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Go Terps... have the Eagles proved your theory

BigBlueDownTheShore : 2/7/2018 8:22 am
They essentially run a spread offense, their cheap low cost QB (Thanks to the Rookie Cap) goes down, and they inserted a Cheap backup QB, who happened to have success running a spread offense in college and under Chip in the league.

Part of me feels like offensive system is reason Foles didn't struggle as much, not Foles being an all world beater.
So Eagles win and they are now the blueprint for success?  
UberAlias : 2/7/2018 8:31 am : link
Coming off of back to back losing seasons prior to this year, winning their first SB in franchise history, opposed to the Patriots who are there every year and winning 5 SBs behind their QB and HC?

Look, there are many ways to win -not just one formula for success. But I challenge one to find a more compelling formula for consistent success than having a foundation of a really good QB and HC.
So  
Keith : 2/7/2018 8:35 am : link
dumb.
i'm with uber  
GiantNatty : 2/7/2018 8:37 am : link
a team can win a single championship in any number of different ways.
but if you want to be a contender year in and year out, a franchise QB is a must. it's the most important position in team sports.
The key to using RPO  
JonC : 2/7/2018 8:39 am : link
is deception, if you get defenders on their heels for an extra blip, you can make the QBs job easier. By doing so, you can elevate a QB's performance and take some of the load off him ...

I'd still put my money on the blue chip QB though. While Eli has been huge in the biggest games, he's not been consistently worthy of his cap hit throughout his NFL career imo. I think this is the catalyst for Terps' reasoning, more than having nothing to do with a franchise QB and the cap hit.
...  
christian : 2/7/2018 8:43 am : link
Sign a cheap backup, but make sure he's had several continuous years in the same system, has set an NFL record for TD:Int ratio in that system.

If that's the game plan, I guess?
RE: So Eagles win and they are now the blueprint for success?  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 2/7/2018 8:51 am : link
In comment 13824726 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Coming off of back to back losing seasons prior to this year, winning their first SB in franchise history, opposed to the Patriots who are there every year and winning 5 SBs behind their QB and HC?

Look, there are many ways to win -not just one formula for success. But I challenge one to find a more compelling formula for consistent success than having a foundation of a really good QB and HC.


Totally agree with you. I don't think they are the blueprint for success. The certainly deserve credit for this season.

Go Terps, has repeatedly said that in order to get away form the QB controlling almost 1/4 of your cap, some team would have to embrace a spread offense in the NFL, and have a few QBs with similar abilities sitting behind him.

One QB goes down, and the other steps in without skipping a beat. Looking at what the Eagles did I feel like its very good example to look at when looking at Go Terps theory. It certainly isn't the rule.
Go Terps..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/7/2018 8:59 am : link
basically advocates having almost everyone on a rookie contract and not allocate cap dollars too much to any player. But that take is inherently flawed because it requires near perfection in drafting.

He's looking at the QB position as being a throwaway one where anyone can man the post for a couple of years and then get released and replaced with a cheaper version.

Look - this approach would be more appropriate in the early days of the cap when dollars were much tighter. I don't think it would have been successful, but it would've been an option. Today - it just isn't feasible for long-term success.

And that putting aside the biases GT has as a fan towards players because they make money. He's basically took the entire defensive signings in 2016 and called them a waste of $$ even though it gave us two Pro Bowlers. He judges guys like Vernon and JPP, not for their contributions, but for their cap hits. And while cap hits CAN be important, today's cap management is easier and easier, with the cap rising each year and contracts able to be restructured to minimize the possibility of cap hell. Even Vernon and JPP's contracts don't have to be burdensome after this year.

I won't even address the idea that letting go the best WR in the game is a wise move. that's been hashed to liquidation
...  
christian : 2/7/2018 9:05 am : link
There's most definitely not a quarterback taking 1/4 of anyone's cap in the NFL.

The highest paid QBs are accounting for 15% or about currently.

Of course having young cost controlled players is ideal. But the literal economics of the system is built to then reward those players in their second contract. It's the actual intedned structure of the whole thing.

