when Pagano purged his staff after 2016 season. Reason was that the OL didn't progress. Anyone have insight into the Colts OL personnel and stats. From the little I've read, they had revolving personnel at C, RG, and RT due to injuries (Hunter may feel right at home here) and Castonzo and Mewhort on the left side. Did they have any good talent?
Lots of short (1-3 year) stints as OL coach, very similar in that regard to his fathers career (minus his fathers HC career).
Not prejudging, just that with that AND out of football in 2017, just seems a meh hire.
That said, I hope he does a great job fitting players and scheme together to let us score 30-40 each game with the weapons Reese left us( the very small upside of ignoring OL and LB).
The assistant OL coach for the Colts who stunk, then left the browns after one year, then out of the league.
Not exactly an up and comer.
Fair enough, just was curious if you were hoping/expecting someone else. The Browns did have a solid OL (ran for 4.9 ypc) even after losing Mack, Bitonio and Schwartz.
Our HC specifically said he wanted an OC that had experience working with a QB.
Out beat writers are the only people mentioning Duce. Which they've yet to break a single hire since Gettleman has been here. From the GM, to the HC, to DC & position coaches. The news has all been broken by non Giants writers.
The guy was out of the league last year. What took so long to announce Â
be oking Line coaches if he was still considering another gig and I gotta believe these choices are being run by the new OC. Plus DeFillipo has a great deal of QB coaching experience and New York Giants past ties. We should know by this time next week if it doesn't leak beforehand.
when he was asked about filling out the staff after his press conference.
"There's other guys we're looking at outside the building that are, No. 1, career coaches, outstanding teachers, communicators. So we're looking for those type people. Some of them are currently not quite available, but we'll make sure we get a staff full of guys that can inspire our players."
We don’t have an OC yet... however, we are hiring offensive position coaches that the OC would have input on..
So, we must have our OC, but they are still coaching... so it’s gotta be DeFill right?
It's not like the OC is the position coach's boss just because he's directly above him in the hierarchy. The OC is a strategist, the position coach is a teacher. It's not like the position coach is feeding the OC (or DC for that matter) information and analysis for the OC to use. You could have a DC who is a horrible teacher but great at his job and a position coach who doesn't know chess from checkers, but is a great teacher.
which is a relatively rare feat for OL coaches. Over those 7 years the Chargers won their division 4 times and came in 2nd twice. They were a top 5 offense every year except 1 (Turner's final year). So they were a winning team.
In terms of personnel, those years were the tail end of LDT and then the beginning of the Ryan Matthews era. Their OL mainstays over those years were:
LT Marcus McNeil (2nd round pick in '06, made pro bowl first 2 years)
LG Kris Dielman (undrafted in '03, made pro bowl each year '07-10)
C Nick Hardwick (3rd round pick in '04, made pro bowl in '06)
RG Luis Vazquez (3rd round pick in '09, made pro bowl in '13)
RT Jeromey Clary (6th round pick in '06)
Will dive into his other stops shortly. I'm pretty sure CLE had a solid OL when Shurmur was there. In Indy I know they did a terrible job surround Luck with good personnel and had a few bad draft picks.
when Pagano purged his staff after 2016 season. Reason was that the OL didn't progress. Anyone have insight into the Colts OL personnel and stats. From the little I've read, they had revolving personnel at C, RG, and RT due to injuries (Hunter may feel right at home here) and Castonzo and Mewhort on the left side. Did they have any good talent?
I've lived in Indy since 89. The GM before Ballard (his name escapes me, but he came from Philly) made some very Reese-like choices that didn't work out. That, coupled with injuries, has led to the local shit show.
