That is his strength and a major reason they brought him in. He will still have an OC and perhaps over the next few years relinquishes playcalling. This situation occurs on many teams.
McAdoo or no McAdoo...I dont like it. We’ll see how it goes.
I’d be interested to know how many offensive coordinators turned head coaches actually do this. I’ve heard McCarthy does it, but he can probably call whatever he wants with Aaron Rodgers running around back there.
McAdoo or no McAdoo...I dont like it. We’ll see how it goes.
I’d be interested to know how many offensive coordinators turned head coaches actually do this. I’ve heard McCarthy does it, but he can probably call whatever he wants with Aaron Rodgers running around back there.
McAdoo's problem was not that he was calling plays -- it's that he was horrible at it -- then he made some BS moves that lost him the team and his DC and STC let him down in season 2
Shurmur has been HC before and called plays as HC before. He has called brilliant games as OC too. He is also bringing in another experienced HC as DC that has experienced success at DC at the highest level for three different teams
so what's the problem --
you can't logically connect McAdoo was a moron and called plays so the next coach who calls plays must be a moron too -- and there is no logical basis for making that statement
where Bill Walsh talked about how he handled play calling. Walsh was a proponent of scripting the first 25 plays to force coaches to stick with their game plans, and adjust as the game went on. They had some examples of head coaches working with the OC to call plays.
They gave this specific example:
Quote:
The Green Bay Packers call their plays with the offensive coordinator, Sherman Lewis, upstairs in a booth and with the head coach, Mike Holmgren, down on the sideline. They talk constantly via headsets. Holmgren makes the final decisions, but sometimes, Holmgren will tell Lewis to simply take over.
''We've worked together for 11 years; he knows how I think and I know how he thinks,'' Lewis said. ''You try to get into a rhythm during your play-calling.''
What does this have to do with anything? Holmgren was a Walsh disciple. Holmgren brought Shurmur to Cleveland in 2011 to in many ways bring the same system of playcalling that Holmgren ran in Green Bay and Seattle.
So I'm curious if Shurmur will be someone who will script his plays and open up the communications with his OC similar to what Holmgren did.
That said, I've never really been a fan of a head coach calling his own plays. McAdoo or no, I've always felt that a head coach is a CEO and needs to delegate to his assistants to stay on top of the full team. Now, there is something to be said if Del Rio is here that he's an experienced defensive coordinator, who has been a head coach for many years, so Shurmur can simply delegate control of the defense to Del Rio so he can focus on offense (think Mike Ditka and Buddy Ryan...but hopefully much less contentious).
Fassel used to change up who was calling plays based on the Giants offensive play and the amount of heat generated by the fans and press. In 2002 he buried Sean Payton and took over play calling duties and helped the Giants make the playoffs. Payton left after the season to go to Dallas. Fassel then flamed out in 2003 while Payton made Dallas into a dangerous team and then on to New Orleans.
where Bill Walsh talked about how he handled play calling. Walsh was a proponent of scripting the first 25 plays to force coaches to stick with their game plans, and adjust as the game went on. They had some examples of head coaches working with the OC to call plays.
They gave this specific example:
Quote:
The Green Bay Packers call their plays with the offensive coordinator, Sherman Lewis, upstairs in a booth and with the head coach, Mike Holmgren, down on the sideline. They talk constantly via headsets. Holmgren makes the final decisions, but sometimes, Holmgren will tell Lewis to simply take over.
''We've worked together for 11 years; he knows how I think and I know how he thinks,'' Lewis said. ''You try to get into a rhythm during your play-calling.''
What does this have to do with anything? Holmgren was a Walsh disciple. Holmgren brought Shurmur to Cleveland in 2011 to in many ways bring the same system of playcalling that Holmgren ran in Green Bay and Seattle.
So I'm curious if Shurmur will be someone who will script his plays and open up the communications with his OC similar to what Holmgren did.
That said, I've never really been a fan of a head coach calling his own plays. McAdoo or no, I've always felt that a head coach is a CEO and needs to delegate to his assistants to stay on top of the full team. Now, there is something to be said if Del Rio is here that he's an experienced defensive coordinator, who has been a head coach for many years, so Shurmur can simply delegate control of the defense to Del Rio so he can focus on offense (think Mike Ditka and Buddy Ryan...but hopefully much less contentious).
