expect many defensive breakdowns the first half of the year. I remember the last time they switched and it took a while to adapt. Need different types of players and the ones they have will need to learn different position fundamentals. Once they do grasp it it will be a better scheme.
if he runs that 1 gap style. The nose will have to 2 gap but that is it and we know Snacks can handle that. It isn't the label of the defense, it is the players. We need LBs regardless of the label.
RE: With the current group how is that possible? Â
Karlos Dansby was with Bettcher last year, and even though he’s 36 had a decent year. He could provide leadership at one inside spot. Avery Williamson of the Titans is another possibility. As far as the other outside spot. Barkevuous Mingo and Jeremy Attachou are available.
Every time this 3-4 issue has come up, I have suggested that JPP could be the rush LB. He has experience dropping into coverage and his bad hand would be less of an issue at LB. yes, I don’t really care that he might have some trouble catching the ball.
Imagine a 3 man front with both Vernon and JPP standing up on the edge. QB won’t be able to figure out who is coming and who is dropping in coverage.
and more about adopting a defense to the current rosters strengths.
I am excited to see what he can do with the current roster and hopefully add a couple of LB's in
Karlos Dansby was with Bettcher last year, and even though he’s 36 had a decent year. He could provide leadership at one inside spot. Avery Williamson of the Titans is another possibility. As far as the other outside spot. Barkevuous Mingo and Jeremy Attachou are available.
Kevin Minter would also be a good fit. He had 2 really strong years in 15’ and 16’ as an ILB in Bettchers system, and wasn’t as productive this year in the Bengals 4-3. He’d be a good value signing considering the Giants don’t have a ton of cap space to fix all of these holes in the roster.
I think he’d be an OLB in the 3-4. His scouting report coming out said his best fit is as an OLB in the 3-4. Plus, he has played standing up a ton the last 2 years and has show he can drop into coverage at times.
Giants should look for a big body to play 34 DE in the draft or FA. Da’Shawn Hand is a guy I like in RD3-4. Did well at the senior bowl and also FWIW said it would be his dream to play for the Giants as he grew up a Giants fan despite being from philly.
is that both Shurmur and Bettcher modify the scheme to fit the strengths of the players. I think this approach, more than anything else, will help turn this team around.
but if his rep is accurate, Bettcher will take what he has tweet it to fit what people can do and make the defense work the way he wants. (Ex: keep JPP and Vernon away from covering TEs down the field to 3rd down backs finning across the formation). Get them attacking off the edge, that could be very effective.
and more about adopting a defense to the current rosters strengths.
I am excited to see what he can do with the current roster and hopefully add a couple of LB's in
I agree..Bettcher will play to the roster talent. Most of the time he'll be in a nickel so it will be a matter of spacing of the four up front and whether the ends have their hand in the dirt or standing. My guess Vernon will be that Hybrid in base 3-4 (run situations) with Snacks NT (w/one gap not 2 rules) and JPP/Tomlinson? 3 Tech ends. Vernon played end standing a lot of the time last year anyway. As far as ILB's in a 3-4....Goodson will have to stay healthy and DG's going to have to find another durable inside LB to make it work in base situations. Maybe Munson will be up to the task? Don't forget if its a 3-4 base you're looking at it being deployed only 25-30% of the time. I'd be more interested in how he'll deploy the nickel and dime rather than 3-4 vs. 4-3.
He did play some at Alabama. NT is so crucial in the 3-4 though that it may make more sense to use him there if he can handle it. He'd still get plenty of snaps spelling Snacks and we'd avoid disaster in case of injury.
Would love to learn from him.. But I have to disagree with one thing here. The Honey Badger and Landon are completely different players. I don't want to see Collins in the slot and I think that's where Mathieu excels.
We will need a safety that's capable of coming down in the slot. I read that's an important piece to Bettchers Defense. Guys like Mathieu and Buddha.
JPP makes sense as a 3-4 DE who flips to 4-2 DE in the nickel.
He could carry 285-290 easily (if he doesn’t already) and he’s always been stout vs the run even when his pass rush has floundered.
Yes, a bit of a waste for what we’re paying him but these kinds of pains are expected when you go from 4-3 to 3-4.