2018-Present: Offensive Line Coach, New York Giants
2016: Offensive Line Coach, Cleveland Browns
2015: Offensive Line Coach, Indianapolis Colts
2013-2014: Assistant Offensive Line Coach, Indianapolis Colts
2012: Offensive Coordinator/Offensive Line Coach, San Diego Chargers
2007-2011: Offensive Line Coach, San Diego Chargers
2006: Assistant Offensive Line Coach, San Diego Chargers
2002-2005: Offensive Line Coach, University of North Carolina
2000-2001: Offensive Coordinator, Indiana University
1999: Assistant Head Coach/Interim Head Coach, Louisiana State University
1995-1998: Offensive Line Coach, Louisiana State University
1994: Offensive Line Coach, Vanderbilt University
1991-1993: Offensive Tackles/Tight Ends Coach, Vanderbilt University
1987-1990: Offensive Line Coach, University of Akron
1986: Offensive Line Coach, Indiana University of Pennsylvania
1985: Offensive Line Coach, Columbia University
1983-1984: Offensive Line Coach, University of Pittsburgh
1982: Outside Linebackers Coach/Strength Coach, College of William and Mary
Pro Experience: None
Collegiate Experience: Linebacker, Northwestern University
Born July 8, 1959
...for what right now is a critical position group in flux for the Giants. That said it's now a wait and see how he does kind of deal. Was hoping for perhaps someone more high profile.
never heard of him. doesn't mean he's bad or good, just unknown. Â
I guess when they said 'don't decorate your desk" they weren't kidding.
This guy's rarely lived in the same place for more than a few years since before half you nubbins were born.
I will say one thing, the efforts been there...let's get this bitch a ring!
I thought he jumped around a lot too, but don't concentrate on the number of different jobs. He switched jobs at some places. Since 1987, here's where he's been:
U of Akron - 4 years
Vanderbilt - 4 years
LSU - 5 years
Indiana - 2 years
U of North Carolina - 4 years
Chargers - 7 years
Colts - 3 years
Browns - 1 year
Looks like he stays at each place, with limited exceptions, for 4 years or more
was at IU for only two years may have more to do with the fact that IU's head coach, Cam Cameron, left after 2001 to go to the Chargers. It's likely that the new head coach at IU just brought his own people in.
I think the OL coach is the most important position coach on a team (which is why you so often see them with the added title of assistant head coach) and given the poor play of our OL and the emphasis that both Gettleman and Shurmur have placed on the OL, you gotta believe Hunter was a highly scrutinized choice with tons of due diligence involved. But it does make it all the more curious re: why was this guy out of football last year if he is so special (he's not some youngster, he's been around awhile)? And what took them so long (it's not like he had previous commitments, at least not to football)?
My best guess is that he showed up at Senior Bowl practices looking for a job and he impressed Gettleman and Shurmur.
I think the OL coach is the most important position coach on a team (which is why you so often see them with the added title of assistant head coach) and given the poor play of our OL and the emphasis that both Gettleman and Shurmur have placed on the OL, you gotta believe Hunter was a highly scrutinized choice with tons of due diligence involved. But it does make it all the more curious re: why was this guy out of football last year if he is so special (he's not some youngster, he's been around awhile)? And what took them so long (it's not like he had previous commitments, at least not to football)?
My best guess is that he showed up at Senior Bowl practices looking for a job and he impressed Gettleman and Shurmur.
Milt, Jeff57 mentioned earlier in this thread (1:34 pm) that Hunter was on a religious retreat last year.
This also leads me to believe that John Greco will be brought back. He played under both Hunter and Shurmur and is a underrated player. He's a good veteran presence who knows the system and he won't cost a lot of money to re-sign.
Shurmur probably has some familiarity with him through Turner.
Bingo was his nameo. He was the OL coach for Turner's entire tenure in San Diego from 2007-2012 when he was actually the OC. In those six years the team ranked as follows in rushing yards in the NFL along with the leading rusher.
2007-7th 1,474 LDT
2008-20th 1,110 LDT
2009-31st 790 LDT
2010-15th 735 Mike Tolbert
2011-16th 1,091 Ryan Matthews
2012-27th 707 Ryan Matthews
Note that with a still productive albeit aging LDT, the running game was fine in 2007, then fell off a cliff as LDT finished up in 2009 and was replaced by Ryan Matthews in 2010. What does it mean? You need a good RB to make an OL coach look smart, he had one for a year and then some. The big takeaway is that he was Turner's OL coach so clearly Shurmur wants to implement that running game style.
