…would like to make the following observations in light of yesterday’s trade:
(1) Several BBIers have been condescending of Smith by labeling him an “in-game manager,” but his past 5-year average stats are better than Eli’s based on QB Rating (94.8 vs. 84.3); completion rate (65.1% vs. 61.7%); and, TD-to-INT Ratio (3.09 vs. 1.52). Their Average Yards per Completion are exactly the same – 11.1 ;
(2) But put aside the stats, and ask yourselves: Why did the Chiefs trade Alex Smith but the Giants have not done the same with Eli Manning? You can piss on Alex Smith all you want, but remember one thing: the Chiefs are dealing from a position of strength because they have a gun-slinger like Patrick Mahomes chomping at the bit and a fully fleshed out 53-man roster that can win with a second-year QB at the helm;
(3) In sharp contrast, the Giants are operating from a position of weakness with no such second year QB ready to step in, and a 1-to-53 man roster that is a bottom 10 (more likely 5) in the NFL;
(4) To compound matters, Giants management is loath to deal Eli because the franchise cannot afford another 3-win season in 2018 behind Davis Webb or a rookie QB taken with the second selection. John Mara would prefer not playing the role of a piñata given that -- over the past five seasons -- the lowly Giants have amassed a 41% winning record (33 – 47). Compare that to the Chiefs with a 66% winning record (53 - 27);
(5) Bottom line, the Giants are not in a position to deal from strength like the Chiefs. They are focused on getting back to respectability, something they haven't really achieved in the last 5 years with Eli Manning at the helm and a third rate roster built by a former regime.
1. Chiefs were DEALING Smith because they love their backup QB and don't think Smith can take them to the SuperBowl
2. The Giants were KEEPING Eli because they have no backup QB and need one to groom the rooking we will be drafting at #2.
If Smith is so "great", why did the Chiefs trade (lots of picks) for a QB last year so they could dump Smith this year?
And the Chiefs are loaded with talent vs the shitstain Giants roster. Comparing QB rating does nothing.
1. Chiefs were DEALING Smith because they love their backup QB and don't think Smith can take them to the SuperBowl
2. The Giants were KEEPING Eli because they have no backup QB and need one to groom the rooking we will be drafting at #2.
If Smith is so "great", why did the Chiefs trade (lots of picks) for a QB last year so they could dump Smith this year?
ZZ... the point of this thread? Compared with the K.C. Chiefs, the Giants are in deep shit.
Well played, Sir!
Apparently the Chiefs are now set at QB to deal from this position of "strength"
Then there is Alex Smith. Who is a nice guy and solid competitor but now is an enemy who the Redskins just got fleeced for and managed to give a contract to that exceeds any money amount Eli Manning has ever earned.
The Giants arent Alex Smithing Eli because he (as reiterated by a whole new regime) is still far far better than some fans seem to notice. And he ideally will have a chance to win one more ring over the next 2 years minimum. Trust that if blocked for, and if a rb is any threat to run and block, Eli will light up most defenses with his elite WR and TE as well as a solid couple of other pass catchers.
Just do a fun experiment...look at his season without any other offensive players except his TE. Now add the 12 games Odell was projecting to have (although he would have had a better year than that afterall this team blew even while he tried to make it ok) So if you add 900-1000 yards and 9 tds to Elis season, even with this team he would have had:
4400 yards and 28-30 tds or so....thats not science obviously but you get the hypothesis right?
Would you take a season this year coming up that the QB had 4500 yards and 30+ tds?....and would he be washed up ? Even if he by the luck of the gods ...please please....remains an modern NFL football player who has not missed a.single.snap. in his whole career. please gods leave it so.
Eli is a better player than Alex Smith by lots. - ( New Window )
MS, I understand your post/thread but Eli is not finished. The Reese run front office dropped the ball with the last 5-6 years of player acquisition which allowed our roster to suck.
Then there is Alex Smith. Who is a nice guy and solid competitor but now is an enemy who the Redskins just got fleeced for and managed to give a contract to that exceeds any money amount Eli Manning has ever earned.
The Giants arent Alex Smithing Eli because he (as reiterated by a whole new regime) is still far far better than some fans seem to notice. And he ideally will have a chance to win one more ring over the next 2 years minimum. Trust that if blocked for, and if a rb is any threat to run and block, Eli will light up most defenses with his elite WR and TE as well as a solid couple of other pass catchers.
Just do a fun experiment...look at his season without any other offensive players except his TE. Now add the 12 games Odell was projecting to have (although he would have had a better year than that afterall this team blew even while he tried to make it ok) So if you add 900-1000 yards and 9 tds to Elis season, even with this team he would have had:
4400 yards and 28-30 tds or so....thats not science obviously but you get the hypothesis right?
Would you take a season this year coming up that the QB had 4500 yards and 30+ tds?....and would he be washed up ? Even if he by the luck of the gods ...please please....remains an modern NFL football player who has not missed a.single.snap. in his whole career. please gods leave it so. Eli is a better player than Alex Smith by lots. - ( New Window )
Well played sir!
But, hey M.S created another thread to take a jab at the team on a topic that isn't even closely related.
Well done!
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because the Chiefs surrounded Alex Smith with a team that let Alex Smith have his first season that resembled Eli every year...And this is the nature of Eli's career here. Fans who see him every day are comparing him to players who our fans would have ripped as the worst waste of a #1 pick and a disgusting mess. How do I know? Well because if you take a little look at their careers you'll notice one Hall of Fame 2x Super Bowl MVP with top 5-10 yard and td numbers...all time, plus a consecutive game streak that as we know was only broken by a travesty and one of the worst moments in organizational history. Which led to a massive backlash by the fans who realize that Manning is not Alex Smith but is the best offensive player this ancient franchise has ever given a uniform to, and who shed tears at the premise that he as a healthy player could not suit up to help his pathetic awful roster on the field and do his best to earn his contract and rep our beloved and his beloved Giants.
Then there is Alex Smith. Who is a nice guy and solid competitor but now is an enemy who the Redskins just got fleeced for and managed to give a contract to that exceeds any money amount Eli Manning has ever earned.
The Giants arent Alex Smithing Eli because he (as reiterated by a whole new regime) is still far far better than some fans seem to notice. And he ideally will have a chance to win one more ring over the next 2 years minimum. Trust that if blocked for, and if a rb is any threat to run and block, Eli will light up most defenses with his elite WR and TE as well as a solid couple of other pass catchers.
Just do a fun experiment...look at his season without any other offensive players except his TE. Now add the 12 games Odell was projecting to have (although he would have had a better year than that afterall this team blew even while he tried to make it ok) So if you add 900-1000 yards and 9 tds to Elis season, even with this team he would have had:
4400 yards and 28-30 tds or so....thats not science obviously but you get the hypothesis right?
Would you take a season this year coming up that the QB had 4500 yards and 30+ tds?....and would he be washed up ? Even if he by the luck of the gods ...please please....remains an modern NFL football player who has not missed a.single.snap. in his whole career. please gods leave it so. Eli is a better player than Alex Smith by lots. - ( New Window )
Well played sir!
Word. Alex Smith is impressive with the int numbers. Shows how different the styles of play are too. Smith has solid running in his game and he is not the gunslinger trying to make lemonade out of lemons. He just has never played in an offense that required him to do what he did this year. To his credit he did it and has gotten better with age. Ideally he is awful going forward. As he is now a Skin, his INT numbers will go up against us for sure.
Alex Smith is going to get chewed up and spit out by the NFC East. Did you see what the 3-13 Giants did to him? Have you seen how many big games Alex Smith has won?
Position of Strength? Washington is not going to go very far with Alex Smith. That was a terrible trade, by a team known to overplay it's hand when it comes to trading and managing talent.
When the OP makes a solid football post -- it will be his first.
But, hey M.S created another thread to take a jab at the team on a topic that isn't even closely related.
