People won't like him going into the draft, but when he plays he's going to tear up the league.
I wouldn't mind the pick. He put that Louisville Offense on his back, especially this past year. Had a terrible supporting cast, and he managed to improve his completion percentage.
Having said all that, he is not a Giants type pick for QB, maybe Gettleman bucks the trend, since he had a mobile QB in Carolina.
But you'd have to build the offense around him. Trying to force him to be something that he's not will end in frustration and anger. I don't think the Giants would be willing to do that.
I would consider it as a wildcat QB on 2 or 3 trick plays or fakes Â
but he has no accuracy and throws a ton of picks. He would be a mid-to-late pick, but not anywhere in the first three rounds based on what the Giants need.
But you'd have to build the offense around him. Trying to force him to be something that he's not will end in frustration and anger. I don't think the Giants would be willing to do that.
See, I think he wants to throw first. He ran a ton of designed runs at U of L. He can definetly scramble when needed.
get the better passers and don’t get cute. Trading down doesn’t automatically mean we would get him anyway - he can easily be picked before us in that scenario.
But taking away designed runs limits what he can do really well (run and improvise) and emphasizes what he's not quite as good at (pocket passing). He wants to throw, yeah, but does a better job of it when he's not anchored to the pocket.
Guys he’s a QB that can fly outside of the pocket. To say he’s not a QB is simply not watching him. There’s no way to see this kid play and come away thinking that he can’t run an offense.
Is the perfect fit for the Giants. Best arm since Luck. Maybe even better.
The questions on Rosen are all about durability, character, and mental toughness. Those will only get answered during interviews and organization investigation.
With QBs like Darnold, Rosen, and Allen possibly available at #2, there is no wisdom in trading back and ending up with a project like Jackson. If you are going to draft a project QB, get one that translates better to the NFL, like Michael White or Mason Rudolph.
Coming up with all these scenerio's have to first understand one thing, if the Giants believe in any of these QB's, then all those plans are SHIT. You get the franchise QB 100 out of 100 times and if you pass once you are an idiot. If the Giants don't think there is one in this draft, which I doubt, then you trade down, unless Barkley is that good which I don't really believe only because I have yet to see a great running back come out of Penn State. Until I do I will have doubts, but I could be wrong on that, I have watched him play and I do like him, but at #2? Not me.
If you have watched Jackson, please explain why he regressed this year. With all of his ability he has not demonstrated the ability to throw from the pocket.
After last season I thought that Jackson had a chance to be the first QB taken. Now I see him as a hybrid player who can actually play many positions. He could play QB out of the pistol and in an option offense, he could be an "H" back, wide receiver, running back, etc.
For Jackson to be successful the offense would have to suit his skill set. This is similar to what Washington did in RGIIIs rookie season.
I am not certain that this would be sustainable.
Also Jackson is not like Watson. They are completely different type QBs. Watson has demonstrated that he can play from the pocket. He is not a running QB, he is an all round QB. He can and will run but he runs to extend plays to make plays downfield.
If you have watched Jackson, please explain why he regressed this year. With all of his ability he has not demonstrated the ability to throw from the pocket.
After last season I thought that Jackson had a chance to be the first QB taken. Now I see him as a hybrid player who can actually play many positions. He could play QB out of the pistol and in an option offense, he could be an "H" back, wide receiver, running back, etc.
For Jackson to be successful the offense would have to suit his skill set. This is similar to what Washington did in RGIIIs rookie season.
I am not certain that this would be sustainable.
Also Jackson is not like Watson. They are completely different type QBs. Watson has demonstrated that he can play from the pocket. He is not a running QB, he is an all round QB. He can and will run but he runs to extend plays to make plays downfield.
The team around Jackson sucked. I can't tell you the amount of times I watched a L of Vile game came away thinking, man that guy has nothing around him to help him. He's carrying the team on his back.
That being said, he managed to increase his completions and completion percentages on offense this year. So this notion that he regressed is crazy. He put up more rushing yards and passing yards this season. He just couldn't win all the games by himself. The previous seasons they had a better all around team around him. Stats - ( New Window )
I really think that you can get him (and Rudolph) in the 2nd Â
his adjusted completion percentage (adjusted for things like drops) was higher then Sam Darnold's and Jackson was under pressure constantly because his offensive line resembled the Giants. In my opinion, he's a way better passer then most people think.