What does that all mean? Basically that we may be an old fashioned Air Coryell offense that looks for a power back on stretch/zone plays and uses them to set up play action. What Turner really loves to do is use a downfield type of TE to open up the seams and give the ground game breathing room. Think a lot of play action and no fear to take shots deep, it's not a traditional WCO and given Shurmur's time in Minnesota, it looks like he's running a hybrid with some WCO themes of stretching the field horizontally but not being afraid to use play action to take shots deep and with Odell that has to be enticing. I'm making a guess here but I would think Norv Turner's influence in the running game will have a bigger impact on this offense now that Hunter is the OL coach.
....My best guess is that he showed up at Senior Bowl practices looking for a job and he impressed Gettleman and Shurmur.
Given how important this hire is for the team, I also assume that both Shurmur and Gettleman are convinced of this guy's talent.
As others have said, both Flaherty and Solari were well respected coaches and couldn't get the job done with this bunch of untalented linemen. Get better talent and players that can take coaching and I think that any of these guys would do fine.
Makes sense. Someone called it a power spread. Some outside run stuff but maybe with pulling guards etc. Maybe a split second slower to the line than classic outside zone? But sounds like it could be effective with the right crew. Deep throws in the mix.
One big bruiser back and one speedy scat back. Sproles type.
Minnesota ran a fairly high percentage of zone runs Â
I wonder how that may change what the team is looking for in terms of lineman talent. I haven't seen any numbers on whatever the hell was being run here the last few years.
Hal Hunter Jr. has a lot of experience. He has successfully coached both power/gap and outside zone/stretch run blocking schemes. That is really good because it means the Giants could do either or both, depending on what they are good at.
As Joey pointed out, the hire makes a lot of sense from Shurmur's POV. Hunter was with Norv Turner in San Diego. Shurmur worked with Turner while in Minnesota. I'm sure Turner's offense has influenced Shurmur's playbook. Based on what I have read, it sounds like Turner used the power/gap run blocking scheme while in San Diego:
This next article is the Browns in 2016. You can see both power/gap (most videos) and zone blocking (1 video under Vision/Decisiveness section) schemes getting executed:
I thought they allowed the Defensive players to get under their pads and lean in.
It seems like other teams like the Packers and Minnesota kept more of a stiff arms technique and consistently did not allow the defenders to lay onto them.
I think with the new coach we'll see obvious improvement in run and pass blocking philosophy.
knows what he wants. He knows what he needs to teach his system.
From all I have read Shurmur has taken elements of Andy Reid WCO, Chip Kelly's spread and Norv Turner's vertical offense and blended them to make his " power spread " offense which is still at its core a WCO but also emphasizes running the ball.
But if this guy was so high in their list and was out of football, why did it take so long to hire him?
Four days after the head coach was hired is too long?
Four days after formal announcement. Agreement was earlier. And other coaches were announced sooner and the suspicion is that remaining coaches are playing in SB.
It is more likely that the OC is playing this week and they were unable to discuss the hire with him during the bye week last week.
But if this guy was so high in their list and was out of football, why did it take so long to hire him?
How do you know when he was hired? How do you know his schedule? How are you aware of such details that should not be privy to us mere mortals? Are you a spy??? Are you...are you Pat Hanlon? Seriously, relax, you guys are looking for reasons to poke holes in everything, timing of his hiring/announcement means nothing until you know why.
Not knocking the guy
UberAlias : 4:06 am : link : reply
But if this guy was so high in their list and was out of football, why did it take so long to hire him?
Wasn't Hunter actually out of the country on a mission trip??