Well done!
But reasonably thinking about it, Eli's franchise status here is not Smith in KC...they wouldn't consider trading him i really believe that. I think Peyton Manning busted his ass like a maniac to play and win again because of how he felt being moved aside for Luck unceremoniously. I think too that Eli just wouldnt play anywhere else. I really believe he would not continue, and he has a true attachment to the idea of playing every game here. Isn't it really possible that Mara signed off on him sitting late in games so Webb could get reps but the coach was such an asshole that he screwed Eli and played a shitty backup instead to make some spiteful point. But also Eli making his points that he planned on playing and only thought of playing here, made it clear the coach had to go to make sure order was restored and Eli did't get forced off his field without any respect, on his own terms. The happiest person on the planet when McAdoo got canned was Eli Manning.
I don't see how that puts them in any better shape than the Giants.
I don't see how that puts them in any better shape than the Giants.
They got back a real player and a high pick too though. They in theory could improve their defensive starters with 2 new guys and Reid realized Smith is limited in what he could do even though he was very solid. He isnt the guy who wins the game with a Super Bowl on the line in the 4th with 3 minutes to go. Reid realized that too. The upside is higher. WHich is why the Skins trade is so fantastically bad. They dont know what Cousins could have done in certain situations but they basically traded Kirk COusins, their #2 CB and a 3rd for an older QB and a bad contract
no....see: my long ass post.
MS, I understand your post/thread but Eli is not finished. The Reese run front office dropped the ball with the last 5-6 years of player acquisition which allowed our roster to suck.
I don't think Eli's career is finished, but the glitter of him leading the Giants to another Super Bowl is a bright, shiny object that is 6-years in the rear view mirror. My personal preference he to trade Eli to a team that can maximize whatever gas he's got left in the tank, and start the re-build with a newly drafted QB come April.
Yet another reason to take a qb high when you have the chance, trading up gets expensive, and I'm not sure Mahomes was worth a trade up. That's why fans who think it's just so easy to pass on a qb this year and trade up in the future boggle my mind.
Then there is Alex Smith. Who is a nice guy and solid competitor but now is an enemy who the Redskins just got fleeced for and managed to give a contract to that exceeds any money amount Eli Manning has ever earned.
The Giants arent Alex Smithing Eli because he (as reiterated by a whole new regime) is still far far better than some fans seem to notice. And he ideally will have a chance to win one more ring over the next 2 years minimum. Trust that if blocked for, and if a rb is any threat to run and block, Eli will light up most defenses with his elite WR and TE as well as a solid couple of other pass catchers.
Just do a fun experiment...look at his season without any other offensive players except his TE. Now add the 12 games Odell was projecting to have (although he would have had a better year than that afterall this team blew even while he tried to make it ok) So if you add 900-1000 yards and 9 tds to Elis season, even with this team he would have had:
4400 yards and 28-30 tds or so....thats not science obviously but you get the hypothesis right?
Would you take a season this year coming up that the QB had 4500 yards and 30+ tds?....and would he be washed up ? Even if he by the luck of the gods ...please please....remains an modern NFL football player who has not missed a.single.snap. in his whole career. please gods leave it so. Eli is a better player than Alex Smith by lots. - ( New Window )
Seth, the main point of my post is not to say that Alex Smith is better than Eli Manning, or vice versa. My post is one of envy -- envy that the Chiefs under Alex Smith have been a far superior team to the Giants under Eli Manning over the past 5 years. And that the Chiefs have now been able to deal their QB from a position of strength. I would like nothing more than to deal Eli from a position of strength. But that's not to be, and we are left with a competent QB on a 1-to-53 man roster that's bottom tier. And if you think a QB with a Super Bowl in the rear view mirror of 6 years ago is going to accomplish anything significant with the Giants going forward; well, then, that's where you and I see things differently. A lot differently.
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funny twist is that there were strong rumors that the Giants actually tried to trade up for Mahomes last draft but it got too expensive. Had it worked out, we'd be in the Chiefs position right now.
Yet another reason to take a qb high when you have the chance, trading up gets expensive, and I'm not sure Mahomes was worth a trade up. That's why fans who think it's just so easy to pass on a qb this year and trade up in the future boggle my mind.
Well played, Sir!
He's a much better QB. Not the best QB by any means, but he's made himself into a pretty good player.
And this happens. Players stay in the league, and they actually improve. Being with Andy Reid, a coach who can put together a system and game plan, helped immensely.
I suspect he's a tad better right now than Kirk Cousins, and the Skins felt he was an upgrade and slightly cheaper price.
It's a good move.
No doubt that -- over the course of their respective careers -- I'll take Eli's record over Alex Smith's hands down. But I'm not looking at past Super Bowl records when I take a cold, hard look at the current Giants roster and a future HOF QB who's past-his-prime. That's not an enviable combination for the upcoming season. Would rather start fresh with a newly draft QB.
But, hey M.S created another thread to take a jab at the team on a topic that isn't even closely related.
Well done!
The only "jab" taken at the team is a self-inflicted one by management. And that has been a five year flurry of jabs. As for your mentioning Eli's no-trade clause, are your actually agreeing with all that I've said, but the only fly in the ointment is that Eli is nixing any deals?
Alex Smith is going to get chewed up and spit out by the NFC East. Did you see what the 3-13 Giants did to him? Have you seen how many big games Alex Smith has won?
Position of Strength? Washington is not going to go very far with Alex Smith. That was a terrible trade, by a team known to overplay it's hand when it comes to trading and managing talent.
When the OP makes a solid football post -- it will be his first.
In any given game tomorrow... sure, I'll take Eli over Alex Smith. No questions asked. But that's hardly the point I'm trying to make. And speaking of which, the Chiefs definitely traded Smith from a position of strength. I only wish we were in a similar position.
Strange take to have at this point.
He's a much better QB. Not the best QB by any means, but he's made himself into a pretty good player.
And this happens. Players stay in the league, and they actually improve. Being with Andy Reid, a coach who can put together a system and game plan, helped immensely.
I suspect he's a tad better right now than Kirk Cousins, and the Skins felt he was an upgrade and slightly cheaper price.
It's a good move.
Your point is well made, Sir!
I'm very happy the Skins have committed to this guy. More so than if they'd somehow re-upped Cousins. I think talent-wise, Cousins is better.
I'm still trying to get straight what really is the standard. To be like teams that can't win in the playoffs like the Cowboys or Chiefs and hold them as models?
For the record. I'm pretty certain if the Giants had a similar run to the Chiefs we'd be labeling as a team that can't close the deal and that needs to make changes. And if Eli Manning went a season without throwing a TD pass to a WR - whoa - look out!!
The Chiefs aren’t able to take the next step with Smith. IMO he would have been gone either way. They get a decent pick and cap relief. It’s a smart business decision regardless of Mahomes being there.
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and not one of them takes into account strength is relative because Eli holds the cards due to his no-trade clause.
But, hey M.S created another thread to take a jab at the team on a topic that isn't even closely related.
Well done!
But reasonably thinking about it, Eli's franchise status here is not Smith in KC...they wouldn't consider trading him i really believe that. I think Peyton Manning busted his ass like a maniac to play and win again because of how he felt being moved aside for Luck unceremoniously. I think too that Eli just wouldnt play anywhere else. I really believe he would not continue, and he has a true attachment to the idea of playing every game here. Isn't it really possible that Mara signed off on him sitting late in games so Webb could get reps but the coach was such an asshole that he screwed Eli and played a shitty backup instead to make some spiteful point. But also Eli making his points that he planned on playing and only thought of playing here, made it clear the coach had to go to make sure order was restored and Eli did't get forced off his field without any respect, on his own terms. The happiest person on the planet when McAdoo got canned was Eli Manning.
The happiest person on the planet when McAdoo got canned was Eli Manning.