There will always be outliers. Chasing those is definitely one way to run a team, I guess.
People are underestimating Foles...  
DonQuixote : 2/7/2018 9:20 am : link
He put up MVP like numbers a few years ago, the talent is there for the right situation to bring out, as it is and has been with our QB.
Sure sounds like a blueprint for success  
mattlawson : 2/7/2018 9:25 am : link
Great OL
Great TEs
Very good WRs
Very good RBs
Very good QBs
Great play calling
Great execution
The flaw I see in that theory  
joeinpa : 2/7/2018 9:27 am : link
Is Foles played like a franchise quarterback. How many backups that can be had for cheap would have performed like he did
What Jon said..  
Sean : 2/7/2018 9:28 am : link
teams adjust. I still take the blue chip QB over the gimmick offense.
Foles played out of his mind  
AcesUp : 2/7/2018 9:33 am : link
Statistically speaking, I think that was the strongest back to back conference championship/SB performance in NFL history. Now, I'm not saying that Foles is this stud franchise QB, but players get hot and Foles was on fire. It goes beyond scheme, were you watching some of his throws? Also, that was one playoff run and one stretch of games, let's see how the Eagles and Foles shake out over the next few seasons before we start having knee jerk reactions about blueprints.
Also  
AcesUp : 2/7/2018 9:35 am : link
It's fair to say that the Eagles don't win that SB with Wentz playing, that's how good Foles was.
RE: Foles played out of his mind  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 2/7/2018 9:36 am : link
In comment 13824826 AcesUp said:
Quote:
Statistically speaking, I think that was the strongest back to back conference championship/SB performance in NFL history. Now, I'm not saying that Foles is this stud franchise QB, but players get hot and Foles was on fire. It goes beyond scheme, were you watching some of his throws? Also, that was one playoff run and one stretch of games, let's see how the Eagles and Foles shake out over the next few seasons before we start having knee jerk reactions about blueprints.


The reason I think he played so well was the system. I don't think its any coincidence that he played extremely well in Spread offenses, and was just terrible in true traditional NFL systems.

The RPO's puts so much pressure on the defense and just puts defensive players in such a tough spot. It ends up opening so many more plays.
RE: RE: Foles played out of his mind  
AcesUp : 2/7/2018 9:39 am : link
In comment 13824832 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 13824826 AcesUp said:


Quote:


Statistically speaking, I think that was the strongest back to back conference championship/SB performance in NFL history. Now, I'm not saying that Foles is this stud franchise QB, but players get hot and Foles was on fire. It goes beyond scheme, were you watching some of his throws? Also, that was one playoff run and one stretch of games, let's see how the Eagles and Foles shake out over the next few seasons before we start having knee jerk reactions about blueprints.



The reason I think he played so well was the system. I don't think its any coincidence that he played extremely well in Spread offenses, and was just terrible in true traditional NFL systems.

The RPO's puts so much pressure on the defense and just puts defensive players in such a tough spot. It ends up opening so many more plays.


I'm sure it helped, but go back and watch some of those throws he was making. It's not like he had players running free. Look at that TD throw to Clement in the back of the endzone in triple coverage. He was absolutely on fire.
I agree with those who are saying  
LG in NYC : 2/7/2018 9:40 am : link
that Foles isn't being given his due in these discussions.

whatever he is or isn't long term - and the jury is out on that - he played like an absolute MVP in the home stretch and through the SB.

Some have likened him to Dilfer in the 2000 SB which is utter BS. Dilfer showed up and didn't make mistakes. Foles led his team up and down the field and and big time plays all game.

so any real discussion should factor that in.
RE: What Jon said..  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 2/7/2018 9:40 am : link
In comment 13824817 Sean said:
Quote:
teams adjust. I still take the blue chip QB over the gimmick offense.


The gimmick offense isn't going anywhere. Its extremely successful in the NCAA, and these type of players are everywhere. More NFL teams are going to start implementing them, including our own.

If anything, the next step is how defenses will adjust to playing them. There is usually a back and forth between the evolution of offenses to defenses.
Shitty drafting leads to a shitty team  
AnnapolisMike : 2/7/2018 9:46 am : link
You can only have so many players with a yearly cap hit in excess of 8-10M. The key is winning with great players who are on there first contract or in the early years of a second. Once you pay them there is so much less money to go around. See the attached article from Over The Cap. It is from 2015, so it is dated and since then Brady has won twice, Peyton once and of course Foles. But usually Superbowl winners have good QB's with lower caps hits.