Jesus Christ people will find a way to bitch about fucking anything.
my visceral feeling about the new coaching staff is one of disappointment . I hope this works out. Like everybody else I will give them a chance and root like hell. It’s liberating to not have to deal with the cult of personality surrounding Spagnuolo, no more hearing from Kim about how much love there is in that locker room for him. So in that sense I’m happy. But this remains a sick roster with an old man at quaterback . Gettleman will have cap space to maneuver but he needs to add so many guys that he will be compelled to find low-cost gems . Tough gig.
my visceral feeling about the new coaching staff is one of disappointment . I hope this works out. Like everybody else I will give them a chance and root like hell. It’s liberating to not have to deal with the cult of personality surrounding Spagnuolo, no more hearing from Kim about how much love there is in that locker room for him. So in that sense I’m happy. But this remains a sick roster with an old man at quaterback . Gettleman will have cap space to maneuver but he needs to add so many guys that he will be compelled to find low-cost gems . Tough gig.
Your despise for who seems to be a good man (spagnualo) is odd.
Pat Flaherty and Mike Solari were well respected highly regarded OL coaches and they did nothing over the past 5-6 years. I can't think of one offensive lineman that you can honestly say became good under either man. Now they bring in a lesser known Hal Hunter so let's just see how he does before we start criticizing the guy. This is coming from someone who desperately wanted Russ Grimm or Tony Sparano.
Slade with yet another wrong guarantee on Sparano.
Have already proven this; that they have learned and integrated some techniques into their game. That they love playing football. Progress in technique.d
Good balance as opposed to that last iota of height, if presented with the choice, that is.
I guess you have to give him credit for never quitting.
I mean eventually he has to be correct right? By shear odds he has to eventually get one right. That will be an entertaining day if it ever does happen. You know his dupes will be all on the thread trying to convince us that Slade is legit.
Hal Hunter - ( New Window )
So, we must have our OC, but they are still coaching... so it’s gotta be DeFill right?
Does anyone know if any of the offensive position coaches hired or retained have a history with DeFill or Duce?
I’m not in a position to look it up
It isn’t looking like that to me. And at least 2 HCs haven’t been announced yet.
Why not? Who did you want?
Not prejudging, just that with that AND out of football in 2017, just seems a meh hire.
That said, I hope he does a great job fitting players and scheme together to let us score 30-40 each game with the weapons Reese left us( the very small upside of ignoring OL and LB).
Quote:
inspiring choice.
Why not? Who did you want?
The assistant OL coach for the Colts who stunk, then left the browns after one year, then out of the league.
Not exactly an up and comer.
Duce looks like he could be the guy... long history with Shurmur...
It isn’t looking like that to me. And at least 2 HCs haven’t been announced yet.
Why do you say that? How many positions have they (beats) reported numerous interviews for?
The assistant OL coach for the Colts who stunk, then left the browns after one year, then out of the league.
Not exactly an up and comer.
Fair enough, just was curious if you were hoping/expecting someone else. The Browns did have a solid OL (ran for 4.9 ypc) even after losing Mack, Bitonio and Schwartz.
Quote:
In comment 13812362 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
inspiring choice.
Why not? Who did you want?
The assistant OL coach for the Colts who stunk, then left the browns after one year, then out of the league.
Not exactly an up and comer.
When he was OC for the Chargers in 2013, they had the 12th ranked defense, 5th in yardage.
Out beat writers are the only people mentioning Duce. Which they've yet to break a single hire since Gettleman has been here. From the GM, to the HC, to DC & position coaches. The news has all been broken by non Giants writers.
No, he was on religious retreat.
"There's other guys we're looking at outside the building that are, No. 1, career coaches, outstanding teachers, communicators. So we're looking for those type people. Some of them are currently not quite available, but we'll make sure we get a staff full of guys that can inspire our players."
So, we must have our OC, but they are still coaching... so it’s gotta be DeFill right?
I'll be surprised if it's DeFilippo given Shurmur is actually going to call the plays.
Quote:
DeFillipo or Staley, or Stefanski, who's waiting to see if he becomes the Vikings OC.
I'll be surprised if it's DeFilippo given Shurmur is actually going to call the plays.
Why? It's better to be an OC not calling plays then it is to be a QB coach not calling plays.