Guys he’s a QB that can fly outside of the pocket. To say he’s not a QB is simply not watching him. There’s no way to see this kid play and come away thinking that he can’t run an offense.
As could Mike Vick and RGIII, who I thought were going to be very good QBs. Injuries because of runs ended their careers.
Jackson is an outstanding runner but when under pressure (as he was against Chubb et al), he was a very marginal and iffy passer. ... reminded me more of RGIII. No thanks ... My vote is trade down and take the kid from Oklahoma State ... much more upside as a pro passer.
Guys he’s a QB that can fly outside of the pocket. To say he’s not a QB is simply not watching him. There’s no way to see this kid play and come away thinking that he can’t run an offense.
First, to answer the question, no I don't think that would be a smart move at all. We are sitting pretty at selecting one of the elite passers in the draft. I know the temptation is there to acquire more picks but there's a team in Cleveland that's made the mistake a few times now. We can learn from that.
Jackson is a hell of a play maker and athlete but there's a lot of concerns with him as a passer. Very inaccurate, questionable decision making, mechanics, ability to read defenses, I mean everything that goes into being a successful QB at the next level. I think there is a very good chance he ends up at WR.
and I mean that in a good way. Strong arm, great feet, quick, fast, and has vision. Doesn't have great accuracy and maybe tries to do too much by himself.
Deshaun Watson himself -- who likely knows a little about the processes and circumstances behind his own successful NFL transition -- firmly believes that Jackson can do what he did his rookie year.
Deshaun Watson himself -- who likely knows a little about the processes and circumstances behind his own successful NFL transition -- firmly believes that Jackson can do what he did his rookie year.
Many of the things being said about Jackson were said about Watson.
"He's a runner, not a thrower"
"Not enough of a QB"
"Might need to switch positions"
Watson's accuracy was less of a concern but there were several knocks on him going in to the draft about his pocket presence, poise, vision, and ability to read defenses.
Too many people are writing Jackson off because they think he's a pure scrambler who can't throw.
Read defenses? Try going head to head with Saban's defenses 2 years in a row in the biggest game of the season and playing awesome twice and winning once.
Jackson has talent but he doesnt have near the resume Watson had this time last year.
Part of why I'd be so willing to gamble on Jackson is because we have two things in place right now:
1. A proven, vet QB (Eli)
2. A young, pocket QB with potential (Webb)
I'd feel confident that we could draft Jackson and wind up getting above average QB play one way or another.
I also don't believe we'd have to drastically change the offense depending on QB.
Shurmur should be looking to incorporate a lot of RPO here - you don't need a mobile guy to make it work, it just becomes more dangerous by about tenfold when your QB can run like Jackson can.
Pederson shredded the Vikings #1 defense by using a ton of RPO to suck players from the back 7 in towards the LOS and then beat them deep. Foles has very limited mobility but it doesn't matter. It still serves a purpose by keeping the defense guessing.
Incorporate spread concepts and Jackson would thrive in an offense like that.
Read defenses? Try going head to head with Saban's defenses 2 years in a row in the biggest game of the season and playing awesome twice and winning once.
Jackson has talent but he doesnt have near the resume Watson had this time last year.
Petrino’s offense is not a simplified spread. He comes from Coughlins coaching tree and he runs a pro-style offense that incorporates the Read Option.
So as far as reading defenses goes, Jackson is probably at least Ok at it.
coming out of college. Laugh all you want, but Vick did a lot of damage.
Vick was an absolute nightmare to defend and when he was playing in a system that really maximized what he could do best in 2010 with PHI, he had an excellent year.
People talk about Vick like he was some complete failure of a player. He revolutionized the game in Atlanta his first few years.
I like Jackson better than Allen but I think Allen is Paxton Lynch..so that's a bust. I just don't see it. Uncanny athlete for sure. If you build an entire system around him, he could do very well but what happens once he gets injured. You have this system installed that needs a generational to work, you don't have another just hanging around. If he loses that step that makes him special once he is inevitably injured your whole thing is toast. It's too risky.
This year's second and next year's first? What pick are you moving up to? Seems like a really risky strategy.
I don't think they'd need to move up far.
