all in" to get better.
In some ways, I think this is what Coughlin was referring to years ago about injuries being a mental thing. When you live off your talent, you often are not willing to go at less than 100% simply because you do not have the mental strength to push through unless you can physically dominate your opponent- and a player at 80% is just another guy- meaning you aren't going to beat your opponent.
Think of some of the end season articles and reports that came out- where we learned that Collins and DRC, in particular, had been gutting it out through difficult injuries. THAT is the player willing to leave it all out there.
While I do not have any inside knowledge of the injuries that Apple or Hart had, the questions that were raised by many inside and outside the team about their toughness and willingness to do what it took raises questions in my mind about how much they love the game- and whether they play the game because their natural physical skills let them play vs. working to be the best player they can be.
Of course, we all know that the hardest thing to measure in a player is their heart and passion for the game- too many prospects are trained in the draft prep to say and do the right things before the draft, so that it is difficult to get to what makes the guy tick until you get him on the practice field.
However, I think that, Gettleman is attempting to get the scouts to find out what makes the player tick and how much he WANTS to play in the NFL when they are assessing how the physical skills translate to the NFL.
Gidie: If you actually read the article carefully the comments about the size/speed stuff actually appears to be a supposition by the author not a direct comment by DG. It does appear that DG plans to make more changes to the philosophy and structure but he indicates that those will come after the draft.
Joey: DG took over an emerging team in Carolina whose best players - Cam Newton, Luke Kuechley, Jon Stewart, Thomas Davis, Greg Olsen, and Josh Norman were all pretty much in place. He certainly added some players but if you do an honest eval of the Panthers and Giants drafts 2013-2017 there isn't much to choose between the two.
Again I am not trying to sell DG short; he'll be a good GM. He's a good football guy who knows his stuff. And the fact is if he (we) hit on the 2nd pick we are likely in for another nice run; if he doesn't (and the odds are about 50-50) we are very likely looking at a stretch of .500 seasons. But that my friends is life in the NFL.
Gidie: If you actually read the article carefully the comments about the size/speed stuff actually appears to be a supposition by the author not a direct comment by DG. It does appear that DG plans to make more changes to the philosophy and structure but he indicates that those will come after the draft.
Joey: DG took over an emerging team in Carolina whose best players - Cam Newton, Luke Kuechley, Jon Stewart, Thomas Davis, Greg Olsen, and Josh Norman were all pretty much in place. He certainly added some players but if you do an honest eval of the Panthers and Giants drafts 2013-2017 there isn't much to choose between the two.
Again I am not trying to sell DG short; he'll be a good GM. He's a good football guy who knows his stuff. And the fact is if he (we) hit on the 2nd pick we are likely in for another nice run; if he doesn't (and the odds are about 50-50) we are very likely looking at a stretch of .500 seasons. But that my friends is life in the NFL.
colin, I do see limiting language in that article -- and it specifically references the way scouts are assigned and move around the country, and a checks and balances system for their evaluations that it is too late to implement this year. It also indicates that he is not going to do a complete overhaul this year. But it also has attributable quotes like:
Quote:
“We’re changing everything around in the department, from how we operate to the grading scale, everything,’’ a Giants source familiar with Gettleman’s thinking told The Post. “Everything. Nothing’s going to stay the same.’’
and
Quote:
“My goal here is to just to do a better job to improve the evaluation process, to make it more concise, make it more clear as to the types of players we are looking for and we want to draft,’’ Gettleman said.
Hey - look I respect your perspective colin. It may be true that i'm hearing what I want to hear, and Gettlemen is talking the way I'd like to hear him talk, and that your practical interpretation is for all intensive purposes correct. One thing is certainly true - the scouts can't go out very much anymore this year and use his metrics in the field on this year's prospects. There are physical and practical limits to what he can actually change right away. But it certainly sounds like he rolling up his sleeves and shaking a few of the scouts up from the grousing that came out of the scouts during the week through Tony Pauline.
normally become leaders, which this team is severely lacking.