Fassel used to change up who was calling plays based on the Giants offensive play and the amount of heat generated by the fans and press. In 2002 he buried Sean Payton and took over play calling duties and helped the Giants make the playoffs. Payton left after the season to go to Dallas. Fassel then flamed out in 2003 while Payton made Dallas into a dangerous team and then on to New Orleans.
It will be interesting to watch how this goes. http://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/15/sports/the-abc-s-of-x-s-and-o-s-the-art-of-play-calling-in-the-nfl.html - ( New Window )
Worth mentioning on top of this that Andy Reid, whom Shurmur is directly on that coaching tree, also scripts his plays.
the business decision is on the part of the Giants. If they decide Eli is worth the salary/roster bonus, Eli's decision is whether he wants to continue playing football, and if not for the Giants, then asking to be traded/cut. If it boils down to a business decision for Eli, cut him. You don't want a player who is only going through the motions for the money. I wanted to hear about how Eli is a changed man. is he enthused to prove ownership wrong for benching him? Or is he disillusioned and debating whether to take Mara's money? MG seems to hint the latter. I want an Eli with renewed fire, not a guy putting in time til retirement.
Didn’t Shurmur call plays for the first year in CLE? Â
& then delegate to the OC for the second year? I’d eventually like to see the OC handle this duty, but the first year trying to implement a new offense, it makes sense.
In 2002 he buried Sean Payton and took over play calling duties and helped the Giants make the playoffs. Payton left after the season to go to Dallas. Fassel then flamed out in 2003 while Payton made Dallas into a dangerous team and then on to New Orleans.
Payton made Dallas a "dangerous team"???
He wasn't even an OC - he was a QB coach, and Dallas was 2nd in the division one year and 3rd two years he was there.
People continually overexaggerate the pelts of that team.
If we have a QB coach on the Giants and we finish in the bottom half of the division 2/3rds the time a guy is here - he's getting run out on a rail. When Payton does it, he made a team "dangerous"???
the business decision is on the part of the Giants. If they decide Eli is worth the salary/roster bonus, Eli's decision is whether he wants to continue playing football, and if not for the Giants, then asking to be traded/cut. If it boils down to a business decision for Eli, cut him. You don't want a player who is only going through the motions for the money. I wanted to hear about how Eli is a changed man. is he enthused to prove ownership wrong for benching him? Or is he disillusioned and debating whether to take Mara's money? MG seems to hint the latter. I want an Eli with renewed fire, not a guy putting in time til retirement.
fkap -- I don't see how you arrived at the conclusion that MG said or implied that Eli's business decision was about going through the motions for the money. He said that Eli will have to decide whether or not he could believe what he is being told by the front office after what happened this season
is his play-calling....but yea McAdoo couldn't do it so neither should he. Ask the Rams how they felt about McVay calling plays this year. Or Shanahan in SF (once he got a real QB). I'd say Minny's D, aside form last week, worked out pretty well with Zimmer calling plays. How about all those years BB called the Pats D? Don't take 1 of his biggest strengths away from him before even giving it a shot.
He is like the girl who is slim on the first date and quickly gets too fat and he really burned us bad. He fooled us and we should have known when his fat suit did not fit. Al least Shurmur will wear a suit that fits. Not all HCs who call plays are equal. As long as he is flexible and does not call out Eli or whoever for "sloppy QB Play", or give excuses for the O-line by describing their ineptitude as a "dirty pocket", then I will puke and shit my pants dirty regularly. I personally prefer an OC who calls the plays. But as we saw when TC was hear the HC has a hand in the plays that are run even when the OC is holding the glossy sheet, and our offense was more balanced with TC here who kept the Mad Mack in check. This is why Mara wanted to hire someone who was a head Coach and who ran an offense that was balanced and not a strict WCO. All teams use variations of the no huddle hurry up WCO at times in games and against certain defenses that do not rotate lineman, and that was a problem for Jacksonville. But they are not married to it like Mack was.
In 2002 he buried Sean Payton and took over play calling duties and helped the Giants make the playoffs. Payton left after the season to go to Dallas. Fassel then flamed out in 2003 while Payton made Dallas into a dangerous team and then on to New Orleans.
Payton made Dallas a "dangerous team"???
He wasn't even an OC - he was a QB coach, and Dallas was 2nd in the division one year and 3rd two years he was there.
People continually overexaggerate the pelts of that team.