In terms of personnel, those years were the tail end of LDT and then the beginning of the Ryan Matthews era. Their OL mainstays over those years were:
LT Marcus McNeil (2nd round pick in '06, made pro bowl first 2 years)
LG Kris Dielman (undrafted in '03, made pro bowl each year '07-10)
C Nick Hardwick (3rd round pick in '04, made pro bowl in '06)
RG Luis Vazquez (3rd round pick in '09, made pro bowl in '13)
RT Jeromey Clary (6th round pick in '06)
Will dive into his other stops shortly. I'm pretty sure CLE had a solid OL when Shurmur was there. In Indy I know they did a terrible job surround Luck with good personnel and had a few bad draft picks.
Quote:
In comment 13812439 jeff57 said:
Quote:
DeFillipo or Staley, or Stefanski, who's waiting to see if he becomes the Vikings OC.
I'll be surprised if it's DeFilippo given Shurmur is actually going to call the plays.
Why? It's better to be an OC not calling plays then it is to be a QB coach not calling plays.
Agree.
And, given our new HC was an OC, I think he would get the main say on any Offensive position coaches anyway.
We had Flaherty and Solari, both with excellent resumes, and they couldn't do much with what they had here..
Solari really at all and Flaherty from 2013-2015
I've lived in Indy since 89. The GM before Ballard (his name escapes me, but he came from Philly) made some very Reese-like choices that didn't work out. That, coupled with injuries, has led to the local shit show.
2016: Offensive Line Coach, Cleveland Browns
2015: Offensive Line Coach, Indianapolis Colts
2013-2014: Assistant Offensive Line Coach, Indianapolis Colts
2012: Offensive Coordinator/Offensive Line Coach, San Diego Chargers
2007-2011: Offensive Line Coach, San Diego Chargers
2006: Assistant Offensive Line Coach, San Diego Chargers
2002-2005: Offensive Line Coach, University of North Carolina
2000-2001: Offensive Coordinator, Indiana University
1999: Assistant Head Coach/Interim Head Coach, Louisiana State University
1995-1998: Offensive Line Coach, Louisiana State University
1994: Offensive Line Coach, Vanderbilt University
1991-1993: Offensive Tackles/Tight Ends Coach, Vanderbilt University
1987-1990: Offensive Line Coach, University of Akron
1986: Offensive Line Coach, Indiana University of Pennsylvania
1985: Offensive Line Coach, Columbia University
1983-1984: Offensive Line Coach, University of Pittsburgh
1982: Outside Linebackers Coach/Strength Coach, College of William and Mary
Pro Experience: None
Collegiate Experience: Linebacker, Northwestern University
Born July 8, 1959
This guy's rarely lived in the same place for more than a few years since before half you nubbins were born.
I will say one thing, the efforts been there...let's get this bitch a ring!
Link - ( New Window )
This guy's rarely lived in the same place for more than a few years since before half you nubbins were born.
I will say one thing, the efforts been there...let's get this bitch a ring!
I thought he jumped around a lot too, but don't concentrate on the number of different jobs. He switched jobs at some places. Since 1987, here's where he's been:
U of Akron - 4 years
Vanderbilt - 4 years
LSU - 5 years
Indiana - 2 years
U of North Carolina - 4 years
Chargers - 7 years
Colts - 3 years
Browns - 1 year
Looks like he stays at each place, with limited exceptions, for 4 years or more
My best guess is that he showed up at Senior Bowl practices looking for a job and he impressed Gettleman and Shurmur.
My best guess is that he showed up at Senior Bowl practices looking for a job and he impressed Gettleman and Shurmur.
Milt, Jeff57 mentioned earlier in this thread (1:34 pm) that Hunter was on a religious retreat last year.
Link - ( New Window )
I suspect though that most opinions are based on a quick google check, which in my opinion is not all that revealing about a man s career.
...move this O-line into the middle of the pack, and the Giants win 8 games (or more) next season.
Make no progress from 2017 and we're drafting again in the Top 3 in 2019.