I think getting back into the tail end of the 1st rd would be enough. I don't know off the top of my head what the cost would be to move up ~5 spots or so but that's probably all we'd need to do. I don't think we'd have to give up next year's first to do that.
This year's second and next year's first? What pick are you moving up to? Seems like a really risky strategy.
I don't think they'd need to move up far.
I think getting back into the tail end of the 1st rd would be enough. I don't know off the top of my head what the cost would be to move up ~5 spots or so but that's probably all we'd need to do. I don't think we'd have to give up next year's first to do that.
If it just costs a 2nd and 3rd or 2nd and 4th, that'd be a steal imo.
This year's second and next year's first? What pick are you moving up to? Seems like a really risky strategy.
I don't think they'd need to move up far.
I think getting back into the tail end of the 1st rd would be enough. I don't know off the top of my head what the cost would be to move up ~5 spots or so but that's probably all we'd need to do. I don't think we'd have to give up next year's first to do that.
We have greater needs at OL and LB unless they are adequately addressed in free agency to waste picks moving up.
I'm not sure what makes Jackson the best QB in this draft.... Â
based on resume are eliding the far superior supporting cast Watson had. Clemson has been bursting with talent for years now. Louisville's talent is pretty thin.
RE: people making an unfavorable comparison of Jackson to Watson Â
based on resume are eliding the far superior supporting cast Watson had. Clemson has been bursting with talent for years now. Louisville's talent is pretty thin.
Yep, Mike Williams was head and shoulders above any WR that Jackson played with.
it's health/durability. And not because he's any less durable than other running QBs (even though he does have a thin frame) but just because they all get hurt.
Last year Watson was my guy. I wanted the Giants to take him in the 1st when there were rumors Mahomes was the guy instead. Watson's resume and big game performances were enough, shockingly for me, to get over the "running QB always gets hurt" stereotype. I was pretty excited to see how Watson's season would play out only to see him get hurt in practice. Just like Vick did in the preseason. Just like RGIII did.
There are exceptions to every rule. Sometimes pure pocket QBs have accidents. Palmer in 05-06 playoffs. Brady opening day 08. But you are exposing yourself to injury building an offense around a running QB far more than you are with a pure pocket passer.
it's health/durability. And not because he's any less durable than other running QBs (even though he does have a thin frame) but just because they all get hurt.
Last year Watson was my guy. I wanted the Giants to take him in the 1st when there were rumors Mahomes was the guy instead. Watson's resume and big game performances were enough, shockingly for me, to get over the "running QB always gets hurt" stereotype. I was pretty excited to see how Watson's season would play out only to see him get hurt in practice. Just like Vick did in the preseason. Just like RGIII did.
There are exceptions to every rule. Sometimes pure pocket QBs have accidents. Palmer in 05-06 playoffs. Brady opening day 08. But you are exposing yourself to injury building an offense around a running QB far more than you are with a pure pocket passer.
To counter, and as Go Terps has often brought up, there a plethora of mobile spread QB prospects available because of the reasons you mention. If you got Lamar, why not pick up someone like JT Barrett (This is just the first name to come to mind) to back him up. That way you don't have to change the entire system if the QB1 gets hurt.
I'd love it if there is a way to draft him and one of the top OL Â
if Giants can get OL in trade down first. I might take him in 2nd.
Couple of qualifiers:
Can he still run/throw at 230+ lbs? Because at 210+/- he will get killed.
I realize most people in here will think stupid but-
If Giants add 20 lbs on his frame during workout. 15 lb vest on chest 2.5 on each thigh
If he can still run/pass with extra weight - take a shot.
Just a thought
and managing the cap is important, and the argument has been made by some (even though I don't agree with it) that tying up a lot of money in a franchise guy is no good.
But aren't draft picks precious commodities? Now I'm going to possibly spend 2 picks on a QB when I only want one to play? That seems like poor asset allocation of a different kind.
and managing the cap is important, and the argument has been made by some (even though I don't agree with it) that tying up a lot of money in a franchise guy is no good.
But aren't draft picks precious commodities? Now I'm going to possibly spend 2 picks on a QB when I only want one to play? That seems like poor asset allocation of a different kind.
I think there is no chance Barrett even gets drafted, but my point was that there are a ton of these type of QBs that are thrown to the waste-side because they are system QBs.