I don't post that to make an argument that you should not sign players to big contracts. You have to keep core guys and that means paying them. But it does limit the cash to go around elsewhere for other needs and depth. If you are gonna pay someone, you better be getting some performance for that money. If you don't get the performance and your not drafting well....your screwed.
Over the cap - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: Foles played out of his mind  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 2/7/2018 9:46 am : link
In comment 13824843 AcesUp said:
Quote:
In comment 13824832 BigBlueDownTheShore said:


Quote:


In comment 13824826 AcesUp said:


Quote:


Statistically speaking, I think that was the strongest back to back conference championship/SB performance in NFL history. Now, I'm not saying that Foles is this stud franchise QB, but players get hot and Foles was on fire. It goes beyond scheme, were you watching some of his throws? Also, that was one playoff run and one stretch of games, let's see how the Eagles and Foles shake out over the next few seasons before we start having knee jerk reactions about blueprints.



The reason I think he played so well was the system. I don't think its any coincidence that he played extremely well in Spread offenses, and was just terrible in true traditional NFL systems.

The RPO's puts so much pressure on the defense and just puts defensive players in such a tough spot. It ends up opening so many more plays.



I'm sure it helped, but go back and watch some of those throws he was making. It's not like he had players running free. Look at that TD throw to Clement in the back of the endzone in triple coverage. He was absolutely on fire.


I agree it was a little bit of both. I am just saying if he was playing in a different system, I don't think he would have been nearly as successful. Being in an offense that he was successful in previously certainly helped him.
You can roll the dice on finding  
pjcas18 : 2/7/2018 9:48 am : link
a Russell Wilson or Tom Brady (or Nick Foles) every 4 years, and jettisonning them after their cheap contract or look more realistically at Super Bowl history and see the game is played by the Peyton Mannings, veteran Tom Brady (making cash), Drew Brees, Ben Roehtlisberger, Aaron Rodgers, Cam Newton, etc. more than it is by low cost QB's.

That type of approach (not spending on a QB), especially once that QB has been successful in their first 4 years gives you a better chance of winding up like the Brown, Bills, Jets, Dolphins (in QB hell) than it does of winding up like the 2017 Eagles.

besides this is not what Go Terps advocates for he wouldn't have drafted/traded up for Wentz.
Frankly...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/7/2018 9:49 am : link
it is too early to say with any certainty:

Quote:
The gimmick offense isn't going anywhere. Its extremely successful in the NCAA, and these type of players are everywhere.


Basing NFL success on college just doesn't hold historical water. It is tough to tell what sticks on a large scale and what has elements built into other offenses that morphs them. The 46 defense still has variations of it as staples today. Obviously the WCO and run and shoot too. The Wildcat? Basically already extinct.

Having any offense that has a read and react component has positives and negatives. The positives is that it allows decisions to be made on the fly and theoretically can react to anything the defense throws at you. The negatives are that you often need a QB who can make the right reads and decisions and it is an offensive "system", one that can handicap a team by forcing square pegs in round holes.

It would appear based on the number of NFL coaches going to spread formations and exploiting matchups that it will stay around. To what extent remains to be seen.
All I know is that Iím lucky  
UConn4523 : 2/7/2018 9:52 am : link
that GT pioneered these ideas and no team has tried it to date.
Execution was perfect  
NoPeanutz : 2/7/2018 9:57 am : link
and Foles seemed to make every throw. Brady was not as good, and even dropped the pass that Foles caught in the endzone.
Maybe it's because Foles awesome, but that is beside the point.
Philly had great personnel, excellent game plan, and did not let opportunity slip away.
The Eagles are in horrible cap shape...  
Chris684 : 2/7/2018 10:17 am : link
That doesnt exactly line up with Terps's theory on cap management. Now the period where "everyone eats" after winning the SB is just beginning. We saw it here when guys like Torbor, Wilson, Butler and Mitchell were getting solid offers elsewhere.

Graham is under contract but is going to want more money. Decisions have to be made on Peters, Sproles and some other notable vets.
RE: The Eagles are in horrible cap shape...  
Giantfan in skinland : 2/7/2018 10:24 am : link
In comment 13824934 Chris684 said:
Quote:
That doesnt exactly line up with Terps's theory on cap management. Now the period where "everyone eats" after winning the SB is just beginning. We saw it here when guys like Torbor, Wilson, Butler and Mitchell were getting solid offers elsewhere.