Uh not according to Eli per Eli and rightly so because he knows some of that reflects on him maybe not with fans but with football people it resonates.
Strange take to have at this point.
I started this thread in part out of reaction to a prior post regarding the trading of Alex Smith to the Redskins. On what has become a very lengthy thread, there are numerous posts that are condescending to both Alex Smith and the Washington Redskins, and it struck me odd that so many BBIers would take such a stance given our own team's situation. Thus my thread starter.
Yet this thread isn't about the Redskins. It is about the fucking Chiefs.
Basically, the Redskins weakened their team - that's why people are "condescending" to them.
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The Giants might be in this position at this time next year if they go QB at #2 but Eli would have to waive his NTC. But you can't be envious now unless you think Webb is the real deal.
Strange take to have at this point.
I started this thread in part out of reaction to a prior post regarding the trading of Alex Smith to the Redskins. On what has become a very lengthy thread, there are numerous posts that are condescending to both Alex Smith and the Washington Redskins, and it struck me odd that so many BBIers would take such a stance given our own team's situation. Thus my thread starter.
That’s because Smith isn’t a QB that’s worth trading picks for or a monster contract. Why can’t fans of any team make fun of that? The Redskins regressed at QB but instead of regressing cheaply, the paid dearly for it.
I'm still trying to get straight what really is the standard. To be like teams that can't win in the playoffs like the Cowboys or Chiefs and hold them as models?
For the record. I'm pretty certain if the Giants had a similar run to the Chiefs we'd be labeling as a team that can't close the deal and that needs to make changes. And if Eli Manning went a season without throwing a TD pass to a WR - whoa - look out!!
I don't know about you, but I sure as heck would feel a lot better about the Giants had they played 66% winning ball over the past five years, even with only one playoff victory.
We'd just have threads talking about how we keep failing to get over the hump.
Nor will I, or anyone else on BBI!
We'd just have threads talking about how we keep failing to get over the hump.
I doubt you'll find any threads of mine crying about "getting over the hump." For crying out loud, this entire team right now IS the hump.
What's hard to understand? It's been said on BBI several times, in several threads. Things regressed to the point where guys were coaching for their jobs, and whatever that idiotic benching of Eli blip was, he came back because he gave the team the best chance to win.
It was an all-around cluster-fuck, and the perpetrators are gone.
How is this not a huge step backwards for the Skins?
You were actually one of the posters calling for TC to be let go several times in his tenure. Not surprisingly, even in the 2011 season.
So, I'm pretty confident you'd find a way to bitch regardless of the situation.
ZZ... the point of this thread? Compared with the K.C. Chiefs, the Giants are in deep shit.
How are they in deep shit? Based on your scenario, if they draft a QB this year, they are one year behind KC. They can move on from Eli after next season if they so choose with few cap implications.
Was it a conscious choice to ignore that Eli has led the NFL in INTs three times in his career and has led all QBs for the duration of his career in INTs by 30+? Or is that just something you didn't actually know? And top 5-10 yard and TD numbers? The f*cking game changed during Eli's career. In 10 years, the entire top 10 (other than maybe Marino) will be QBs that played in this millennium. What does that tell you? John Elway will be pushed out of the top 10 in the next decade. Was Eli a better QB than Elway?
There are plenty of strong posters who make valid claims for why the Giants are right to stand by Eli. You're not one of them.
Watching this past season was a complete disaster.....we expected so much.....
So Giant management thinks the fanbase won't tolerate another losing season? We are use to it these last 6 seasons....if the hard decisions are made that puts this team back on track, and we see the building blocks of the future put in place, losing is more tolerable....
But to put a team together to get some sort of respectability, and then flounder after that is just unacceptable.....this is the path we have followed the last 6 seasons...
It seems that the new HC and management are committed to Eli......does Eli still have something left in the tank? Yes, with the right team.....I just don't think the Giants are that team......the team should entertain any offers for his services, and make a trade, provided he waives his no trade clause.....Will this team make the playoffs next year? Seriously doubt it....and if it does, it is more likely a one an done.... What about the next season? It's hard to judge what the new people in charge will accomplish over the next two seasons.....so would the Giants re-sign Eli after two years? Unlikely, unless he was to become 2011 Eli again, which is just not possible....So if we go nowhere with Eli these next two years, and don't resign him, what is the purpose of keeping him?
So keeping Eli to be a mentor? that's an expensive 22M mentor, who probably mentors nothing....How much did Webb get mentored this past season? Keeping Eli just delays the inevitable and sets this team's timetable backwards.....
A trade nets us a player/pick, and provides 10M this season AND next season, to help rebuild this OL....
Tough decisions have to be made......picking a qb at #2 and keeping Eli, just delays the resurrection of the New York Football Giants....
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I doubt you'll find any threads of mine crying about "getting over the hump." For crying out loud, this entire team right now IS the hump.
You were actually one of the posters calling for TC to be let go several times in his tenure. Not surprisingly, even in the 2011 season.
So, I'm pretty confident you'd find a way to bitch regardless of the situation.
Ha. I admire organizatios with institutional memory, too bad BBI has so little of it.
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ZZ... the point of this thread? Compared with the K.C. Chiefs, the Giants are in deep shit.
How are they in deep shit? Based on your scenario, if they draft a QB this year, they are one year behind KC. They can move on from Eli after next season if they so choose with few cap implications.
They are in deep shit right now because they need to find a new franchise QB and they need a total O-line re-build. And they have a bottom tier LB-ing corp. And they have two DEs that are under-performing their huge contracts. And while I think they're OK at running back, no one would say we have a game-breaker back there carrying the rock. Oh, and our punter and kicker are bottom tier as well.
Apparently the Chiefs are now set at QB to deal from this position of "strength"
That's a pretty phenomenal performance for a rookie making his first NFL start.
Those would also be really good numbers for Eli lately, too.
The Chiefs made this trade because they planned for their future with Mahomes as the franchise QB.
The point of this thread, it seems to me, is that while BBI is disrespecting the Skins and Alex Smith, we have a QB that has flat out sucked for two straight years and we have the worst QB in the division right now, which would've been accurate whether Alex Smith or Kirk Cousins was playing next year for Washington.
They are in deep shit right now because they need to find a new franchise QB and they need a total O-line re-build. And they have a bottom tier LB-ing corp. And they have two DEs that are under-performing their huge contracts. And while I think they're OK at running back, no one would say we have a game-breaker back there carrying the rock. Oh, and our punter and kicker are bottom tier as well.
But little of that has anything to do with Eli. Hopefully they can find their next franchise QB in this draft, and fortify the OL with picks and FA signings. They've had garbage LB's for years, and had a top-rated defense only one year ago. I don't think the situation is nearly as bleak as you paint it.
Watching this past season was a complete disaster.....we expected so much.....
So Giant management thinks the fanbase won't tolerate another losing season? We are use to it these last 6 seasons....if the hard decisions are made that puts this team back on track, and we see the building blocks of the future put in place, losing is more tolerable....
But to put a team together to get some sort of respectability, and then flounder after that is just unacceptable.....this is the path we have followed the last 6 seasons...
It seems that the new HC and management are committed to Eli......does Eli still have something left in the tank? Yes, with the right team.....I just don't think the Giants are that team......the team should entertain any offers for his services, and make a trade, provided he waives his no trade clause.....Will this team make the playoffs next year? Seriously doubt it....and if it does, it is more likely a one an done.... What about the next season? It's hard to judge what the new people in charge will accomplish over the next two seasons.....so would the Giants re-sign Eli after two years? Unlikely, unless he was to become 2011 Eli again, which is just not possible....So if we go nowhere with Eli these next two years, and don't resign him, what is the purpose of keeping him?
So keeping Eli to be a mentor? that's an expensive 22M mentor, who probably mentors nothing....How much did Webb get mentored this past season? Keeping Eli just delays the inevitable and sets this team's timetable backwards.....