I want the next Manning, Rivers, Brady, Brees, Ryan.
Take Rodgers for example who is amazing and a huge pain the ass because of his legs. He is so good that you still take your chances with him any day of the week.
But he has paid dearly for his mobility and it cost Green Bay the better part of 2 seasons which were lost because he was out of the pocket running around which is where you are more likely to get hurt as a QB.
Lots of resources(high pick and money). Teams would be stupid to use that on guys that need to play outside the pocket a lot. Great if you can get a guy late in the draft that doesn't cost a premium pick, but certainly not for the Giants. Plus, we have the best WR in football, lets get a QB that can get him the ball and an oline that can allow it.
RE: I'm not sure what makes Jackson the best QB in this draft.... Â
While I agree that Jackson can improve as a passer, the same can be said for all the other guys except for possibly Rosen. And as a comp for Jackson I'd look at five guys that are showing they can more than hack it in the NFL:
Carson Wentz
Cam Newton
Russell Wilson
Dak Prescott
DeShaun Watson
Not one of those guys is a great passer. Not one. But their mobility and ability to extend plays distorts defenses and pulls them out of shape. It also opens up the playbook to the RPOs that are slowly taking over the league, and I predict will completely take it over in the next ten years.
I think Lamar Jackson, if given the same opportunity in an offense built to his strengths, can be a better player than any of those guys. And I'll stress again: he never missed a game despite running the ball for more yardage and touchdowns than Saquon Barkley, a guy who is being touted as one of the best running back prospects in years. Jackson has shown durability and the wherewithal to protect himself.
Wilson is probably the best example for those who want to point to a successful, smallish, running-type QB who so far hasnt had any season derailed due to injury so far.
But again, the odds are against the running, mobile QB.
He has a ways to go before I view him as nothing more than a game manager with a huge OL and one of the best backs in the league who is totally exposed without either.
Once the league figured out how to contain him, he was no longer a real threat.
You've got to be able to pass in this league to avoid being made one dimensional.
Not in 2010 he wasn't.
Completed over 62% of his passes, threw for over 3k yards with 21 TD's and 6 INT's in 12 games.
Added about 700 rushing yards to that (led the NFL in YPC)
8-3 record as a starter.
Put players like this in the right system and they can succeed.
Shurmur will use a bunch of RPO and spread - both of those are things Jackson will work extremely well with.
As his NFL tenure wore on, teams had less and less difficulty defending him, bottling him up in the pocket, and exposing the passer he was. Excellent arm, but not an excellent passer. Same with Tebow.
Also, if one of the blue chips goes to NYG at #2 Â
I'm sure too many are overweighting college production....again. Also, the ability to stay healthy against a bunch of players who will never sniff the NFL means nothing. College and NFL are two diff sports.
I'm sure too many are overweighting college production....again. Also, the ability to stay healthy against a bunch of players who will never sniff the NFL means nothing. College and NFL are two diff sports.
Petrino is offensive-minded coach from the Coughlin tree. He runs a pro style offense, with reads, that incorporate modern day RPOs.
Lamar is more of a pass first Qb, then people want to give him credit for. The way games were called at the College Level, he was given read options and exploited others.
This notion that he is just going to run around in circles and not try to pass the ball is just not true.
That's exactly how the Eagles lit up Minnesota's defense.
Not you, Jon - but I think a lot of people assume that to utilize RPO concepts, you need a mobile QB. People hear "option" and immediately think of RG3.
This isn't the case.
I will say that it certainly helps when the QB is mobile because it adds another element to the attack if he pulls the ball away from the RB - it means that there's still a major ground threat.
But even if the QB isn't mobile, it can still be quite effective. Watch how Foles did it in the NFCC game. It worked to perfection.
I'm sure too many are overweighting college production....again. Also, the ability to stay healthy against a bunch of players who will never sniff the NFL means nothing. College and NFL are two diff sports.
Petrino is offensive-minded coach from the Coughlin tree. He runs a pro style offense, with reads, that incorporate modern day RPOs.
Lamar is more of a pass first Qb, then people want to give him credit for. The way games were called at the College Level, he was given read options and exploited others.
This notion that he is just going to run around in circles and not try to pass the ball is just not true.