Graham is under contract but is going to want more money. Decisions have to be made on Peters, Sproles and some other notable vets.


Haven't spent any time looking at it, but I recall reading that while the Eagles are over the cap right now, they also have no major contracts upcoming. Their core is in place and under contract for basically the next 3-5 years. It's a well constructed team both in the present and for the immediate future. Giants have their work cut out for them.
Of course thereís multiple ways to win.  
Dave on the UWS : 2/7/2018 10:50 am : link
What they all have in common is good organizational structure and good coaching where good players are put in the right positions for success. Flexibility in approach to get the most out of players is the trick. Based on rep, this is Shurmurís MO. If the team took a LARGE jump in success next year, I would not be surprised. Thatís how poor a job I thought BM did.

From a GM perspective Reissís Inability to fix the OL in 6 yrs mixed with an increasingly immobile QB was the opposite of good structure.

We can see the difference with the Eagles when they got competent people running the show (particularly the HC). They were a shambles 2 yrs ago after Chip Kelly. They got their QB and got their lines stabilized.
(I strongly think the Giants will go the same route and they have the added
benefit of having Eli for a year or two to act as a bridge).
The SB announcers  
mrvax : 2/7/2018 11:23 am : link
stated that Pederson went back and looked at Foles success under Kelly. So he installed that RPO for Foles. It worked like magic.

Foles also had 2 things going for him. His poise in the SB was incredible for a guy who's never played in such an important game. The second thing was Foles was deadly accurate on almost every throw.
Wentz played like a franchise QB, then Foles played like a franchise  
PatersonPlank : 2/7/2018 11:33 am : link
QB. Seeing this I believe its not the QB but the system and the OL play. I can't believe Wentz in yr 2, and Foles who has been a decent starting QB, suddenly became elite? its the scheme, and the great OL play. This does dent the line that says you must have a top 3 QB to win.
RE: Wentz played like a franchise QB, then Foles played like a franchise  
UConn4523 : 2/7/2018 11:36 am : link
In comment 13825088 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
QB. Seeing this I believe its not the QB but the system and the OL play. I can't believe Wentz in yr 2, and Foles who has been a decent starting QB, suddenly became elite? its the scheme, and the great OL play. This does dent the line that says you must have a top 3 QB to win.


Your sample size is 1 team in 1 year. The larger size of the rest of the NFL says otherwise.
RE: Sure sounds like a blueprint for success  
old man : 2/7/2018 11:36 am : link
In comment 13824805 mattlawson said:
Quote:
Great OL
Great TEs
Very good WRs
Very good RBs
Very good QBs
Great play calling
Great execution


And a solid D front 7.
.  
arcarsenal : 2/7/2018 11:43 am : link
We're conveniently omitting the 13 weeks of MVP-caliber QBing they got from Carson Wentz to get them a bye and home field advantage to begin with.

Wentz is the Eagles QB, and when his rookie deal is up, you better believe they're going to want to keep him around.

Foles did an excellent job in his place in these playoff games, but let's not turn this into something it's not.
RE: Wentz played like a franchise QB, then Foles played like a franchise  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 2/7/2018 11:50 am : link
In comment 13825088 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
QB. Seeing this I believe its not the QB but the system and the OL play. I can't believe Wentz in yr 2, and Foles who has been a decent starting QB, suddenly became elite? its the scheme, and the great OL play. This does dent the line that says you must have a top 3 QB to win.


The more I think about it, the more New England is probably a better example. They have plugged and played many QBs into their system and they have been successful. Now it hasn't always been spread oriented, but certainly has been in the past few years.
The basis for sustained success by an NFL offense,  
BobR in Durham : 2/7/2018 11:56 am : link
no matter what the philosophy, is a good or at least competent OL. The Eagles have that.
RPO, WCO, etc. come and go. Defenses learn and adjust. Nonetheless, good OL play can overcome defensive adjustments regardless of strategy.
Fix the OL!
Eagles are 10 Million  
djstat : 2/7/2018 12:21 pm : link
Over the cap. Things won't be this perfect next year.
People always look at cap overages  
pjcas18 : 2/7/2018 12:22 pm : link
for the next year for your rivals and get excited.

but it's really not that hard to get under the cap.
does Philly run the same offense  
mdc1 : 2/7/2018 1:07 pm : link
Shurmer runs? Wonder if the Eagles will keep Foles?
RE: does Philly run the same offense  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 2/7/2018 1:17 pm : link
In comment 13825324 mdc1 said:
Quote:
Shurmer runs? Wonder if the Eagles will keep Foles?