A trade nets us a player/pick, and provides 10M this season AND next season, to help rebuild this OL....
Tough decisions have to be made......picking a qb at #2 and keeping Eli, just delays the resurrection of the New York Football Giants....
Well played, Sir! This is the crossroads the Giants find themselves in!!! They can keep Eli at starting QB and not go very far, and then start the re-build. Or, they can start the re-build now. I'm for the latter.
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They are in deep shit right now because they need to find a new franchise QB and they need a total O-line re-build. And they have a bottom tier LB-ing corp. And they have two DEs that are under-performing their huge contracts. And while I think they're OK at running back, no one would say we have a game-breaker back there carrying the rock. Oh, and our punter and kicker are bottom tier as well.
But little of that has anything to do with Eli. Hopefully they can find their next franchise QB in this draft, and fortify the OL with picks and FA signings. They've had garbage LB's for years, and had a top-rated defense only one year ago. I don't think the situation is nearly as bleak as you paint it.
But, actually, I believe Eli IS part of the problem. Not because he is inadequate, like our shit-ass o-line. But because I don't believe this franchise is going anywhere with Eli still at the helm. I believe we have a choice: start the re-build now, or start it in a year or two after we've parted ways with Eli.
When the OP makes a solid football post -- it will be his first.
Ouch.
OK now reverse it. Pretend Alex Smith was on the Giants this year. Saddle him with this offense. Give him injuries all over the place. Do we win a game?
Supporting cast matters. Fix the cast around Eli and win games. If you have a high enough grade on a QB, take him at 2. He sits for a year or two and away we go. But forcing a QB pick just because we never draft this high would not be very wise.
It isn't an either/or. You can rebuild this year, even draft a QB, and have Eli play. You don't really accelerate anything by having a draftee play, especially since the lauded Chiefs are doing the same thing.
You really don't get much equity trading Eli or letting him go before the next year, and he can serve as a stop-gap for the rookie. And I don'
t know why this needs to keep getting pointed out, but every season there has been at least a 50% turnover in playoff teams in the past decade. This past year featured 9 teams who hadn't made the playoffs the year before.
Long rebuilds are a thing of the past
OK now reverse it. Pretend Alex Smith was on the Giants this year. Saddle him with this offense. Give him injuries all over the place. Do we win a game?
Supporting cast matters. Fix the cast around Eli and win games. If you have a high enough grade on a QB, take him at 2. He sits for a year or two and away we go. But forcing a QB pick just because we never draft this high would not be very wise.
Mic drop right here...
And that seriously is what it is. No matter the situation someone on BBI tries to square peg-round hole it into an argument that feeds their "Eli sucks" agenda.
OK now reverse it. Pretend Alex Smith was on the Giants this year. Saddle him with this offense. Give him injuries all over the place. Do we win a game?
Supporting cast matters. Fix the cast around Eli and win games. If you have a high enough grade on a QB, take him at 2. He sits for a year or two and away we go. But forcing a QB pick just because we never draft this high would not be very wise.
You are deluded. Eli very likely doesn't do any better with that Chiefs team than Smith. I honestly believe Eli can win with an outstanding team around him and I think Eli is the greatest QB in franchise history. But he isn't better than Alex Smith RIGHT NOW. He's not a good QB anymore.
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I believe we have a choice: start the re-build now, or start it in a year or two after we've parted ways with Eli.
It isn't an either/or. You can rebuild this year, even draft a QB, and have Eli play. You don't really accelerate anything by having a draftee play, especially since the lauded Chiefs are doing the same thing.
You really don't get much equity trading Eli or letting him go before the next year, and he can serve as a stop-gap for the rookie. And I don'
t know why this needs to keep getting pointed out, but every season there has been at least a 50% turnover in playoff teams in the past decade. This past year featured 9 teams who hadn't made the playoffs the year before.
Long rebuilds are a thing of the past
Gospel truth here! Call me an apologist but I believe there is enough talent
In key positions that we can, with good coaching, make a credible run for the Super Bowl for the next two years with Eli at the helm without jeopardizing the future. I think the holes that need to be filled are going to have to be addressed regardless of who is QB.
He just spent a couple years under center with a top 10 defense, Travis Kelce, a top 3 rushing attack, and Tyreek Hill. We've seen what Eli can do with a top wideout. Support that with a top TE and a top D and a great running game, and those pretty much are the conditions we should all agree would be where Eli would thrive.
Put smith in charge of the giants last year. Exactly where is he going to look better than eli? Would the results have been different?
OK now reverse it. Pretend Alex Smith was on the Giants this year. Saddle him with this offense. Give him injuries all over the place. Do we win a game?
Supporting cast matters. Fix the cast around Eli and win games. If you have a high enough grade on a QB, take him at 2. He sits for a year or two and away we go. But forcing a QB pick just because we never draft this high would not be very wise.
Good post Pete. Exactly
Fact is the Giants have a used mercedes and a new hundai in the garage
The Chiefs have a new and a used Chevy
They just got new chevy money for the used Chevy.
If you want to be envious, then you want to admire the guy who just hoodwinked the Redskns, who will have buyers remosre in short order.
Me id rather drive a mercedes.
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Pretend that Eli was on the Chiefs this year. Give him a credible offensive line, and weapons like Travis Kelce, Tye Hill, and Kareem Hunt. Does that team challenge for a Super Bowl? I would have to say more than likely yes.
OK now reverse it. Pretend Alex Smith was on the Giants this year. Saddle him with this offense. Give him injuries all over the place. Do we win a game?
Supporting cast matters. Fix the cast around Eli and win games. If you have a high enough grade on a QB, take him at 2. He sits for a year or two and away we go. But forcing a QB pick just because we never draft this high would not be very wise.
You are deluded. Eli very likely doesn't do any better with that Chiefs team than Smith. I honestly believe Eli can win with an outstanding team around him and I think Eli is the greatest QB in franchise history. But he isn't better than Alex Smith RIGHT NOW. He's not a good QB anymore.
Sorry, that’s just wrong....is he the QB that he was? No Have the shitty olines effected his play so that he’s now jumpy and more error prone? Certainly....but to suggest that he isn’t a “good” QB anymore is just absurd IMO. I think a lot of people are going to be surprised by his play this year as I do believe they will improve the oline and they now have a creative/flexible offensive mind at the helm who taylors to the talent he has on the field.
Even if you are in the camp that Eli sucks, he's certainly capable enough to be in the postseason if the parts around him a re good enough. And you only have to look back to 2016 to see that's true. If Eli was along for the ride in 2016, he certainly could've steered the car for this year's Chief team.
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Pretend that Eli was on the Chiefs this year. Give him a credible offensive line, and weapons like Travis Kelce, Tye Hill, and Kareem Hunt. Does that team challenge for a Super Bowl? I would have to say more than likely yes.
OK now reverse it. Pretend Alex Smith was on the Giants this year. Saddle him with this offense. Give him injuries all over the place. Do we win a game?
Supporting cast matters. Fix the cast around Eli and win games. If you have a high enough grade on a QB, take him at 2. He sits for a year or two and away we go. But forcing a QB pick just because we never draft this high would not be very wise.
You are deluded. Eli very likely doesn't do any better with that Chiefs team than Smith. I honestly believe Eli can win with an outstanding team around him and I think Eli is the greatest QB in franchise history. But he isn't better than Alex Smith RIGHT NOW. He's not a good QB anymore.
Ok fine. 2:00 to go in Sunday’s game. 3 point game. In our hypothetical world, the Eagles can have:
A) Nick Foles
B) Alex Smith
C) Eli Manning
D) Kirk Cousins
E) Dak Prescott
Who do they pick? See, you’re downgrading Eli because you’ve seen him in less than favorable conditions with a shitty supporting cast for the last season. Go watch the Packers playoff game 12 months ago. Eli came out throwing darts. His receivers dropped them. His defense gave up a Hail Mary. Aaron Rodgers spent a half escorting Devon Wade out of the NFL and we got beat. So you’re telling me that a year later, Eli isn’t good anymore because McAdoo’s offense sucks, OBJ got hurt, and we went 3-13? Eli is not the problem and he will show you if you fix the problems around him.