It's more than that though. Running a pro style offense helps him understand concepts that he'll use in the NFL. However, he's playing against college defenses and most of those guys will never sniff the NFL. The ability the throw the ball accurately is vital in the NFL and by all accounts, this is his biggest weakness. Some scouts, who see and know more than all of us, don't even think he will make it as a QB in the NFL, but understand his physical abilities and teams may want to move him to another position. Too many people are looking at production in college and trying to suggest that it means something. It doesn't. Not. A. Thing.
I'm sure too many are overweighting college production....again. Also, the ability to stay healthy against a bunch of players who will never sniff the NFL means nothing. College and NFL are two diff sports.
Petrino is offensive-minded coach from the Coughlin tree. He runs a pro style offense, with reads, that incorporate modern day RPOs.
Lamar is more of a pass first Qb, then people want to give him credit for. The way games were called at the College Level, he was given read options and exploited others.
This notion that he is just going to run around in circles and not try to pass the ball is just not true.
It's more than that though. Running a pro style offense helps him understand concepts that he'll use in the NFL. However, he's playing against college defenses and most of those guys will never sniff the NFL. The ability the throw the ball accurately is vital in the NFL and by all accounts, this is his biggest weakness. Some scouts, who see and know more than all of us, don't even think he will make it as a QB in the NFL, but understand his physical abilities and teams may want to move him to another position. Too many people are looking at production in college and trying to suggest that it means something. It doesn't. Not. A. Thing.
I think you didn’t read this entire post. His accuracy increased year after year AND that’s with having lesser WRs this past season. His team was terrible and he willed them to wins by himself. The stats he put up aren’t just great stats, they are in a league of his own.
A team sits in the #2 spot primed to take no worse than the second Â
but he has no accuracy and throws a ton of picks. He would be a mid-to-late pick, but not anywhere in the first three rounds based on what the Giants need.
+1
I wouldn't mind the pick. He put that Louisville Offense on his back, especially this past year. Had a terrible supporting cast, and he managed to improve his completion percentage.
Having said all that, he is not a Giants type pick for QB, maybe Gettleman bucks the trend, since he had a mobile QB in Carolina.
See, I think he wants to throw first. He ran a ton of designed runs at U of L. He can definetly scramble when needed.
A few pro scouts agree with you. As do I.
If you like Jackson, draft Barkley at 2 and then trade back into the first.
The questions on Rosen are all about durability, character, and mental toughness. Those will only get answered during interviews and organization investigation.
With QBs like Darnold, Rosen, and Allen possibly available at #2, there is no wisdom in trading back and ending up with a project like Jackson. If you are going to draft a project QB, get one that translates better to the NFL, like Michael White or Mason Rudolph.
After last season I thought that Jackson had a chance to be the first QB taken. Now I see him as a hybrid player who can actually play many positions. He could play QB out of the pistol and in an option offense, he could be an "H" back, wide receiver, running back, etc.
For Jackson to be successful the offense would have to suit his skill set. This is similar to what Washington did in RGIIIs rookie season.
I am not certain that this would be sustainable.
Also Jackson is not like Watson. They are completely different type QBs. Watson has demonstrated that he can play from the pocket. He is not a running QB, he is an all round QB. He can and will run but he runs to extend plays to make plays downfield.
After last season I thought that Jackson had a chance to be the first QB taken. Now I see him as a hybrid player who can actually play many positions. He could play QB out of the pistol and in an option offense, he could be an "H" back, wide receiver, running back, etc.
For Jackson to be successful the offense would have to suit his skill set. This is similar to what Washington did in RGIIIs rookie season.
I am not certain that this would be sustainable.
Also Jackson is not like Watson. They are completely different type QBs. Watson has demonstrated that he can play from the pocket. He is not a running QB, he is an all round QB. He can and will run but he runs to extend plays to make plays downfield.
The team around Jackson sucked. I can't tell you the amount of times I watched a L of Vile game came away thinking, man that guy has nothing around him to help him. He's carrying the team on his back.
That being said, he managed to increase his completions and completion percentages on offense this year. So this notion that he regressed is crazy. He put up more rushing yards and passing yards this season. He just couldn't win all the games by himself. The previous seasons they had a better all around team around him.
Stats - ( New Window )
He improved every year and still has lots of upside.