If we have a QB coach on the Giants and we finish in the bottom half of the division 2/3rds the time a guy is here - he's getting run out on a rail. When Payton does it, he made a team "dangerous"???
gotta love this place Fats. Payton's shit Dallas offense was "dangerous" as QB coach, Spags is a great DC and should be made Head Coach. amazing
McAdoo traumatized the heck out of this fanbase. Â
People forget the success Fassel had when he took back playcalling duties in 2002. And they ignore that one of the knocks on Coughlin early on was the fact that he didn't call plays himself.
Shurmur has been a head coach before and knows what the position requires. I doubt he'll be overwhelmed the way McAdoo was.
Someone actually posted on a thread that if they get rid of Spags, who is going to keep players in line and playing hard.
And it was seriously posted.
I like Spags, and I side a lot of time with guys with pelts, but man, he has presided over so many statistically terrible defenses and gets a free pass. It is bizarre.
Someone actually posted on a thread that if they get rid of Spags, who is going to keep players in line and playing hard.
And it was seriously posted.
I like Spags, and I side a lot of time with guys with pelts, but man, he has presided over so many statistically terrible defenses and gets a free pass. It is bizarre.
yes I saw that post too. unbelievable.but if someone suggested Perry Fewell as HC or DefCo, who has the same # of rings without the historically bad defenses on his record, people here would have gone nuts.
the business decision is on the part of the Giants. If they decide Eli is worth the salary/roster bonus, Eli's decision is whether he wants to continue playing football, and if not for the Giants, then asking to be traded/cut. If it boils down to a business decision for Eli, cut him. You don't want a player who is only going through the motions for the money. I wanted to hear about how Eli is a changed man. is he enthused to prove ownership wrong for benching him? Or is he disillusioned and debating whether to take Mara's money? MG seems to hint the latter. I want an Eli with renewed fire, not a guy putting in time til retirement.
fkap -- I don't see how you arrived at the conclusion that MG said or implied that Eli's business decision was about going through the motions for the money. He said that Eli will have to decide whether or not he could believe what he is being told by the front office after what happened this season
I have maintained this all along. We have a bunch of People are acting like they KNOW what is going to happen. They don't, fuck, Eli doesn't know yet. It all depends on if the Giants take a QB at 2.
If they take a QB at 2, it is assuredly unlikely a romantic ending for Eli. Eli would need to play lights out to keep his job. Eli replaced Warner at 5-4 and then played historically awful and kept the job. I hope they fix the roster, and Eli wins his 3rd superbowl. It is FAR more likely we field a mediocre team next year. We will see bad Eli and good Eli. If the record is less than .500 at the midway point and we have seen some bad Eli at least half of the fan base is going to be screaming for the shiny new toy on the bench. The writers will be on the story starting at Shurmur's first press conference and it will only get worse. After a few/couple of months of that, soul searching by everyone involved, what everyone says right now, might not be what they eventually decide to do.
I think this makes it more likely that a position coach like DeFilippo will be the OC. I can't see an established OC coming here if they aren't going to be able to call plays.
He already has HC experience so he knows what to expect and I'd rather have someone like him calling plays who has done it well before than him bringing in someone potentially inexperienced. And I'm even more for it if he does get Del Rio as DC. With all the experience Del Rio has, he won't have to worry about that side of the ball much at all and can really focus a lot of his attention on the offense.
Shurmur has enough to do coming to a new organization,
and try to clean up the carnage of last season around here.
He may decide to call plays the first year, but I would like too him focus on being the 'CEO' of the team.
That's what the GM said he is looking for here.
We'll see how this shakes out.
He did this in Philly and im half expecting him to bring someone there with him that hes familiar with - Duce Staley
I’d be interested to know how many offensive coordinators turned head coaches actually do this. I’ve heard McCarthy does it, but he can probably call whatever he wants with Aaron Rodgers running around back there.
I’d be interested to know how many offensive coordinators turned head coaches actually do this. I’ve heard McCarthy does it, but he can probably call whatever he wants with Aaron Rodgers running around back there.
yeah, and we have Eli.
You're a disaster.
Shurmur has been HC before and called plays as HC before. He has called brilliant games as OC too. He is also bringing in another experienced HC as DC that has experienced success at DC at the highest level for three different teams
so what's the problem --
you can't logically connect McAdoo was a moron and called plays so the next coach who calls plays must be a moron too -- and there is no logical basis for making that statement
They gave this specific example:
''We've worked together for 11 years; he knows how I think and I know how he thinks,'' Lewis said. ''You try to get into a rhythm during your play-calling.''