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Pretend that Eli was on the Chiefs this year. Give him a credible offensive line, and weapons like Travis Kelce, Tye Hill, and Kareem Hunt. Does that team challenge for a Super Bowl? I would have to say more than likely yes.
OK now reverse it. Pretend Alex Smith was on the Giants this year. Saddle him with this offense. Give him injuries all over the place. Do we win a game?
Supporting cast matters. Fix the cast around Eli and win games. If you have a high enough grade on a QB, take him at 2. He sits for a year or two and away we go. But forcing a QB pick just because we never draft this high would not be very wise.
Good post Pete. Exactly
Fact is the Giants have a used mercedes and a new hundai in the garage
The Chiefs have a new and a used Chevy
They just got new chevy money for the used Chevy.
If you want to be envious, then you want to admire the guy who just hoodwinked the Redskns, who will have buyers remosre in short order.
Me id rather drive a mercedes.
What makes Eli a Mercedes and Mahomes a Chevy? Is it just because Mahomes hasn't done anything yet? Does a player's automotive equivalent upgrade/downgrade over time? Was Brady a new Le Car when he got drafted and is now a used Maybach? Is that how that works? And if so, are we sure that Eli is still a Mercedes? Maybe he's a used Chrysler or a used Lincoln.
Is Garappolo a certified pre-owned Lexus? Will some team have to use the lemon law on Rosen? This is fascinating stuff.
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many keep falling into:
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I believe we have a choice: start the re-build now, or start it in a year or two after we've parted ways with Eli.
It isn't an either/or. You can rebuild this year, even draft a QB, and have Eli play. You don't really accelerate anything by having a draftee play, especially since the lauded Chiefs are doing the same thing.
You really don't get much equity trading Eli or letting him go before the next year, and he can serve as a stop-gap for the rookie. And I don'
t know why this needs to keep getting pointed out, but every season there has been at least a 50% turnover in playoff teams in the past decade. This past year featured 9 teams who hadn't made the playoffs the year before.
Long rebuilds are a thing of the past
Gospel truth here! Call me an apologist but I believe there is enough talent
In key positions that we can, with good coaching, make a credible run for the Super Bowl for the next two years with Eli at the helm without jeopardizing the future. I think the holes that need to be filled are going to have to be addressed regardless of who is QB.
Reb... I think you raise a very crucial issue that is rattling around in the back of my mind and somehow -- although weakly -- implied in what I've posted throughout this thread. Your key statement that caught my eye is this: "...with Eli at the helm without jeopardizing the future."
Here's my worry: Eli is not the future and the wins he adds to this team in 2018 are just wins (in my opinion) that bring us back to respectability but also pushes us down the draft board.
The analogy I have in mind is the Fran Tarkenton years with the Giants. He carried the team and made them an interesting (and unpredictable) .500 ball club, thus preventing the Giants from securing premiere draft choices (Top 3) for a few years. The rest is history. A mediocre Giants team with Tark at the helm descended for many years into a terrible team once Tark went back to Minny.
Eli is now our Fran Tarkenton.
Well at least you'll be a frequent poster then....
It's as if the 2016 season has been erased from the NY Giants history.
Let's pretend 2011 didnt happen either so you can have a clean 9 years of shitty football.
He just spent a couple years under center with a top 10 defense, Travis Kelce, a top 3 rushing attack, and Tyreek Hill. We've seen what Eli can do with a top wideout. Support that with a top TE and a top D and a great running game, and those pretty much are the conditions we should all agree would be where Eli would thrive.
Put smith in charge of the giants last year. Exactly where is he going to look better than eli? Would the results have been different?
2017: 28th in total defense
2016: 24th in total defense
Alex Smith is a lot better than you guys are giving him credit for. He has had very mediocre receivers for much of his career, much more plodding than the guys NYG have had in here.
Alex Smith had good receivers finally last year with a weapon in Hill and did very well. He's a three time pro bowler now.
Im not saying he is the second coming but cherry picking his bad start against nyg seems unfair or the fact he lost 2011 nfc championship or his early bad part of his career on a terrible team.
He has not been particularly good in the playoffs but he also has macro level issues like Reid not being a particularly good playoff coach.
And while I wont go into the rabbit hole of comparing them, the hypocrisy is unreal. So many quick to point out cherry picked arguments to bash Alex Smith and will ignore anything with Eli.
Riddick said it; he can do things Cousins cant. They were staring at paying Cousins a lot of money to stay. It was a good move for WASH relative to the other options.
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So Giant management thinks the fanbase won't tolerate another losing season? We are use to it these last 6 seasons....
It's as if the 2016 season has been erased from the NY Giants history.
Let's pretend 2011 didnt happen either so you can have a clean 9 years of shitty football.
yep...how about the 2015 team that (to many posters here seems like decades ago) that the defense lost half a dozen games by giving up 4th quarter leads.
Just forget it because Manning should have played defense and helped the team get a stop in the final 2 minutes each time the offense handed the ball over with the lead.
Well at least you'll be a frequent poster then....
No... I want them to find a replacement for their future HOF QB ASAP, and let the new QB take over a young, newly made-over team that shows the promise of growth and success in the future. Sometimes you have to take a step backwards to get better, so long as that step backwards is with a group of young players who you feel are keepers.
Alex Smith is a lot better than you guys are giving him credit for. He has had very mediocre receivers for much of his career, much more plodding than the guys NYG have had in here.
Alex Smith had good receivers finally last year with a weapon in Hill and did very well. He's a three time pro bowler now.
Im not saying he is the second coming but cherry picking his bad start against nyg seems unfair or the fact he lost 2011 nfc championship or his early bad part of his career on a terrible team.
He has not been particularly good in the playoffs but he also has macro level issues like Reid not being a particularly good playoff coach.
And while I wont go into the rabbit hole of comparing them, the hypocrisy is unreal. So many quick to point out cherry picked arguments to bash Alex Smith and will ignore anything with Eli.
Riddick said it; he can do things Cousins cant. They were staring at paying Cousins a lot of money to stay. It was a good move for WASH relative to the other options.
If Alex Smith is so good, why draft Mahomes? Clearly, KC thinks he’s limited in some way.
He went an entire season not throwing a TD pass to a WR.
Tell me Eli would get credit here for that?
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In comment 13813523 Doomster said:
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So Giant management thinks the fanbase won't tolerate another losing season? We are use to it these last 6 seasons....
It's as if the 2016 season has been erased from the NY Giants history.
Let's pretend 2011 didnt happen either so you can have a clean 9 years of shitty football.
yep...how about the 2015 team that (to many posters here seems like decades ago) that the defense lost half a dozen games by giving up 4th quarter leads.
Just forget it because Manning should have played defense and helped the team get a stop in the final 2 minutes each time the offense handed the ball over with the lead.
2015 is an interesting example to bring up. At least one of the losses that the defense gave up that year might not have been on them.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 13813583 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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many keep falling into:
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I believe we have a choice: start the re-build now, or start it in a year or two after we've parted ways with Eli.
It isn't an either/or. You can rebuild this year, even draft a QB, and have Eli play. You don't really accelerate anything by having a draftee play, especially since the lauded Chiefs are doing the same thing.
You really don't get much equity trading Eli or letting him go before the next year, and he can serve as a stop-gap for the rookie. And I don'
t know why this needs to keep getting pointed out, but every season there has been at least a 50% turnover in playoff teams in the past decade. This past year featured 9 teams who hadn't made the playoffs the year before.