As could Mike Vick and RGIII, who I thought were going to be very good QBs. Injuries because of runs ended their careers.
Yes please. This would be ideal. Give the kid a year to develop under Eli's mentoring.
Shurmur used some RPO concepts with Keenum this year. Jackson would be lethal in an offense that utilizes RPO/spread concepts.
I think NYG will sit @ 2 and take Darnold but Jackson has some truly elite abilities and will be a massive weapon if he's used correctly.
RGIII version 2
Jackson is a hell of a play maker and athlete but there's a lot of concerns with him as a passer. Very inaccurate, questionable decision making, mechanics, ability to read defenses, I mean everything that goes into being a successful QB at the next level. I think there is a very good chance he ends up at WR.
I wouldn't mind him in the 2nd.
Many of the things being said about Jackson were said about Watson.
"He's a runner, not a thrower"
"Not enough of a QB"
"Might need to switch positions"
Watson's accuracy was less of a concern but there were several knocks on him going in to the draft about his pocket presence, poise, vision, and ability to read defenses.
Too many people are writing Jackson off because they think he's a pure scrambler who can't throw.
Jackson has talent but he doesnt have near the resume Watson had this time last year.
1. A proven, vet QB (Eli)
2. A young, pocket QB with potential (Webb)
I'd feel confident that we could draft Jackson and wind up getting above average QB play one way or another.
I also don't believe we'd have to drastically change the offense depending on QB.
Shurmur should be looking to incorporate a lot of RPO here - you don't need a mobile guy to make it work, it just becomes more dangerous by about tenfold when your QB can run like Jackson can.
Pederson shredded the Vikings #1 defense by using a ton of RPO to suck players from the back 7 in towards the LOS and then beat them deep. Foles has very limited mobility but it doesn't matter. It still serves a purpose by keeping the defense guessing.
Incorporate spread concepts and Jackson would thrive in an offense like that.
If you like Jackson, draft Barkley at 2 and then trade back into the first.
The Patriots.
[/end theory]
Jackson has talent but he doesnt have near the resume Watson had this time last year.
Petrino’s offense is not a simplified spread. He comes from Coughlins coaching tree and he runs a pro-style offense that incorporates the Read Option.
So as far as reading defenses goes, Jackson is probably at least Ok at it.
Quote:
Fans love it, but where are the examples it works. If it did, the Browns would be loaded with talent.
If you like Jackson, draft Barkley at 2 and then trade back into the first.
The Patriots.
[/end theory]
Not really the end... they blow a ton of picks because they have multiple to do so on.
Vick was an absolute nightmare to defend and when he was playing in a system that really maximized what he could do best in 2010 with PHI, he had an excellent year.
People talk about Vick like he was some complete failure of a player. He revolutionized the game in Atlanta his first few years.
Trade up for Jackson.
Run the spread.
Score lots of points.
Trade up for Jackson.
Run the spread.
Score lots of points.
That's my ideal scenario.
Don't see NYG doing it, but it's what I'd do.
Trade up for Jackson.
Run the spread.
Score lots of points.
This.
I don't think they'd need to move up far.
I think getting back into the tail end of the 1st rd would be enough. I don't know off the top of my head what the cost would be to move up ~5 spots or so but that's probably all we'd need to do. I don't think we'd have to give up next year's first to do that.
Quote:
This year's second and next year's first? What pick are you moving up to? Seems like a really risky strategy.
I don't think they'd need to move up far.
I think getting back into the tail end of the 1st rd would be enough. I don't know off the top of my head what the cost would be to move up ~5 spots or so but that's probably all we'd need to do. I don't think we'd have to give up next year's first to do that.
If it just costs a 2nd and 3rd or 2nd and 4th, that'd be a steal imo.
Quote:
This year's second and next year's first? What pick are you moving up to? Seems like a really risky strategy.
I don't think they'd need to move up far.
I think getting back into the tail end of the 1st rd would be enough. I don't know off the top of my head what the cost would be to move up ~5 spots or so but that's probably all we'd need to do. I don't think we'd have to give up next year's first to do that.
We have greater needs at OL and LB unless they are adequately addressed in free agency to waste picks moving up.
I'm not being sarcastic either.
Yep, Mike Williams was head and shoulders above any WR that Jackson played with.