He will make some changes this year based on his philosophy of drafting. I just don’t see him going into this draft with the same methods that Reese used, after saying he has a philosophical shift. It may not be as evident this draft, but I’m sure he doesn’t want to poo-poo this draft either if it means using the old system of grading.
The main thing is he is no longer discounting players that may not have all the measurables, but have intangibles that may also allow them to succeed. There’s a lot to be said for the mental aspect of the game and desire!
and if the scouts don't do a good job with this draft,
some of them may be unemployed. That is what I was hoping
for along with Ross. They couldn't do it before April...
So they get at least one more draft
to prove their worth. The alarming thing I read, was
in the 'old' system, the Giants had some players listed
as 'C' prospects by their scouts.
They were drafted elsewhere, and have been productive players in the league, as Gettleman observed, not good.
I’ve never understood scouts that obsess about 40 yard speed, how many bench presses, etc. By far the best indicator of future success is game performance.
No more stupid projects on this team.
Not necessarily. If it was Archie Griffin and Ron Dayne would be in the Hall of Fame and Case Keenum would be on his way. You start with measureables because without them, all the passion and desire in the world aren't going to help.
The problem was in the execution. Spending draft choices on tweeners who didn't seem to fit anywhere, or assuming that a dope like our LT could be coached up despite the flaws in his game that big time D-1 coaching couldn't fix(you can read the pre-draft report on NFL.com. He still has the same technique problems). His problems were well-known- this is not on the scouts.
And we've heard this kind of stuff before-"we are going to emphasize college productivity". Apple was a productive college player. How'd that work out?
Evening guys: If one actually reads the article carefully really the only thing that is going to change in the short term is the way the Giants stack their board. And that raises something that never really made a whole lot of sense from the previous regime. In the past couple of years Ross in particular was quoted a couple of times saying that in fact the Giants ranked players in rows as every team does but then he said that the Giants would have 32 guys in each row. Which sounds like they differentiated players by rounds and then ranked them within rounds. It will be interesting to see what Gettleman means by 'vertical and horizontal' which sounds a bit like 3-D chess!
That said I think people need to hold their water at least until we actually see the results. In fact if you look at the 5 Carolina drafts in DG's tenure they don't loo a whole lot unlike the Giants in the same period. They used 2 premium picks on OL, we had three; they did draft one LB with a premium pick (who was 7th on the team in tackles this fall); they had 2 players taken in that period go to Pro Bowls; we had two; they also got one starter out of their third-day picks in that period.
Bottom line is that if the Giants and DG luck out and hit some picks, especially the 2nd this year, he'll end up going down as a pretty good fix at GM. If he ain't lucky he'll end up being just another stupid Mara decision.
This is just another idiotic hot take from a faux draft guru.
The draft is not luck. Building a roster is not luck. If it was, we would see a revolving door of dominant teams around the league and that’s simply not the case.
It’s about having a vision for the team and finding players who fit that vision. It’s refreshing to have a GM with an actual plan.
The unnecessary insult dilutes your message.
'Gettleman changing everything in NYG draft process'... Â
Don't be surprised if some people are let go after the draft.
Quote:
A lot of people wanted everybody gone including the scouts. Imo, they have a ton of experience and connections that are extremely beneficial. They just needed to change how we evaluated players and what we emphasize. Gettleman has been killing it.
Don't be surprised if some people are let go after the draft.
Of course not. My post was about throwing the baby out with the bath water. The entire staff doesn't need to be blown up. I think the quote, "In order to make an omlete you have to crack a few eggs," is most appropriate.
Quote: Quote:
Reese didn’t spend enough time scouting college prospects, according to some people who work for the Giants.
Reese was a Giants scout before he rose through the ranks to top-executive status, but in recent years he increasingly distanced himself from his area of expertise. He assigned himself to only one college game in 2016 and only one in 2017 — Florida State at Louisville, to check out quarterback Lamar Jackson. There were some in the building who wondered why Reese did not at least drive down to Rutgers on game days to check out the Big Ten prospects on the field, or why Reese saw the need to watch a Giants walk-through on a Saturday when there were college games to see on various campuses.////
That surprised me too. Makes me wonder what the hell he was doing. That's supposed to be his busiest time of the year.