Long rebuilds are a thing of the past
Gospel truth here! Call me an apologist but I believe there is enough talent
In key positions that we can, with good coaching, make a credible run for the Super Bowl for the next two years with Eli at the helm without jeopardizing the future. I think the holes that need to be filled are going to have to be addressed regardless of who is QB.
Reb... I think you raise a very crucial issue that is rattling around in the back of my mind and somehow -- although weakly -- implied in what I've posted throughout this thread. Your key statement that caught my eye is this: "...with Eli at the helm without jeopardizing the future."
Here's my worry: Eli is not the future and the wins he adds to this team in 2018 are just wins (in my opinion) that bring us back to respectability but also pushes us down the draft board.
The analogy I have in mind is the Fran Tarkenton years with the Giants. He carried the team and made them an interesting (and unpredictable) .500 ball club, thus preventing the Giants from securing premiere draft choices (Top 3) for a few years. The rest is history. A mediocre Giants team with Tark at the helm descended for many years into a terrible team once Tark went back to Minny.
Eli is now our Fran Tarkenton.
The Giants traded away premiere draft choices to get Tarkenton for one thing. He, indeed, was an interesting and unpredictable player who amassed stats while managing to disappear in big games. He was also an egomaniac who thought he was bigger than the team. How has Manning cost the Giants high draft picks -- by winning playoff games and SBs? I really don't see the Tarhenton/Manning analogy.
2016: 24th in total defense
In points allowed they were 7th in 2016 and 10th in 2017.
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In comment 13813606 Reb8thVA said:
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In comment 13813583 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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many keep falling into:
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I believe we have a choice: start the re-build now, or start it in a year or two after we've parted ways with Eli.
It isn't an either/or. You can rebuild this year, even draft a QB, and have Eli play. You don't really accelerate anything by having a draftee play, especially since the lauded Chiefs are doing the same thing.
You really don't get much equity trading Eli or letting him go before the next year, and he can serve as a stop-gap for the rookie. And I don'
t know why this needs to keep getting pointed out, but every season there has been at least a 50% turnover in playoff teams in the past decade. This past year featured 9 teams who hadn't made the playoffs the year before.
Long rebuilds are a thing of the past
Gospel truth here! Call me an apologist but I believe there is enough talent
In key positions that we can, with good coaching, make a credible run for the Super Bowl for the next two years with Eli at the helm without jeopardizing the future. I think the holes that need to be filled are going to have to be addressed regardless of who is QB.
Reb... I think you raise a very crucial issue that is rattling around in the back of my mind and somehow -- although weakly -- implied in what I've posted throughout this thread. Your key statement that caught my eye is this: "...with Eli at the helm without jeopardizing the future."
Here's my worry: Eli is not the future and the wins he adds to this team in 2018 are just wins (in my opinion) that bring us back to respectability but also pushes us down the draft board.
The analogy I have in mind is the Fran Tarkenton years with the Giants. He carried the team and made them an interesting (and unpredictable) .500 ball club, thus preventing the Giants from securing premiere draft choices (Top 3) for a few years. The rest is history. A mediocre Giants team with Tark at the helm descended for many years into a terrible team once Tark went back to Minny.
Eli is now our Fran Tarkenton.
The Giants traded away premiere draft choices to get Tarkenton for one thing. He, indeed, was an interesting and unpredictable player who amassed stats while managing to disappear in big games. He was also an egomaniac who thought he was bigger than the team. How has Manning cost the Giants high draft picks -- by winning playoff games and SBs? I really don't see the Tarhenton/Manning analogy.
Clatterbuck... the analogy is not about the Eli of the past. It is the Eli of the present and the next year or two. That is, Eli is good enough to make the 2018 Giants respectable whereas we could definitely be a bottom-dweller with a newly draft QB at the helm from Day One.
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2017: 28th in total defense
2016: 24th in total defense
In points allowed they were 7th in 2016 and 10th in 2017.
You and I both know that there is a (shudder) complementary relationship between offense and defense anyway - but for a defense to give up that many yards and so few points can often be credited to the offense playing ball control with strong time of possession without turning the ball over. It keeps the opposing offense off the field and forces long fields for them throughout a game via field position.
I don't see how you can only claim that Smith benefited from that without acknowledging that Smith's efficient style of play may have played a hand in it.
What I'm saying is he had a top 10 D, a top 3 rushing attack and a top TE to support him. Heck, in 2016 when the giants had the 2nd best scoring defense, I'm not seeing Eli get credit for that - and frankly, he probably doesn't deserve it.
What I'm saying is put eli in those conditions and he'll come out as well as Smith. Hell - we saw it in 2016, and that was without the TE or the running game - just a top 10 defense.
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In comment 13813681 RinR said:
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In comment 13813523 Doomster said:
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So Giant management thinks the fanbase won't tolerate another losing season? We are use to it these last 6 seasons....
It's as if the 2016 season has been erased from the NY Giants history.
Let's pretend 2011 didnt happen either so you can have a clean 9 years of shitty football.
yep...how about the 2015 team that (to many posters here seems like decades ago) that the defense lost half a dozen games by giving up 4th quarter leads.
Just forget it because Manning should have played defense and helped the team get a stop in the final 2 minutes each time the offense handed the ball over with the lead.
2015 is an interesting example to bring up. At least one of the losses that the defense gave up that year might not have been on them. Link - ( New Window )
The clock management during that series was horrific by Manning and Coughlin...if you remember they passed on 3rd down and it went incomplete...
My point still remains...how do you excuse the defense from giving up a game winning touchdown drive on the ensuing possession?
It's time to move on.
It's time to move on.
Yes, of course. Quarterback good = Record good. Quarterback bad = Record bad. How dare this garbage player not lead guys like Roger Lewis, Larry Donnell, and John Jerry to glory?
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In comment 13813689 bLiTz 2k said:
yep...how about the 2015 team that (to many posters here seems like decades ago) that the defense lost half a dozen games by giving up 4th quarter leads.
Just forget it because Manning should have played defense and helped the team get a stop in the final 2 minutes each time the offense handed the ball over with the lead.
2015 is an interesting example to bring up. At least one of the losses that the defense gave up that year might not have been on them. Link - ( New Window )
The clock management during that series was horrific by Manning and Coughlin...if you remember they passed on 3rd down and it went incomplete...
My point still remains...how do you excuse the defense from giving up a game winning touchdown drive on the ensuing possession?
If they score a TD there as they should have, the ensuing drive is irrelevant. If Eli takes a sack there as he should have, the ensuing drive is a series of hail mary attempts.
Dnew15 : 11:47 am : link : reply
Eli Manning is 33-47 as starting QB for the NYG the past 5 years
Using these types of stats are ridiculous. The highest paid QB in the game, Stafford is under .500 for his career and he's 0-3 in the playoffs.
He's not #10 and his name isn't Manning - and he's the highest paid QB.
Alex Smith really doesn't move the needle for a great roster in getting them over the hump. He's a solid QB.
This was a great move for the Chiefs...but it doesn't really compare to the Giants current situation. Webb is a 3rd round pick, and it remains to be seen what they do at #2 this year.
But, that season he also had an overall decent stat line given he was really a game manager extrodinaire and his team still made the playoffs (and yes, he is not at all to take all the credit).
But he also has multiple 90+qbr seasons, pro bowls etc. So I don't know what pointing out the fact he has a statistical anomaly does. Does the fact he had no tds to wr nullify his pro bowls and his 104+ qb rating this year?
He just spent a couple years under center with a top 10 defense, Travis Kelce, a top 3 rushing attack, and Tyreek Hill. We've seen what Eli can do with a top wideout. Support that with a top TE and a top D and a great running game, and those pretty much are the conditions we should all agree would be where Eli would thrive.
Put smith in charge of the giants last year. Exactly where is he going to look better than eli? Would the results have been different?