What does this have to do with anything? Holmgren was a Walsh disciple. Holmgren brought Shurmur to Cleveland in 2011 to in many ways bring the same system of playcalling that Holmgren ran in Green Bay and Seattle.
So I'm curious if Shurmur will be someone who will script his plays and open up the communications with his OC similar to what Holmgren did.
That said, I've never really been a fan of a head coach calling his own plays. McAdoo or no, I've always felt that a head coach is a CEO and needs to delegate to his assistants to stay on top of the full team. Now, there is something to be said if Del Rio is here that he's an experienced defensive coordinator, who has been a head coach for many years, so Shurmur can simply delegate control of the defense to Del Rio so he can focus on offense (think Mike Ditka and Buddy Ryan...but hopefully much less contentious).
Fassel used to change up who was calling plays based on the Giants offensive play and the amount of heat generated by the fans and press. In 2002 he buried Sean Payton and took over play calling duties and helped the Giants make the playoffs. Payton left after the season to go to Dallas. Fassel then flamed out in 2003 while Payton made Dallas into a dangerous team and then on to New Orleans.
It will be interesting to watch how this goes.
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/15/sports/the-abc-s-of-x-s-and-o-s-the-art-of-play-calling-in-the-nfl.html - ( New Window )
They gave this specific example:
Quote:
The Green Bay Packers call their plays with the offensive coordinator, Sherman Lewis, upstairs in a booth and with the head coach, Mike Holmgren, down on the sideline. They talk constantly via headsets. Holmgren makes the final decisions, but sometimes, Holmgren will tell Lewis to simply take over.
''We've worked together for 11 years; he knows how I think and I know how he thinks,'' Lewis said. ''You try to get into a rhythm during your play-calling.''
What does this have to do with anything? Holmgren was a Walsh disciple. Holmgren brought Shurmur to Cleveland in 2011 to in many ways bring the same system of playcalling that Holmgren ran in Green Bay and Seattle.
So I'm curious if Shurmur will be someone who will script his plays and open up the communications with his OC similar to what Holmgren did.
That said, I've never really been a fan of a head coach calling his own plays. McAdoo or no, I've always felt that a head coach is a CEO and needs to delegate to his assistants to stay on top of the full team. Now, there is something to be said if Del Rio is here that he's an experienced defensive coordinator, who has been a head coach for many years, so Shurmur can simply delegate control of the defense to Del Rio so he can focus on offense (think Mike Ditka and Buddy Ryan...but hopefully much less contentious).
Fassel used to change up who was calling plays based on the Giants offensive play and the amount of heat generated by the fans and press. In 2002 he buried Sean Payton and took over play calling duties and helped the Giants make the playoffs. Payton left after the season to go to Dallas. Fassel then flamed out in 2003 while Payton made Dallas into a dangerous team and then on to New Orleans.
It will be interesting to watch how this goes. http://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/15/sports/the-abc-s-of-x-s-and-o-s-the-art-of-play-calling-in-the-nfl.html - ( New Window )
Worth mentioning on top of this that Andy Reid, whom Shurmur is directly on that coaching tree, also scripts his plays.
uh, no.
the business decision is on the part of the Giants. If they decide Eli is worth the salary/roster bonus, Eli's decision is whether he wants to continue playing football, and if not for the Giants, then asking to be traded/cut. If it boils down to a business decision for Eli, cut him. You don't want a player who is only going through the motions for the money. I wanted to hear about how Eli is a changed man. is he enthused to prove ownership wrong for benching him? Or is he disillusioned and debating whether to take Mara's money? MG seems to hint the latter. I want an Eli with renewed fire, not a guy putting in time til retirement.
Payton made Dallas a "dangerous team"???
He wasn't even an OC - he was a QB coach, and Dallas was 2nd in the division one year and 3rd two years he was there.
People continually overexaggerate the pelts of that team.