If it proves to be a significant waste and looks like a square peg round hole situation, we bite the bullet and cut JPP next year. Things may go in that direction even with JPP in a 4-3 - he was a non-factor last year.
JPP makes sense as a 3-4 DE who flips to 4-2 DE in the nickel.
He could carry 285-290 easily (if he doesn’t already) and he’s always been stout vs the run even when his pass rush has floundered.
Yes, a bit of a waste for what we’re paying him but these kinds of pains are expected when you go from 4-3 to 3-4.
If it proves to be a significant waste and looks like a square peg round hole situation, we bite the bullet and cut JPP next year. Things may go in that direction even with JPP in a 4-3 - he was a non-factor last year.
The contract is a sunk cost at this point - all that should matter is playing him in a spot where he will be most effective.
I tend to think his body type is better suited to be a 3-4 DE - but if Bettcher sees him as a 3-4 standup edge rusher, I'll trust his judgement.
Lotuleles younger brother is in the draft. All 320lbs. 3-5-0 techs multiple dl like Harrison possibly.
Thanks, didn't know that. I'll have to take a look at him.
Vita Vea is one of my favorites but I think I have a soft spot for these kind of guys. Danny Shelton was another one I was really high on. Just love their effort.
I don't know what JPP's actual playing weight was this year, but if he's truly ~280 there's no way he's playing 3-4 OLB at that weight. He would have to lose about 15lbs.
Most 3-4 edge rushers are around ~260
That's why I think he'd make more sense as a DE - but I'll trust the coaches here.
3-4 Edge Rusher, whatever it is we have the right coach calling the shots. Bettcher has Chandler Jones playing better then he has ever played even with losing the big man Calais Campbell to the Jags. We would also have a much better Nose Tackle in Snacks then Arizona has in Peters
RE: With the current group how is that possible? Â
Regarding numbers 8 and 9 on your list, you know that's not the BBI way. But I agree that a switch to the "new 3-4" is not as far-fetched as many would believe.
The Giants need to add an edge rusher or two in the draft Â
1. Most teams play no more then 30% in a “base” defense, most defenses are nickel/dime sub packages
2. Vernon can easily play OLB, Kenned OLB, Snacks NT. JP could slim down to 260 and play OLB or stay as is and play DE.
3. Bet there’s 3-4 is predicated on one gape and attack, not a traditional 3-4 two gap of the 80s
4. This Defense has been awful for years with one blip in 2016 so why not change it up.
5. Free Agency and the draft can quickly change what he personnel looks like
6. Tomlinson can easily play 3-4 DE
7. Goodson would be a better 3-4 ILB with less ground to cover
8. If you cannot explain why the team couldn’t play 3-4 please avoid throwing out a simple comment that they cannot do it.
9. Learn football
Agree on all points. It won’t be difficult to adjust to 3-4. I think we lose sight that we’ll be in nickel the majority of the time. So the questions should be who’ll be in the secondary..and what the rotation will be on the front four/five and the pressure packs.
that we have ZERO idea what kind of defense they will run. It might be a 3-4 or it might be a 4-3. If its a 3-4 is it a one gap system or a 2 gap system. And they wont be in a 3-4 most of the time anyway since most teams play 3 wides 50% of the time. You might see 3,4,or 5 guys on the line at any point in time but they might rush any combination of players..
So what the system is called to an extent really doesnt matter.
Now of the the KEY mistakes BBI keeps making is only thinking about the starting 11 on defense. I see very few people talking about the depth necessary to play a 3-4. A back up NT.. additional LB's, Possibly another safety who might be a hybrid LB..
All these things have to be taken into account.
That being said.. I dont care what they call it.. as long as it works.
Vita Vea would be a great backup NT, but he's likely to go by Rd. 2, Â
that we have ZERO idea what kind of defense they will run. It might be a 3-4 or it might be a 4-3. If its a 3-4 is it a one gap system or a 2 gap system. And they wont be in a 3-4 most of the time anyway since most teams play 3 wides 50% of the time. You might see 3,4,or 5 guys on the line at any point in time but they might rush any combination of players..
So what the system is called to an extent really doesnt matter.