I'm attempting to argue that there isn't some huge divide separating the QB's. I think it is reasonable to conclude that Eli would have enjoyed the same success as Smith in KC and smith would've endured the same pain in NY.
And one thing to note for those who claim I'm an Eli-apologist - he's not going to be able to overcome a bad situation. Eli's presence alone isn't going to will a team to victory. I don't look at that as a negative, I look at that as a reality for all but maybe 2 QB's in the league.
The giants have failed since their last Super Bowl win because of a combination of poor coaching and terrible roster construction. Eli's caught up in the wash of having a poor OL in front of him and more recently, coaching that minimizes his impact.
Smith has had a decent supporting cast and a coach who has consistently been able to have offenses produce. when he didn't, he also struggled.
That's the situation 9/10ths of the QB's are in
I do think Smith is a better player than Cousins and I don't think Washington did terrible by this.
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In comment 13813670 M.S. said:
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In comment 13813606 Reb8thVA said:
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In comment 13813583 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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many keep falling into:
Quote:
I believe we have a choice: start the re-build now, or start it in a year or two after we've parted ways with Eli.
It isn't an either/or. You can rebuild this year, even draft a QB, and have Eli play. You don't really accelerate anything by having a draftee play, especially since the lauded Chiefs are doing the same thing.
You really don't get much equity trading Eli or letting him go before the next year, and he can serve as a stop-gap for the rookie. And I don'
t know why this needs to keep getting pointed out, but every season there has been at least a 50% turnover in playoff teams in the past decade. This past year featured 9 teams who hadn't made the playoffs the year before.
Long rebuilds are a thing of the past
Gospel truth here! Call me an apologist but I believe there is enough talent
In key positions that we can, with good coaching, make a credible run for the Super Bowl for the next two years with Eli at the helm without jeopardizing the future. I think the holes that need to be filled are going to have to be addressed regardless of who is QB.
Reb... I think you raise a very crucial issue that is rattling around in the back of my mind and somehow -- although weakly -- implied in what I've posted throughout this thread. Your key statement that caught my eye is this: "...with Eli at the helm without jeopardizing the future."
Here's my worry: Eli is not the future and the wins he adds to this team in 2018 are just wins (in my opinion) that bring us back to respectability but also pushes us down the draft board.
The analogy I have in mind is the Fran Tarkenton years with the Giants. He carried the team and made them an interesting (and unpredictable) .500 ball club, thus preventing the Giants from securing premiere draft choices (Top 3) for a few years. The rest is history. A mediocre Giants team with Tark at the helm descended for many years into a terrible team once Tark went back to Minny.
Eli is now our Fran Tarkenton.
The Giants traded away premiere draft choices to get Tarkenton for one thing. He, indeed, was an interesting and unpredictable player who amassed stats while managing to disappear in big games. He was also an egomaniac who thought he was bigger than the team. How has Manning cost the Giants high draft picks -- by winning playoff games and SBs? I really don't see the Tarhenton/Manning analogy.
Clatterbuck... the analogy is not about the Eli of the past. It is the Eli of the present and the next year or two. That is, Eli is good enough to make the 2018 Giants respectable whereas we could definitely be a bottom-dweller with a newly draft QB at the helm from Day One.
And we want to be a bottom feeder because...of high draft picks? How has that worked out for the Browns? Free agency in conjunction with the draft can move a team from respectability to contender. And I don't think any owner would countenance a strategy built on acceptance of bottom-feeder status.
I don't think the situations are analogous at all.
I think your first sentence is backwards in terms of cause-and-effect. Of course we don't want to be a bottom feeder for high draft picks. But when a team is in re-building mode, including breaking in a new (highly drafted) QB, there's a real good chance the team will have a high draft pick again. That in turn should speed up the rejuvenation process. (Assuming the team is adept at drafting, unlike the Brownies.)
I think your first sentence is backwards in terms of cause-and-effect. Of course we don't want to be a bottom feeder for high draft picks. But when a team is in re-building mode, including breaking in a new (highly drafted) QB, there's a real good chance the team will have a high draft pick again. That in turn should speed up the rejuvenation process. (Assuming the team is adept at drafting, unlike the Brownies.)
As has been noted by others, "rebuiilding" mode is much different in this era than in the years prior to free agency. Teams can, and do, go from bottom feeder status to the playoffs in in season. It's entirely possible Giants can do that next season with Eli as QB and a replacement waiting in the wings.
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"And we want to be a bottom feeder because...of high draft picks? How has that worked out for the Browns? Free agency in conjunction with the draft can move a team from respectability to contender. And I don't think any owner would countenance a strategy built on acceptance of bottom-feeder status."
I think your first sentence is backwards in terms of cause-and-effect. Of course we don't want to be a bottom feeder for high draft picks. But when a team is in re-building mode, including breaking in a new (highly drafted) QB, there's a real good chance the team will have a high draft pick again. That in turn should speed up the rejuvenation process. (Assuming the team is adept at drafting, unlike the Brownies.)
As has been noted by others, "rebuiilding" mode is much different in this era than in the years prior to free agency. Teams can, and do, go from bottom feeder status to the playoffs in in season. It's entirely possible Giants can do that next season with Eli as QB and a replacement waiting in the wings.
Well... that would be real sweet.
Washington upgraded at QB
Washington overpaid for Alex Smith
Eli has had a better career than Smith
Smith 2017 > Eli 2017
Peak Eli > peak Smith (so far)
The Giants probably wouldn’t trade Eli for Smith straight up
Most teams would rather have Smith
Donovan F. McNabb got him to one. Now what happened IN the Superbowl was another matter.
And we want to be a bottom feeder because...of high draft picks? How has that worked out for the Browns? Free agency in conjunction with the draft can move a team from respectability to contender. And I don't think any owner would countenance a strategy built on acceptance of bottom-feeder status.
The flaw in this logic is that the Browns have been garbage at player evaluations for a long time.
High draft picks in the hands of a team that is good in this area can absolutely change the course of a franchise. The Giants would be in a far better place than they are today if they had the fortune of a few more 1st round picks, because they usually get those right.
I look at the situation and here's what I see:
Kansas City: Got younger and more athletic at QB, added a promising young corner, added a 3rd round pick, and freed up a little over $16M in cap space (Smith's # - Fuller's #)
Washington: Replaced one non-title winning QB with another, lost a promising corner, lost a 3rd round pick, and paid the non-title winning QB like one of the best players in the league
It's easy to see who wins and loses here. But what do we see that can be applied to the Giants? I think Eli still presents a better shot at a title than Alex Smith, but some of that is based on faith and not fact. Faith shouldn't be informing decisions.
I think if you're in a position to get younger, more athletic, and cheaper at QB AND get paid in trade for it you have to do it. The right move for the Giants is to trade Eli if they can. It breaks my heart to say it, but nothing lasts forever.
If he’s not finished, then doesn’t it make sense to try to fix what is around him and if you have a high grade on a QB, then he sits for a year or two behind Eli? If he’s not finished, and if we can fix some things around him, is it out of line that we can win 9-10 games with a last place schedule?
It seems like all the draftable quarterbacks could use a year or two of development anyway.
Wash believes they need to prep a rookie but just draft one and play is a fine option unless you think Smith can win one.
In recent years teams have been winning with young quarterbacks enough to wonder if having a young quarterback is actually a detriment. Wentz, Goff, Prescott are the recent examples, but the group before them includes Wilson, Luck, Newton...all guys whose teams did well with them right out of the gate.
I think if you're using a premium pick on a quarterback and parking him on the bench it's a waste. Shit you could make the argument we would be better off today than we are right now if Webb had started every game in 2017.
Now, given the urgency to win and money involved in paying top QB prospects, coaching staffs will tailor the offense to the QB they have, even if it means playing more of a college style.