Anyone hear from rfflair recently on JR's immediate employment prospects?
Travis Beckum
Clint Sintim
JPP of TE's
Amukamara
Will Beatty
Larry Donnell
So many more.
To me heart matters infinitely more than measurables. If one guy has more raw talent opposite a guy with intense passion for the game, and he's technically sound but doesn't have a 50" vertical that the first guy has... you go with the latter every single time.
Kudos to Gettleman for bringing common sense back to the New York Giants. I have high hopes with news like this.
Ernie Accorsi didn't draft a single above-average LB in his time with the Giants, unless you believe Dhani Jones was above-average. Reese followed the same model with the same results.
Mike Lombardi is laughably bad. I safely ignore whatever he claims to know.
Quote:
how Reese changed the process from what was done during the Young/Accorsi days (or if he was running things the way EA was). Funny, EA could draft Linebackers, but he always had issues with Offensive Linemen, if I recall correctly.
Ernie Accorsi didn't draft a single above-average LB in his time with the Giants, unless you believe Dhani Jones was above-average. Reese followed the same model with the same results.
Yeah I’m not sure where the “Accorsi could draft LBs” line comes from.
Gerris Wilkinson...Reggie Torbor...Wes Mallard, Quincy Monk, Brandon Short, you mentioned Dhani Jones, Nick Greisen, Ryan Phillips
I’d say Accorsi sucked at drafting LBs. Thankfully we had a pro personnel guy named Gettleman on hand to find FAs like Antonio Pierce, Kawika Mitchell, Michael Boley (who on balance was eh, but was good during the 2011 SB season)
There was nothing wrong with the criteria but the execution was horrendous. Gettleman won’t be long for the job if his productive players are filled with passion and desire right up until they get run over by some other team’s DL
Mike Lombardi is laughably bad. I safely ignore whatever he claims to know.
He knew McAdoo was a terrible hire two years ago. And he know Patricia and McDaniels weren't coming here. His point was the Giants weren't reorganizing their structure - GM who acquires players, owner who hires coach - not that a new GM wouldn't try to put his stamp on things.
Lesson being :'pick higher.'
But lesson two (slightly better, Goff) looking for INTs and PDs...
Finally, for ALL defensive players ...you look for the outlier or indicator plays made
I.e. more than a handful of fumbles caused and recovered (even for DTs, for example)... Passes defended (even for DEs for example, tipped)...tackles behind the line... Sidelines.. In addition to height weight and tackles...and certainly over and above name of school.
Playmakers. Then. At lb...you have subsets based on the divergence of bigger and bigger OLs and quicker passing games. So pick your poison...more safety like or more able to take on huge O tackles.
Much better to spreadsheet all players ALL, not just leading or good schools, eligible at a position...
And All stats ALL.. and height weight and age etc...
Than look for outliers.. Passes caught... Not just yards per.... Ints per game averages...not just highlight hits... Etc..regardless of name, school, etc...then work from there ...including that stuff with a grain of salt... or not (school, hype, name..)
I’ve never understood scouts that obsess about 40 yard speed, how many bench presses, etc. By far the best indicator of future success is game performance.
No more stupid projects on this team.
Like, what, far less than 10% of eligible players or something like that.
And don't assume the combine list is purely rational.
If there was a purely rational metric to decide combine kids...... Any robot could run your draft as well....obviously it's not that simple.
So...if you only look at combine kids your already at a gigantic disadvantage.
'Gigantic' see what I did there
Lesson being :'pick higher.'
But lesson two (slightly better, Goff) looking for INTs and PDs...