Not exactly the same, but very similar.
RE: The key to using RPO  
Simms11 : 2/7/2018 8:14 pm : link
In comment 13824735 JonC said:
Quote:
is deception, if you get defenders on their heels for an extra blip, you can make the QBs job easier. By doing so, you can elevate a QB's performance and take some of the load off him ...

I'd still put my money on the blue chip QB though. While Eli has been huge in the biggest games, he's not been consistently worthy of his cap hit throughout his NFL career imo. I think this is the catalyst for Terps' reasoning, more than having nothing to do with a franchise QB and the cap hit.


Doesnít play action essentially do the same thing? Eli needs a real running game. Heís excelled at Play Action in the past.
There is no theory  
djm : 2/7/2018 9:47 pm : link
The way to win is stockpile as many good players as you can and then keep as many as you can. The best drafting teams ever still missed on at least half of their draft picks and even the hits get hurt. In other words you have to spend money on vets. Balance between the two. Then pray you get and stay lucky. George young actually said that last part. We have heard others say it too.
the qb is the hardest part to foresee or predict long term success  
djm : 2/7/2018 9:50 pm : link
And the toughest position to swap out every few years. You need stability and consistency at the position. So you're going to have to pay big bucks eventually. Even the average qbs get big bucks which of course doesn't stop many fans from going into shock with every new contract.

.  
arcarsenal : 2/7/2018 10:22 pm : link
I think the limited tape on Foles from this year before the playoffs actually turned into a big advantage for PHI.

ATL/MIN/NE likely would have had better gameplans defensively if Foles had been starting all season. And if Foles had been starting all season, they would not have won 13 games.

I've said this a few times now, but you really cannot understate how well coached the Eagles were - especially offensively.

People were completely burying Pederson during his first camp and saying he would be a horrendous hire - it turned out to be the exact opposite. He did an absolutely masterful job at installing game plans that maximized what Foles excels at.

This season was so much less about Nick Foles and so much more about what those coaches were able to do. They were innovative, they were smart, and they outcoached some really fucking good coaches. Period.

The only "model" people need to be trying to take from them is finding the best coaches available. Not cheaping out at the QB position.
Agree with Fatman  
Modus Operandi : 2/8/2018 3:54 am : link
I think Foles is a very good QB. Eagles are in an enviable situation. Two dry good QBs on low cost deals. Relatively speaking.

I don't think this proves any theory.
RE: RE: The key to using RPO  
JonC : 2/8/2018 8:18 am : link
In comment 13825907 Simms11 said:
Quote:
In comment 13824735 JonC said:


Quote:


is deception, if you get defenders on their heels for an extra blip, you can make the QBs job easier. By doing so, you can elevate a QB's performance and take some of the load off him ...

I'd still put my money on the blue chip QB though. While Eli has been huge in the biggest games, he's not been consistently worthy of his cap hit throughout his NFL career imo. I think this is the catalyst for Terps' reasoning, more than having nothing to do with a franchise QB and the cap hit.



Doesnít play action essentially do the same thing? Eli needs a real running game. Heís excelled at Play Action in the past.


Yes to all, it can help any QB gain an advantage.
RE: The SB announcers  
Thegratefulhead : 2/8/2018 1:15 pm : link
In comment 13825045 mrvax said:
Quote:
stated that Pederson went back and looked at Foles success under Kelly. So he installed that RPO for Foles. It worked like magic.

Foles also had 2 things going for him. His poise in the SB was incredible for a guy who's never played in such an important game. The second thing was Foles was deadly accurate on almost every throw.
YES, excellent post. This is what encourages me about Shurmur, I believe he going to look at his players and design an offense to their strengths.
RE: The SB announcers  
mrvax : 2/8/2018 8:17 pm : link
In comment 13826524 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:

YES, excellent post. This is what encourages me about Shurmur, I believe he going to look at his players and design an offense to their strengths.


This is allegedly how Belichick fields a consistently great team. Scheme to player not force player to scheme (McAdoo).
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