Goff looked much better after taking lumps Year 1. Luck was successful out of the gate, as was RGII. One's career is effectively done from injuries and the other's might be too. Mariota and Winston have had a lot of ups and downs.
I don't know if that applies to Eli, and if so to what extent.
As much as I love Eli - he never could rise above a poor supporting cast. Yes - he can lead a good team, but with a terrible OL and an ill-fitting offensive system, he has little chance. That's not a knock on him - it is true for the vast majority of NFL QB's. We'll never know, but how would Brady have done in Jacksonville, Cleveland or Buffalo for the past decade? In my mind Rodgers and maybe russell Wilson can overcome talent deficiencies in front of them, but as we saw this year - even Wilson can't overcome a defense that is devastated.
Not realizing this causes guys like Prescott to be overrated and it makes evaluating what part the QB has in a team's misfortunes very difficult - case in point - Eli.
Brady is extending his career through a monumental effort of lifestyle changes and with a trusted support staff tending to his every medical and nutritional need. And also has arguably the best coach of all time running the show and creating an environment that puts him in the best possible situations to excel.
We all love Eli, he is a fine football player who maximized his career and got the most out of his ability. But I don't think anyone would honestly argue that ever had any elite physical skills. He had the career he had with hard work and dedication to his craft, but he wasn't an elite athlete, didn't have the best arm, the quickest throwing motion, or the ability to process what he sees on the field faster than anyone else. I think he's exactly the profile of QB who doesn't become one of these freaks of nature that's at the top of his position playing into his 40s.
I look at the situation and here's what I see:
Kansas City: Got younger and more athletic at QB, added a promising young corner, added a 3rd round pick, and freed up a little over $16M in cap space (Smith's # - Fuller's #)
Washington: Replaced one non-title winning QB with another, lost a promising corner, lost a 3rd round pick, and paid the non-title winning QB like one of the best players in the league
It's easy to see who wins and loses here. But what do we see that can be applied to the Giants? I think Eli still presents a better shot at a title than Alex Smith, but some of that is based on faith and not fact. Faith shouldn't be informing decisions.
I think if you're in a position to get younger, more athletic, and cheaper at QB AND get paid in trade for it you have to do it. The right move for the Giants is to trade Eli if they can. It breaks my heart to say it, but nothing lasts forever.
Go Terps, this is exactly my intent... you've just done a MUCH better job of articulating it! Thank you!!!
... Your words:
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"If (Eli is)s not finished, then doesn’t it make sense to try to fix what is around him and if you have a high grade on a QB, then he sits for a year or two behind Eli? If he’s not finished, and if we can fix some things around him, is it out of line that we can win 9-10 games with a last place schedule?"
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What you say is quite reasonable, and several posters on this thread have (more or less) made the same argument.
My problem with it is as follows:
(1) It sounds a little too logical and oh so familiar! Over the past 5 years a bazillion posters (including yours truly) have hoped for, wished for just the right supporting cast so that Eli could give us just one more magical run to a third Super Bowl;
(2) But in retrospect, it was all for naught (admittedly Eli never got the proper supporting cast) and it turned out that we were all chasing a chimera;
(3) And if we couldn't get it done with Eli over the past 5 years, why should we expect a third Super Bowl with a HOF QB who is now 5 years older and that much more gun shy? And right now -- before any moves are made -- Eli has got the worst O-line in front of him. What are the odds that it can be re-made next year to provide a gun-shy, immobile QB with maximum protection?
(4) Who knows? Maybe it isn't unreasonable for an upgraded roster (and a last place schedule) for Eli to lead us to 8-9 victories. But how likely could this team make a serious run at the Super Bowl?
(5) Bottom line: Why delay the inevitable? We need a changing of the guard, and that begins with -- sadly -- replacing a wonderful HOF QB. We need our newly drafted QB at #2 to start for us now and begin to get NFL experience under his belt. It will probably lead to fewer wins in 2018 (than with Eli), but so what? We'll be moving in the right direction for the future of this franchise.
There's a minimal difference between having Eli play this year with another QB drafted vs. playing the new QB and letting Eli go (at a significant impact to the cap).
We DON'T need a new QB to start right away (even assuming we go that route). You can both play eli and move forward.
I don't know why, but you are either intentionally missing the point or you don't really have the intelligence to grasp it.
Quote:
(5) Bottom line: Why delay the inevitable? We need a changing of the guard, and that begins with -- sadly -- replacing a wonderful HOF QB. We need our newly drafted QB at #2 to start for us now and begin to get NFL experience under his belt. It will probably lead to fewer wins in 2018 (than with Eli), but so what? We'll be moving in the right direction for the future of this franchise.
There's a minimal difference between having Eli play this year with another QB drafted vs. playing the new QB and letting Eli go (at a significant impact to the cap).
We DON'T need a new QB to start right away (even assuming we go that route). You can both play eli and move forward.
I don't know why, but you are either intentionally missing the point or you don't really have the intelligence to grasp it.
(1) Maybe check through my former posts, but I am not talking about cutting Eli Manning and taking a huge cap hit;
(2) I am suggesting that Giants management sit down with Eli and give him two scenarios: a. he's open to a trade; b. if not, he'll be sitting on the sideline with his visor on watching a rookie QB start;
(3) I would never want it to get to scenario (b) but if that's what it takes to convince Eli that he needs to be open to a trade, than so be it;
(4) With a fresh restart of several new and young players, this is no longer "Eli's team." It's better IMO to find a new leader at QB for a new bunch of players. It's cleaner that way IMO, and better for the long term;
(5) As for your insistence that a team can "win today" with the old guard (i.e., Eli) and also set the stage for a winning future with the new guard, that's an assumption on your part that is not axiomatic. I think it all depends on the situation and it could go either way.
And having him sit on the bench is a terrible idea.
And having him sit on the bench is a terrible idea.
I wasn't aware that there is no wiggle room (re: player's salary / cap hit) when it comes to negotiating a trade with another team.
As for Eli sitting on the bench, I agree that's not a scenario anyone of us would like to see play out. But IMO we have to move on from Eli, and the sooner that is done, the better.
... Your words:
************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
"If (Eli is)s not finished, then doesn’t it make sense to try to fix what is around him and if you have a high grade on a QB, then he sits for a year or two behind Eli? If he’s not finished, and if we can fix some things around him, is it out of line that we can win 9-10 games with a last place schedule?"
************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
What you say is quite reasonable, and several posters on this thread have (more or less) made the same argument.
My problem with it is as follows:
(1) It sounds a little too logical and oh so familiar! Over the past 5 years a bazillion posters (including yours truly) have hoped for, wished for just the right supporting cast so that Eli could give us just one more magical run to a third Super Bowl;
(2) But in retrospect, it was all for naught (admittedly Eli never got the proper supporting cast) and it turned out that we were all chasing a chimera;
(3) And if we couldn't get it done with Eli over the past 5 years, why should we expect a third Super Bowl with a HOF QB who is now 5 years older and that much more gun shy? And right now -- before any moves are made -- Eli has got the worst O-line in front of him. What are the odds that it can be re-made next year to provide a gun-shy, immobile QB with maximum protection?
(4) Who knows? Maybe it isn't unreasonable for an upgraded roster (and a last place schedule) for Eli to lead us to 8-9 victories. But how likely could this team make a serious run at the Super Bowl?
(5) Bottom line: Why delay the inevitable? We need a changing of the guard, and that begins with -- sadly -- replacing a wonderful HOF QB. We need our newly drafted QB at #2 to start for us now and begin to get NFL experience under his belt. It will probably lead to fewer wins in 2018 (than with Eli), but so what? We'll be moving in the right direction for the future of this franchise.
Number 4 sounds a lot like what was posted on this site in November, 2011. Yes I realize Eli was younger then. But, look what was done to this offensive line since February 2012. I’m not even saying don’t draft a QB number 2. All I’m saying is don’t force it just because we don’t draft this high.