Finally, for ALL defensive players ...you look for the outlier or indicator plays made
I.e. more than a handful of fumbles caused and recovered (even for DTs, for example)... Passes defended (even for DEs for example, tipped)...tackles behind the line... Sidelines.. In addition to height weight and tackles...and certainly over and above name of school.
Playmakers. Then. At lb...you have subsets based on the divergence of bigger and bigger OLs and quicker passing games. So pick your poison...more safety like or more able to take on huge O tackles.
True - but Accorsi helped build our SB teams with some great hits on mid-late round picks at other positions - Jacobs, Diehl, Tuck, Bradshaw, Cofield, Gibril Wilson - all solid starters or better for our SB teams
Point being, which is an aside to the overall discussion, outside of Armstead this team really hasn’t drafted a stud LB since Pepper Johnson in 86. Which is weird.
That was one of my first thoughts, and I really hope so. A tall guy with a cannon who doesn't know where the ball is going? Pass.
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we're not drafting Josh Allen?
That was one of my first thoughts, and I really hope so. A tall guy with a cannon who doesn't know where the ball is going? Pass.
At the same time maybe Baker Mayfield is a possibility.
Giants certainly haven't drafted well and I don't need a 32-team analysis to prove that. We have focused drafting along just a few key positions and left others to die on the vine. And to exacerbate the issue, we weren't all that good at drafting quality players at those key positions (DL, CB and WR). Meanwhile LB, OL, TE and RB have been abysmal.
We have been short for many years at just finding what I would say are "football players"...guys that have both talent and limitations, but somehow bring their football intelligence and desire to the field and minimize their limitations as best they can.
I was never really a David Diehl fan until I saw what a friggin' train-wreck Ereck Flowers is. I cannot believe any human being can get paid as a scout and say that James Brewer is our kind of guy. How does someone not realize that the league is moving towards faster Tight Ends that can create mismatches until 2017? At what point do you say we need somebody that can cover a Tight End like Jason Witten that plays in our division and draft an athletic Linebacker versus keeping Mark Herzlich on the roster?
DG we need you to help us...
Based on what? Rosen isn't a size/speed type prospect.
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with that this info does that mean Rosen is gonna get a few negative ticks?
Based on what? Rosen isn't a size/speed type prospect.
Some talking heads say he lacks a true dedication to the game ....
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In comment 13798167 MotownGIANTS said:
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with that this info does that mean Rosen is gonna get a few negative ticks?
Based on what? Rosen isn't a size/speed type prospect.
Some talking heads say he lacks a true dedication to the game ....
He will be thoroughly vetted at the Combine and during the NYG team visit. So will each top QB.
That said I think people need to hold their water at least until we actually see the results. In fact if you look at the 5 Carolina drafts in DG's tenure they don't loo a whole lot unlike the Giants in the same period. They used 2 premium picks on OL, we had three; they did draft one LB with a premium pick (who was 7th on the team in tackles this fall); they had 2 players taken in that period go to Pro Bowls; we had two; they also got one starter out of their third-day picks in that period.
Bottom line is that if the Giants and DG luck out and hit some picks, especially the 2nd this year, he'll end up going down as a pretty good fix at GM. If he ain't lucky he'll end up being just another stupid Mara decision.
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In comment 13798167 MotownGIANTS said:
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with that this info does that mean Rosen is gonna get a few negative ticks?
Based on what? Rosen isn't a size/speed type prospect.
Some talking heads say he lacks a true dedication to the game ....
Everyone knows its the talking heads that know how to evaluate player psychology
The NFL draft is a three or four year final results process to see results if he had changed more personnel then I could see a major shift in drafted guys. Now if he is going to be the final vote on or between player A and B he had better hope the information his scouts provides is correct or he really will be in the film room forever. From past experience people are almost always against immediate changes and lazy in performing new doctrines in a very short time frame. Evaluate the present system tweet it in the beginning and after a total system process run then make adjustments that bring people on board with your ideas. Nothing worse then having employees guessing what is he really looking for me to provide since we’ve done it this way for years.