Jackson's cast was very, very poor.
Last year Watson was my guy. I wanted the Giants to take him in the 1st when there were rumors Mahomes was the guy instead. Watson's resume and big game performances were enough, shockingly for me, to get over the "running QB always gets hurt" stereotype. I was pretty excited to see how Watson's season would play out only to see him get hurt in practice. Just like Vick did in the preseason. Just like RGIII did.
There are exceptions to every rule. Sometimes pure pocket QBs have accidents. Palmer in 05-06 playoffs. Brady opening day 08. But you are exposing yourself to injury building an offense around a running QB far more than you are with a pure pocket passer.
Last year Watson was my guy. I wanted the Giants to take him in the 1st when there were rumors Mahomes was the guy instead. Watson's resume and big game performances were enough, shockingly for me, to get over the "running QB always gets hurt" stereotype. I was pretty excited to see how Watson's season would play out only to see him get hurt in practice. Just like Vick did in the preseason. Just like RGIII did.
There are exceptions to every rule. Sometimes pure pocket QBs have accidents. Palmer in 05-06 playoffs. Brady opening day 08. But you are exposing yourself to injury building an offense around a running QB far more than you are with a pure pocket passer.
To counter, and as Go Terps has often brought up, there a plethora of mobile spread QB prospects available because of the reasons you mention. If you got Lamar, why not pick up someone like JT Barrett (This is just the first name to come to mind) to back him up. That way you don't have to change the entire system if the QB1 gets hurt.
You've got to be able to pass in this league to avoid being made one dimensional.
Couple of qualifiers:
Can he still run/throw at 230+ lbs? Because at 210+/- he will get killed.
I realize most people in here will think stupid but-
If Giants add 20 lbs on his frame during workout. 15 lb vest on chest 2.5 on each thigh
If he can still run/pass with extra weight - take a shot.
Just a thought
You've got to be able to pass in this league to avoid being made one dimensional.
Not in 2010 he wasn't.
Completed over 62% of his passes, threw for over 3k yards with 21 TD's and 6 INT's in 12 games.
Added about 700 rushing yards to that (led the NFL in YPC)
8-3 record as a starter.
Put players like this in the right system and they can succeed.
Shurmur will use a bunch of RPO and spread - both of those are things Jackson will work extremely well with.
But aren't draft picks precious commodities? Now I'm going to possibly spend 2 picks on a QB when I only want one to play? That seems like poor asset allocation of a different kind.
But aren't draft picks precious commodities? Now I'm going to possibly spend 2 picks on a QB when I only want one to play? That seems like poor asset allocation of a different kind.
I think there is no chance Barrett even gets drafted, but my point was that there are a ton of these type of QBs that are thrown to the waste-side because they are system QBs.
I want the next Manning, Rivers, Brady, Brees, Ryan.
Take Rodgers for example who is amazing and a huge pain the ass because of his legs. He is so good that you still take your chances with him any day of the week.
But he has paid dearly for his mobility and it cost Green Bay the better part of 2 seasons which were lost because he was out of the pocket running around which is where you are more likely to get hurt as a QB.
Go back and watch both plays Rodgers gets hurt.
I'm not being sarcastic either.
While I agree that Jackson can improve as a passer, the same can be said for all the other guys except for possibly Rosen. And as a comp for Jackson I'd look at five guys that are showing they can more than hack it in the NFL:
Carson Wentz
Cam Newton
Russell Wilson
Dak Prescott
DeShaun Watson
Not one of those guys is a great passer. Not one. But their mobility and ability to extend plays distorts defenses and pulls them out of shape. It also opens up the playbook to the RPOs that are slowly taking over the league, and I predict will completely take it over in the next ten years.
I think Lamar Jackson, if given the same opportunity in an offense built to his strengths, can be a better player than any of those guys. And I'll stress again: he never missed a game despite running the ball for more yardage and touchdowns than Saquon Barkley, a guy who is being touted as one of the best running back prospects in years. Jackson has shown durability and the wherewithal to protect himself.
He's the best player in this draft.
Watson and Wentz both went down with injury.
Wilson is probably the best example for those who want to point to a successful, smallish, running-type QB who so far hasnt had any season derailed due to injury so far.
But again, the odds are against the running, mobile QB.
And also, Dak Prescott?