2007-7th 1,474 LDT
2008-20th 1,110 LDT
2009-31st 790 LDT
2010-15th 735 Mike Tolbert
2011-16th 1,091 Ryan Matthews
2012-27th 707 Ryan Matthews
Note that with a still productive albeit aging LDT, the running game was fine in 2007, then fell off a cliff as LDT finished up in 2009 and was replaced by Ryan Matthews in 2010. What does it mean? You need a good RB to make an OL coach look smart, he had one for a year and then some. The big takeaway is that he was Turner's OL coach so clearly Shurmur wants to implement that running game style.
What does that all mean? Basically that we may be an old fashioned Air Coryell offense that looks for a power back on stretch/zone plays and uses them to set up play action. What Turner really loves to do is use a downfield type of TE to open up the seams and give the ground game breathing room. Think a lot of play action and no fear to take shots deep, it's not a traditional WCO and given Shurmur's time in Minnesota, it looks like he's running a hybrid with some WCO themes of stretching the field horizontally but not being afraid to use play action to take shots deep and with Odell that has to be enticing. I'm making a guess here but I would think Norv Turner's influence in the running game will have a bigger impact on this offense now that Hunter is the OL coach.
....My best guess is that he showed up at Senior Bowl practices looking for a job and he impressed Gettleman and Shurmur.
Given how important this hire is for the team, I also assume that both Shurmur and Gettleman are convinced of this guy's talent.
As others have said, both Flaherty and Solari were well respected coaches and couldn't get the job done with this bunch of untalented linemen. Get better talent and players that can take coaching and I think that any of these guys would do fine.
One big bruiser back and one speedy scat back. Sproles type.
As Joey pointed out, the hire makes a lot of sense from Shurmur's POV. Hunter was with Norv Turner in San Diego. Shurmur worked with Turner while in Minnesota. I'm sure Turner's offense has influenced Shurmur's playbook. Based on what I have read, it sounds like Turner used the power/gap run blocking scheme while in San Diego:
https://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/2013/1/31/3937508/are-the-san-diego-chargers-switching-to-a-zone-blocking-scheme
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2013/01/steelers-should-consider-hiring-hal-hunter-jr-as-their-next-offensive-line-coach/
This next article is the Browns in 2016. You can see both power/gap (most videos) and zone blocking (1 video under Vision/Decisiveness section) schemes getting executed:
http://waitingfornextyear.com/2016/10/browns-film-room-isaiah-crowell/
A coach can only do so much.
It seems like other teams like the Packers and Minnesota kept more of a stiff arms technique and consistently did not allow the defenders to lay onto them.
I think with the new coach we'll see obvious improvement in run and pass blocking philosophy.
Giants just have bad technique!
From all I have read Shurmur has taken elements of Andy Reid WCO, Chip Kelly's spread and Norv Turner's vertical offense and blended them to make his " power spread " offense which is still at its core a WCO but also emphasizes running the ball.
Four days after the head coach was hired is too long?
Quote:
But if this guy was so high in their list and was out of football, why did it take so long to hire him?
Four days after the head coach was hired is too long?
It is more likely that the OC is playing this week and they were unable to discuss the hire with him during the bye week last week.
UberAlias : 4:06 am : link : reply
But if this guy was so high in their list and was out of football, why did it take so long to hire him?
Wasn't Hunter actually out of the country on a mission trip??
Jesus Christ people will find a way to bitch about fucking anything.
Elite Mobster #32 : 1/30/2018 9:23 pm : link : reply
Giants just have bad technique!
Bad technique for 6 straight seasons.....who would have thunk it? I guess only the elite can see it....
Your despise for who seems to be a good man (spagnualo) is odd.
Slade with yet another wrong guarantee on Sparano.
Good balance as opposed to that last iota of height, if presented with the choice, that is.
It's so entertaining though! It brings so much value to BBI.
I mean eventually he has to be correct right? By shear odds he has to eventually get one right. That will be an entertaining day if it ever does happen. You know his dupes will be all on the thread trying to convince us that Slade is legit.