I hear a big cheer for DG changing everything but the rankings of players on most boards remain quite close. As for draft experts they will also love or like the same players given a range of ten picks one way or the other. I’ll admit that we might not see any below 600 rated players drafted in the fifth or sixth round but it’s still a very high miss rate more than hit rate draft process. We could draft the top 10 range BPA in each round but that still does not mean three or four years from now all 6/7 players will still be on the roster or team assets.
Humans sing the praise for those who have done nothing yet because the voice is new but overtime the voice without true and real production will turn to cries of tears of frustration.
They both had one thing in common. They HATED football. I come from a family with a pro golfer, tennis player, 2 time Olympic medalist and a whole lot of just misses.
These two guys (both by marriage, the others are blood) are the only two who wouldn't allow for their profession talk during or after their playing days.
Had they been 4th round picks (which they should have been) they would have not have been busts. The talent and measurables were off the charts but their hearts were not in it. I'm talking all the way back to high school.
Gettleman has to know that many a measureable guy does not like the game. I'm two for two so I'm guessing there are a ton of them.
Homer that always reminds me of next door neighbor growing up. He had the size, talent and smarts to be an NFL player. He got a full ride at Penn State until his junior year he lost the drive to play ball. He transfered out on an academic scholarship and became a doctor
The NFL draft is a three or four year final results process to see results if he had changed more personnel then I could see a major shift in drafted guys. Now if he is going to be the final vote on or between player A and B he had better hope the information his scouts provides is correct or he really will be in the film room forever. From past experience people are almost always against immediate changes and lazy in performing new doctrines in a very short time frame. Evaluate the present system tweet it in the beginning and after a total system process run then make adjustments that bring people on board with your ideas. Nothing worse then having employees guessing what is he really looking for me to provide since we’ve done it this way for years.
I hear a big cheer for DG changing everything but the rankings of players on most boards remain quite close. As for draft experts they will also love or like the same players given a range of ten picks one way or the other. I’ll admit that we might not see any below 600 rated players drafted in the fifth or sixth round but it’s still a very high miss rate more than hit rate draft process. We could draft the top 10 range BPA in each round but that still does not mean three or four years from now all 6/7 players will still be on the roster or team assets.
Humans sing the praise for those who have done nothing yet because the voice is new but overtime the voice without true and real production will turn to cries of tears of frustration.
Must be a real drag for you to have to interact with humans so much
That said I think people need to hold their water at least until we actually see the results. In fact if you look at the 5 Carolina drafts in DG's tenure they don't loo a whole lot unlike the Giants in the same period. They used 2 premium picks on OL, we had three; they did draft one LB with a premium pick (who was 7th on the team in tackles this fall); they had 2 players taken in that period go to Pro Bowls; we had two; they also got one starter out of their third-day picks in that period.
Bottom line is that if the Giants and DG luck out and hit some picks, especially the 2nd this year, he'll end up going down as a pretty good fix at GM. If he ain't lucky he'll end up being just another stupid Mara decision.
Colin the article mentions changing the grading system metrics in addition to changing the way the board is stacked
That said I think people need to hold their water at least until we actually see the results. In fact if you look at the 5 Carolina drafts in DG's tenure they don't loo a whole lot unlike the Giants in the same period. They used 2 premium picks on OL, we had three; they did draft one LB with a premium pick (who was 7th on the team in tackles this fall); they had 2 players taken in that period go to Pro Bowls; we had two; they also got one starter out of their third-day picks in that period.
Bottom line is that if the Giants and DG luck out and hit some picks, especially the 2nd this year, he'll end up going down as a pretty good fix at GM. If he ain't lucky he'll end up being just another stupid Mara decision.
Sure you can "hit a HR" drafting those types of players- but the problem is that that type of player is quite often unwilling to put in anything more than what will maintain their current state- and is definitely not willing to go "all in" to get better.
In some ways, I think this is what Coughlin was referring to years ago about injuries being a mental thing. When you live off your talent, you often are not willing to go at less than 100% simply because you do not have the mental strength to push through unless you can physically dominate your opponent- and a player at 80% is just another guy- meaning you aren't going to beat your opponent.