Now of the the KEY mistakes BBI keeps making is only thinking about the starting 11 on defense. I see very few people talking about the depth necessary to play a 3-4. A back up NT.. additional LB's, Possibly another safety who might be a hybrid LB..
All these things have to be taken into account.
That being said.. I dont care what they call it.. as long as it works.
Depth is a necessity in any scheme. It's not exclusive. They've had severe lack of roster depth while running a 4-3 as well. A real NT is hard to find. Even among big men it's an incredibly demanding role to fill. A lot of teams use the 3-4 base and don't have a starter as good as Damon Harrison there.
vernon moves to OLB?
vernon moves to OLB?
Yes.
That makes no sense. You need bigger lineman up front in a 3-4.
Every time this 3-4 issue has come up, I have suggested that JPP could be the rush LB. He has experience dropping into coverage and his bad hand would be less of an issue at LB. yes, I don’t really care that he might have some trouble catching the ball.
Imagine a 3 man front with both Vernon and JPP standing up on the edge. QB won’t be able to figure out who is coming and who is dropping in coverage.
Why? He was a beast with the Jets.
I am excited to see what he can do with the current roster and hopefully add a couple of LB's in
He was the best nose tackle in football in the 3-4 with the Jets.
Kevin Minter would also be a good fit. He had 2 really strong years in 15’ and 16’ as an ILB in Bettchers system, and wasn’t as productive this year in the Bengals 4-3. He’d be a good value signing considering the Giants don’t have a ton of cap space to fix all of these holes in the roster.
I think he’d be an OLB in the 3-4. His scouting report coming out said his best fit is as an OLB in the 3-4. Plus, he has played standing up a ton the last 2 years and has show he can drop into coverage at times.
Giants should look for a big body to play 34 DE in the draft or FA. Da’Shawn Hand is a guy I like in RD3-4. Did well at the senior bowl and also FWIW said it would be his dream to play for the Giants as he grew up a Giants fan despite being from philly.
Quote:
to OLB not Vernon.
That makes no sense. You need bigger lineman up front in a 3-4.
You’re going to have Snacks and Tomlinson
I am excited to see what he can do with the current roster and hopefully add a couple of LB's in
I agree..Bettcher will play to the roster talent. Most of the time he'll be in a nickel so it will be a matter of spacing of the four up front and whether the ends have their hand in the dirt or standing. My guess Vernon will be that Hybrid in base 3-4 (run situations) with Snacks NT (w/one gap not 2 rules) and JPP/Tomlinson? 3 Tech ends. Vernon played end standing a lot of the time last year anyway. As far as ILB's in a 3-4....Goodson will have to stay healthy and DG's going to have to find another durable inside LB to make it work in base situations. Maybe Munson will be up to the task? Don't forget if its a 3-4 base you're looking at it being deployed only 25-30% of the time. I'd be more interested in how he'll deploy the nickel and dime rather than 3-4 vs. 4-3.
We will need a safety that's capable of coming down in the slot. I read that's an important piece to Bettchers Defense. Guys like Mathieu and Buddha.
Quote:
In comment 13809989 bluepepper said:
Quote:
to OLB not Vernon.
That makes no sense. You need bigger lineman up front in a 3-4.
You’re going to have Snacks and Tomlinson
You need one more. And Vernon’s not “big.”
I could see Moss putting up 5-8 sacks next season in that role under Bettcher.
He could carry 285-290 easily (if he doesn’t already) and he’s always been stout vs the run even when his pass rush has floundered.
Yes, a bit of a waste for what we’re paying him but these kinds of pains are expected when you go from 4-3 to 3-4.
If it proves to be a significant waste and looks like a square peg round hole situation, we bite the bullet and cut JPP next year. Things may go in that direction even with JPP in a 4-3 - he was a non-factor last year.
He could carry 285-290 easily (if he doesn’t already) and he’s always been stout vs the run even when his pass rush has floundered.
Yes, a bit of a waste for what we’re paying him but these kinds of pains are expected when you go from 4-3 to 3-4.
If it proves to be a significant waste and looks like a square peg round hole situation, we bite the bullet and cut JPP next year. Things may go in that direction even with JPP in a 4-3 - he was a non-factor last year.