If we have a QB coach on the Giants and we finish in the bottom half of the division 2/3rds the time a guy is here - he's getting run out on a rail. When Payton does it, he made a team "dangerous"???
uh, no.
the business decision is on the part of the Giants. If they decide Eli is worth the salary/roster bonus, Eli's decision is whether he wants to continue playing football, and if not for the Giants, then asking to be traded/cut. If it boils down to a business decision for Eli, cut him. You don't want a player who is only going through the motions for the money. I wanted to hear about how Eli is a changed man. is he enthused to prove ownership wrong for benching him? Or is he disillusioned and debating whether to take Mara's money? MG seems to hint the latter. I want an Eli with renewed fire, not a guy putting in time til retirement.
fkap -- I don't see how you arrived at the conclusion that MG said or implied that Eli's business decision was about going through the motions for the money. He said that Eli will have to decide whether or not he could believe what he is being told by the front office after what happened this season
Quote:
In 2002 he buried Sean Payton and took over play calling duties and helped the Giants make the playoffs. Payton left after the season to go to Dallas. Fassel then flamed out in 2003 while Payton made Dallas into a dangerous team and then on to New Orleans.
Payton made Dallas a "dangerous team"???
He wasn't even an OC - he was a QB coach, and Dallas was 2nd in the division one year and 3rd two years he was there.
People continually overexaggerate the pelts of that team.
If we have a QB coach on the Giants and we finish in the bottom half of the division 2/3rds the time a guy is here - he's getting run out on a rail. When Payton does it, he made a team "dangerous"???
gotta love this place Fats. Payton's shit Dallas offense was "dangerous" as QB coach, Spags is a great DC and should be made Head Coach. amazing
Shurmur has been a head coach before and knows what the position requires. I doubt he'll be overwhelmed the way McAdoo was.
uh, no.
Someone actually posted on a thread that if they get rid of Spags, who is going to keep players in line and playing hard.
And it was seriously posted.
I like Spags, and I side a lot of time with guys with pelts, but man, he has presided over so many statistically terrible defenses and gets a free pass. It is bizarre.
Someone actually posted on a thread that if they get rid of Spags, who is going to keep players in line and playing hard.
And it was seriously posted.
I like Spags, and I side a lot of time with guys with pelts, but man, he has presided over so many statistically terrible defenses and gets a free pass. It is bizarre.
yes I saw that post too. unbelievable.but if someone suggested Perry Fewell as HC or DefCo, who has the same # of rings without the historically bad defenses on his record, people here would have gone nuts.
Quote:
a 'business decision' to make?
uh, no.
the business decision is on the part of the Giants. If they decide Eli is worth the salary/roster bonus, Eli's decision is whether he wants to continue playing football, and if not for the Giants, then asking to be traded/cut. If it boils down to a business decision for Eli, cut him. You don't want a player who is only going through the motions for the money. I wanted to hear about how Eli is a changed man. is he enthused to prove ownership wrong for benching him? Or is he disillusioned and debating whether to take Mara's money? MG seems to hint the latter. I want an Eli with renewed fire, not a guy putting in time til retirement.
fkap -- I don't see how you arrived at the conclusion that MG said or implied that Eli's business decision was about going through the motions for the money. He said that Eli will have to decide whether or not he could believe what he is being told by the front office after what happened this season
I have maintained this all along. We have a bunch of People are acting like they KNOW what is going to happen. They don't, fuck, Eli doesn't know yet. It all depends on if the Giants take a QB at 2.
If they take a QB at 2, it is assuredly unlikely a romantic ending for Eli. Eli would need to play lights out to keep his job. Eli replaced Warner at 5-4 and then played historically awful and kept the job. I hope they fix the roster, and Eli wins his 3rd superbowl. It is FAR more likely we field a mediocre team next year. We will see bad Eli and good Eli. If the record is less than .500 at the midway point and we have seen some bad Eli at least half of the fan base is going to be screaming for the shiny new toy on the bench. The writers will be on the story starting at Shurmur's first press conference and it will only get worse. After a few/couple of months of that, soul searching by everyone involved, what everyone says right now, might not be what they eventually decide to do.
Had 3 different type OCs to work for and did very well.
In Philly now, he has former Bills 'great', Frank Reich.
He sits up in the booth, but Pederson calls the plays.
and try to clean up the carnage of last season around here.
He may decide to call plays the first year, but I would like too him focus on being the 'CEO' of the team.
That's what the GM said he is looking for here.
We'll see how this shakes out.
Have some of you fuckers just started following the NFL?
What's next, Shurmur is going to coach from the skybox??
Have some of you fuckers just started following the NFL?
What's next, Shurmur is going to coach from the skybox??
HAHA! FMIC, I just spit out my beer. That’s funny shit man. With your DG postings you been having yourself a good offseason. So kudos to you!
Have some of you fuckers just started following the NFL?
What's next, Shurmur is going to coach from the skybox??
No, from the MetLife blimp - he wants a true birds-eye view of the game.