Think of some of the end season articles and reports that came out- where we learned that Collins and DRC, in particular, had been gutting it out through difficult injuries. THAT is the player willing to leave it all out there.
While I do not have any inside knowledge of the injuries that Apple or Hart had, the questions that were raised by many inside and outside the team about their toughness and willingness to do what it took raises questions in my mind about how much they love the game- and whether they play the game because their natural physical skills let them play vs. working to be the best player they can be.
Of course, we all know that the hardest thing to measure in a player is their heart and passion for the game- too many prospects are trained in the draft prep to say and do the right things before the draft, so that it is difficult to get to what makes the guy tick until you get him on the practice field.
However, I think that, Gettleman is attempting to get the scouts to find out what makes the player tick and how much he WANTS to play in the NFL when they are assessing how the physical skills translate to the NFL.
Aren’t you the same clown who thought the Giants had an awesome draft last year?
That said I think people need to hold their water at least until we actually see the results. In fact if you look at the 5 Carolina drafts in DG's tenure they don't loo a whole lot unlike the Giants in the same period. They used 2 premium picks on OL, we had three; they did draft one LB with a premium pick (who was 7th on the team in tackles this fall); they had 2 players taken in that period go to Pro Bowls; we had two; they also got one starter out of their third-day picks in that period.
Bottom line is that if the Giants and DG luck out and hit some picks, especially the 2nd this year, he'll end up going down as a pretty good fix at GM. If he ain't lucky he'll end up being just another stupid Mara decision.
This is just another idiotic hot take from a faux draft guru.
The draft is not luck. Building a roster is not luck. If it was, we would see a revolving door of dominant teams around the league and that’s simply not the case.
It’s about having a vision for the team and finding players who fit that vision. It’s refreshing to have a GM with an actual plan.
Sure you can "hit a HR" drafting those types of players- but the problem is that that type of player is quite often unwilling to put in anything more than what will maintain their current state- and is definitely not willing to go "all in" to get better.
In some ways, I think this is what Coughlin was referring to years ago about injuries being a mental thing. When you live off your talent, you often are not willing to go at less than 100% simply because you do not have the mental strength to push through unless you can physically dominate your opponent- and a player at 80% is just another guy- meaning you aren't going to beat your opponent.
Think of some of the end season articles and reports that came out- where we learned that Collins and DRC, in particular, had been gutting it out through difficult injuries. THAT is the player willing to leave it all out there.
While I do not have any inside knowledge of the injuries that Apple or Hart had, the questions that were raised by many inside and outside the team about their toughness and willingness to do what it took raises questions in my mind about how much they love the game- and whether they play the game because their natural physical skills let them play vs. working to be the best player they can be.
Of course, we all know that the hardest thing to measure in a player is their heart and passion for the game- too many prospects are trained in the draft prep to say and do the right things before the draft, so that it is difficult to get to what makes the guy tick until you get him on the practice field.
However, I think that, Gettleman is attempting to get the scouts to find out what makes the player tick and how much he WANTS to play in the NFL when they are assessing how the physical skills translate to the NFL.
Great post.
Joey: DG took over an emerging team in Carolina whose best players - Cam Newton, Luke Kuechley, Jon Stewart, Thomas Davis, Greg Olsen, and Josh Norman were all pretty much in place. He certainly added some players but if you do an honest eval of the Panthers and Giants drafts 2013-2017 there isn't much to choose between the two.
Again I am not trying to sell DG short; he'll be a good GM. He's a good football guy who knows his stuff. And the fact is if he (we) hit on the 2nd pick we are likely in for another nice run; if he doesn't (and the odds are about 50-50) we are very likely looking at a stretch of .500 seasons. But that my friends is life in the NFL.
Joey: DG took over an emerging team in Carolina whose best players - Cam Newton, Luke Kuechley, Jon Stewart, Thomas Davis, Greg Olsen, and Josh Norman were all pretty much in place. He certainly added some players but if you do an honest eval of the Panthers and Giants drafts 2013-2017 there isn't much to choose between the two.