He has a ways to go before I view him as nothing more than a game manager with a huge OL and one of the best backs in the league who is totally exposed without either.
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Once the league figured out how to contain him, he was no longer a real threat.
You've got to be able to pass in this league to avoid being made one dimensional.
Not in 2010 he wasn't.
Completed over 62% of his passes, threw for over 3k yards with 21 TD's and 6 INT's in 12 games.
Added about 700 rushing yards to that (led the NFL in YPC)
8-3 record as a starter.
Put players like this in the right system and they can succeed.
Shurmur will use a bunch of RPO and spread - both of those are things Jackson will work extremely well with.
As his NFL tenure wore on, teams had less and less difficulty defending him, bottling him up in the pocket, and exposing the passer he was. Excellent arm, but not an excellent passer. Same with Tebow.
The first I thing I need in a QB is a guy who is going to be out there.
Brady before and after a freak knee injury
Eli
Peyton
Rivers
Ryan
Brees before and after a freak elbow/shoulder injury
Favre
There are exceptions, but be smart. Play the odds.
Petrino is offensive-minded coach from the Coughlin tree. He runs a pro style offense, with reads, that incorporate modern day RPOs.
Lamar is more of a pass first Qb, then people want to give him credit for. The way games were called at the College Level, he was given read options and exploited others.
This notion that he is just going to run around in circles and not try to pass the ball is just not true.
Maybe, maybe not.
That's exactly how the Eagles lit up Minnesota's defense.
Not you, Jon - but I think a lot of people assume that to utilize RPO concepts, you need a mobile QB. People hear "option" and immediately think of RG3.
This isn't the case.
I will say that it certainly helps when the QB is mobile because it adds another element to the attack if he pulls the ball away from the RB - it means that there's still a major ground threat.
But even if the QB isn't mobile, it can still be quite effective. Watch how Foles did it in the NFCC game. It worked to perfection.
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I'm sure too many are overweighting college production....again. Also, the ability to stay healthy against a bunch of players who will never sniff the NFL means nothing. College and NFL are two diff sports.
Petrino is offensive-minded coach from the Coughlin tree. He runs a pro style offense, with reads, that incorporate modern day RPOs.
Lamar is more of a pass first Qb, then people want to give him credit for. The way games were called at the College Level, he was given read options and exploited others.
This notion that he is just going to run around in circles and not try to pass the ball is just not true.
It's more than that though. Running a pro style offense helps him understand concepts that he'll use in the NFL. However, he's playing against college defenses and most of those guys will never sniff the NFL. The ability the throw the ball accurately is vital in the NFL and by all accounts, this is his biggest weakness. Some scouts, who see and know more than all of us, don't even think he will make it as a QB in the NFL, but understand his physical abilities and teams may want to move him to another position. Too many people are looking at production in college and trying to suggest that it means something. It doesn't. Not. A. Thing.
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In comment 13817358 Keith said:
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I'm sure too many are overweighting college production....again. Also, the ability to stay healthy against a bunch of players who will never sniff the NFL means nothing. College and NFL are two diff sports.
Petrino is offensive-minded coach from the Coughlin tree. He runs a pro style offense, with reads, that incorporate modern day RPOs.
Lamar is more of a pass first Qb, then people want to give him credit for. The way games were called at the College Level, he was given read options and exploited others.
This notion that he is just going to run around in circles and not try to pass the ball is just not true.
It's more than that though. Running a pro style offense helps him understand concepts that he'll use in the NFL. However, he's playing against college defenses and most of those guys will never sniff the NFL. The ability the throw the ball accurately is vital in the NFL and by all accounts, this is his biggest weakness. Some scouts, who see and know more than all of us, don't even think he will make it as a QB in the NFL, but understand his physical abilities and teams may want to move him to another position. Too many people are looking at production in college and trying to suggest that it means something. It doesn't. Not. A. Thing.
I think you didn’t read this entire post. His accuracy increased year after year AND that’s with having lesser WRs this past season. His team was terrible and he willed them to wins by himself. The stats he put up aren’t just great stats, they are in a league of his own.
Did you all fall down and hit your heads on the ground...
Trade up for Jackson.
Run the spread.
Score lots of points.
Why tease me with cruel visions of impossible outcomes?
We have that right now with Eli...