The contract is a sunk cost at this point - all that should matter is playing him in a spot where he will be most effective.
I tend to think his body type is better suited to be a 3-4 DE - but if Bettcher sees him as a 3-4 standup edge rusher, I'll trust his judgement.
Thanks, didn't know that. I'll have to take a look at him.
Vita Vea is one of my favorites but I think I have a soft spot for these kind of guys. Danny Shelton was another one I was really high on. Just love their effort.
Most 3-4 edge rushers are around ~260
That's why I think he'd make more sense as a DE - but I'll trust the coaches here.
vernon moves to OLB?
1. Most teams play no more then 30% in a “base” defense, most defenses are nickel/dime sub packages
2. Vernon can easily play OLB, Kenned OLB, Snacks NT. JP could slim down to 260 and play OLB or stay as is and play DE.
3. Bet there’s 3-4 is predicated on one gape and attack, not a traditional 3-4 two gap of the 80s
4. This Defense has been awful for years with one blip in 2016 so why not change it up.
5. Free Agency and the draft can quickly change what he personnel looks like
6. Tomlinson can easily play 3-4 DE
7. Goodson would be a better 3-4 ILB with less ground to cover
8. If you cannot explain why the team couldn’t play 3-4 please avoid throwing out a simple comment that they cannot do it.
9. Learn football
Quote:
serious question
vernon moves to OLB?
Why would it not be possible?
1. Most teams play no more then 30% in a “base” defense, most defenses are nickel/dime sub packages
2. Vernon can easily play OLB, Kenned OLB, Snacks NT. JP could slim down to 260 and play OLB or stay as is and play DE.
3. Bet there’s 3-4 is predicated on one gape and attack, not a traditional 3-4 two gap of the 80s
4. This Defense has been awful for years with one blip in 2016 so why not change it up.
5. Free Agency and the draft can quickly change what he personnel looks like
6. Tomlinson can easily play 3-4 DE
7. Goodson would be a better 3-4 ILB with less ground to cover
8. If you cannot explain why the team couldn’t play 3-4 please avoid throwing out a simple comment that they cannot do it.
9. Learn football
Also maybe JPP and Vernon won't need to play 95%+ of snaps and they can actually be effective.
Quote:
serious question
vernon moves to OLB?
Why would it not be possible?
1. Most teams play no more then 30% in a “base” defense, most defenses are nickel/dime sub packages
2. Vernon can easily play OLB, Kenned OLB, Snacks NT. JP could slim down to 260 and play OLB or stay as is and play DE.
3. Bet there’s 3-4 is predicated on one gape and attack, not a traditional 3-4 two gap of the 80s
4. This Defense has been awful for years with one blip in 2016 so why not change it up.
5. Free Agency and the draft can quickly change what he personnel looks like
6. Tomlinson can easily play 3-4 DE
7. Goodson would be a better 3-4 ILB with less ground to cover
8. If you cannot explain why the team couldn’t play 3-4 please avoid throwing out a simple comment that they cannot do it.
9. Learn football
Agree on all points. It won’t be difficult to adjust to 3-4. I think we lose sight that we’ll be in nickel the majority of the time. So the questions should be who’ll be in the secondary..and what the rotation will be on the front four/five and the pressure packs.
So what the system is called to an extent really doesnt matter.
Now of the the KEY mistakes BBI keeps making is only thinking about the starting 11 on defense. I see very few people talking about the depth necessary to play a 3-4. A back up NT.. additional LB's, Possibly another safety who might be a hybrid LB..
All these things have to be taken into account.
That being said.. I dont care what they call it.. as long as it works.
So what the system is called to an extent really doesnt matter.
Now of the the KEY mistakes BBI keeps making is only thinking about the starting 11 on defense. I see very few people talking about the depth necessary to play a 3-4. A back up NT.. additional LB's, Possibly another safety who might be a hybrid LB..
All these things have to be taken into account.
That being said.. I dont care what they call it.. as long as it works.
Depth is a necessity in any scheme. It's not exclusive. They've had severe lack of roster depth while running a 4-3 as well. A real NT is hard to find. Even among big men it's an incredibly demanding role to fill. A lot of teams use the 3-4 base and don't have a starter as good as Damon Harrison there.