Again I am not trying to sell DG short; he'll be a good GM. He's a good football guy who knows his stuff. And the fact is if he (we) hit on the 2nd pick we are likely in for another nice run; if he doesn't (and the odds are about 50-50) we are very likely looking at a stretch of .500 seasons. But that my friends is life in the NFL.
colin, I do see limiting language in that article -- and it specifically references the way scouts are assigned and move around the country, and a checks and balances system for their evaluations that it is too late to implement this year. It also indicates that he is not going to do a complete overhaul this year. But it also has attributable quotes like:
and
Hey - look I respect your perspective colin. It may be true that i'm hearing what I want to hear, and Gettlemen is talking the way I'd like to hear him talk, and that your practical interpretation is for all intensive purposes correct. One thing is certainly true - the scouts can't go out very much anymore this year and use his metrics in the field on this year's prospects. There are physical and practical limits to what he can actually change right away. But it certainly sounds like he rolling up his sleeves and shaking a few of the scouts up from the grousing that came out of the scouts during the week through Tony Pauline.
He will make some changes this year based on his philosophy of drafting. I just don’t see him going into this draft with the same methods that Reese used, after saying he has a philosophical shift. It may not be as evident this draft, but I’m sure he doesn’t want to poo-poo this draft either if it means using the old system of grading.
The main thing is he is no longer discounting players that may not have all the measurables, but have intangibles that may also allow them to succeed. There’s a lot to be said for the mental aspect of the game and desire!
some of them may be unemployed. That is what I was hoping
for along with Ross. They couldn't do it before April...
So they get at least one more draft
to prove their worth. The alarming thing I read, was
in the 'old' system, the Giants had some players listed
as 'C' prospects by their scouts.
They were drafted elsewhere, and have been productive players in the league, as Gettleman observed, not good.
I’ve never understood scouts that obsess about 40 yard speed, how many bench presses, etc. By far the best indicator of future success is game performance.
No more stupid projects on this team.
The problem was in the execution. Spending draft choices on tweeners who didn't seem to fit anywhere, or assuming that a dope like our LT could be coached up despite the flaws in his game that big time D-1 coaching couldn't fix(you can read the pre-draft report on NFL.com. He still has the same technique problems). His problems were well-known- this is not on the scouts.
And we've heard this kind of stuff before-"we are going to emphasize college productivity". Apple was a productive college player. How'd that work out?
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Evening guys: If one actually reads the article carefully really the only thing that is going to change in the short term is the way the Giants stack their board. And that raises something that never really made a whole lot of sense from the previous regime. In the past couple of years Ross in particular was quoted a couple of times saying that in fact the Giants ranked players in rows as every team does but then he said that the Giants would have 32 guys in each row. Which sounds like they differentiated players by rounds and then ranked them within rounds. It will be interesting to see what Gettleman means by 'vertical and horizontal' which sounds a bit like 3-D chess!
That said I think people need to hold their water at least until we actually see the results. In fact if you look at the 5 Carolina drafts in DG's tenure they don't loo a whole lot unlike the Giants in the same period. They used 2 premium picks on OL, we had three; they did draft one LB with a premium pick (who was 7th on the team in tackles this fall); they had 2 players taken in that period go to Pro Bowls; we had two; they also got one starter out of their third-day picks in that period.
Bottom line is that if the Giants and DG luck out and hit some picks, especially the 2nd this year, he'll end up going down as a pretty good fix at GM. If he ain't lucky he'll end up being just another stupid Mara decision.
This is just another idiotic hot take from a faux draft guru.
The draft is not luck. Building a roster is not luck. If it was, we would see a revolving door of dominant teams around the league and that’s simply not the case.
It’s about having a vision for the team and finding players who fit that vision. It’s refreshing to have a GM with an actual plan.
The unnecessary insult dilutes your message.